WAR recon zero
Banned
They advocate the use for the average joe every 5 seconds., so it's damn important.
Linux Distros are not ready for average joes, not a single one of them yet,
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
If we consider Newell's history porting Doom to Win to show it can be a gaming platf.
- Thread starter angular graphics
- Start date
They advocate the use for the average joe every 5 seconds., so it's damn important.
Linux Distros are not ready for average joes, not a single one of them yet,
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
The moment someone gets a "missing repository" error and can't install something they can on Windows they'll just switch back.
That's not that inconceivable. For a while, lots of PCs running DOS. Less were running Windows 95, and as mentioned, many who were running Windows were running the DOS executable of DOOM anyway.
What!? No. Nonono. Gotta call BS on that one. MS products back then were serviceable at best, a disaster at their worst. MS gets crapped on now, but their products are a quantum leap in quality from what their standards were then. Nicely designed UIs, satiability and speed are all things that are true of MS Products in the past 5 years that you can't remotely say about MS of the 90s.
I haven't seen developers advocating it, just Linux desktop users. Users are usually enthusiast, so they feel others are wrong for using something else. I'm sure Linus Torvalds doesn't care if you use Windows or not.
Correct. The whole "year of the Linux Desktop" has been a meme for FARRRRR longer than "Year of the PS<X>/X-box <X>/Nintendo <X>" has been.
Harbin said:
You just answered yourself:
So then... "what is the point of Steam OS/Linux off-shoot for Desktop/Living Rooms/non-servers?"
Gabe really should've came out swinging with the answer to this question just as he had with his enthusiasm toward Doom. Unfortunately he isn't talking to just "Microsoft" now, he's talking to the world at large and the world at large needs more convincing than "oh hey we're doing a distro of Linux! IT'S GONNA BE AWESOME!
!" to think it's awesome.(Also it'd be funny if Gabe/Valve ported iD/Epic titles to Linux again.)
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Yep. From a consumers point of view. Linux is horrible. I've installed it on quite a few machines and do anything other then a basic install. I've been forced to bring up a terminal window a punch in a bunch of obscure commands. From a consumer point of view. It's a nightmare.
I do know of one developer who refuses to develop for it because of the different UI's in all these variants of Linux.
Linux has no UI. Its a kernel. There are hundreds of different UIs to use.
edit: beaten
Or you can just CLICK on package manager and CLICK on items to install stuff.
I can't honestly take any post like this seriously since ease of use has changed dramatically the past decade.
While the terminal is definitely for the advanced user, there's a GUI for just about everything now. You would have had a point 10 years ago but not now.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I installed Ubuntu last week and a get the specific package to work required 10 minutes of Bash-ing into a terminal window.
I've got a background in Solaris/Unix so it's not that daunting to me. But from a average consumer. Linux is a nightmare.
Wrong. Most people are gonna start with DX because MS supports it well. Good opengl documentation is hard to find. Disorganization is what hurts opengl more than anything else.
This is the main problem with Linux. Most likely you are gonna have to use some sort of command-line prompt. Most people that use computers don't want to see them.
The point of the article: once an OS didn't have any games and then it did and now it's the biggest OS in the world.
Not the point of the article: Linux is ugly. It's confusing. Once my sister installed Linux and her hair fell out. Who likes Linux? No one likes Linux. Coding on Linux is hard. How is something even installed on Linux? I don't think it's possible without typing something. People only like to swipe. Where are the games on Linux? Linus Torvalds once told me to suck his dick. Ubuntu? More like P-U buntu (it stinks!)
Not the point of the article: Linux is ugly. It's confusing. Once my sister installed Linux and her hair fell out. Who likes Linux? No one likes Linux. Coding on Linux is hard. How is something even installed on Linux? I don't think it's possible without typing something. People only like to swipe. Where are the games on Linux? Linus Torvalds once told me to suck his dick. Ubuntu? More like P-U buntu (it stinks!)
I could care less if its running on a linux kernel or not, the main question for me is what is the true benifit here? I own one PC with a ton of Windows software that I need. What would be the incentive to do a dual boot over just using Steam on Windows? Right now it runs perfectly, and with a wireless controller and a long HDMI cable I can play on my TV just fine. At least in my position I see no benifit.
I like Linux, but I can see the average person thinking the things you posted.
I used Ubuntu last year. Still had to bring up a terminal to do something that would have just taken a few clicks in windows, it still didn't have some of the programs I wanted, and still wasn't really user friendly at all. It's not a good OS for the person that just wants their shit to work without needing to google everything.
WAR recon zero
Banned
Full stop no.
there are somethings only available via command and not Package installers
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Android is built from a Linux kernel, so it technically counts as Linux.more like
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
"MS may cut into our revenue stream with the Windows store and we don't want that." doesn't sound very good.
Nope.
Got a Fedora machine sitting right here next to me for work. Still easier to get shit installed and running on my Windows 7 box when I gotta build labs.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
I'd have to agree with this, but more off-hands than on. Remember reading about how Windows 95 had no abstraction layer btwn the OS and hardware devices, so the user could write directly to the hardware.
Which is pretty cool in a way, but then there was some virus written to take advantage of that and killed it from happening ever again lol.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
What package? It's hard to take you seriously when you won't provide an example.
Again, what exactly were you trying to do?
Are those things the average user would need to do?
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
It was a protein sequencing application (DNA) that normally ran on Redhat which I was trying to install on Ubuntu.
But the point remains. I've got a Mac and that is run on a version of Unix. At no point do I have to jump through loops to get stuff to work.
Linux is simply not ready for the average consumer unless it's boxed in tight such that the consumer can't fiddle with it.
This
http://askubuntu.com/questions/211136/get-the-audio-from-line-in-to-output-to-the-speaker
And it still worked terribly after I got it working (there was audio lag that isn't there when I do this in windows). This stuff should be enabled by default or just a few clicks away. But no, it's complex as hell. I honestly see no reason to use linux if I have to jump through hoops to use such a basic computer function.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
No, no it doesn't. You were trying to use an application for what appears to an end-user to be another OS entirely. It's the fault of the developer for not bothering to package a version for Debian.
What kind of average user needs that functionality
How would you do that on Windows?
Doom 95 was a terrible port that nobody used due to the fact that it was slow, buggy, and you could run DOS Doom just as easily. If it weren't for Microsoft's big attempt to make it a PC pack in of sorts nobody would have touched it.
Also, DOS games constituted the majority of PC releases until at least early 1997 (Quake was a DOS game); the fact is that Windows also happened to function as a convenient and 100 percent compatible DOS wrapper while it was going through its growing pains as a gaming platform. Linux, on the other hand, has a very small library of native titles (that incidentally consists partially of id games) and depends on emulation or media streaming to produce anything resembling a sizeable library.
I am not saying that this definitely won't work out but Gabe and co. really have their work cut out for them and this is nothing like Windows.
Also, DOS games constituted the majority of PC releases until at least early 1997 (Quake was a DOS game); the fact is that Windows also happened to function as a convenient and 100 percent compatible DOS wrapper while it was going through its growing pains as a gaming platform. Linux, on the other hand, has a very small library of native titles (that incidentally consists partially of id games) and depends on emulation or media streaming to produce anything resembling a sizeable library.
I am not saying that this definitely won't work out but Gabe and co. really have their work cut out for them and this is nothing like Windows.
Lol no. Windows works fine on self built PC's. If Linux doesn't, then Linux sucks.
BebopMcJigglypuff
Member
I use linux for work a lot and I must admit, it is actually the games that holds me back from using linux at home. I kind of hate osx, but I have no real love for windows, especially with 8 and going forward... it just happens to play games better right now. I know I am not the average consumer though, if I can't fiddle with it I want no part of it.
cheezcake
Member
The issue you've described is unrelated to the linux kernel itself though, IIRC Redhat and Ubuntu use different package file types so of course it won't be natively compatible.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
From a consumer point of view. There fact that there are millions of flavours of Linux shouldn't need to be of interest to me at all.
I'd like Linux to succeed but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone in it's current state. Maybe SteamOS will (hopefully) change that.
slicedmass
Banned
Anyone remember Lindows: Shit this thread reminded me of that for some reason.
Schweinehund
Member
petran79
Banned
at that time Windows 95 was mass pirated too, but Microsoft didnt mind since that helped them dominate the market. also as a gaming platform, Windows 95 was a mess compared to MS-DOS or Windows 3.1 Only with Windows 98 were you able to play DirectX games without many issues.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Gabe trying to compare what happened with early Windows to what he's doing now is so misguided.... dude needs to stop living in the past.
You gotta have a better reason to make me dual boot from a platform that works pretty much perfectly fine to one that probably isn't 100% perfect at all... then just conspiracy theory MS is going to be a SUPER HORRIBLE CLOSED GARDEN OF EVIL.
You gotta have a better reason to make me dual boot from a platform that works pretty much perfectly fine to one that probably isn't 100% perfect at all... then just conspiracy theory MS is going to be a SUPER HORRIBLE CLOSED GARDEN OF EVIL.
Not to resort to tag quoting, but where is he asking you to dual boot anything?
It is noteworthy though that, very much unlike e.g. 5 years ago, there are probably significantly more OpenGL games in development right now than DirectX games.
Flying Toaster
Member
Junior member going to junior... honestly this post has no purpose whatsoever.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
He's not, but that's just the thing... and yes I realize the idea is for a 2nd PC or whatnot for the TV... but why bother really.. it's not hard to output from my current PC to my TV if I want.. just takes and HDMI cable ran over too it. I got a wireless controller.
This feels like an Ouya type solution to a problem that doesn't really exist outside people thinking it does.
I have no doubt some people will jump on board, because well.. they hate Windows or MS or love Linux.. but for most people..there's a perfectly fine functioning solution that works right now.
I'm no huge MS fan, but I never got the hate to them trying to have their own store. Everyone else get's to have their cake and eat it too.. but not MS?
This feels like an Ouya type solution to a problem that doesn't really exist outside people thinking it does.
I have no doubt some people will jump on board, because well.. they hate Windows or MS or love Linux.. but for most people..there's a perfectly fine functioning solution that works right now.
I'm no huge MS fan, but I never got the hate to them trying to have their own store. Everyone else get's to have their cake and eat it too.. but not MS?
VisceralBowl
Member
What year is it where you come from?
There are an insane number of misconceptions about Linux in this thread. I'm going to try and address a few:
The [G]UI is bad/good/etc: Linux doesn't have a graphical interface. What you are referring to is X, plus one of: Gnome, Unity, KDE, etc. SteamOS will use none of these (unless you install them yourself, presumably). Also, X is bad, but is in the process of being replaced by a much more modern windowing server/client system called Wayland.
Short, easy version: The Linux UI can be anything.
The Linux licensing requires devs to release their source. Not true. Anything binary can run on, and link against, any library without releasing source. They only have to release source if they actually repurpose source code that is licensed such that it requires them to do so. GPL, a common open source code license, requires this. However, MIT, another common open source code license, does not require this. SDL, the code that glues Source Linux games to the OS, is under the zlib license, which does not require this.
Short, easy version: Nobody has to release source code to run on Linux => Games can run on Linux.
SteamOS is just like Windows, Valve is as bad as MS: Kind of true. At this point, Windows allows you to install anything you want, as long as it's not using their modern API. SteamOS is a normal Linux distro, which means it lets you install and modify anything. You could remove Steam, if you wanted to. This does not change the fact that games downloaded via Steam are just as DRM'd as they are on any other OS. We know Linux can never become a walled garden because anyone can fork it and fix that (thanks to aggressive GPL licensing). We can't trust that Windows won't lock out other software in the future (and this is the direction they are going).
Short, easy version: Linux is inherently trustworthy, Windows isn't.
OpenGL is better than DirectX This is not really true. OpenGL is actually a set of standards and extensions, which graphics vendors choose to implement or not as they see fit. In a vacuum, OpenGL specifications supported tessellation before DirectX did. But DirectX is an implementation, which means that they day DirectX10 came out, tessellation was there while OpenGL still just had it "in theory". However, OpenGL has been pulling itself together and getting a lot of support in recent years. Valve is helping with this.
Short, easy version: DirectX implementations are better than OpenGL implementations, but this is changing (thanks to mobile, console, etc).
Full disclosure, I am a daily Linux user with enough familiarity to set up my own GUI (X + xmonad). I'm not a typical user, and I'm not saying that Linux (even Ubuntu) is as easy to handle as Windows or OSX. There is nothing from a technical perspective that prevents this. Moreso, it's an idealogical thing. If everyone in the Linux community was working on GNOME, or KDE, etc, it would probably reach parity with Windows 7 or w/e. But the strength of Linux is also in this case it's weakness: people want different things and work on different things. Linux, when you take the time, will give you a computing experience hand-crafted for you. But you're probably not going to sit down and find top polish.
The [G]UI is bad/good/etc: Linux doesn't have a graphical interface. What you are referring to is X, plus one of: Gnome, Unity, KDE, etc. SteamOS will use none of these (unless you install them yourself, presumably). Also, X is bad, but is in the process of being replaced by a much more modern windowing server/client system called Wayland.
Short, easy version: The Linux UI can be anything.
The Linux licensing requires devs to release their source. Not true. Anything binary can run on, and link against, any library without releasing source. They only have to release source if they actually repurpose source code that is licensed such that it requires them to do so. GPL, a common open source code license, requires this. However, MIT, another common open source code license, does not require this. SDL, the code that glues Source Linux games to the OS, is under the zlib license, which does not require this.
Short, easy version: Nobody has to release source code to run on Linux => Games can run on Linux.
SteamOS is just like Windows, Valve is as bad as MS: Kind of true. At this point, Windows allows you to install anything you want, as long as it's not using their modern API. SteamOS is a normal Linux distro, which means it lets you install and modify anything. You could remove Steam, if you wanted to. This does not change the fact that games downloaded via Steam are just as DRM'd as they are on any other OS. We know Linux can never become a walled garden because anyone can fork it and fix that (thanks to aggressive GPL licensing). We can't trust that Windows won't lock out other software in the future (and this is the direction they are going).
Short, easy version: Linux is inherently trustworthy, Windows isn't.
OpenGL is better than DirectX This is not really true. OpenGL is actually a set of standards and extensions, which graphics vendors choose to implement or not as they see fit. In a vacuum, OpenGL specifications supported tessellation before DirectX did. But DirectX is an implementation, which means that they day DirectX10 came out, tessellation was there while OpenGL still just had it "in theory". However, OpenGL has been pulling itself together and getting a lot of support in recent years. Valve is helping with this.
Short, easy version: DirectX implementations are better than OpenGL implementations, but this is changing (thanks to mobile, console, etc).
Full disclosure, I am a daily Linux user with enough familiarity to set up my own GUI (X + xmonad). I'm not a typical user, and I'm not saying that Linux (even Ubuntu) is as easy to handle as Windows or OSX. There is nothing from a technical perspective that prevents this. Moreso, it's an idealogical thing. If everyone in the Linux community was working on GNOME, or KDE, etc, it would probably reach parity with Windows 7 or w/e. But the strength of Linux is also in this case it's weakness: people want different things and work on different things. Linux, when you take the time, will give you a computing experience hand-crafted for you. But you're probably not going to sit down and find top polish.
Considering how much of the back end they control they have to show a little more responsibility in certain areas they haven't. People haven't made up any issues either cause I don't see how bloat ms never fixes or not having a gaming mode to unload a lot of useless processes is a bad thing for performance. Same can be said for moving to an OS that doesn't have dpc latency problems like windows platform which gets worse the newer the version are. 8 is a POS in terms of I/O latency issues and plenty of people notice the problems it creates from input lag, stuttering, and audio cracking.
Is this a joke? I know NOTHING about Linux and was able to install Ubuntu with ZERO issues.
MrChowderClams
Member
^ The example here is with OpenGL, but you can extend the argument to Linux as well. The core issue with most variants of Linux is that support is often lackluster. If you look at MS, it's an enterprise business that dabbles in the consumer market to fend off low-end disruption. This means that MS crushes as a B2B service organization, with very long-lasting relationships with hardware vendors.
This doesn't mean that SteamOS is doomed out of the box or that Windows is awesome, or anything like that, but it does mean that it's success as a platform hinges on Valve's ability to work and build good relationships with hardware manufacturers like Nvidia and AMD to make sure that driver support is top-notch and above industry standards.
For instance, Apple solves this by having a closed hardware ecosystem that's very well-supported. Even huge companies like Google struggle with device support (anyone who has to deal with Android device update fragmentation can attest to this).
ridethepiggy
Banned
You do realize that Valve doesn't ban people from their purchased content, right? If you were to file a chargeback you simply are limited to what you can buy going forward until the issue is revolved. You still have access to all of your games.
CrashPrime
Member
The user interface (SteamOS) isn't really the main problem here is it?
I (maybe incorrectly) assumed that AMD/nVidia do not write good drivers for Linux for their graphics cards.
I also (maybe incorrectly) assumed that most games are made with DirectX making it near impossible for a comparable Linux port.
Am I wrong here? AMD/nVidia can surely put together better drivers for Linux if that's really a problem, but what about DirectX?
I (maybe incorrectly) assumed that AMD/nVidia do not write good drivers for Linux for their graphics cards.
I also (maybe incorrectly) assumed that most games are made with DirectX making it near impossible for a comparable Linux port.
Am I wrong here? AMD/nVidia can surely put together better drivers for Linux if that's really a problem, but what about DirectX?
angular graphics
Banned
1) Drivers are an issue, Valve have been working with vendors, nvidia especially have been very helpful. More work will be needed for sure.
2) The latest version of OpenGL is just as capable as DX, lack of features is not an issue.
GAF has a hard time seeing that the majority of people are not hardcore gamers or that a lot of people have moved onto other means of gaming
Using articles that talk about sparking these huge revolutions when really all the pieces were in place beforehand and a very smart decision was made doesn't really provide much insight
Not dissing valve just saying seems like there's a disconnect in wishful thinking and mistaking hindsight for foresight
all that aside steam OS to me is what I hope is that next big thing
Using articles that talk about sparking these huge revolutions when really all the pieces were in place beforehand and a very smart decision was made doesn't really provide much insight
Not dissing valve just saying seems like there's a disconnect in wishful thinking and mistaking hindsight for foresight
all that aside steam OS to me is what I hope is that next big thing