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I don't understand how you're supposed to play Sonic games.

Rogue-likes are basically an entire genre of memorization and repetition... and there's also old arcade games like Donkey Kong, which are pattern based and essentially perfected via just memorizing layouts and repeating them over and over.

There's nothing inherently bad game design about repetition and memorization.

If there's one big insight I've picked up from the Sonic veterans here who had the patience to explain how they understood the Genesis games, it's that I should be treating the branching level structure like Star Fox. Made a mistake and missed the branch you wanted? Live with it, take the run as far as you can, keep the spot in mind when you come back another day.

This is really not obvious if you come into Sonic expecting it to work like most other 2D platformers, where if something catches your eye, or if you think you missed something important, you can stop, decide not to go for speed this time around, and check it carefully. (The one and only thing about SMB1 that has kind of aged poorly is the inability to ever scroll the screen left.) It's exactly the kind of change in mindset that provides a helpful context for trying to get into the game. I'm substantially more inclined to give Sonic Mania a try now that I can take that context in with me and see if it makes the experience better.

There's more than one kind of memorization, and people who react badly to memory-based difficulty are usually only talking about a particular type. Whether memorization-based design seems fair has an awful lot to do with alternatives, contingencies, safety nets, and second chances—how soon you get them, or whether you get them at all.

I think a lot of players like myself get that sense of "doing it wrong" in Sonic as it's expressly against our platforming instincts to accept the mentality of "Missed it? Move on." When other games do this, it's confined to a few select auto-scroll stages at most, and it's made clear from the moment the stage begins scrolling that this is the mentality to take. It prepares you for the dread of missing things on the first pass. Perhaps the issue is that Sonic doesn't quite prepare you for this because, without an auto-scroll, you expect (from the conventions of other games) to feel at liberty to set the pace.
 

RRockman

Banned
It depends on how exacting a game's challenges can be. If you're just brute forcing a level or checkpoint until you've nailed down a very specific set of inputs that'll defeat a boss, then I'd argue that can deliver a hollow sense of satisfaction - let's call it relief.

But if the game is giving you a firm-but-fair challenge whereby you're giving enough leeway to be flexible about tackling a super-hard boss, and it's more about your own mastery of the physics and adapting to different situations, I think that's a lot more satisfying.

A good example would be to look at a "Nintendo-made" hard Mario level (let's say the special worlds in NSMB U or Wii) to one of those "super-hard" levels in Mario Maker. There was a good comment on Eurogamer about this actually:


Now as for Sonic, that's not the same thing of course. It's important to note that Sonic level design isn't exacting in the same context since it's not a linear route. You only brute-force a Sonic level to become proficient at it over time, which isn't the same thing. The question is whether players find that satisfying or not, or whether it's a hollow means of mastery.

Indeed. And after playing many of them, and finding joy in discovering a new faster path I didn't even realize was there through exploration I find it immensely satisfing. I'd argue Sonic is the firm but fair type of challenge too, since if your only goal is to get to the end no matter the time, there's usually 3 or 4 ways to get there.
 

VariantX

Member
The Idea is to replay the levels and master them. Collecting 100 rings give you extra lives and affects end of round bonuses. The faster you get to the end the better your time bonuses are. You're essentially looking for the fastest path to allow to get the most out of a level. Special stages can net you chaos emeralds, and continues . collect all 7 for the true ending.
 

gelf

Member
There are not many classic 2D platformers that you can't get the most enjoyment out of on the first play through of a level. Memorization and repetition is not a good basis for level design.

Personally I'd find that a bit disappointing if my first play though of a platformer was the most enjoyable one. Gaining mastery of levels and mechanics is a great deal of the enjoyment I get out of video games. That's not going to happen on a first run of a level.
 
Indeed. And after playing many of them, and finding joy in discovering a new faster path I didn't even realize was there through exploration I find it immensely satisfing. I'd argue Sonic is the firm but fair type of challenge too, since if your only goal is to get to the end no matter the time, there's usually 3 or 4 ways to get there.

Sonic's an odd one since you can stumble your way through most levels on your first go and beat the game, but to feel proficient at it you really do need to brute-force the level until you're familiar with all the branching paths and routes, and enemy locations. Knowing that information then feeds back into how you play the game, whether or where you decide to spin boost and so on.

Because you're pinballed around each stage it's hard to make a mental map of a level naturally, as you're forced to put your brain on autopilot as far as navigation goes. I do like how there are moments in levels where you're given a chance to explore a little or maybe you'll see a bonus stage entry point above or below you...but at the same time it's very easy to be pushed off in a direction with no way to return without seeing it coming.

There are definitely moments where Sonic doesn't offer a firm-but-fair challenge though - those are when you're being pinballed around without knowing it, or when you're boosted into an enemy or a trap, or when you fall into a pit of death without learning it was there first. The game isn't characterised by this at least which is important. But it becomes a more or less important part of the experience depending on how you approach it.
 

Ponchito

Member
Wow, yesterday I was struggling so much with this game. This morning I blazed through stages 2 and 3.

I can't understand how would someone memorize this mazes that are the levels. On stage 2 I was struggling with some purple water and the next time I went through the level I didn't even pass through that place.

Anyways, fun game.
 

LAA

Member
Tbh had similar thoughts trying Mania yesterday.
Got stuck on the 2nd level already, kept drowning in the chemical water.
Usually I'm someone who wants to explore/collect everything in a level, but with this it feels the map is either too big or no map to help to get an idea of whats left to explore, or you're going too fast you can't freely move whether you want easily.
 

hzsn724

Member
Well I think you're just overthinking it. If you never played them as a kid then you probably think every gem, coin, animal, enemy.. matters but they don't. It's about just flowing with the game. If you bounce off a wall and go spinning, you're just supposed to go with it. Just getting to the end of each level and beating the boss is the fun.
 
Personally I'd find that a bit disappointing if my first play though of a platformer was the most enjoyable one. Gaining mastery of levels and mechanics is a great deal of the enjoyment I get out of video games. That's not going to happen on a first run of a level.


I know some people feel this way, but why does it stop at platformers for you? Most genres would be widely panned if you had to repeat parts of the game to get the most enjoyment out of it. Look at the criticism that Dark Souls II got for having to memorize portions of it's enemy placement/level design.
 
Personally I'd find that a bit disappointing if my first play though of a platformer was the most enjoyable one. Gaining mastery of levels and mechanics is a great deal of the enjoyment I get out of video games. That's not going to happen on a first run of a level.

It probably depends on how you approach games and what and how you expect to master them.

You could easily argue that Sonic does in fact provide an enjoyable experience first time round if you're a player who doesn't want to replay levels many times to memorise routes and enemy positions, for instance. If you don't care about nailing down a perfect route later there's still enough to enjoy (though in an aimless way since there's so much ground to cover in each level).
 

orioto

Good Art™
The beauty of all that is that there is now a long term sonic cycle.

_Sonic release
_dozen of years of Sonic betrayals = "give me my sonic back!!"
_2017 > Finally a true to the original Sonic is released = "Wait, so that's Sonic ? But i don't like it!"
 
I'm from the camp that asserts Sonic was never great (I'll give you good, but not great), so take this as you will, but the shoot-from-the-hip defensiveness and condescension in this thread has gone a long, long way towards persuading me that maybe people aren't joking when they say the fan base is the worst thing about this series.

Since many of you clearly decided to read the thread title as uncharitably as possible and hit Reply without thinking—gotta go fast, right?—I think it's worth emphasizing that a lot of scepticism or befuddlement towards Sonic comes from players who are otherwise very experienced at 2D platformers, particularly from the Nintendo school of design. In a way it's not all that helpful to lump all of them into a single genre (a mistake people still make in spades with "Metroidvania") and I think the diversity of side-scroller design, and the unique design personality afforded each distinct IP, was a lot clearer in the SNES/Genesis era when this format was the biggest game in town. The question here isn't how to get through the stages from left to right, but how to have fun doing it, and I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking that Sonic sends mixed messages about how to get the most out of reading the stages and exploring them. That's certainly how I felt on returning to the Genesis games on the Wii VC as a significantly more experienced and design-literate player than I was back when the Nintendo/Sega rivalry was at its peak.

With this in mind, I appreciate the posts that actually try to break down the arcade design philosophy underlying Sonic and answer the question of what kind of mindset it takes to not only play the games but enjoy them. The thing about Sonic is that there is this massive discontinuity between the two separate experiences of speeding through the environment and plodding around if you run into spikes, a lack of gradation along a spectrum from one end to the other that makes these experiences feel like one game instead of two (with one of them, the slow one, leaving a strong and encumbering impression that you are doing it wrong). It's like the Baby Mario sequences in Yoshi's Island, except all the time—either you're in the flow or you're stumbling. So it's illuminating, and important for the sake of conversation, to look into whether Sonic benefits from a different approach in terms of how to read the stage, because forming a mental map of the layout certainly doesn't work the same way it does in a Mario game, where you can do it all in one brisk pass.

DKC is a good point of comparison here, not least because the original game's reputation has faded in its own right, only for the series to come back in exceptional form. DKCTF is the game I hold up as the king of speedy momentum-driven platformers, and a lot of it comes down to two things: (a) the mechanical continuity between the slow, exploratory experience with your eyes peeled for every secret and the frantic speed-run route where every enemy and stage element is like a boost pad; and (b) the quality, shared with Mario, that if your mastery of the mechanics is good, you always, always have a chance to read the screen and react no matter how fast you are going, even in an apparent move-or-die stage like the notorious Bopopolis. In my experience with the original Sonic games, you don't really get that same window of reaction conjoining the fast and slow game and letting you swap smoothly from one to the other. The skills at mentally mapping out a stage layout that you might cultivate in a Nintendo platformer aren't really transferable.

So either you bounce off the design philosophy—I sure did, and so have many others by the looks of it—or you find another way into it, like an RPG packrat adjusting to a game designed around aggressively spending consumables or breaking weapons. And if there is another way into Sonic, a more pleasurable way, it's useful to know what that is. I'm surely not the only one here in the position of contemplating taking a chance on Sonic Mania despite never really clicking with the series before, and this is practically the only way to inform the decision.

I'd like to fall for a Sonic game for once, and this one looks like it has a real shot, but from my lukewarm experience with the originals, it's hard to tell. The people selling Mania the hardest are the incredibly Nintendo-literate players who had the same reservations about Sonic's core paradigm but tell me the level design has markedly improved in the execution. But I'm still on the fence for a reason, and those of you here who are quick to assume this position must be disingenuous are too busy revealing yourselves as either poor readers or poor players to offer much in the way of insight.

It's not that people who can't get into Sonic don't know how to play platformers; it's that there has long been reason to suspect that, much like a lot of films or books I can name, Sonic might fall into the category of things that are paradoxically harder to appreciate the deeper you get into a medium. The snots and boors in this thread scrambling to announce that Sonic's priorities are obvious aren't doing the series any favours. Nobody's asking for hand-holding tutorials; what they're asking for is a sense of conceptual elegance. If you think it's obvious, you had better be prepared to make the case.

Thank you for this post, sums up my thoughts better than I could ever write them. The fans in this thread just saying "just do the levels lol u must be dumb" are infuriating. Like you said, there's a reason why very experienced players struggle to grok Sonic, even if we really want to, and the point of the OP was to figure out what mindset you need to get into to enjoy the games.
 

Servbot24

Banned
This is what happens when game developers neglect to add tutorials and fun QTE prompts.

When will they learn

I don't read most of the questions here as complaints. Learning a game is part of the fun sometimes and that's what people are trying to do.
 

sibarraz

Banned
I still don't understand the criticism that the series is getting.

Memorizing things is bad? while praising mario and fuking donkey kong? all those games require some kind of memorizing and learning to pass through it, is inherent to the genre.

Lack of collecting? the game requires you to not only collect rings, but also being careful enough to keep them with you without dying until you reach a checkpoint so you can go to a bonus stage.

And even ignoring all of this, Sonic was a series designed for children, it doesn't have any complexity on it, unless you want to master it, just like most of the plataform games in that era
 

Justin Bailey

------ ------
For me it's two things that make Sonic enjoyable --

1) Sonic is like a racing game. Once you hit a good "flow" hitting the ramps, loops, etc in a level it's a good feeling.
2) It's also like a pinball machine where you can adjust the ball's velocity to hit things. Making the right adjustments on the fly to hit power ups, enemies, get rings, etc is also a good feeling.

Those two aspects on Sonic are what make it enjoyable for me.

It's also why I hate the water levels! Water messes with both of those in a bad way.
 

RRockman

Banned
I don't know why there is so much condescending in this thread. 2D Sonic games can be a bit complex, especially to newcomers.

Obviously there's an easy way to play 2D Sonic games, going from point A to point B witbout dying, but there's more to 2D sonics games than that. There's getting the chaos emeralds which requires exploration to find the right/optimal routes to take, and also having a hefty amount of rings on Sonic. Getting the chaos emeralds and the best endings can be quite tedious I think, so let's not be condesending please.

People have already pointed out that most people ask this in jest jused to get a sonic sux in, as the majority of the first page has done. It might not be the correct approach but I understand unfortunately. I answered the OP seriously though, so I hope he and lurkers get the point.

I'm from the camp that asserts Sonic was never great (I'll give you good, but not great), so take this as you will, but the shoot-from-the-hip defensiveness and condescension in this thread has gone a long, long way towards persuading me that maybe people aren't joking when they say the fan base is the worst thing about this series.

Since many of you clearly decided to read the thread title as uncharitably as possible and hit Reply without thinking—gotta go fast, right?—I think it's worth emphasizing that a lot of scepticism or befuddlement towards Sonic comes from players who are otherwise very experienced at 2D platformers, particularly from the Nintendo school of design. In a way it's not all that helpful to lump all of them into a single genre (a mistake people still make in spades with "Metroidvania") and I think the diversity of side-scroller design, and the unique design personality afforded each distinct IP, was a lot clearer in the SNES/Genesis era when this format was the biggest game in town. The question here isn't how to get through the stages from left to right, but how to have fun doing it, and I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking that Sonic sends mixed messages about how to get the most out of reading the stages and exploring them. That's certainly how I felt on returning to the Genesis games on the Wii VC as a significantly more experienced and design-literate player than I was back when the Nintendo/Sega rivalry was at its peak.

With this in mind, I appreciate the posts that actually try to break down the arcade design philosophy underlying Sonic and answer the question of what kind of mindset it takes to not only play the games but enjoy them. The thing about Sonic is that there is this massive discontinuity between the two separate experiences of speeding through the environment and plodding around if you run into spikes, a lack of gradation along a spectrum from one end to the other that makes these experiences feel like one game instead of two (with one of them, the slow one, leaving a strong and encumbering impression that you are doing it wrong). It's like the Baby Mario sequences in Yoshi's Island, except all the time—either you're in the flow or you're stumbling. So it's illuminating, and important for the sake of conversation, to look into whether Sonic benefits from a different approach in terms of how to read the stage, because forming a mental map of the layout certainly doesn't work the same way it does in a Mario game, where you can do it all in one brisk pass.

DKC is a good point of comparison here, not least because the original game's reputation has faded in its own right, only for the series to come back in exceptional form. DKCTF is the game I hold up as the king of speedy momentum-driven platformers, and a lot of it comes down to two things: (a) the mechanical continuity between the slow, exploratory experience with your eyes peeled for every secret and the frantic speed-run route where every enemy and stage element is like a boost pad; and (b) the quality, shared with Mario, that if your mastery of the mechanics is good, you always, always have a chance to read the screen and react no matter how fast you are going, even in an apparent move-or-die stage like the notorious Bopopolis. In my experience with the original Sonic games, you don't really get that same window of reaction conjoining the fast and slow game and letting you swap smoothly from one to the other. The skills at mentally mapping out a stage layout that you might cultivate in a Nintendo platformer aren't really transferable.

So either you bounce off the design philosophy—I sure did, and so have many others by the looks of it—or you find another way into it, like an RPG packrat adjusting to a game designed around aggressively spending consumables or breaking weapons. And if there is another way into Sonic, a more pleasurable way, it's useful to know what that is. I'm surely not the only one here in the position of contemplating taking a chance on Sonic Mania despite never really clicking with the series before, and this is practically the only way to inform the decision.

I'd like to fall for a Sonic game for once, and this one looks like it has a real shot, but from my lukewarm experience with the originals, it's hard to tell. The people selling Mania the hardest are the incredibly Nintendo-literate players who had the same reservations about Sonic's core paradigm but tell me the level design has markedly improved in the execution. But I'm still on the fence for a reason, and those of you here who are quick to assume this position must be disingenuous are too busy revealing yourselves as either poor readers or poor players to offer much in the way of insight.

It's not that people who can't get into Sonic don't know how to play platformers; it's that there has long been reason to suspect that, much like a lot of films or books I can name, Sonic might fall into the category of things that are paradoxically harder to appreciate the deeper you get into a medium. The snots and boors in this thread scrambling to announce that Sonic's priorities are obvious aren't doing the series any favours. Nobody's asking for hand-holding tutorials; what they're asking for is a sense of conceptual elegance. If you think it's obvious, you had better be prepared to make the case.

So to break this post down, you think that

A. Sonic fans are the worst because they jump the gun so to speak about people critizing the franchise. I couldn't help but notice that you glossed right over the entirety of the first page and how your groupies of the "sonic was never good crowd" tend to post that they hate sonic because they can. You also decided that the best course of action was to get in a prejorative gotta go fast insult while knowing the situation at hand. Is fighting fire with fire right really the answer here?

B. Sonic that sonic doesn't handle moving from slow to fast very well. And you don't get a chance to read the screen if you are good at the mechanics. You say that isn't the case with Mario games but my personal experience dissagrees. Both SMW as well as the newer 3d games (I've played 3d land and world) becomes plenty harder if you hold down the run button the whole time and react to everything if you don't know the area. The trick is to slow down and play it normally first, and then do it again at high speeds to beat the level as fast as you can. Something I learned from the Sonic games actually.

C. You seem to think that Sonic is lacking "Conceptual Elegance" as you so put it. I argue the freedom of choice: exploration, collection, and speed is all the conceptual elegance I need. The fact that you can play a level multiple times and discover radically new ways to approach situations and a secrets is asounding and keeps me coming back for more every single time.

Despite your bias I believe you have a good head on your shoulders and I have to say that you should really just try the game for yourself. We could go around and around for days like this but it won't matter if you wont open up your mindset to it. The only way that could happen is if you were to play it and judge fairly with your tastes versus it's merits.
 

iswasdoes

Member
Lot of crap in this thread. As many have said its quite open how you play the game - I have answered your questions based on how I play.

Are you trying to acquire and hang onto as many rings as possible, or do they not really matter outside of lives?

They matter in two ways - 1) getting lives and 2) the more you have makes recovering them when you get hit easier. So Im always grabbing rings but dont go tooo out of my way to get them as they are pretty abundant. One of the fun aspects of the game is learning where the big ring caches are and hitting them up as you go through a level on that run (dont forget, the games were designed to be played many times over).

Are you trying to complete levels as fast as possible or are you supposed to regularly stop and explore? The focus on speed in the game is a little confusing to me, as it seems like you'll be quickly ushered through gigantic parts of the game in the name of speed. Are you expected to kind of backtrack and explore the area that you just zoomed through?

This is a choice you have to make. Few levels can literally be smashed through with no slower platforming, so as a general rule i will speed through the ramp sections then sniff around when the pace naturally slows. But on sonic 1 i explored every level in its entirety. In mania, it is necessary if you want to 100% the game as you need to find the special stages

Should you be seeking out every TV to smash? What rewards do these garner? What about enemies? Should you be trying to kill them all or is it okay to just run past them?

Both can be ignored. Enemies are just obstacles. TVs with power ups can be worth seeking out (if I see a life or an electiricty/fire power up, i will seek out how to get it. But definitely not essential

What do you need to do to acquire the giant ring (no idea if that's what it's called)? What makes it invisible/unattainable and what unlocks the ability to acquire it? What's the benefit of acquiring the giant ring?

Allows you to access special stages, to collect chaos emeralds, to 100% the game and unlock super sonic (which is fun!). The special stages are also fun to play IMO but not everyone agrees.

My bottom line: £15.99 its more than worth it.
 

hotcyder

Member
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the reason the OP asked this question is because they're not enjoying the game as they're playing it now - and want to know if there's a correct way to play it in order to feel that enjoyment?

I know a lot of people say that the fun comes from the mastery of the title - and that's always been the appeal of Sonic's controls - but a lot of people might not pick that up. So, do the additional objectives or other conditions make this more entertaining to play?

Obviously, different strokes for different folks, but it says a lot that people are quick to a defend the title with "I got used to it so suck it up" or the ironic "Git Gud" rather then properly reflecting on where the OP might be coming from.
 

MechaX

Member
If there's one big insight I've picked up from the Sonic veterans here who had the patience to explain how they understood the Genesis games, it's that I should be treating the branching level structure like Star Fox. Made a mistake and missed the branch you wanted? Live with it, take the run as far as you can, keep the spot in mind when you come back another day.

Out of all my years of playing Sonic, this is the best way to look at things in my opinion. There are a lot of routes in a level, but always think of them as branches like in Star Fox. On one route, you may find it to be a pain in the ass to get through, and that's fine; just remember that on a replay. Maybe one route has a Special Stage ring and very useful shields; okay, use that route next time. Basically, it's all about finding the best way that works for you. I have played the shit out of the Genesis titles and I still don't know every single branch in a level.

Of course, this gets to the point where you have to be rewilling to replay a level at least a few times (you don't have to completely master a level at all; you can probably find a good path within a second or third replay). Being one and done is just not the point of a platformer like Sonic or Mega Man. And one more thing that was mentioned that is spot on; just don't come in with the expectation that your first run is going to be good and you can adjust expectations accordingly.
 

Adam Blue

Member
Very interesting...

I do find it fascinating that a mindset on how to play a game can exist, it's as old as gaming, but rare. Most modern games are simple because they are pretty linear, and even games with built in exploration give the player tools to discover everything right there.

Sonic reminds me a lot about SHMUPS, and is not obvious in how to play (a lost gameplay mechanic in mainstream games, which is why I think Sonic has always struggled).

When I play a SHMUP, Gradius V for example, I have to learn patterns, bosses, enemies, weapon types. First playthrough is horrible. By the 10th and beyond, I'm mastering...like Dark Souls.

Sonic is Dark Souls.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the reason the OP asked this question is because they're not enjoying the game as they're playing it now - and want to know if there's a correct way to play it in order to feel that enjoyment?

No one who's played a few minutes of, say, Sonic 3 would ask a question like "what's the benefit of acquiring the giant rings?". There's a point in in the first Zone where the game sends you directly into an area with a giant ring, at which point you'll quickly discover how they work and what reward you get from them. Now if they had said something like "what's the point of getting all the Chaos Emeralds?" I might believe they'd attempted to put in some time with the game.
 

gelf

Member
I know some people feel this way, but why does it stop at platformers for you? Most genres would be widely panned if you had to repeat parts of the game to get the most enjoyment out of it. Look at the criticism that Dark Souls II got for having to memorize portions of it's enemy placement/level design.
It doesn't stop at platformers as I'm a big fan of arcadey design in general. Games that rely on different hooks like the story or whatever can be a different matter though.

It probably depends on how you approach games and what and how you expect to master them.

You could easily argue that Sonic does in fact provide an enjoyable experience first time round if you're a player who doesn't want to replay levels many times to memorise routes and enemy positions, for instance. If you don't care about nailing down a perfect route later there's still enough to enjoy (though in an aimless way since there's so much ground to cover in each level).
Don't get me wrong I do enjoy them first time. You just need to have a mindset that you can't and are not supposed to see everything in one run. What I will do is see those paths I can't reach and look forward to finding how to get there next time. Thinking "I didn't build up enough speed before that ramp earlier in the level, I should see what happens if I do so next time".
 

Peltz

Member
Very interesting...

I do find it fascinating that a mindset on how to play a game can exist, it's as old as gaming, but rare. Most modern games are simple because they are pretty linear, and even games with built in exploration give the player tools to discover everything right there.

Sonic reminds me a lot about SHMUPS, and is not obvious in how to play (a lost gameplay mechanic in mainstream games, which is why I think Sonic has always struggled).

When I play a SHMUP, Gradius V for example, I have to learn patterns, bosses, enemies, weapon types. First playthrough is horrible. By the 10th and beyond, I'm mastering...like Dark Souls.

Sonic is Dark Souls.

I'm face-palming right now. I played and beat sonic when I was 5 years old. This isn't Dark Souls at all.

You play it just like Mario. It's the same exact mindset except Sonic can go fast if you want him to. It cannot be simpler.

I don't get what people don't get. There's no dissonance in objectives here. If you keep hitting spikes, you're going too fast. You wouldn't hold down the accelerator in a racing game when taking sharp turns. And you don't run as fast as possible with Sonic when navigating dangerous areas.

When you see loop-de-loops, go fast. When you see spikes, go slow. It really could not be simpler. If you keep hitting spikes, you're playing the game wrong. Stop overthinking this.
 

ckaneo

Member
The problem with this thread and the amount of people defending OP and the posters in here while attacking Sonic fans is that the OP asked silly questions and there are posters in here clearly saying "Sonic was never good". And you guys are defending them by saying they are legitimately asking design questions. When they clearly arent
 

hotcyder

Member
You play it just like Mario. It's the same exact mindset except Sonic can go fast if you want him to. It cannot be simpler.

Their mechanics have nothing in common though.

Mario levels don't have loop de loops you have to enter at the right speed or about avoiding obstacles despite your inertia.

Same as Sonic doesn't have digital speed and jumps, and the levels aren't quirky obstacle courses.

You Jump, you Run - but there's way more context to those commands that separates the two games.
 

Adam Blue

Member
I'm face-palming right now. I played and beat sonic when I was 5 years old. This isn't Dark Souls at all.

You play it just like Mario. It's the same exact mindset except Sonic can go fast if you want him to. It cannot be simpler.

I don't get what people don't get. There's no dissonance in objectives here. If you keep hitting spikes, you're going too fast. You wouldn't hold down the accelerator in a racing game when taking sharp turns. And you don't run as fast as possible with Sonic when navigating dangerous areas.

When you see loop-de-loops, go fast. When you see spikes, go slow. It really could not be simpler. If you keep hitting spikes, you're playing the game wrong. Stop overthinking this.

Well, I was going for humor there. I'm a long-time Sonic fan, and SHMUP fan. I see some parallels in play-style, but I brought up the above to hopefully connect with the idea that the others have, being that they don't know how to play Sonic. I was hoping the above would be insightful - but yes, the DS comment was kinda a dig...

EDIT: Also, I know it might be rare, but my reply was to bridge differences. Yes, it's easy to face-palm others for how they think, but I try to converse beyond that line of thinking. It doesn't always translate well on the internet, but hey, that's the internet.
 

Defuser

Member
Just think 2D sonic games as a gameshow obstacle course. You get from point A to B within a time limit through platforming, finding different route and sometimes defeating enemies. Rings are your lives and any additional rings will be an extra bonus.

In other words just play anyway you want within the time limit of the stage.
 

NeonBlack

Member
All these questions would be answered by just playing the game like you do any platform. You'll run into every question you asked and will have an immediate answer.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Wow, yesterday I was struggling so much with this game. This morning I blazed through stages 2 and 3.

I can't understand how would someone memorize this mazes that are the levels. On stage 2 I was struggling with some purple water and the next time I went through the level I didn't even pass through that place.

Anyways, fun game.

People usually don't memorize the levels by heart. Usually just the key landmarks and areas. But you play the games enough and you get a feel for the design and the rhythm so you usually know what to expect.
 

Saikyo

Member
Does mania have a save feature? That's the only thing I hate about 1 and 2, can't save and need to beat the game in one sitting

I play the game like a baby, I go super slow and try to avoid every enemy x spike because I don't want to lose my rings, I always go for the special stage bonus

It has the save system from sonic 3.
 
I thought the goal of sonic was to get a perfect line through the level so you never stop going fast. I think i am playing the game wrong.
 
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heringer

Member
Ok, as someone who related to OP and never quite got Sonic before, Sonic Mania is pretty great after playing 4 zones.

Some of the tips here really helped. The one that helped me the most was that you are not supposed to be running all the time. Instead, you have to learn to recognize the pattern of when you are supposed to be running and when you are supposed to stop and play like a regular platformer.

Also, after playing more the importance of the rings becomes more obvious: not so much to give you lives, but mainly so recovering rings is easier when you get hit. Rings are basically health points in this game, and the more health you have when you get hit, more health you can get back.

Another tip that helped is that you should let go of other paths. You can come back later. Stick with the route you are going without thinking too much about it. All roads lead to Rome.

I don't completely agree with people saying "play how you want". I mean, sure, you can do that (with almost any game, actually), but there's definitely a specific flow going on, and you are supposed to go with that flow.

All that being said, I remember the level design from earlier games being much more punishing, and the said flow of constant change between running and platforming feels more abrupt, not nearly as suave as in Sonic Mania. I could be remembering the games wrong, though.
 

eme

Member
When my chao died I cried as a child.

My memory card became corrupt while saving on my Dreamcast and all my sonic adventure Chao evaporated.... that's the day my life starting going down hill. Never started going back up.

I was 8.
 
How many times we gotta repeat this? Sonic is about mastery.

Play the stages casually first, then try to advance in terms of getting better at them, collecting chaos emeralds, unlocking Super Sonic/etc.
 

heringer

Member
How many times we gotta repeat this? Sonic is about mastery.

Play the stages casually first, then try to advance in terms of getting better at them, collecting chaos emeralds, unlocking Super Sonic/etc.

This reads like a slightly less condescending "git gud".

It's obvious that some people have trouble figuring the game out even playing it casually. If you don't get the fundamentals in the first place, how are you going to be compelled to master it?

It's like someone asks you "how do I play this game in order to have fun?" and your answer is "to have fun with the game, you have to know how to play".
 

dlauv

Member
This reads like a slightly less condescending "git gud".

It's obvious that some people have trouble figuring the game out even playing it casually. If you don't get the fundamentals in the first place, how are you going to be compelled to master it?

It's like someone asks you "how do I play this game in order to have fun?" and your answer is "to have fun with the game, you have to know how to play".

He's not wrong though. They're highly replayable because of how transformative the gameplay becomes as you master it. You stop bumbling and start doing tricky jumps and get to areas you never thought you could. How you play the stages becomes personal and rewarding because the choices you make have more meaning behind them than simply pachislotting the multiple paths.

I never got past this part.

Me neither. I used to rent Sonic 3 a lot as a kid and never got past this part. I also used to check out a Sonic 3 guide book at the library with detailed art, trivia, and stage maps with points of interest highlighted + strats. It never even mentioned the barrel at all.
 

Toxi

Banned
Getting the Chaos Emeralds is like getting all the stars in 3D Mario; first you play through the game to beat it, then you play through the game with your experience to really beat it.
 

heringer

Member
He's not wrong though. They're highly replayable because of how transformative the gameplay becomes as you master it. You stop bumbling and start doing tricky jumps and get to areas you never thought you could. How you play the stages becomes personal and rewarding because the choices you make have more meaning behind it than simply pachislotting the multiple paths.

Of course he is not wrong. But his answer doesn't address at all the issues OP has. The assertion that the game is about mastering doesn't help anyone to better understand the fundamentals in order to, eventually, get to the point where they can get enjoyment out of mastering the game.
 
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