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I just watched Avatar, and I have some thoughts...

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SeanC

Member
The problem I have is that the biggest unobtainium deposits within 200 klicks was under the home tree.Why didn't they just go mining somewhere else there was a big deposit?They could have just set up another mine in an uninhabited part of the planter with good deposits.


They are mining other deposits, but it's pretty clear that the main vein and big grand daddy end-all-be-all deposit is under that tree and it turns into priority. They've been wanting it for a while.

One of the problems the movie does, though, and it becomes apparent in its third act, is that it doesn't quite showcase the size or scope of the actual planet or how much the Na'vi cover on it. We're mostly led to believe they inhabit the tree and that's it, but then suddenly we're told and shown there are many other tribes and many other thousands of Na'vi for the big fight at the end. It's never clear if it's just this one tribe they're having issues with or all the Na'vi.

Can't remember the extended version went into that more and maybe laid those seeds better. I'll have to see it again.
 

Giolon

Member
But if the term is applied to an actual existing/discovered substance, isnt that nonsensical?

In the wiki article itself, it states that the term is widely applied in the rare earth ore industry to apply to metals that current demand far outstrips supply.

The goal, I assume, of the writers in choosing that name was to signal that what specifically it is is entirely irrelevant to the story. The important thing is it's valuable, and it's probably rare in the universe which is why they're going through such lengths to get it.

I agreed that the use of the name itself is somewhat silly, and they probably could've chosen a name that caused less notice to itself.

They are mining other deposits, but it's pretty clear that the main vein and big grand daddy end-all-be-all deposit is under that tree and it turns into priority. They've been wanting it for a while.

One of the problems the movie does, though, and it becomes apparent in its third act, is that it doesn't quite showcase the size or scope of the actual planet or how much the Na'vi cover on it. We're mostly led to believe they inhabit the tree and that's it, but then suddenly we're told and shown there are many other tribes and many other thousands of Na'vi for the big fight at the end. It's never clear if it's just this one tribe they're having issues with or all the Na'vi.

Can't remember the extended version went into that more and maybe laid those seeds better. I'll have to see it again.

I don't think it's ever implied that these are all of the Navi on the whole planet that live in the tree. Neytiri drops the story about the legend of Tunak Tunak (or whatever his name is) uniting all the clans relatively early into the movie. The only reason the corporation wants them to move is because it's bad publicity back home is they massacre a bunch of sentient indigenous.
 

Rymuth

Member
Good points - immediately reminded me of this image

avatar.jpg
 
The scientist didn't have to be a good unselfish person. Just like Ann and the reds in the novel Red Mars, they are stubborn, and have biases to their priorities (preserve Mars as it was) that don't necessarily align with the greater good of humanity.

Sigourney is not supposed to be the voice of reason, (which would find a compromise ) but one of the ends of the spectrum.
 

FStop7

Banned
The only thing that bothered me about Avatar is how weak a story it told compared to Aliens, Terminator 1/2, the Abyss, and True Lies. Even Titanic was better at it.
 

Arkos

Nose how to spell and rede to
"I just watched Avatar, and I have some thoughts..."

Well you've got more going on in that department than Avatar did.

Zing!
 
It's Dances with Wolves with blue people, you're putting to much thought into trying to get a cohesive thought structure out of its narrative.
 

Meliora

Member
Avatar is basically Pocahontas. I still enjoy it though, it's fun to watch all the crazy details and colors. Allthough I prefer Disney's Pocahontas.
 

SeanC

Member
I don't think it's ever implied that these are all of the Navi on the whole planet that live in the tree. Neytiri drops the story about the legend of Tunak Tunak (or whatever his name is) uniting all the clans relatively early into the movie. The only reason the corporation wants them to move is because it's bad publicity back home is they massacre a bunch of sentient indigenous.

That's not exactly what I was saying, sorry if I worded it wrong. There's one clan in the tree, but little is really delved into the idea of multiple clans all over the planet and especially how large they are until the montage towards the end where we see thousands and thousands of others. You don't get a sense of that scope because none of those other clans/tribes play into the story because we're only focused on that single one.
 
I'm not defending the plot or anything like that, but if someone is doing the job they are paid to do, that doesn't free them from bad guy status. Think of how much evil bullshit happens in this world where people are 'just doing their job'.

Human trafficking, poaching, assassins.. If your biggest worry is the money you make, you could be an asshole.
 
Like you're trying to apply logic to the narrative, at the very beginning we see that earth is over polluted and over populated. And yet we have interstellar travel but no colonies are ever mentioned. So... why are they not colonizing the planet? If they have the tech to cross whatever the distance is, surely terraforming isn't that far outside the realm of possibility for them right?

The whole narrative structure falls apart the minute you try and parse out anything that happens as a logical entity, because it's not meant to be a movie in that fashion. It's a fantasy story, a blockbuster using an infinitely superior movie (seriously you can 1/1 superimpose scenes from Dances with Wolves over this shit) as a template without an ounce of creativity or narrative weight.

It was carried because it was, and still is, one of the most visually stunning movies ever created. It's James Cameron's tech demo.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
The scientist didn't have to be a good unselfish person. Just like Ann and the reds in the novel Red Mars, they are stubborn, and have biases to their priorities (preserve Mars as it was) that don't necessarily align with the greater good of humanity.

Sigourney is not supposed to be the voice of reason, (which would find a compromise ) but one of the ends of the spectrum.
I don't have any problem with her character being selfish, but as she studies the Navi she takes up the point of view that disturbing them isn't worth mining for rocks. Well, okay. But, as she sets her self up as their advocate among the mining company employees, she stops doing her job of trying to communicate with them. What's worse, all the while she's building up this idea of herself as an advocate of letting this strange new society be unmolested and stay pure to its self, she doesn't actually advocate for the Navi. She never comes up with compromises that will allow them to remain unbothered, or just be less bothered, by the mining operations.

She talks so much about "stupid soldiers" killing them, but instead of coming up with ways to relieve tensions between the groups, she just insults the humans and ignores the Navi. The storytellers have put her in the middle of the two factions, and throughout the miners are constantly telling her and her team "we have our interests, you know what they are, help us tell the Navi about them." Not only does she not tell the Navi about the mining operations, she never goes to the Navi and asks them what they want or how they think the miners could improve things. That's not a problem for some random character, but it is a problem for a character whose job is being a diplomat, and its an even bigger problem for a diplomat who is constantly being asked to do diplomatic tasks. What's more, when she knows that the miners and the mercenaries have active plans to destroy the Navi city she doesn't breath a word of it to the Navi. She knows that they're going to be killed, but doesn't warn them to leave or prepare to defend themselves. She just leaves them to die.

She completely abandons the job she's there to do, and ignores all requests to do it, even when it aligns with her own stated ideals. Why would she do that?

I'm not defending the plot or anything like that, but if someone is doing the job they are paid to do, that doesn't free them from bad guy status. Think of how much evil bullshit happens in this world where people are 'just doing their job'.

Human trafficking, poaching, assassins.. If your biggest worry is the money you make, you could be an asshole.
Ribisi's character, and the head of the mercenaries, are actively trying to gain access to mineral deposits without fighting. They're willing to fight and kill for them because they're ruthless, but they do make an effort not to do it.

So that was my argument; They may not be good people, but they aren't blackhearted villains hellbent on killing for fun and making money no matter who it hurts.
 

Giolon

Member
That's not exactly what I was saying, sorry if I worded it wrong. There's one clan in the tree, but little is really delved into the idea of multiple clans all over the planet and especially how large they are until the montage towards the end where we see thousands and thousands of others. You don't get a sense of that scope because none of those other clans/tribes play into the story because we're only focused on that single one.
Ah, yeah. I agree with that.
 

Neff

Member
Cameron's original scriptment was better. What we ended up with was a lot more one-dimensional for the sake of a straightforward good vs evil immersive theme park ride.

Still pretty good, though.
 

Plum

Member
Good points - immediately reminded me of this image

avatar.jpg

Always hated this image. Not just because it's dumb as fuck but even in the context of the film it makes no sense. The entire reason that they're mining is that Earth, and therefore humanity, is running out of energy. Can't exactly own the stars when you got shit in terms of fuel.

Edit: Oh it's from a Warhammer novel. Always thought it was just the ramblings of some idiot.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
"Unobtanium"

Pretty much sums up anything you need to know about this travesty of cinema.

I remember seething through out the entire IMAX 3D midnight screening.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
"Unobtanium"

Pretty much sums up anything you need to know about this travesty of cinema.

I remember seething through out the entire IMAX 3D midnight screening.
Nah man, The Core has unobtainium, and that movie is an unsung classic.
 
The worst part about all this is that Cameron's original treatment written in the 90s was AWESOME. Its fixed virtually every plot hole presented here, fleshed out all the characters (especially the walking cliche that was Quaritch) was nowhere near as cliche and the alien creatures actually looked ALIEN rather than just dinosaurs/horses and dogs with extra limbs.

The main alien design bugs me the most. The obvious parallels to Native Americans/Africans is a sign of lazy writing. Of course we're going to side with the Space Elves, they were designed to be purely sympathetic, and their human like qualities reinforce that even more.
Any good writer could make even the most alien creature be relatable to an audience, but JC decided to take the easy way out.
Not to mention the movie is hilariously one-sided.
 
You do realize that doesn't come from any draft of the film script. Its from a Warhammer 40k novel.

When I tracked down that quote all I could find was that it was from a WH40k forum roleplay thing. So not even a novel. Although tbh the quote feels like it's just a couple of drafts away from being a pretty intimidating villain monologue for him to spout.

Like you're trying to apply logic to the narrative, at the very beginning we see that earth is over polluted and over populated. And yet we have interstellar travel but no colonies are ever mentioned. So... why are they not colonizing the planet? If they have the tech to cross whatever the distance is, surely terraforming isn't that far outside the realm of possibility for them right?

That's not a problem with the film, interstellar travel is incredibly expensive. The only reason the mining operation on Pandora is viable is because of the extreme value of unobtainium in-universe and the technology that allows them to build their heavy equipment and maintain supplies in-situ.

The ISV Venture Star is an antimatter initiated fusion drive, with a laser sail for the earth-leg of the journey both ways. It's a highly plausible design by the standards of science fiction spacecraft and it takes years to reach Pandora at sublight speeds.

If they terraform Pandora or some other near-Earth planet... so what? Unless they could ship literally billions of people there, how would that fix overpopulation on earth?
 
It's an actual word and scientific concept. What specifically it is or is called doesn't matter in the least to the story. I'll admit it does sound kind of goofy.

Also, OP seems to have missed the part of the story that Jake and Grace's mission is to get the Navi to trust them, so they can convince them to move. It's said in the story, and expanded upon in the extended edition, that trust is at an all time low because of an incident where the company guns came in and mowed down a school of Navi children that was being run by Grace to teach them English (and presumably about humanity).

Wow, didn't know it was actually thing.

Though still, sounds dumb as fuck. As a poster said above, it's quite lazy that they couldn't even give it a special name in the lore, and i'm pretty sure the vast majority of people didn't know it was a scientific concept so to have any merit in the field of "realism"/or a reason to preserve that name there.
 
The main alien design bugs me the most. The obvious parallels to Native Americans/Africans is a sign of lazy writing. Of course we're going to side with the Space Elves, they were designed to be purely sympathetic, and their human like qualities reinforce that even more.
Any good writer could make even the most alien creature be relatable to an audience, but JC decided to take the easy way out.
Not to mention the movie is hilariously one-sided.

It really doesn't help that at times the Navi come off sounding like the smug self-righteous hipster jerks you'd find at a Starbucks (or rather, a Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf, since Starbucks is too mainstream now).

I found myself wanting the Humans to just nuke the entire site from orbit (its the only way to be sure) by the end of the movie.
 

Rymuth

Member
You do realize that doesn't come from any draft of the film script. Its from a Warhammer 40k novel.
I do but how does that contradict in any way what I said that the OP's points reminded me of it? You presume to know my memories? Uhm.....okay, then. o_O
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Beautiful movie to look at, but everything about its story is paper thin. And not in a fun pulpy way, but in a way that still tries to play itself off as something super fucking emotionally resonant. Not to mention the "white savior" bullshit.
 

JimmyRustler

Gold Member
Saw this movie 5 or 6 times in cinema. Loved it deeply for some reason.

I retrospect I do think that Cameron wasted a lot of potential. A proper introduction of earth and the shitty conditions there would have made the message so much stronger. I'm pretty sure he'll tackle this in the sequels though. Seeing how fucking long he is working on these scripts gives me a lot of hope that the sequels won't be a rushed mess.
 

Meliora

Member
Avatar isn't really Pocahontas. It's Dances with Wolves.

Seriously, they're the same movie.

Well you know what they say, only 7 original stories/basic plots in the world and so on. While it's probably a bit more complicated than that, you can find similarities between most stories, and some stories are very much alike. So Disney's Pocahontas and Dance with Wilves share quite a bit of similarities too.

I always liked this one :p
original.jpg
 

gamz

Member
Well you know what they say, only 7 original stories/basic plots in the world and so on. While it's probably a bit more complicated than that, you can find similarities between most stories, and some stories are very much alike. So Disney's Pocahontas and Dance with Wilves share quite a bit of similarities too.

I always liked this one :p
original.jpg

With posts like this I feel I'm reading a thread from 2009. I mean it was cute when it first posted 7 years ago.
 

Wolfe

Member
For the record, I will state that I haven't seen it and have no desire to do so either.

Thank you for that valuable contribution to this discussion.

It's Dances with Wolves with blue people, you're putting to much thought into trying to get a cohesive thought structure out of its narrative.

Posts like these always get to me. It would be one thing if it was Cameron himself saying it, as he's the one that created the movie, but from random guy on message board it just comes off as condescending.
 

dankir

Member
One of the most beautiful films I've ever seen. Such a feast for the eyes. Everything is what goes in the toilet after you feast.

Plus it was done better by all the other movies that he stole the plot from.
 

Boney

Banned
Awfully mediocre movie hit with no cultural impact at all besides making 3D hip again for a couple of years.
I wonder if all those guys that were suicidal about not living with the totally in sync with Gaia and their spirit that had awesome raves and orgies are going to line up and cry again for the sequels.

And in terms of aesthetics, I understand people going gaga for the cg but it really was just one big videogame cutscene. On top of that all of the fauna is so fucking lazy by just taking an earth animal and slightly tweaking it so now it has such vision wow.

This being the highest grossing movie ever really pisses me off in an existential way. We've had so many classics that live through generations, Gone with the Wind, Casablanca or hell even Titanic. This movie is a complete reflection of the mindless consumerist society of today, where everything is fleeting and hollow. it's not a catastrophic movie like Attack of the Clones is, but it's just a nothing, a waste of time for anybody involved.
 

choco-fish

Member
Baring in mind the crap blockbusters we had in 2009, Avatar was far more memorable and watchable (and a technical marvel too) than the likes of Revenge of the fallen, Twilight, 2012, GI Joe, Terminator Salvation etc. All those films deserve way more bashing than Avatar gets, in my opinion.
 
Baring in mind the crap blockbusters we had in 2009, Avatar was far more memorable and watchable (and a technical marvel too) than the likes of Revenge of the fallen, Twilight, 2012, GI Joe, Terminator Salvation etc. All those films deserve way more bashing than Avatar gets, in my opinion.

Eh I think it would come out looking like the best blockbuster of the year every year since, aside from 2015.

These comic movies surely ain't offering it much competition aside from seeing characters we are more attached to being brought to life on screen

Cameron is one of the masters of large scale setpieces and he can craft a very competent movie still. He's lost his grit but his skills are still very much intact since his heyday
 

JB1981

Member
I don't think that it's ever stated that the Navi have stopped listening, I can see how it is implied in a few places, but it wasn't really fleshed out enough to know for sure.

And you're right, he does tell them that the miners are going to come and destroy their city. He tells them while it's happening, like every villain from every cartoon ever. The guy, if nothing else, didn't really care about the Navi.

There is a scene in the extended cut that shows an abandoned school where Grace used to teach the Navi English. The school was attacked by the PMCs, one of her best and closest students died and the Navi never returned to the school.

And I don't believe you are accurately capturing how events unfold near the end of the movie. Things escalate on what is essentially a false flag attack on the Navi. I'm not sure Jake or Grace ever believed the Company would go quite that far in manipulating the conflict
 
Amazing action movie, well paced, but of course it had an uninspiring story and dialogue.

I just hate when people shit of the movie as though it was an abomination.
 

hatchx

Banned
I like big action set pieces, explosions, and CG, and James Camera seriously does the best job at producing and directing said things.

The story is pretty one note. The characters are pretty one note.


....but I have to give the movie credit for the incredible visuals. I don't think they've been matched yet, and has made newer movies like The Force Awakens visually un-stimulating for me.
 
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