They certainly do, but at this point we don't really need all that added power much anyways and it's hard for Apple to go hog-wild with iOS when they still aim to make the latest versions run well on 2-3yr old hardware (which is great, don't get me wrong). The best improvements are when they can do a node shrink, imo. The power savings are always evident.Mr.Shrugglesツ;243004422 said:
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iPhone 8 should cost $1,500?
- Thread starter Blackhead
- Start date
First off what does the A10x have to do with anything? Yes its smaller than the A10 but it would never practically power a phone, its of no significance. Unless Im allowed to quote every random architecture that will "fit" in a cellphone?
Secondly, who cares if they use the same node? Chipmakers make gains all the time on the same node they use previously. If you somehow think that performance/power is wholly dependent on die shrinks then I will some bad news for you in a few years. Luckily this isn't the case at all.
Lastly you are majorly mistaken if you think anybody in this yearly hardware cycle starts development on the next project at or around the launch of the predecessor. There is likely more than a years worth of engineering in every chip. I have also not said anything negative about Apple's design prowess. The fact that suggesting they might not be as good as you think comes off as offense should probably signal that you are a bit too dedicated...
Mr.Shrugglesツ;243004422 said:
Barely? I take it you only look at consumer benchmarks? Even then the 835 bests the A10 by like 40% in synthetics like 3DMark.
Apple is a great chip developer, maybe the best in the mobile arena but that is very largely still up for debate and we basically never get to test their chips in ideal conditions against their competitors.
QuantumZebra
Member
This isn't America, at least not that I know of.
I grew up in a well-to-do town in Georgia (Alpharetta), and nobody gave a shit what phone you were using. Then I went to a big-ass public university (UGA) - still no one gave a shit.
Ascension must live in the snobbiest place in the U.S. or just specifically hunt down awful people to be around in order to think like that.
On the other-hand, people at my job refuse to give up their iMacs and MacBooks even after countless losses of work due to Office 365 not autosaving on their Mac, or their files getting jacked up and corrupted because HFS+ is garbage and can barely interact with NTFS/REFS without taking a nosedive. I have to bootcamp Macs for people to use Windows and even then they stay using OSX side. It's a cult-like mentality. I guess it's not surprising that some uber-snob areas have people that think if you're not part of the cult you're not good enough.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
I dont get whats wrong with looking at how these things perform under real world conditions.
If Im buying a car, I dont care how good the gas mileage would be on the moon, where traffic and wind resistance and stoplights arent things. I want to know how itll do when Im actually driving it.
I'll wait till I see the thing before I make that judgement call. I doubt the phone will be $1,500, but who knows I suppose.
I'm not opposed to the idea that a phone could be $1,500, but if it's going to be it needs to do a lot, and I mean a lot, to justify its price. If you presented me a bezelless, face scanning iPhone like the rumors suggest? That is a far call from being worth $1,500 to me.
I'm not opposed to the idea that a phone could be $1,500, but if it's going to be it needs to do a lot, and I mean a lot, to justify its price. If you presented me a bezelless, face scanning iPhone like the rumors suggest? That is a far call from being worth $1,500 to me.
Didn't we talk about this? It's because of how 3DMark does it physics test. If you look at any other synthetic test that's not the case.
We're on a largely tech focused forum. Its a bit pretentious to think everybody just takes the carrier version of the phone and run with.
We did, I responded and you never came back. You can isolate the physics score and the graphics score from the overall score, which I pointed out. There's alot of variance in the scores, semmingly dependent on graphical features used in the demo scene but we never get insight into that.
Mr.Shrugglesã
Banned
I don't about you, but I used my devices for consumer endeavours and not for 3dmark.
Might be just me though.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Mr.Shrugglesツ;243008850 said:
How pretentious.
Oh, I went away and didn't realize. Right, there's two subscores, and from what I can see it's about a 30% difference in Slingshot Extreme.
https://www.futuremark.com/hardware/mobile/Samsung+Galaxy+S8_+(MSM8998%2/review
https://www.futuremark.com/hardware/mobile/Apple+iPhone+7+Plus/review
That is definitely impressive for the Adreno 540 but outside of that synthetic test, I really can't find as drastic of a difference between the two.
The A10x has everything to do with the discourse we are having because it's a chip designed by Apple that fits the bill and that goes against your absurd idea that somehow Apple has 6 months of presumed advantage over the competition.
The A10x will never be on the phone merely because of companies strategies not because of some kind of technical challenge hence why i said what i said, if by some random turnaround they decided to call it a day and just put the A10x in the next iPhone they would still be well above the competition with a chip that was released in the same timeframe, same node, same engineering time, same whatever than the competition.
That leaves a single deduction possible... Apple engineers are better than everybody else in the field of designing mobile chips.
It was not me who had doubts on their prowess but you who said that it wasn't the fact that they are good but the fact that they somehow had a half a year advantage compared to others, i said 1 year to put a number but the point is that Apple's engineering times/cycles are the same as the others... it's not like the competition puts up a new processor every 12 months while Apple does so every 18 months... that would be an "advantage" the likes you claim.
I won't even mention the thinly veiled accuses of fanboyism.
I mean, serious question:
Does anyone here *honestly* expect to change someone's mind / heart? Do you think you're going to write 7 paragraphs that will make someone say "you know, you're right, and I'm just gonna do what you say."
Most of the discussion in this thread is just powerflexing from people who want to put on a display of their consumer hardware knowledge and why "they" know what's best, one way or the other.
Let people do what they want to do for god sakes. Goodness.
Does anyone here *honestly* expect to change someone's mind / heart? Do you think you're going to write 7 paragraphs that will make someone say "you know, you're right, and I'm just gonna do what you say."
Most of the discussion in this thread is just powerflexing from people who want to put on a display of their consumer hardware knowledge and why "they" know what's best, one way or the other.
Let people do what they want to do for god sakes. Goodness.
It really seems to be scene dependent. Even in the gfxbench numbers you quoted there are wild fluctuations in both directions depending on the demo. We need alot more insight then these benchmarks blanketly provide, thats without a doubt.
I'm not touching most of this post but the advantage comes from being later than the competition. It doesn't matter how long their cycle is, the chip is finished alot later than the competitors chip. Everything from final transistor count to final clocks can and often will be tweaked to outperform the competitor. This literally happens every 2-3 months in the DGPU field. I don't know how or why you think its any different here but alas. I doubt we have much more to debate.
Erebus
Member
I see your point but then why are we posting on a forum in the first place? Because what you described is the case for pretty much any similar topic on GAF.
Why? Whatever happened to 'improve some of the specs and keep the price the same'?
And when even the iPad 'pro' starts at 64gb, I cant see the Iphone starting at 128
Let's even say that what you said was true (it partially is in fact) then explain something like RX Vega which with more than a year of advantage over a GTX1080 it merely manages to be in the same ballpark or surpass it or the fact that the A10x is better than every competitor despite being released at the same time.
It's what the not technologically adept call "wizardry" which in reality translate to better engineers.
Crazyorloco
Member
If I didn't have to worry about rent. Maybe I'd get it.
paperboywriter
Member
They should make it even more expensive for all those idiots lining up to get it on day one. Current price is ridiculous anyway, so why not triple it. Doesn't matter to their customers anyway.
Wait, so lemme guess, you're the technically adept one here?
As far as this, every development cycle is different. AMD has been in the shitter for years, this isn't news to anybody. They've been significantly behind NV/Intel and are only now starting to pull even. None of the main mobile designers are anywhere close to having that kind of disparity. Why not compare ATI/NV around the 2000s when they were much closer and leapfrogged basically every release? I think know why but....
//DEVIL//
Member
lol @ spending this much on a fucking phone . I don't get what comes from it. does a person think he is "cool" when he buy one of these ? or fake rich ? "hey look I have a 1500$ phone "
its a fucking phone :/ and the specs in it isn't worth a 1500$. a 2k Edge Amoled sceens are dirt cheap with a fucking Samsung galaxy s6 having it since 3 years.
what is it actually ? the increase in specs a lil over last year model?
sometimes people like to waste their money in the stupidest way possible. But hey, its their money.
Not even Samsung with an 800$ phone is worth that much. bezel less phone? Mi Mix has it since last year with a 256Gig storage and snapdragon 821 and actually a real plated gold ring for a 550$.
these companies feed on the weak minded people towards having the latest new thing . and youtube media helps it when a site says ( oh ma god the best thing eva ) and people fall for it.
its a fucking phone :/ and the specs in it isn't worth a 1500$. a 2k Edge Amoled sceens are dirt cheap with a fucking Samsung galaxy s6 having it since 3 years.
what is it actually ? the increase in specs a lil over last year model?
sometimes people like to waste their money in the stupidest way possible. But hey, its their money.
Not even Samsung with an 800$ phone is worth that much. bezel less phone? Mi Mix has it since last year with a 256Gig storage and snapdragon 821 and actually a real plated gold ring for a 550$.
these companies feed on the weak minded people towards having the latest new thing . and youtube media helps it when a site says ( oh ma god the best thing eva ) and people fall for it.
Oh no i'm no expert by any means... i can navigate myself through IPC, cache, number of ROPs and TMUs, frequency, latency, bandwidth, flop/s and understand what CPU/GPU is better at particular tasks given those numbers but anything deeper than that and you lose me but i think i can safely claim that i know more than the random buyer.
And you know why Ryzen now is giving hard time to Intel even if the R&D money was as low as usual for AMD? Because ahead of the Zen core project was Jim Keller which is known to be one of the best processor engineers in the world and guess who was the mastermind of the first custom core Apple has done (the A6) that leapfrogged the competition of the time? Always Jim Keller. He was also the person responsible for AMD K8 which gave the edge to AMD and actually forced Intel to use their 64 bit instruction set implemented the first time in this family of processors.
I really don't know where are you going with comparing ATI/Nvidia of the 2000s but sure let's do that, it'll pretty much show that unlike what is happening nowadays their engineering teams were somehow on par with each other at the times.
The articles are assuming that the "improve some of the specs and keep the price the same" phone is going to be the 7S. This is an entirely new SKU, so yeah the only place it could be price-wise is more expensive.
But people disagree with me on the internet!
My 2p: I can't justify that expensive a phone, even if I hold onto it for 4 years or longer. I'm not really doing "work" on my phone so it can't be justified the same way an iPad or MacBook could.
The idea of Apple making a "performance car" iPhone has some interesting value (and purely from a tech enthusiast standpoint I'd love to see what a $1500 phone looked like), but the problems Gruber points out with this strategy are also obvious. Admittedly it'd be a better value than the rose gold Apple Watch Editions, but those basically failed because they couldn't effectively pivot their technology into high-end luxury, and I'm not sure if the iPhone could either.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I wouldn't pay more than 250 $ for a phone. I don't understand how paying 750 $ more than my Honor 6 would be worth it. I can do pretty much anything i want with my phone.
Im going there because it represents how close the mobile field is instead of your lopsided Vega/Pascal comparisons. When two teams are on comparitive tracks and aren't launch aligned with each other there will be leap frogs.
Nvidia has lapped ATI/Amd for years which is why we have the disparity we see now. AMD couldnt design a competitive chip for years. This has never been the case on the mobile front.
The Hamburglar
Banned
Considering they cost 200 dollars to make, anyone paying that price is nothing but a moron.
There's a reason Apple are number one, dat insane mark up and the sheep that buy their new phones ever year.
There's a reason Apple are number one, dat insane mark up and the sheep that buy their new phones ever year.
This isn't a normal thing lol.
Are you willing to continue this in PMs? We are going super off topic here lol
I've used Vega/Pascal to show how the engineering team is important and how Apple's is systematically better than the competition regardless of the period of the year it was released.
To put it simply, answer yourself these question and you'll see that your original point that sparked this discussion is invalid:
Was the A10x released in the same period of Qualcomm's and Samsung's processors?
Is the A10x better than these other processors?
There's a lot more to the price of developing a phone than how much the phone physically costs to make.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
This is true. SMS is outdated. It doesnt have group chatting and only supports 170 characters per message so it becomes annoying to chat with people who dont have iMessage. And other phones handle group chatting differently. Some people assume it just means itll send the same message to everyone separately but in reality you end up in a weird conversation with a dozen numbers you dont recognize with broken conversations whenever your Android using friend tries to wish all her friends a Merry Christmas.
Fuck SMS. In a perfect world Apple and Google would have worked together to build an unlimited messaging system for the smartphone age with all the features iMessage has and have it on all new phones going forward. But nope. Now we get to keep a half a dozen different messaging apps on our phones to handle all our friends.
For me its not even about read receipts. Its about delivery receipts. I like knowing my message was accepted by the other persons phone so I dont worry that it got lost in a glitch like Ive had so many text messages do in my day.
Yes. Just turn it off and all your friends will be green. And your iPhone using friends will secretly despise you. So dont do it.
Poimandres
Member
My general approach to all product purchases is to find the ideal price to quality ratio. I sure as hell don't buy expensive brand name clothes when cheaper alternatives with similar quality exist. Brands and image don't really mean much to me. Hell, half the time with clothing price has zero bearing on the quality. My experience with phones and other technology purchases falls totally in line with this, so I guess it's a fundamentally different attitude to many other people (who will line up for new product launches etc)
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Or maybe other people also approach their phone purchases with the same attitude, but what they consider a high price or high quality varies from your own opinion.
I mean. I think it's possible to exchange thoughts, opinions, and ideas...without the need to convert someone else to your point of view or illustrate why they're wrong (particularly without the vitriol).
I dunno. Maybe it's just me. I just see some of these threads and think "why is THIS what's happening in here instead of some actual discussion?"
I mean...why not talk about the possible components, the probable price gauging, or the kinks that will probably be present on the first iteration of some of these new hardware perks?
Isn't there more to talk about than trying to persuade people to "join your side"?
Nah lol we're at an impasse because you keep trying to bring up the A10x which has completely different platform targets.
FYI Qualcomm just last month announced the Snapdragon Mobile PC platform, which theoretically should be competitors to Apple's A_x platform that you seem to love so much. This may be worth revisiting then when those machines start to launch but i'm not comparing smartphone chips to premium tablet chips.
I mean it has the same tdp target of the phone counterpart, it runs on the same category of os... i don't see why you are so adamant in saying they are different ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Just curious about all the people who say things like this, do you also post on message boards about how stupid people are for paying more than 5-10K for a car? Do you post about how your used Corolla can get you pretty much anywhere you want to go? Many people including myself value their phones more than a car. I barely use my car but I use my phone all the time and it's vastly cheaper to get a high end phone then even a midrange car.
Mr.Shrugglesã
Banned
The good ol' Qualcomm slogan, just wait til you see the next release!
Because they are hugely different. The TDP is a byproduct of the move from 16nm to 10nm comapared to the A10. The same chip would've been huge and significantly more expensive if it was using 16nm. And likely alot hotter. Its as disengenous as you can get.I mean it has the same tdp target of the phone counterpart, it runs on the same category of os... i don't see why you are so adamant in saying they are different ¯_(ツ
Mr.Shrugglesツ;243023160 said:
Jimmcarrey.gif
PeterLegend
Member
I plan on upgrading my iPhone 5 (2012) to the iPhone 8 but if it's over $1,000 I might have to wait lol...
Poimandres
Member
Sure absolutely. Same is true for other things as well.
With phones though... the much higher price of some phones is a hard sell for me because there are benchmarks and tech breakdowns that go into detail about every component. You might get a slightly better battery, or a slightly faster processor, but there's a huge level of overlap with the parts themselves being somewhat standardised (or at least not radically different). This is obviously not the case with every component of a phone, and software is a whole other bag, so I do agree with your basic point.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Yep, i think the same. I'm not saying anybody is stupid though. I just don't get it. As i don't get how somebody can spend 3k instead of 1k to spend a 10h flight in better condition.
Everything mid-range is good enough for me.
QuantumZebra
Member
Seeing Applestans go through the stages of grief/mental gymnastics necessary to justify Apple's brazenly anti-consumer ideas and initiatives is one of my new favorite things.
This might even top the headphone jack or the USB-C only MacBook
This might even top the headphone jack or the USB-C only MacBook
Can you explain how how offering an additional tier at the high end is anti-consumer?
Mr.Shrugglesã
Banned
I dont know how being at the forefront of technological advances is anti consumer.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Why do people keep wanting to feed the troll?
Just because he wants to roll around in shit doesnt mean you need to jump in with him.
Applestans? Fanbois? Who talks like that? Were one iSheep reference away from a 2006 Zune message board.
Just because he wants to roll around in shit doesnt mean you need to jump in with him.
Applestans? Fanbois? Who talks like that? Were one iSheep reference away from a 2006 Zune message board.
Mr.Shrugglesツ;243026784 said:
yeah, it's a weird thing to say.
I think this is accurate, but they're doing it in a smart way.
On the one hand, they've introduced the best price/performance product in their history recently with the $329 iPad. And the Pro's are on the high end of reasonably priced for what they offer above that model.
On the other, I expect them to introduce an iPhone Pro this year, coming in at $100-$300 over the 7 Plus prices, and if that ends up a hit, I half expect them to really go for it two years down the line with an iPhone Edition (a version of the Pro that gets made in a limited number, out of fancy materials, but is otherwise the same as the pro, and costs $500 more.)
Considering how often they have been unable to meet demand on recent products, like the jet black iPhone 7 and Air Pods, it's clear they are undercharging for certain products. Absurd as it might seem considering they are the most profitable company on earth, they've actually been clearly going for the largest possible installed base rather than pure quarter-to-quarter profit.
Introducing a higher tier where they get to play with tech they can't realistically make 70 million of in a quarter but no longer have to because the demand is cut by the price lets them ease up some of the pressure on making those 70 million of the standard models while raking in a higher profit off the 10 or so million they make at the top of line. Win-win for Apple.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Applestans. Ah.... flashbacks to my embarrassing days of Sonybots/Xbots on gaf.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
Haven't lots of people already paid over 1000 for an iPhone already? My 6s plus 256gb was already that.
Uno Venova
Banned
Yep, iMessage has completely gotten rid of any worry I've had that that you're message wasn't sent. Plus it's seamless to text from other devices if you have them.
Honestly it's weird that people even think there's something wrong with people wanting to solely use an objectively superior messaging service.