Support NeoGAF

[Rickenslacker]

Man, let's not act like this thread didn't have direct shots at Sonic fans from the get go. The OP's incredibly strange questions were like if you were to explain a videogame to anyone who has never played them, yet plenty answered his questions seriously. It was all the other posts that just went straight to "the games are terrible".

[...]

At the bold: That rhetoric is mostly used by those who take themselves way too seriously and only to denounce whatever they don't like, get, etc. That's not an objective truth that could be revealed, that's just a fact that not everybody is going to like everything. Whether they have knowledge when it comes to a subject or not.

And man, I respect you for taking your time to write out this post. But you're not really saying much that hasn't been said in this thread. Majority of your post is "I don't get Sonic, I wish it was more like these Nintendo games" and the rest is shots at Sonic fans. "You had better be prepared to make the case" when there isn't a case.

Sonic, by all accounts, is a simple game. The only way you can state the contrary is if you have some sort of bias, or want the game to be something it's not. Sorry you guys couldn't get into them, but saying "it's the games fault" over and over doesn't change the fact that it isn't.

I just wanted to say thanks for making the post I had absolutely no motivation or energy capable of doing. Especially since it opened with a broad strokes jab and almost seemed anachronistically charged in tone.

OP here. I've put about an hour into Sonic Mania, and...

It's fucking awesome!

Old school goodness from top to bottom. Just got through the Chemical Plant Zone and the level design is wonderful. The air pipes. The Bouncy goo. The sticky platforms. The DNA strand things... Just beautiful and charming and fun. Really excited to play some more.

I'm kind of going for speed this first time through, but I plan to take it nice and slow on a second playthrough.

Glad you're enjoying it, it's simple at its core.

 

[Exodust]

No time to respond to the lengthy and considered replies to my other posts at the moment, but a quick update: I did in fact pick up Mania on an impulse today and am enjoying it a lot—probably the most I've liked a Sonic game to date, in fact—and I think some of the better strands of conversation in this thread assisted a great deal with setting the right context: treating the stages like surviving a pinball machine rather than mentally mapping it out, for instance, and not fretting about missing paths and not having an obvious way to get back on them. Probably the strongest thing I can say in favour of Mania so far is that it makes me want to go back and reconsider Sonic 1. (Mega Man 9 did the same thing, but my baseline admiration for NES Mega Man was higher.) "Slow Sonic" also feels a lot more playable as a precision platformer than I remember the old games being.

Glad you're enjoying it, dude.

 

[TheEndOfItAll]

They're fine games, but they're fun for like 10 seconds and then I'm done.

 

[Airola]

Actually it came about largely because they discovered when transitioning from 2d to 3d it became far more difficult to aim Sonic during platforming segments at the speeds he traveled. Even though he had a shadow trailing under him to help you know where you were landing there were often too many objects or camera difficulties to insure platforming with much accuracy in 3d at high speed as opposed to how well you could control Sonic in 2d.

The homing attack was used as a means to "right the course" should Sonic veer off too far during a high speed jump as he was easily known to do as gamers frequently overshot their jumps or oversteered his descent. They then over used this mechanic to also lead Sonic along paths which is what rings and powerups were generally used to do before when the developers wanted to leave visual clues for players to notice as they sped by. It worked to help with jumping but unfortunately it made enemies a joke. No longer did they pose a threat or challenge during platforming that upped the tension but instead they provided a relief valve guaranteeing easy platforming as opposed to technical moments.

The homing attack did screw things up bad, but it was originally a creation that stop gap attempted to mitigate the difficulty players were having controlling Sonic in 3d with any accuracy.

Sure, but I think this goes hand in hand with speed too. I mean, missed and miscalculated jumps have an effect on speed too. The more people need to focus on aiming and make secondary jumps, the less fast the game becomes. So to make it easier for players to hit the enemies and to keep the momentum up, the homing system was created.

 

[Jimrpg]

This article captures this aspect of Sonic quite well

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/27/why-sonic-the-hedgehog-incorrect-game-design

In short, it does a lot of things 'wrong' but somehow still works.



Great article, articulates what is odd about Sonic.

I don't really agree with any of this.

The game did just fine teaching you things. You're NOT supposed to be running thru blazing at 100mph on the first go. You can but you miss a LOT of the stage. You should be exploring everything, just like Mario, but the stages have a lot of verticality to them. You have to constantly ask how you're suppose to get to something or reach a certain platform. Only when you've mastered the level, can you really go through it at top speed.

As a kid with not so many games, we replayed stages a lot so we got to try new ways of playing every time. And save games weren't prevalent back then. You had to collect the rings to get more lives so you could reach the end. Therefore you had to explore more.

Save games and endless continues breaks that aspect of gameplay.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Yep, much worse gameplay and design than Mario games. But...gotta go fast!

This is the eternal truth that people always run away from when it comes to Sonic.

 

[ShinNoNoir]

One thing I've seen a lot of people miss when viewing streams and videos of those that aren't into Sonic is...the roll.

Pressing down to tuck into a roll is so important for gaining momentum while dispatching enemies.

This baffled me. I came across a few clips this week in which the player just ran straight into an enemy at full speed, and I was thinking to myself "why didn't you roll"?

 

[C4Lukins]

I am not a huge fan of the franchises, but this question of how to play it bothers me.

You can play it just to win the game.

You can play it to get all of the chaos emeralds.

You can play it to speed through each level.

You can play it to beat all the bonus levels.

You can beat the bonus levels and try to get a better time.

Sonic is fun because you can almost make up fun for yourself. The world allows that, and unlike some of its competitors, back in the day you had a lot more options with Sonic.

There is no way to play the game. But if you want to win it, speedrun it, discover every path and every secret... You can do all of that with the first three Sonic games. And it is a lot of fun.

 

[Lynd7]

The point is just to beat the levels, sure there are Chaos Emeralds for a extra objective, but the original point was to just get to the end of the game.

I used to explore and try and uncover what's in the world as a kid. There's a bunch of cool secrets and things to do just in the original first 3 acts of Green Hill Zone. Also, used to mess round with the physics, like using the speed shoes in Act 2 of Green Hills to launch across the entire bit of platforming after the loop.

 

[orborborb]

try to get the highest score? it is on the screen there all the time maybe it means something...

 

[C4Lukins]

Super Mario World is a very different game.

Typically there are a couple of choices. There is winning the level and getting all the coins.

But in general, it is a straight up level. And on the B-Side at the last moment you choose a new direction.

If you enjoy video games, both the Sonic World and Mario world should be compelling. If not, you are a dried up cunt that should die from lack of water.

 

[SuperCambot]

For me, Sonic games are "GET TO THE END BEFORE SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENS!! WHERE'S THE END?? SPIKES!!! GODDAMMIT I HATE SONIC GAMES!!!!!!"

 

[Mr. Wedgewood]

haha they apologized for the barrel in Sonic 3

https://youtu.be/3XeBgeN5uG8

 

[Falk]

So this thread in a nutshell:

People who don't find Sonic fun to people who find Sonic fun: 'why do you guys find it fun, wtf?'

People who find Sonic fun to people who don't find Sonic fun: 'why don't you guys find it fun, wtf?'

And then we have this:

OP here. I've put about an hour into Sonic Mania, and...

It's fucking awesome!

Old school goodness from top to bottom. Just got through the Chemical Plant Zone and the level design is wonderful. The air pipes. The Bouncy goo. The sticky platforms. The DNA strand things... Just beautiful and charming and fun. Really excited to play some more.

I'm kind of going for speed this first time through, but I plan to take it nice and slow on a second playthrough.

I guess we're done here. Leaving thread open to keep all the one-liner driveby shitposts out of the others paid off ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

edit:

On a more serious note:

in fact—and I think some of the better strands of conversation in this thread assisted a great deal with setting the right context

Thank you for this, people with a lot of patience.

 

[Paracelsus]

I respect gaf's general opinion, but to me Sonic was always as in always (ever since I played it the first time, the Janet Jackson version):

Find the most comfortable way for you to make it to the end of the stage while never stopping, make it the most seamless transition from start to finish.

Kinda like Mirror's Edge, it doesn't matter if you jump or you dash or whatever, never stop.

 

[Patrick Young]

All 2D Sonic games were bullshit until the Sonic CD remake. You can't see where you're going in 4:3.

I'm waiting for the Steam release, but I think I'll like Sonic Mania for the same reason.

 

[Dunkley]

It's not really that different than Mario besides the fact that he has a dedicated run button while Sonic has a spindash.

Speed is a reward for understanding the level layout well enough to maintain it, not a neccessity, and there are games like Sonic CD that actively punish you for neglecting exploration in favor of speed.

Rings serve as your power up and actively serve as your second chances. The more you have, the more chances you have to recover from your mistake and not be screwed if you make another one.

Much like how Super Mario World and later New Super Mario Bros. rewards retaining a power up to go to special areas, in some games keeping your rings allow you to enter bonus stages in order to collect Chaos Emeralds, while others have additional means besides it to collect them.

The bread and butter of Sonic overall relatively simple. Like all platformers that era it's primarily just jumping and running. Where you would jump on enemies Super Mario World, you press down to start rolling in Sonic. It's pretty much the same stuff, and you can play both games pretty much the same and have a good time. The speed is just a bonus once you know the enviroment well enough.

 

[Freshmaker]

How do you play the Witcher? Are you supposed to compete every side mission?

Yes, and fast travel breaks the immersion so you must horse or walk.

 

[Chao]

All 2D Sonic games were bullshit until the Sonic CD remake. You can't see where you're going in 4:3.

I'm waiting for the Steam release, but I think I'll like Sonic Mania for the same reason.

That's absolutely not true. You're just bad at Sonic by the looks of it.

Or maybe I was a privileged 8 year old kid who had no problems beating Sonic back in 1991, but I doubt it.

 

[Inspector Jones]

I just got Sonic Mania too; despite in the past struggling with the very same issue of not understanding how to play. I had the same feeling when I first started playing Mania that I was playing the game "wrong".

I've on World 4 now. I just had to repress that feeling I wasn't getting the game and just commit to making it to the end of each level. Most of the time I've committed to the "Go Fast!" part rather than the explore part and I'm having fun with the game. I'll go slower and explore and future replays or/and with a second player.

I'm enjoying this game way more than I enjoyed the original 2D games when I was a kid, but Sonic's formula really does feel different than other platformers.

 

[Haganeren]

OP here. I've put about an hour into Sonic Mania, and...

It's fucking awesome!

Old school goodness from top to bottom. Just got through the Chemical Plant Zone and the level design is wonderful. The air pipes. The Bouncy goo. The sticky platforms. The DNA strand things... Just beautiful and charming and fun. Really excited to play some more.

I'm kind of going for speed this first time through, but I plan to take it nice and slow on a second playthrough.

I saw your first post and thought it was some legitimate questions. Then i saw the answers and i was really sad. I'm really happy you found the answers you sought.

Sonic is no that easy to understand and people who don't want to understand it just say it's bad game... *sigh*

 

[Waluigilicious]

So I agree with the OP and I'm playing Sonic Mania. It's really fun. Definitely the best 2D Sonic game.

I still feel that sometimes I get hit and it's not my fault, and i can't decide whether I should just go fast or play slowly. However I must say that the advice telling us to stay as high as possible has helped a lot. Gives me an aim while playing!

Also, I love the bonus stages for the Chaos Emeralds and the blue orb stages.

 

[Golgo 13]

I bought Sonic Mania and I really don't know why. I've always had this problem with these games -- am I Supposed to go fast? Oh wait, a carefully placed enemy (or spikes, or pit, or wall, or spring) just killed my fun speed run -- and thus the only fun I was having with the game. Thanks devs! Do I take my time and collect coins? Oh god no, it makes the game really awkward and boring to play.



WHY GOD DID I GET THIS FUCKING GAME.

 

[Waluigilicious]

I bought Sonic Mania and I really don't know why. I've always had this problem with these games -- am I Supposed to go fast? Oh wait, a carefully placed enemy (or spikes, or pit, or wall, or spring) just killed my fun speed run -- and thus the only fun I was having with the game. Thanks devs! Do I take my time and collect coins? Oh god no, it makes the game really awkward and boring to play.



WHY GOD DID I GET THIS FUCKING GAME.

Because we forget we can just listen to the soundtrack on YouTube.

 

[Malio]

I can completely relate to this. Sonic games, and their appeal, are fucking baffling to me. But GOTTA GO FAST!...or something. I guess?

 

[SigSig]

I can completely relate to this. Sonic games, and their appeal, are fucking baffling to me. But GOTTA GO FAST!...or something. I guess?

Maybe read the thread, in which people explain the appeal...or something. I guess?

 

[Formless]

I'm having trouble really enjoying the game or other 2D sonics. It feels very janky compared to other platformers I've played (lots of start, stop, start, stop). I guess uneven is the word.

 

[Exodust]

I'm having trouble really enjoying the game or other 2D sonics. It feels very janky compared to other platformers I've played (lots of start, stop, start, stop). I guess uneven is the word.

Y'all don't even know what jank is.

 

[Vampfox]

haha they apologized for the barrel in Sonic 3

https://youtu.be/3XeBgeN5uG8

Am I the only one who didn't have a problem with the barrel?

 

[Strangelove77]

I'm too lazy to read all these, so if anyone can summarize why this thread is so big that'd be cool.

 

[Crayolan]

Make it to the end of the level.

Have fun.

Learn to control and maintain your speed as you play more.

It's a platformer, it's really not that complicated.

 

[exmachina64]

This is the first time I've really played a Sonic game and I'm loving every minute of it!

I'm too lazy to read all these, so if anyone can summarize why this thread is so big that'd be cool.

Some people don't like other people liking/enjoying/playing what they don't like/enjoy/play.

I'm having trouble really enjoying the game or other 2D sonics. It feels very janky compared to other platformers I've played (lots of start, stop, start, stop). I guess uneven is the word.

That's not jank, it's intentional level design.

 

[Branduil]

 

[Banana Aeon]

Am I the only one who didn't have a problem with the barrel?

You're not. I never had a problem with it. It's just up and down. Always made sense from my perspective.

 

[Shifty1897]

I agree with all the questions the OP had, but I think our confusion comes from not having Sega systems as a kid. I mean, Mario doesn't explain itself any better than Sonic but I understand what is important in a Mario game, probably because I played them so much as a kid I eventually just "got it."

One day I'll pick up Sonic Mania, and hopefully one day I'll understand all the mechanics well enough to just "get it."

 

[Kayhan]

You just gotta go fast.










I can't believe I got in first with this joke.

 

[dafortune]

I never understood 2d Sonic games either, I don't think I've ever gotten more than 5 levels into any of them. It seems to switch between linear speed sections that basically play themselves and large confusing levels that you have to fight shitty controls to get though.

They do look and sound nice though.

 

[Glass Shark]

Came here to post this. dril confirmed as a GAF member

 

[Crayon]

lol thank you.

 

[Ferr986]

I'm too lazy to read all these, so if anyone can summarize why this thread is so big that'd be cool.

"Why doesn't this game plays like Mario?"