Iva Demilcol
Member
I think that it may take some time but thanks to Persona 5 we may get new turn based RPGs with UIs similar to P5's.
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I just wish we'd get a mainline FF with turn based similar to Persona 5
- Thread starter The Dude
- Start date
Pinko Marx
Banned
You could always just turn on wait mode sheesh.
OniBarubary
Banned
That's silly.
First Person Shooters have been done ad nauseum.
Third Person Action RPGs have been done ad nauseum.
Like...you can say that about literally any genre. Those genres are capable of retaining facets of themselves while still experimenting and doing new things withing it. I don't see, with games like Pokemon and Persona 5 coming out to great success, that's any different for turn-based RPGs.
The Dude
Member
But I look around and I see EO, Bravely Default, games like cosmic star heroine just out that's turn based, Persona 5, I am setsuna, success from games like lost Odyssey and blue dragon etc... .Turn based is a great combat style and its alive and kicking... But why does ff stray so bad and why is the modern fan base so hellbent against it?
OmegaDL50
Member
I find it interesting that there are some folks that claim a turned based RPG cannot do well on console today no less and ARPGs are the only sensible solution for "modern progression" or whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.
Yet we have Persona 5 which came out with an overwhelmingly positive critical reception, a turn based RPG even.
So considering this, I don't think it's a matter of turned based mechanics being labeled as archaic, despite how weak that excuse is, it's just there are not enough of them nowadays to prove that it is still a viable means for combat when implemented properly while retaining adequate challenge and not being about mindlessly using the attack command with minimal strategy.
In terms of console released turned based RPGs for the PS4 / XB1 generation alone. I can probably count less then there are fingers on my hand, yet when it comes to ARPGs, when you factor stuff like The Witcher 3, Fallout 4, Shadow of Mordor, FFXV, Horizon, and easily a dozen others, there is more than enough ARPGs to go around.
I suppose after Persona 5 and Cosmic Star Heroine, I'll have to wait until Dragon Quest XI for the next anticipated turn based rpg to enjoy. It would sure be nice if there was more of them though.
Yet we have Persona 5 which came out with an overwhelmingly positive critical reception, a turn based RPG even.
So considering this, I don't think it's a matter of turned based mechanics being labeled as archaic, despite how weak that excuse is, it's just there are not enough of them nowadays to prove that it is still a viable means for combat when implemented properly while retaining adequate challenge and not being about mindlessly using the attack command with minimal strategy.
In terms of console released turned based RPGs for the PS4 / XB1 generation alone. I can probably count less then there are fingers on my hand, yet when it comes to ARPGs, when you factor stuff like The Witcher 3, Fallout 4, Shadow of Mordor, FFXV, Horizon, and easily a dozen others, there is more than enough ARPGs to go around.
I suppose after Persona 5 and Cosmic Star Heroine, I'll have to wait until Dragon Quest XI for the next anticipated turn based rpg to enjoy. It would sure be nice if there was more of them though.
ATB is so strange. It has 'active' in the name but you end up waiting more than in straight-up turn-based.
And then they made FFX-2 instead of something that could have been amazing like a blitzball spinoff. Oh blitzball, how i miss ye.
mortal
Gold Member
Just because everybody else is doing it, doesn't mean that's the only way to ever do it. With that logic, what would ever be the point in trying to innovate or experiment outside of convention?
Final Fantasy as a series is driven by reinvention and experimentation, in both the visual direction and game design. One of the reasons why the series has keep relevant this long.
The Dude
Member
Exactly, and people eat them up on handhelds which make me say those audiences would gravitate to them on consoles just as much.
What I don't get is the aversion people have, its a simple form of chess in video game fashion.. I take a turn, enemy takes a turn... I just don't get why people act like this is the absolute garbage of gaming combat systems.
I just don't get the notion that real time combat is be all end all for everyone, why have every single game with real time combat? Like you said there's a plethora yet it doesn't matter to people, they want every single game with the same type of combat it seems.
And real time battle systems haven't been done to death? They pretty much constitute 99% of AAA games nowadays, and most of them are not particularly inspiring stuff either.
Why is it impossible to evolve or inovate within a turn-based system?
That's because Persona 5 is a more niche product, so it's allowed to be turn-based. We don't talk about Pokemon though, cause that's when the mental gymnastics start.
OniBarubary
Banned
...but everybody else isn't doing it.
That's the point.
I named like two series to show that it's possible to innovate or maintain some semblance of direction and evolution in that space while still being enjoyed by people.
You're reaching. Really really hard.
The Dude
Member
Exactly, people shit their pants over pokémon, but I guess turn based is OK there but not for ff because final fantasy is in the business of reinvention.
HawthorneKitty
Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
I love turn based games but I love FF games that arent turn-based too. Is it inconceivable that if Persona reached 10+ numbered titles it'd experiment outside of straight turn-based?
As others pointed out WoFF is turn-based, likewise other FF titles outside of the numbered series look to turn-based systems since X/X-2 released. They'll probably do that again but it's not the worst thing if the numbered series doesn't do it for a long while or even ever again.
There are lots of high-quality FF games outside of the numbered titles.
As others pointed out WoFF is turn-based, likewise other FF titles outside of the numbered series look to turn-based systems since X/X-2 released. They'll probably do that again but it's not the worst thing if the numbered series doesn't do it for a long while or even ever again.
There are lots of high-quality FF games outside of the numbered titles.
Marmaladefire
Member
Turn based doesn't suit Final Fantasy anymore. The tedium of XII's combat sometimes really highlights how any form of open world and any form of turn based don't work too well. The problem isn't that FF is in the business of reinvention, it's that FF is in the business of making semi accessible AAA games. Persona is still a baby in comparison. Less than 100 people working on P5 at a time generally, with tight budgets. A new Final Fantasy is like a new BioWare RPG in comparison.
Even in 2017 a new mainline FF is an event. Persona's current success is built on a lot of good will, cult status buzz and the fact that it scratches a VERY particular itch. There isn't space in the market for FF to become what is now the next biggest guy in a pretty crowded room. Turn based shouldn't just be done because "no one is doing it". There are 1000 ways to do turn based and most of them suck. FFX/X-2 had the last decent iterations of the system in the series and it isn't what SE wants to do in any capacity at all anymore. Final Fantasy is an ARPG series now, and it's been heading that way for a long time.
Even in 2017 a new mainline FF is an event. Persona's current success is built on a lot of good will, cult status buzz and the fact that it scratches a VERY particular itch. There isn't space in the market for FF to become what is now the next biggest guy in a pretty crowded room. Turn based shouldn't just be done because "no one is doing it". There are 1000 ways to do turn based and most of them suck. FFX/X-2 had the last decent iterations of the system in the series and it isn't what SE wants to do in any capacity at all anymore. Final Fantasy is an ARPG series now, and it's been heading that way for a long time.
mortal
Gold Member
I never said it was impossible, and realtime based battle systems are relatively new to the Final Fantasy series.
Square Enix's approach to battles are unique as their teams tend to experiment with the mechanics and rulesets from title to title. Between FFXII & FFXV, they've hardly had as many opportunities at innovating realtime styled systems, especially when compared to tun-based.
Both which have different styles between them. FFXII has cool downs, while FFXV is action based. After FFXV, there are so many directions they can take a realtime based battle system in, with potentially more interesting mechanics. it'd be a real shame to lose that stride now.
I'm just not a fan of the going back to turn-based, just because of nostalgia, or some arbitrary grace period. I'd much rather the decision be based on a more inspired concept in connection to the design philosophy.
Final Fantasy isn't what it is because of turn-based battle systems. It is primarily an RPG series, and that can take any number of forms, other than what we're traditionally familiar with.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Yeah this is the unfortunate truth for people who wants mainline FF to return to classic turn-based system. At the very most we might see some form of hybrid similar to that of XII or XIII at best, but something that is purely turn-based ala X? Not a chance. Personally I'd look elsewhere for turn-based itch. Mainline FF is a goner in this aspect.
Wolf Akela
Member
I just want an FF game that has a battle system that's difficult / forces strategy. You get options out of the wazoo from any mainline FF game, but you're not really compelled to explore beyond the usual "attack + cure". The only time I ever explore other options is when doing challenge runs. I mean, in the great majority of the mainline titles, :
- You only use Attack + Cure spell, except for exploits, or when you're essentially forced to use some other skill.
- Status ailments are useless, except for exploits.
FFX tried to fix those by making nearly every character do something exceptional in battle, putting status effects as an add-on to regular attacks, and not really giving a "Cure All" spell. It had a crafting system, but you're not gonna use it because the game didn't really provide a lot of player support for it. How do I know which enemies drop something? I might as well save all my mats but end up building the same end-game weapons and armor. Casual players will never ever build a Stone/Deathstrike weapon for example, even if they can carry you across the main game.
I've played P3 - P5. Their combat systems are just flatout better. I've used WAY more status attacks in P5 compared to the entirety of my time with FF. The status effects didn't just make some fights easier, they also saved me from gameovers during bad encounters.
SE already does difficulty well in Kingdom Hearts, which is ironic because they look like games tailored for kids. KH can approach DMC DMD levels of difficulty, as well as providing multiple difficulty levels that can suit any player. I just don't know why SE can't do someting similar for FF.
- You only use Attack + Cure spell, except for exploits, or when you're essentially forced to use some other skill.
- Status ailments are useless, except for exploits.
FFX tried to fix those by making nearly every character do something exceptional in battle, putting status effects as an add-on to regular attacks, and not really giving a "Cure All" spell. It had a crafting system, but you're not gonna use it because the game didn't really provide a lot of player support for it. How do I know which enemies drop something? I might as well save all my mats but end up building the same end-game weapons and armor. Casual players will never ever build a Stone/Deathstrike weapon for example, even if they can carry you across the main game.
I've played P3 - P5. Their combat systems are just flatout better. I've used WAY more status attacks in P5 compared to the entirety of my time with FF. The status effects didn't just make some fights easier, they also saved me from gameovers during bad encounters.
SE already does difficulty well in Kingdom Hearts, which is ironic because they look like games tailored for kids. KH can approach DMC DMD levels of difficulty, as well as providing multiple difficulty levels that can suit any player. I just don't know why SE can't do someting similar for FF.
mortal
Gold Member
I'm not reaching at all, you're misreading me entirely. Final Fantasy as a series isn't as tied down to one type of identity when compared to other titles. The series owes it's staying power to reinvention, which is why the fan base is as big and as varied as it is.
I encourage Square Enix to keep innovating and experimenting with new ideas and approaches to design. Since realtime is new territory for the series, I'd much rather they continue to explore that arena instead of revisiting turn based.
Japanmanx3
Member
Spin it off with WoFF. Let each mainline be fresh!
Karsticles
Member
Where are my games with Chrono Trigger combat?
It already happened with cold steel 3 which is a shame because the UI takes more space than it should and in P5s case looks like a mess
Literally came out this week.
The Dude
Member
But why isn't experimenting to make turn based deeper and more stylized absolutely off the table? I don't get that... What I don't get is gamers enjoying one aspect of combat but totally hating another, that makes no sense to me. I love real time combat and sure I'll play many of them, even FF games with real time combat. But i can also say I love Turn based and I say if 1 out of every 2 or 3 final fantasy games are turn based that'd be awesome. But some of you are just hellbent on not even entertaining the thought.
And just because ff is experimenting with real time combat doesn't negate the fact that hundreds of games use real time combat and do it a hell of a lot better because it's what they simply started off doing.
Turn based and real time have both been around for 30 years. They both have their place, but games that were rooted in turn based should try to make it even better while retaining what made it special to begin with.
LowParry
Member
You should at least give FF14 a chance. The most FF you can get currently.
arturo2666
Banned
This is a weird want imo. Since none of the final fantasy games are related, why not just slap a "Final Fantasy XVI" sticker over the title on your persona 5 case? You really want chocobos or something?
Maybe he wants a game that doesn't look worse than an RPG maker game
The Dude
Member
OniBarubary
Banned
NoctisVsStar
Member
It's a rock paper scissor combat that exploits weaknesses at least that's how I see it.
I mean can you replace Persona 5 in the title of the thread with any other turned based JRPG?
I guess RPS is different than normal attacks constantly.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Square actually found the best modern turn-based battle system in Bravely Default. A series ironically booted out from the Final Fantasy franchise.
BD is true FF imho.
BD is true FF imho.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
What do you like more about P4G's combat over P5? If you don't mind me asking?
If you boil it down, basically. The real greatness about Persona 3-5's combat is how it ties in with the social sim elements.
Pretty much everything you do in the social sim part ties into the combat in some way.
P5 specifically brought back a lot of stuff from the SMT games that left in P3. P5 also several QoL improvements that make the game a lot less tedious. Combat also feels a lot faster than in P3 and P4.
NoctisVsStar
Member
P5 does refine and adds minor tweaks here and there which makes the game enjoyable. But like you said the social sim (visual novel aspect) plus the combat is what makes the game good.
I do like the fact that FF constantly shakes things up for better or worse they take Chances.
Is this an episode of "I think action RPG are a recent thing"?
mortal
Gold Member
You're asking me these questions as if I have the answers to all of them lol. Look, I just stated what I personally rather see from the series in the near future. What is or is not on the table is ultimately up to the teams at Square Enix.
I'm a huge FF fan, which means I enjoy turn-based battle systems. The Final Fantasy series has a lot of games with turn-based battle systems, so I'd really like to see what they can do with real-time. It's much more exciting to me what they can potentially do with battles, especially as console GPU and CPU, and memory continue to improve.
Plus, it's not like Square Enix has completely abandoned turn-based design in their games.
Fucking hell, are we talking about Final Fantasy or the entire gaming industry? I was specifically talking in reference to Final Fantasy.
I feel like I'm going in circles.
I wouldn't call it rock paper scissors because the elemental affinities are unique for each demon/shadow.
SciencePilot
Member
As much as I'd like something along those lines too, I do feel like that ship has sailed. I feel like we should be grateful we even got Persona 5 as it is.