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If we consider Newell's history porting Doom to Win to show it can be a gaming platf.
- Thread starter angular graphics
- Start date
CrashPrime
Member
1) Drivers are an issue, Valve have been working with vendors, nvidia especially have been very helpful. More work will be needed for sure.
2) The latest version of OpenGL is just as capable as DX, lack of features is not an issue.
As non-programmer/non-game maker, am I incorrect to say that games that HAVE been made with DirectX won't work without a major re-design process?
I mean, writing a Doom port/hack for Windows is a little different than making DirectX games work using OpenGL instead isn't it? That's the comparison this thread is trying to make? Of course new games can be made to use OpenGL, but past ones?
As non-programmer/non-game maker, am I incorrect to say that games that HAVE been made with DirectX won't work without a major re-design process?
I mean, writing a Doom port/hack for Windows is a little different than making DirectX games work using OpenGL instead isn't it? That's the comparison this thread is trying to make? Of course new games can be made to use OpenGL, but past ones?
There are two ways to go about this. The right way, which is often called a "native" port, takes work. OpenGL and DirectX have quite similar features sets and APIs these days, so it's not as bad as it would have been years ago, but it is still hard work.
The other option is what's called a "wrapper". This is how many games on OSX and Linux work today. The most famous wrapper is WINE, which is used under many different names by companies such as Cider, Transgaming, Crossover, etc. In this case, every time a programmer calls DirectX, that call is translated to an equivalent OpenGL call. This causes performance and compatibility problems, but is still pretty fast. This is a lot less work for the developers.
What's weird, new, and unknown, is Valve's wrapper. They've said that they wrote their own DirectX -> OpenGL layer for Source games, and did not go the "native" route. This might have only been true in the Source Mac days, or may still be true today. They haven't released this or talked about it in any depth. If they are still using a wrapper, and this wrapper is generalizeable, then we're in for a crazy ride, as L4D2 and TF2 run faster on Linux than Windows. A wrapper providing equal or better performance and with active developer support from Valve would be enough to solve this problem.
I do know of one developer who refuses to develop for it because of the different UI's in all these variants of Linux.
I don't understand how the user's choice of UI should impact the usage or development of an application. The UI shouldn't change anything functionality-wise in the application itself. Or do you mean the different toolkits that are available like QT and GTK? In that case you'd have dependencies on the specific toolkit so when a user installs your application it also installs the toolkit with it if it's not installed. Just because one runs Gnome desktop (GTK) doesn't mean they can't run QT applications.
The issue you've described is unrelated to the linux kernel itself though, IIRC Redhat and Ubuntu use different package file types so of course it won't be natively compatible.
I think this is a problem though. If there's one thing that Linux distros should standardize it's the choice of package manager. I guess it still wouldn't always work though, as different distros have different versions of libraries packaged etc. Rather, what should happen is that developers should stop releasing only pre-packaged... packages of their linux applications. Even if it's proprietary software, just release the binaries and a list of dependencies (or simply include statically linked deps etc with the app) and the package maintainers will take care of creating packages for their respective distros.
Ah yes. That was actually the first distro I tried. They had to change name to Linspire after a while though because I think MS threatened to sue them or something.Anyone remember Lindows: Shit this thread reminded me of that for some reason.
These are exciting times but i do wonder about Linux. Like other`s said, Linux distros are not for average users. Simple tasks can be way more complicated on than on Windows.
Usually they're not more complicated or more difficult. They're just different. People have spent years learning how Windows works though and are not willing to learn something new and that's understandable.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
So OSX sucks too then? Ok.Lol no. Windows works fine on self built PC's. If Linux doesn't, then Linux sucks.
angular graphics
Banned
What's weird, new, and unknown, is Valve's wrapper. They've said that they wrote their own DirectX -> OpenGL layer for Source games, and did not go the "native" route. This might have only been true in the Source Mac days, or may still be true today. They haven't released this or talked about it in any depth. If they are still using a wrapper, and this wrapper is generalizeable, then we're in for a crazy ride, as L4D2 and TF2 run faster on Linux than Windows. A wrapper providing equal or better performance and with active developer support from Valve would be enough to solve this problem.
Actually they have talked a bit more than that.
First of all yes Source on Mac used a wrapper as well, one that wasn't as good as the current one though.
When Source was ported to Linux they redesigned the whole wrapper improving it tremendously. They call it "togl" (to OpenGL).
According to Valve the wrapper cannot be released publicly due to its dependency on other internal files, but they are anyway working on a new better one that will translate DX10/11 calls and they mentioned it is "still several months out from it being releasable" suggesting they do plan to release it. That was 5 months ago... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83192925&postcount=49
Actually they have talked a bit more than that.
First of all yes Source on Mac used a wrapper as well, one that wasn't as good as the current one though.
When Source was ported to Linux they redesigned the whole wrapper improving it tremendously. They call it "togl" (to OpenGL).
According to Valve the wrapper cannot be released publicly due to its dependency on other internal files, but they are anyway working on a new better one that will translate DX10/11 calls and they mentioned it is "still several months out from it being releasable" suggesting they do plan to release it. That was 5 months ago... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83192925&postcount=49
I did not know about this. This is VERY interesting.
I think Microsoft is in big trouble if they don't change there focus soon. Windows 8 huge disappointment, Xbox One not out the gate yet but seems to be going in the wrong direction, and now this. Microsoft had great things going for them and then tried to be like Apple and it is killing them.
dragonelite
Member
I think Microsoft is in big trouble if they don't change there focus soon. Windows 8 huge disappointment, Xbox One not out the gate yet but seems to be going in the wrong direction, and now this. Microsoft had great things going for them and then tried to be like Apple and it is killing them.
Shadow master bill was not pleased so a ballmer is out.
Actually they have talked a bit more than that.
First of all yes Source on Mac used a wrapper as well, one that wasn't as good as the current one though.
When Source was ported to Linux they redesigned the whole wrapper improving it tremendously. They call it "togl" (to OpenGL).
According to Valve the wrapper cannot be released publicly due to its dependency on other internal files, but they are anyway working on a new better one that will translate DX10/11 calls and they mentioned it is "still several months out from it being releasable" suggesting they do plan to release it. That was 5 months ago... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83192925&postcount=49
Thanks, that's great news.
CrashPrime
Member
Actually they have talked a bit more than that.
First of all yes Source on Mac used a wrapper as well, one that wasn't as good as the current one though.
When Source was ported to Linux they redesigned the whole wrapper improving it tremendously. They call it "togl" (to OpenGL).
According to Valve the wrapper cannot be released publicly due to its dependency on other internal files, but they are anyway working on a new better one that will translate DX10/11 calls and they mentioned it is "still several months out from it being releasable" suggesting they do plan to release it. That was 5 months ago... http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83192925&postcount=49
Had no idea this was a thing. Hell. Yes.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Funniest thing to me in this thread is we have MS takin so much shit for Xbone across the board, but it seems the average PC gamer is so entrenched in Windows they forget it's THE SAME Microsoft! They are don't care about PC gaming, at least Valve seem to!
Linux as a viable gaming OS (regardless of how it gets there) is great for competition and a healthy gaming market, and just look at the (assumed) renaissance of Sony as a result of that kind of competition...
Imagine if there were 2 separate PC Superior Race breeds? PC Wars? Gaf might implode...
Linux as a viable gaming OS (regardless of how it gets there) is great for competition and a healthy gaming market, and just look at the (assumed) renaissance of Sony as a result of that kind of competition...
Imagine if there were 2 separate PC Superior Race breeds? PC Wars? Gaf might implode...