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[Freki]

The thing is, an enormous number of games companies do this, but my general impression is that people want to pick and choose about which ones they think are 'shady'.

Because everybody is doing it doesn't make it acceptable. I can't speak for others but I personally trust impressions on this site by orders of magnitude more than what I read (if I read it at all) on gaming media sites.

 

[SapientWolf]

His single example that the games media is compromised at a "more fundamental level" is that he had one editor tell him to change a score combined with unsubstantiated speculation?

We had Gerstmann-gate as well. Those examples illustrate the there's more to reviews at certain outlets than the honest opinion of the reviewers. So it's possible (if not likely) that the greater context of the game's release (including the pre-release hype) is taken into account when the score gets drafted up. And that's essentially the core of the problem here, only it's translated to previews.

I'm not saying that games press aren't allowed to get excited about something but I wish that excitement had more to do with a game's quality than its marketing or development budget, or which platform it's on. I think Titanfall absolutely deserves its hype, but if it was an indie game from some unknown devs the press would probably ignore it. That's the unfortunate downside to this.

As a writer, if lines in your review/preview sound like you're selling something, with no solid reasoning or justification behind them, then it's probably a good time to do a stop and think.

 

[Linkenski]

Yup, all I can say is that I feel pretty disappointed by how the gaming industry has turned out to be after this last generation :-/

With a game like Titanfall, I understand it'll probably be the new halo or CoD killer when it comes to MP, but I can't understand the massive hype you see about it from Geoff Keighley or IGN etc.

It's almost as if EA paid someone under the table ^_^

 

[Quadraphonic]

Of course Respawn didn't pay anybody off. That's EA's job.

 

[Ooccoo]

Most gaming writers are/were fanboys. Also, they're not journalists, and some of them are not even good writers either.

 

[BrittonPeele]

I get the point about "playing to the crowd". Maybe the majority that read IGN don't know how simple it is to hook up their pc to their TV and play from their couch (I doubt it but its possible). The question for me becomes should you be doing that as a journalist? Should you report on things that you think your audience wants to hear or should just report what you know and let the audience decide if they like it or not? I prefer the latter but maybe that's just me.

1) You, unfortunately, overestimate the majority of Internet users. While it's easy to look just at certain comment sections and forums (like GAF) and assume most readers are more technologically savvy than your average citizen, it's simply not the case.

2) I don't write for IGN, but I wouldn't call this a "what the audience wants to hear" kind of thing. That statement implies something like, "Our readers are Nintendo fanboys so they want to hear only pro-Nintendo things." In reality, it's more of, "Our readers are never going to spend $800 on a gaming PC that they can put in their living room, so we're not going to focus on the high-end PC stuff as much, because they simply don't care."

It's a bit like if you're running a regional newspaper for a city in Texas, but instead of local city news you only covered news from cities in California. Maybe those California stories are more interesting, but your regional readers want news about their region, good or bad. They don't care as much about stuff that doesn't apply to them.

I don't know how the editorial process works at IGN but if it were me, I wouldn't let you write about Xb1 exclusive since you seem to really like the Xbox and their products (which is fine, we all like products) and I just don't feel you give a honest critique of Xb1 since you appear to like their product so much. It just feels weird when you write either previews or reviews about Xbox games because like I said earlier it sounds more like a promotion and less like a review or critique of the product.

News outlets and reviewers cannot win in that scenario, though. Because every time a reviewer reviews something negatively, the criticism is, "You made someone who hates RPGs review an RPG! That's bad journalism!" If it's too positive, people say, "You made a Nintendo fanboy review the new Donkey Kong game! That's bad journalism!" Either way, there are people who don't like the content you've produced. And you can't say, "Just hire people who have no biases whatsoever," because I'm sure you know that such people don't exist. Everybody has likes and dislikes, as you said.

::EDIT::

We had Gerstmann-gate as well. Those examples illustrate the there's more to reviews at certain outlets than the honest opinion of the reviewers. So it's possible (if not likely) that the greater context of the game's release (including the pre-release hype) is taken into account when the score gets drafted up. And that's essentially the core of the problem here, only it's translated to previews.

I've been reviewing games for years and I've never, ever seen this happen, for what it's worth. Not for reviews, anyway (which is most of what I do. I rarely write previews). Even Jeff Gerstmann would tell you as much, I'm sure.

 

[Memorabilia]

Real, objective investigative journalism is extinct in the United States due to a handful of powerful companies which own most of the major media sources. I'm not sure why the gaming biz would be exempt from this reality. Money is money, regardless of the industry. Game preview coverage from major outlets increasingly has the feel of being little more than an extension of company X/Y/Z's PR and hype machine. There are still plenty of people who try to do their best and maintain some integrity, but I would guess it is becoming increasingly difficult to do so without worrying about keeping one's job.

 

[gogosox8]

1) You, unfortunately, overestimate the majority of Internet users. While it's easy to look just at certain comment sections and forums (like GAF) and assume most readers are more technologically savvy than your average citizen, it's simply not the case

If they know how to hook up a 360/ps3/ps4/xb1 to their tv, then they can hook up a pc. The only issue would be having enough money to afford a gaming pc, which is expensive, but I highly doubt they couldn't hook it up.

2) I don't write for IGN, but I wouldn't call this a "what the audience wants to hear" kind of thing. That statement implies something like, "Our readers are Nintendo fanboys so they want to hear only pro-Nintendo things." In reality, it's more of, "Our readers are never going to spend $800 on a gaming PC that they can put in their living room, so we're not going to focus on the high-end PC stuff as much, because they simply don't care."
It's a bit like if you're running a regional newspaper for a city in Texas, but instead of local city news you only covered news from cities in California. Maybe those California stories are more interesting, but your regional readers want news about their region, good or bad. They don't care as much about stuff that doesn't apply to them.

Well, honestly I wouldn't have an issue with that but that's not what he was saying. He said that even if you have a gaming pc that could max out this game, you should run out and buy a xb1 b/c this game is made for playing on a couch and not for playing at a desktop even though you can easily do this with a pc. Playing to the crowd would be more like what you alluded to not saying something totally false because that's what your audience what to hear. Like I said, it sounds like he's promoting the xbox instead of talking about the game itself and talking about his experience playing on the xbox.

News outlets and reviewers cannot win in that scenario, though. Because every time a reviewer reviews something negatively, the criticism is, "You made someone who hates RPGs review an RPG! That's bad journalism!" If it's too positive, people say, "You made a Nintendo fanboy review the new Donkey Kong game! That's bad journalism!" Either way, there are people who don't like the content you've produced. And you can't say, "Just hire people who have no biases whatsoever," because I'm sure you know that such people don't exist. Everybody has likes and dislikes, as you said.

To some extent this is correct. Their will always be someone who isn't happy that you did this or said that. But that's sort of the nature of the beast honestly. A journalist has to know that their going to write and say stuff that's going to piss people off and be okay with that. I appreciate Ryan coming into the thread and talking about his perspective but I just don't think a journalist should be encouraging people to buy products which is part of what he wrote. Give your opinion and let me figure out if I want to buy it or not but don't say I should buy this or buy that. That just looks bad.

I've been reviewing games for years and I've never, ever seen this happen, for what it's worth. Not for reviews, anyway (which is most of what I do. I rarely write previews). Even Jeff Gerstmann would tell you as much, I'm sure.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen just because it never happened to you or haven't seen it happen to anyone. I would imagine you would want to keep something like that hidden or the internet would explode (see: Doritosgate). So it might have happen and you may have just been kept out of the loop.

 

[danwarb]

Yup, all I can say is that I feel pretty disappointed by how the gaming industry has turned out to be after this last generation :-/

With a game like Titanfall, I understand it'll probably be the new halo or CoD killer when it comes to MP, but I can't understand the massive hype you see about it from Geoff Keighley or IGN etc.

It's almost as if EA paid someone under the table ^_^

Or this game, from a small-ish team, is actually pretty good. You know, it's not unusual for different people to like different things.

As for the quote in the OP. Titanfall does get relatively hectic.


Wow, having read more of it, this thread is pretty bad.

 

[polyh3dron]

Dude, seriously? Every fucking day in this forum there are people railing on every single site out there and talking about how the press is bought. Someone saying people on gaf, or IN THIS THREAD don't think the press is bought is absolute BULLSHIT.

Holy shit dude, you need to calm down and actually read the thread.

Show me ONE post from this thread that suggests that RESPAWN, the DEVELOPER, is directly coercing or influencing the media in their coverage of Titanfall. As I have already pointed out but feel the need to repeat since you have obviously ignored my previous posts ITT, the argument is that EA and/or Microsoft have been the ones pulling the strings because it is the publisher and console manufacturer who usually deal in this handling of media.

 

[BrittonPeele]

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen just because it never happened to you or haven't seen it happen to anyone. I would imagine you would want to keep something like that hidden or the internet would explode (see: Doritosgate). So it might have happen and you may have just been kept out of the loop.

Sure, but I get around enough that I'm pretty sure I would have seen it at least once if it was really the "likely" result of game coverage. Maybe it wouldn't have been while I was personally writing a review for a gaming-centric outlet (I freelance for sites like GameSpot, but admittedly I don't review most "bigger" releases like Titanfall as a freelancer), but I have enough talks with other industry people that I believe I would have heard about it if nothing else.

Also, I know these "conspiracy" talks almost always focus on just the enthusiast press (sites like IGN, GameSpot, Destructoid, whatever), but I'm also an editor at one of the nation's largest newspapers (The Dallas Morning News), where I head up all of our game coverage. If publishers really exercise as much control over positive/negative coverage as some people seem to think they do, then I guess said publishers just ignore the "mainstream media" altogether because again, I haven't seen it.

::EDIT::

If they know how to hook up a 360/ps3/ps4/xb1 to their tv, then they can hook up a pc. The only issue would be having enough money to afford a gaming pc, which is expensive, but I highly doubt they couldn't hook it up.

It's both, honestly. I've definitely run into people who play games but have never even considered the possibility of connecting a PC to a TV. Some don't realize modern PCs use HDMI. And heck, as scary as it is, there are the people out there who will pay a store like Best Buy to hook up a game system for them. I think those people are crazy, but they're out there.

 

[jschreier]

With money changing hands directly? Probably not...
But what about access especially if it's exclusive?
What about redesigning your website in the style of a console gui?
You can't blame people for being suspicious...

And I personally find it funny when "journalists" (remove quotation marks for jschreier ^^) are talking about the wall between editorial and advertising like this would solve all problems.
It's not like the "journalists" don't look at their own site. It's not like they can't see who's paying their salary. You'll have to have a lot of self control to not be influenced even on a subliminal level by this.

I don't really think many professional (ie: full-time, paid) reporters or reviewers care what advertisements are on their companies' websites. Honestly. You should be more concerned about the more subtle influences of relationships and access and all of the things that any journalist has to deal with in any field. Ultimately, the best move for educated gamers is to A) pay attention and find writers they trust; B) call out BS when they see it; C) not get bogged down in ridiculous bribery conspiracy theory territory.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

He should name names!

To be fair, he called out Future Publishing on a whole lotta dodgy bullshit in his twitter rant. No-one really gave a toss. Nothing came of it.

 

[Asgaro]

Why do people listen to people who play games for a living? Why is their opinion somehow more important than the opinion of those on forums?
- They rush through a game to meet the deadline.
- They can't possibly notice all the flaws.

I compare the concept of "reading game reviews" to the concept of still going to stores to buy computer magazines, while you can read all the info you need online.

What I mean is: reading game reviews is rather outdated. And there are better ways.

- Never pre-order a game.
- Wait to buy a certain game till around a week after release.
- Check a lot of unedited Youtube gameplay.
- Read up on forums everywhere to extract the general consensus.

You won't make mistakes that way.
I mean, it works for me: I complete around 90% of the games I buy I would say. ( http://steamcommunity.com/id/Asgaro/games?tab=all )

 

[Luft Vanship]

This quote from IGN's Titanfall preview cracks me up every time:



You WILL buy an XBO for Titanfall, even if you have a PC capable rig for it, because REASONS! Xbox ecosystem! YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK!

Of course people will interpret calling out absurd self-perpetuating media driven overhype as a critique of Titanfall's quality, but it's not. I said this same shit over the ridiculous way IGN jerked off all over GTA5 during its Grand Theft Auto week.

There is no such thing as perspective apparently with these guys.

Ryan McCaffrey in a nutshell

 

[DoktorEvil]

So guys, if games journalism isn't reliable, then what is the solution??

C'mon, we are all somewhat competent.

 

[TomShoe]

Why do people listen to people who play games for a living? Why is their opinion somehow more important than the opinion of those on forums?
- They rush through a game to meet the deadline.
- They can't possibly notice all the flaws.

I compare the concept of "reading game reviews" to the concept of still going to stores to buy computer magazines, while you can read all the info you need online.

What I mean is: reading game reviews is rather outdated. And there are better ways.

- Never pre-order a game.
- Wait to buy a certain game till around a week after release.
- Check a lot of unedited Youtube gameplay.
- Read up on forums everywhere to extract the general consensus.

You won't make mistakes that way.
I mean, it works for me: I complete around 90% of the games I buy I would say. ( http://steamcommunity.com/id/Asgaro/games?tab=all )

Better yet: Wait until it's on sale.

I just picked up The Last of Us and Beyond Two Souls for $45 this week. If you're not 100% sure that you're going to burn hours on a game, never buy it at full price. I hope people have the same sentiment after getting burned on the malaises that was Call of Duty: Ghosts and Aliens: Colonial Marines.

 

[Helscream]

Most gaming writers are/were fanboys. Also, they're not journalists, and some of them are not even good writers either.

Reading this reminds me of a interview David Jaffe had a while back. Despite some of the flak he gets from GAF he made a good point which is basically most journalist act like fanboys and not journalist. So instead of putting on their critical thinking caps they instead jump onto the hype train.

On the subject of bribery I am skeptical. It is completely possible, but at the same time not likely that a majority of the gaming press are all shills. I truly believe the core issue is journalist cease to be journalist when they board the hype train with all the fans.

I don't see shills and crooked journalist taking bribery under the table in the gaming press. What I see in the gaming press are abunch of enthusiast fanboys who fail miserably at being journalist.

 

[Zakalwe]

I don't see shills and crooked journalist taking bribery under the table in the gaming press. What I see in the gaming press are abunch of enthusiast fanboys who fail miserably at being journalist.

This is much closer to the reality of it. There are some great writers out there, there's some great journalism, but there's also a lot of low quality content too.

 

[Bedlam]

Ryan McCaffrey in a nutshell

From the latest "IGN talks bs again" thread (it deserves a place in this thread):

No comment necessary I think.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Reading this reminds me of a interview David Jaffe had a while back. Despite some of the flak he gets from GAF he made a good point which is basically most journalist act like fanboys and not journalist. So instead of putting on their critical thinking caps they instead jump onto the hype train.

On the subject of bribery I am skeptical. It is completely possible, but at the same time not likely that a majority of the gaming press are all shills. I truly believe the core issue is journalist cease to be journalist when they board the hype train with all the fans.

I don't see shills and crooked journalist taking bribery under the table in the gaming press. What I see in the gaming press are abunch of enthusiast fanboys who fail miserably at being journalist.

It's the antagonistic responce to this realization being well-known that gets me during Resolutiongate.

Remember 1up during its glory days? You had KNOWN fanboys on there. "Oh, Shane's defending the PS3 again!" "It's almost TOO good!" Etc.

Thing is, this was a known fact they had their beloved IP/devs/platforms. They didn't jump on the earlier GAF, or their own forums, or whatever smoke signals or sky writing people used before Twitter fighting with the nastiest attempts at belittling their opposition for even daring to point out the emperor has no clothes.

Can we at least get back to that? No Pulitzer asperations, no cold, clinical expectations for any written piece, just honesty. Maybe then good game journos and good guys like Schreier and Navarro will stop getting shit on for things they didn't do and then jump into the hail of rotten fruit and eggs meant for the guilty.

 

[SneakyStephan]

So guys, if games journalism isn't reliable, then what is the solution??

C'mon, we are all somewhat competent.

demos
no review embargoes
killing this horrible pre order culture that is enabling all this bullshit information control
don't day one or buy games blindly, wait for the launch hype and false scarcity hype to go away so you can make an informed decision based on reliable impressions

Right now publishers control 100 percent of the message leading up to launch, and make sure that most of the sales are done before the consumers can get any other information on their product
and we as gamers are enabling this method

we all share responsibility, gamers, publishers and games 'journalists' , but noone takes responsibility as there is no accountability whatsoever

 

[ps3ud0]

The gaming press really have to look at themselves when an entity like Fox News is considered more informed and less biased . The unprofessionalism really undermines the whole gaming industry

Main reason NeoGAF works so well is that ultimately through mass consensus you get a far better made opinion, we just sometimes act like monkeys on typewriters to get there though

ps3ud0 8)

 

[jett]

From the latest "IGN talks bs again" thread (it deserves a place in this thread):



No comment necessary I think.

lol.

I mean, wow.

 

[MikeXXIeaf]

With money changing hands directly? Probably not...
But what about access especially if it's exclusive?
What about redesigning your website in the style of a console gui?
You can't blame people for being suspicious...

And I personally find it funny when "journalists" (remove quotation marks for jschreier ^^) are talking about the wall between editorial and advertising like this would solve all problems.
It's not like the "journalists" don't look at their own site. It's not like they can't see who's paying their salary. You'll have to have a lot of self control to not be influenced even on a subliminal level by this.

Companies don't need to pay editorials to support their game or hardware. They're advertising to you in much more clever ways.

 

[King_Moc]

From the latest "IGN talks bs again" thread (it deserves a place in this thread):



No comment necessary I think.

Does this guy actually do reviews?

 

[Freeman]

EA didn't tell Respawn about the MS exclusivity deal so they could have bough people behind Respawn's back (assuming Respawn was telling the truth). There is enough precedent for us to suspect something and the general game media reaction and effort to promote Titanfall does raise questions, the fact that they went out of their way to deny it doesn't help.

What surprises me is people acting like as if EA/MS buying some favorable opinions/ undisclosed promotion would be something new.

 

[Abdiel]

So I keep adblocker+ turned off on any sites I visit that I want to contribute to them, like GAF, and I used to on IGN because the Sony guys have generally been pretty reasonable/willing to be harsh with Sony for screwing up. Imagine my surprise when turning it back on made the entire XboxOne section vanish.

(bah dum tish)

*crickets*

 

[DoktorEvil]

demos
no review embargoes
killing this horrible pre order culture that is enabling all this bullshit information control
don't day one or buy games blindly, wait for the launch hype and false scarcity hype to go away so you can make an informed decision based on reliable impressions

Right now publishers control 100 percent of the message leading up to launch, and make sure that most of the sales are done before the consumers can get any other information on their product
and we as gamers are enabling this method

we all share responsibility, gamers, publishers and games 'journalists' , but noone takes responsibility as there is no accountability whatsoever

The preorder culture can be attributed to Gamestop enabling the preorder for swag BS.
I hate the fact that at day 1, I have to commit money in order for me to get full content, if that, then shell out more for the full game experience, all for shit like a keychain or a lava lamp or something else incredibly useless. Why can't I get my manuals like I used to? Publishers want to reach into my pocket before I even enjoy the game.

I guess I dont buy hype, because I'm always a secondhand purchaser. I rarely buy new, only if I believe the game has something that I will enjoy, and if I get a free experience, I buy all the extra to compensate to the developer, if I like their work.

I think most of GAF doesn't buy into Day 1 hype, at least the 20-30 something crowd. We know better than to spend money up front for half an experience. SF x Tekken confirms that belief.

Demos do jack shit, and often they reveal badly the flaws of a game. Lightning Returns demo has just confirmed that I wont even consider a purchase. Why would I when the experience of FF is reduced to "share on Facebook"?

I really, really wish that this thing of ours, gaming, went back to how Nintendo had it, with a monopoly. Now, I'm all for free markets and such, but the quality control from Nintendo was magnitudes higher, and the cart system ensures your games LAST, which I cant say about CDs and DVDs and Digital Copies.