TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Yes, why else would you run around in a crowd dress like a clown?
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Group wants anti-harassment policy at Comic-Con
- Thread starter Exile20
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Yes, why else would you run around in a crowd dress like a clown?
I think It's a tricky one to uphold. Mainly because at a large con there are going to be people taking pictures of basically everything however, at times, and I'm afraid I cannot speak from experience, I'm sure it will be obvious when someone is taking an inappropriate picture.
In fact I'd like to ask here, how does everyone think It would be best to identify this kind of behaviour against regular photography? I'm sure at times it would be obvious but at other times be harmless or say somebody was in the background of another photograph or something like that.
In fact I'd like to ask here, how does everyone think It would be best to identify this kind of behaviour against regular photography? I'm sure at times it would be obvious but at other times be harmless or say somebody was in the background of another photograph or something like that.
Some people feel empowered when they dress up as their favorite characters. Others do it for the sheer joy of being a part of their favorite sci fi/fantasy world.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
And they don't need other people, in this case the crowds at these cons to "ping" off of?
Seems like the difference between signing for yourself and signing in front of a crowd and saying the crowd plays no part.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Are we really going to get into "they asked for it" or "they like the attention anyway" sorts of things now? Can we agree that they're not asking for anything of anyone?
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Yeah because that's what I'm implying dude.
Despite not agreeing with you in your original assertion that they're doing it for attention, I'll ask you this: is that attention for their body or for their costume-making skills?
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
So by me saying "Yes, why else would you run around in a crowd dress like a clown?" what I really meant was yes "these girls deserve having strangers run up and grope them for the way they dress"?
Why not both, or either or? What is wrong with attention?
Devolution
Member
So it seems like there is some conflation about various photography angles but it's pretty clear what needs to be done
1) Clear and concise rules about what behavior will be tolerated and what repercussions will result from not following the guidelines.
2) Actual vetted security. No more of this cheap labor via perks given to volunteers. The big events should be past this.
3) Signage reinforcing what will be expected of attendees.
4) Some kind of dialogue about how photography will be handled at future events.
The fact that these things even need to be hashed out or discussed this much and they haven't been addressed for decades is just pathetic. This is a huge event full of industry professionals and fans. Get your shit together already and do what needs to be done to keep attendees safe and free from harassment.
1) Clear and concise rules about what behavior will be tolerated and what repercussions will result from not following the guidelines.
2) Actual vetted security. No more of this cheap labor via perks given to volunteers. The big events should be past this.
3) Signage reinforcing what will be expected of attendees.
4) Some kind of dialogue about how photography will be handled at future events.
The fact that these things even need to be hashed out or discussed this much and they haven't been addressed for decades is just pathetic. This is a huge event full of industry professionals and fans. Get your shit together already and do what needs to be done to keep attendees safe and free from harassment.
Hear, hear.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Me, I always ask before taking a picture, and then I smile and say thank, and be on my way.
Boom, just that simple.
Boom, just that simple.
That ranges from 0-100% to 100-0%. There are certainly people that are 100% there for, say, possibly getting a modeling contract. There are people on the other pole. There are also a whole bunch of people in between.
I don't think any of these suggestions would be a problem.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Just to clarify something, I think it's prudent to not come across as overly naive and expect that anyone wearing practically any costume at all probably welcomes some attention. For instance, as a dude who is about twenty pounds overweight, I know that I have nothing to fear in regards of unwanted sexual attention. But I also know that even the lamest Batman costume I could muster (all black clothing with a lame mask and a bat logo on my shirt) is going to make some people take notice. If I just wanted to blend in and not attract attention whatsoever, I'd wear the clothes I would any other day of the week (which is what I did when I went to the local Comic-Con).
But "expect some attention" is not an "anything goes" invitation for all forms of attention one might lavish on an attractive person. Someone wearing a sexy outfit doesn't reduce them to a sexual prop.
But "expect some attention" is not an "anything goes" invitation for all forms of attention one might lavish on an attractive person. Someone wearing a sexy outfit doesn't reduce them to a sexual prop.
You know, I think it's hard not to draw attention if this is your "costume": http://www.tested.com/art/makers/46...y-gallery-750-photos/item/comic_con_2014_777/
Found that off the cosplay thread next door. I mean... I'm actually surprised that this was considered an ok thing to "wear". Can't see any form of body suit on here either...
It's not ok to have non-consensual touching, but don't expect to NOT be ogled at or have photos of or anything. It can still attract... creepy people, I'm sure. Like a magnet.
Found that off the cosplay thread next door. I mean... I'm actually surprised that this was considered an ok thing to "wear". Can't see any form of body suit on here either...
It's not ok to have non-consensual touching, but don't expect to NOT be ogled at or have photos of or anything. It can still attract... creepy people, I'm sure. Like a magnet.
Devolution
Member
Or how about we stop telling people what to expect because they're in cosplay and just shame/kick out the creepy assholes?
Well if security catches them or people complain, then yeah. There's kind of a lot of attendees to really keep their eye out on everyone. Still, that costume is a lot less than a slave Leia. How less does a costume have to be before it's considered indecent and not ok for a public place? Actually showing off parts?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The more important indecencies to me are the creeps who ruin things for everyone because they have boners.
So almost naked girl = ok, guys being aroused by said almost naked girl because of boner = indecent? Gotcha.
I don't get it.
Steve Youngblood
Member
If Comic-Con (or wherever that is) wants to rule that as indecent and demand she put on more clothing, they're within their rights to do so. But if someone wearing that is allowed on the show floor, she deserves as much right to not be harassed as any other guest in attendance.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
If you had to choose, which one would you put in front of your child?
But it doesn't matter because I don't think many regular people would care if they added "no nudity" to the dress code, if it already isn't there. Let's add "no creeps" in some fashion, too.
SocksForWoks
Banned
Increase awareness and punishment for unwanted groping, that is fair.
But otherwise people are going to be taking pictures of everything, so no foul there.
But otherwise people are going to be taking pictures of everything, so no foul there.
And I agree with that. I mean, I guess if a worker saw her, they do decide what is acceptable or not. I'm a little surprised, but either way it is up to them, ultimately. No one should be harassed, but in a group of people of that size, I'm not in the least bit surprised. Creeps are out there, and women wearing stuff like that should be aware that these things COULD come up and happen. Not that it should, but realistically speaking it still does. Just like how people can make such comments on people wearing something a little more scantily clad in public. It happens.
I don't know I just like posting that.
That woman keeps wearing the same costume all the time. I guess it's her favorite. She must've gotten over the whole complaining on facebook thing cause she's still wearing the same thing.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Nah, most forms of this aren't cool, either.
I think I'm realizing within this conversation it's mostly been "it should be like this" people vs "it's like this, deal with it" people. What does "deal with it" do for anyone, though? Why sit on our hands about something objectively unnecessary to our society? Let's do what we can to stop creepy bullshit.
I don't know I just like posting that.
That woman keeps wearing the same costume all the time. I guess it's her favorite. She must've gotten over the whole complaining on facebook thing cause she's still wearing the same thing.
Zero Suit Samus, I assume?
I didn't say it was, but it exists and happens. No one is going to change those people's minds either.
Devolution
Member
I want to add that unless there already is one, each of these cons should have a blacklist and they should be interfacing with other cons about theirs. Also a blacklist would be a hell of a lot more kosher if written up by a neutral security team whose only focus is the safety of attendees and not some volunteer staff with all kinds of other motives.
But again, this would have to come about after some real reorganizing and professional handling of these events. As it is now, it's just amateur hour.
But again, this would have to come about after some real reorganizing and professional handling of these events. As it is now, it's just amateur hour.
1. That costume isn't even showing anything
2. That costume is about as "provocative" as wearing a bikini
3. What the hell?!
1. No it's not, but just about.
2. I'd say less than a bikini.
3. You can't say that guys in a crowd that big wouldn't stare at that. I'm not sure what's to get when someone in a place with lots of people would end up getting ogled lustfully by someone. You think it wouldn't happen? Something like that directs the eyes and attracts people to it. Not everyone is a good person to just look and go "hey that's a nice costume!"
Steve Youngblood
Member
I also think it's worth establishing that -- and I could be mistaken here -- I think most of us would agree that it's ok to notice and look at someone wearing a sexy costume. I don't think it's exactly a thin line between "my eyes work and as such will be drawn to a costume like that" and the type of person that is accused of behaving creepily. We are all (mostly at least) adults here. We need not pretend to not have sex drives. But that doesn't excuse behavior that would suggest having never seen an attractive person in public before.
There's a difference between a quick glance and straight up "BLARRRRR BOOBIES".
Yes, exactly.
Devolution
Member
Honestly this is what frustrates me most about these threads. There is this air of willful ignorance about what it means to harass, stalk and generally creep on people.
That's how I feel. People are going to look, but don't act like a creep when you do it.
And I agree on this too. Not everyone knows how to act properly in public though, unfortunately with certain drives getting the best of people.
Once again I am not making a case that it's ok that these people are doing what they do, but people should be aware that these guys do exist with their inexcusable acts. Not that you should think of it as a risk factor when you put on few clothes or whatever, but the fact that it is a large populated public event, and well you'll need to know where security is to go to if an issue pops up, means that there still is issues and society and not everyone is suited to follow proper etiquette of the public. People can act on impulses and sometimes things can give them more of a push. It's sad, but bad people are out there. Heck, I've already heard of an abduction from people meeting up at a con, along of tales from sharing hotels and harassment.
It would be nice if it was the safest place to be in, but only so much can be done :/
In so far as I can tell... people just need to be classier about their objectification.
"Nice costume" at a girl with a revealing costume could easily imply a wink wink nudge nudge. It can also imply 'nice costume'.
"Nice tits"... not so much.
I guess the objective would be to put yourself in the shoes of the cosplayer and think: "Is the kind of attention I'm receiving a sign of a somewhat unhinged mind?"
If it is... then you need to rethink your course of action.
This video is a good example of what I mean:
http://jezebel.com/this-is-how-men-react-to-being-catcalled-by-a-woman-1558156441
She's not unattractive - but if you were to be accosted by her on the street with that sort of attention... you might feel like you were been accosted by a crazy lady that might kill you after she's had her way with you.
"Nice costume" at a girl with a revealing costume could easily imply a wink wink nudge nudge. It can also imply 'nice costume'.
"Nice tits"... not so much.
I guess the objective would be to put yourself in the shoes of the cosplayer and think: "Is the kind of attention I'm receiving a sign of a somewhat unhinged mind?"
If it is... then you need to rethink your course of action.
This video is a good example of what I mean:
http://jezebel.com/this-is-how-men-react-to-being-catcalled-by-a-woman-1558156441
She's not unattractive - but if you were to be accosted by her on the street with that sort of attention... you might feel like you were been accosted by a crazy lady that might kill you after she's had her way with you.
I mean... yeah. Women in sexy cosplay do know that these things could happen, and cons are likely to have a disproportionate number of people that don't know how to act properly in public.
This is entirely the point.
The group from the OP wants a clear and well-publicized harassment policy. This is in part so that women who are harassed know what actions can be taken and that the con will stand behind them, and in part so that the people who don't know how to act properly in public will know what constitutes harassment and will know not to do it. Ditto the advisory against surreptitious photography, though that was someone else.
The arguments you're making are the reason for the proposals from the OP.
But obviously "we're all adults and know how to behave in public" doesn't apply to everyone, or this wouldn't be a problem. And the thing that worries me personally is I don't know what I look like to other people. I don't know when I come across as normal and when I come across as creepy.
So I worry. I worry about where my eyes are when I walk down the street, whether that girl noticed my double- or triple-take and got creeped out by it, etc.
I think movements like this are important, and I hope they gain traction, but at the same time I can empathize with the backlash because articles like this make me feel uncomfortable. They make me wonder when I've inadvertently offended people. And they make me worry about doing so the next time I go out. I don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of creepiness, so I can't really identify with that side of the argument, but I do know what it's like to be fearful of how I come across.
And I never did disagree with the OP. My first post was with the complaints of harassment, I was surprised that the woman in that photo was pretty borderline indecent, and surprised that it was allowed. But I guess if she wasn't kicked out, there was no issue to be made.
The rest of my posts were in reply to everyone that seemed to think I was saying it was ok that harassment goes on, but I spoke in a realistic matter that these things do happen, especially when people are wearing more revealing clothes. It shouldn't be ok, but not every guy out there is mature.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think if you care enough to try to be cognizant of how your actions affect people, you're probably not part of the problem. Again, I don't think you need to feel awful for reflexively raising an eyebrow and being an aroused by an attractive human being's sexy attire. You're a healthy adult. They know people are going to look. You're fine.
The kind of behavior that puts people off is when it's assumed that dressing like this makes them a slut, or a whore, or a... I could go on. But the reality is that at the end of the day, that is just another person that has every bit as much right to be there as you without being reduced to being a sexual prop. And while you can't completely police immaturity, the ideal here is that if we have to choose between forbidding costumes that are "too sexy" or trying to curtail behavior from men that most people would agree is egregious*, and rather tackle the latter issue than the former.
*I understand that this is vague and allows room for interpretation. I'm just clarifying here that I'm not suggesting that we leave it open to a situation wherein any woman can point a finger at anybody and accuse them of being a creep and see them instantly tossed out like Jazz from the Banks mansion. But as a simple, classic example to defer to Seinfeld (as I often like to do), be more like Jerry and less like George (although I personally would have probably forgone the nudge myself): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbsmbCWUNEE
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
This feels so close to the Stephen A Smith story.
maybe if the cosplayers stopped being treated in such a way it'd help?
Holy shit that's awful.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
maybe if the cosplayers stopped being treated in such a way it'd help?
Who's that? That's just a disgusting angle to work from...
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