• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

I'm new be nice

I'm new be nice

Member
Psychoward said:
what the hell? did you even read what he wrote?
Click to expand...

Tinfoilhatsron said:
I was being cheeky with that comment but I don't understand what you are linking me. A deconstruction of how the evils of society are made? I'm not sure which parts or specific videos explain how a man needs a woman or a woman needs a man. (To be not evil I guess?) Or how that makes Frozen propaganda. If you still want discussion, I could be linked the specific video which makes such claims.

Edit: I see that he talks about the Bible on his website so I'm assuming that's where the claim comes from?
Click to expand...

Not the Bible necessarily. It's in part a deconstruction of the Bible from a psychological perspective, including other forms of art including Pinocchio, and the growth of man and his trials against order and chaos. One of the ideas he presents is that it is women who give men consciousness, or that they make men aware of themselves and their place in society and the world at large.

It's a lot to get into, and I wouldn't do it service in comparison to him, and I do think it's important to follow his logic from the start, not just from scattered quotes, you know?
 
T

Tinfoilhatsron

Banned
Alright since Erevador and Rabid Dwarf 76 are recommending this interview, I will respond directly to them.
Erevador said:
Peterson explains the research behind most of the claims made in the memo in GREAT technical detail in the second half of this conversation. A really good listen for people who have no idea where these claims comes from.
Click to expand...

Rabid Dwarf 76 said:
I found it very fascinating as well. Totally recommend watching it.
Click to expand...
First off, I want to dispute this claim, the second paragraph:
Erevador said:
That is not an accurate description of him or his work. He's not even really right wing. And he also referred to the MGTOW crowd as "pathetic weasels," so he's certainly no MRA. He referred to the Alt-Right, by the way, as "safe space culture on the scale of the nation." He sees it as likely to empower a totalitarian state. So you're completely misrepresenting him. He also talks endlessly about the horrors of Nazism and the holocaust, which wouldn't exactly endear him to the paranoid Jew-haters on the Alt-Right.

His views on gender are quite mainstream among those who accept the idea that evolution (evolutionary psychology) has an impact on human behavior, including on differences in outcomes between men and women. He's certainly no sexist, and he's explicated in great detail that men who blame their problems and insufficiencies on women are unbearable.

Your defamatory attack is totally wrong. If I were to try and categorize Peterson's political views, I would imagine they would match up more or less perfectly with the scientifically-minded classical liberalism of thinkers like Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt.
Click to expand...
Being against one or more negative aspects of the alt-right agenda does not excuse one from being a racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Your actions, or in this case words, should be evidence enough. One could be against men who try and blame problems on men but if they turn around and say women are inferior for X, Y, and Z then one could still be catgorized as a sexist.

Now onto the interview:

First off, this interview has 0 substance until the 30 min mark. Of a 50 minute interview. Which then we will start off with this quote:
Interview said:
...And you know it's also very interesting to look at the U.S. labor stance on gender differences in occupations you know because it's so funny to watch the radical feminists only go after the high status occupations like a hundred percent of bricklayers are men.
[00:35:26] We don't hear not being being complained about. And of course men occupy most of the outside jobs. They move more and they will get more dangerous jobs as well. So so these are all factors that are relevant but completely undiscussed as far as I can tell by the sort of the ideological types that would be going after you.
Click to expand...
This is incredibly shallow and in fact incorrect. Feminists have been advocating that women should enter the construction industry for quite a while now and Peterson's comment doesn't explain the problems that women face within the industry which lead to this skew towards men. (Ex. Sexism in the workplace ironically) Nor does it explain the percieved notion that construction is a 'Man's Job'. The US Labor statistics also show women at 9.1% in the construction industry up from years past. Also poor and minority women have stepped up for construction jobs in an under the table manner.
Sources:

Boston Globe
The Guardian
US Department of Labor

Second, Peterson gives vague unsorced comments about studies. Which Scandinavian studies is he speaking about? He talks about women not wanting to work 60 to 80 hour work weeks in the legal field (and just in general apparently) but doesn't point where either. (And ignores the fact that women do work those hours in those and other areas such as Nursing)

Where is the "great technical detail" so far?


I'll tackle the rest tommorrow. TBC.

Edit: The 2 links did not work for some reason. Will fix.
 
C

Calabi

Member
Erevador said:
He doesn't criticize transgender people. He criticizes attempts by those who claim to speak on their behalf to use the force of law to compel the use of certain words when discussing the nature of reality. How is that a "criticism of transgender people?"

He has no desire to restrict the rights of transgender people. Obviously. He simply rejects dictatorial speech codes. He's spoken of receiving many letters from transgender people who agree with him.

Have you seen his speech before the Canadian senate? He outlined his views on this issue in great detail, and I can't imagine how you could view that and still conclude that he was arguing a "criticism of transgender people."
Click to expand...

See this is how the clever ones work. If your going to make an impact and effect people, you have to be subtle and work around the edges. Never come out and say your against something just say your against the little details some ancillary thing that can have larger effects down the road.

You have to be careful when criticising them because they never fully say it or never fully outline what they really mean or want.

Its so fucking predictable, a hundred times these arguments go the same way. "When did they say this, when did they say that, they never said this nor that". The defence is in the details their arguments are between the lines. You have to be really careful when arguing with them.

They try and use misdirection and to sideline you down pointless tracks where they win one small argument, and your so focused on this small thing you miss the whole argument and the audience thats watching thinks they've won.
 
C

cubicle47b

Member
Hackworth said:
Lmao, one of the scientists this dude supposedly referenced can't believe he misinterpreted their research this badly. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/google-fires-engineer-over-anti-diversity-memo
Click to expand...
Schmitt told WIRED that while this isn't his area of expertise, the assumptions made by Damore were unwise. "We should rely on rigorous evidence for making claims in this area. And I believe there is good evidence of both sexism (including sex stereotypes) and real psychological sex differences (some of which may be evolved) to be causes of the gender gaps across occupations," he said.

"Both can be true, and we need much better evidence to know what percentage of the gender gap is caused by each. To make matters worse, it's likely that psychological sex differences and sex stereotypes are interrelated, feeding off of one another in complex ways over historical time, and over developmental time as children grow up. There are no simple answers here."
Click to expand...
I mean, yeah, totally agree.
 
C

cubicle47b

Member
Tinfoilhatsron said:
The US Labor statistics also show women at 9.1% in the construction industry up from years past. Also poor and minority women have stepped up for construction jobs in an under the table manner.
Click to expand...
I agree that feminists care about representation in other areas besides tech (just to get that out of the way). But where do you get 9.1%?

https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

Construction and extraction occupations as a whole are at 3%.
Construction laborers at 3.5%.
Brickmasons at .5%.
Helpers, construction trades are at 6.2%, but that's the best I can find.
 
O

Orbis Tabula

Member
Hasphat'sAnts said:
I know Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias are ridiculed as "neoliberal shills" around these parts, but this week's episode of Weeds on Vox tore this guy a new one.

It was a really good podcast.
Click to expand...

Are they really? I've never really seen them get that around here. Moreso on Twitter.

Regardless, yeah, it was a good episode.
 
S

Sianos

Member
superbeau said:
God Sianos, how could you stand watching those two wank each other for that long with nothing of substance said.
Click to expand...
Thankfully, I had a transcript to read instead, or else I probably would have had to sit through that more than once to find anything specific and relevant to the topic to address that was different than the points we've already addressed.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
NPR referenced this guy today in a segment on how some colleges are finding ways to increase the number of female computer science majors.

A Google engineer who got fired over a controversial memo that criticized the company's diversity policies said that there might be biological reasons there are fewer women engineers. But top computer science schools have proven that a few cultural changes can increase the number of women in the field.

In 2006, only about 10 percent of computer science majors at Harvey Mudd College were women. That's pretty low since Harvey Mudd is a school for students who are interested in science, math and technology. Then, Maria Klawe began her tenure as president of the college.
Click to expand...

And then, Klawe says, the college also had to address the fact that a lot of women were intimidated by male students who showed off in class. Many had done some programming in high school and they would dominate discussion.

So, they created a second intro course for students who had no previous experience. Klawe says that it took away the "intimidation that comes of being a class where you've had no prior experience and somebody else has been programming since they were eight."
Click to expand...

Harvey Mudd's intro computer class became among the school's most popular. And now, instead of 10 percent in any given year, the number of women computer science majors ranges between 40 percent and 50 percent.
Click to expand...
 
K

KibblesBits

Member
Is anyone HONESTLY surprised at how this has all played out in this thread or are people still trying to give him the benefit of the doubt? Also, oh dear at all the banned.
 
W

watershed

Banned
Somnid said:
Looks like they cancelled the town hall meeting because people were afraid of being harassed: https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/10/16128518/google-town-hall-meeting-canceled-online-harassment

I'm not sure why they couldn't just do anonymous questions (bowing to alt-right pressure helps no one) but anyway, this thing has this thing has quickly escalated from an internal dumpster fire to a 3 alarm public harassment campaign.
Click to expand...

Ugh, this stuff is disgusting. Google clearly has a culture problem and it's not women and people of color harassing right wing Googlers. It's right wing Googlers purposefully leaking internal conversations without even redacting people's names and pictures, instigating harassment campaigns from conservative assholes. But I'm sure there are white men who feel they are the true victims at Google!
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
BUYDVhX.png


Corny
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the leaked screenshots are things Damore saved himself. I imagine some employees had already been complaining internally. It seems likely he'd be the type to engage in doxxing when he doesn't get his way.
 
D

Darryl M R

Member
Anyone want to make an avatar bet that he will follow, RT, or tweet at a former game journalist gone political YouTuber making that sweet Patreon money from bigots and losers?
 
C

cpp_is_king

Member
M

mugurumakensei

Member
Darryl M R said:
Anyone want to make an avatar bet that he will follow, RT, or tweet at a former game journalist gone political YouTuber making that sweet Patreon money from bigots and losers?
Click to expand...

He's already retweeting Dana Rohrabacher and Mike Cernovich.

It really drives home the point that this was disingenuous BS from the start. Just another alt-right shitheel who probably wasn't getting the raises/promotions he wanted because women/minorities who are probably just as talented as him or more so as well as other white dudes who were more personable kept getting them. In the end, this is his about his hatred of minorities and women for his own failures.
 
S

Sianos

Member
"fired4truth"

James Damore has nothing to say on any field of psychology, as evidenced by the fact that his sole piece of evidence is to reiterate the names of traits from a nearly fifty year old theory that's become pop psych. He is the face of mediocre people who think they are insightful. The face of someone who thinks they have it all figured out but demonstrably do not, someone who won't put in the work to create compelling arguments but sure will bluster about how underappreciated he is. The face of spending fifty minutes talking about how he wished other, more driven, individuals could defend the status quo so he doesn't have to.

He wasn't fired for truth, because he couldn't even manage a coherent message besides vaguely gesturing about how women are neurotic and can't handle stress.
 
S

Sianos

Member
mlclmtckr said:
On the plus side, Sargon got banned from Twitter today

On the minus side, this asshole is apparently ready to take his place!
Click to expand...
oh shit nice

Damore seems to following Sargon's tradition of not being willing to do research for more than Five Minutes before going on the record.
 
T

Telosfortelos

Advocate for the People
Today's The Gist is a good take on the memo:
https://soundcloud.com/thegist/about-the-google-memo

I wish I had time to pull quotes. Lots of sound arguments about why the small bits of truth in the memo give some the impression that the arguments are substantiated, even if they don't hold up.

Mike Pesca would be considered a moderate around here, but he's a liberal in values that sometimes disagrees* with the majority of progressives in fact and policy. I was really curious what his take would be.
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
Telosfortelos said:
Today's The Gist is a good take on the memo:
https://soundcloud.com/thegist/about-the-google-memo

I wish I had time to pull quotes. Lots of sound arguments about why the small bits of truth in the memo give some the impression that the arguments are substantiated, even if they don't hold up.

Mike Pesca would be considered a moderate around here, but he's a liberal in values that sometimes agrees with the majority of progressives in fact and policy. I was really curious what his take would be.
Click to expand...

This is a pretty good take on the situation.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
So...before I just read the cliffnotes version of this dude's memo, but now I read the whole thing. This dude seems to go out of his way to cover his ass, consistently saying that he's not against diversity, that White people certainly have not had a harder time dealing with life than minorities, and such. But his "solutions" are basically to...eliminate all the current programs Google has for diversifying its workforce. There seems to be some bizarre, twisted logic where he seems to be arguing that removing these programs that promote diversity will some end up increasing diversity, which was his whole fucking problem in the first place.

And this is the main thing I don't get about this stupid conversation we're having. Google's decision to hire more women and minorities wasn't the result of government policies. This was Google management making a decision based on what they felt was the direction they wanted to take the company. Whether they did it because they legitimately think it's a noble thing to do, or if they did it just to get good PR, the fundamental result is the same. What this nimrod seems to be arguing is that Google is somehow being compelled to do this by some outside force. We've already established that this outside force is not the government, which means that the only thing this force must be is...holy shit, the FREE MARKET!

Yet, if you read this clown's memo/manifesto, he makes it sound like that's not the case. That they're still being compelled by non-free market forces, and by somehow being more free market (which again, how the fuck is this supposed to work?) everything will be hunky dory because supposedly more minorities will be hired because they're actually qualified, as opposed to the ones that are there right now.
 
H

hammysaurusrex

Member
It's always amusing to me watching people get themselves twisted over if the neuroscience and psychology literature agrees or disagrees with the assessment that biological differences exist between the sexes, as if that somehow alone confirms a particular worldview.

Even in the studies that detect differences, the difference between groups is generally far below the differences within groups. I can't believe so much energy is being spent on the ecological fallacy.
 
R

R0ckman

Member
Any way google could have prevented him "martyring" himself when firing him? Seems he eased right into it. A statement debunking him perhaps? Kind of hard to roll out the "truther" card if the boot exposes the nonsense as it kicks him out the door.
 
O

Ozigizo

Member
R0ckman said:
Any way google could have prevented him "martyring" himself when firing him? Seems he eased right into it. A statement debunking him perhaps? Kind of hard to roll out the "truther" card if the boot exposes the nonsense as it kicks him out the door.
Click to expand...

No. They'd only have been able to stop it if the memo had never released. The alt-right will cling to any sort of mainstream hate speech.

Even if they had released a follow up, it'd be deemed fake by them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DOJ Sues Google for Monopolizing Digital Advertising.. Seeks To Break It Up
25
2K
Yoda replied
Activision To Pay About $50 Mn To Settle Lawsuit: Report
17
1K
Salty Popsicle replied
Discord is laying off 17% of employees | In an internal memo, CEO Jason Citron said the company grew headcount too quickly over the past few years
News
1
677
Cyberpunkd replied
IGN: Ubisoft Montreal is currently in Turmoil
Game Dev 2 3 4 5 6
290
19K
Reaseru replied
Cheddar: Activision Blizzard First Diversity Report Shows Continuing Lack of Gender Representation
2 3
136
8K
Thirty7ven replied
Top Bottom