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[ALLseeingEYE]

I would imagine that the power target for both of these consoles is the ability to play games at 4K with the same settings otherwise as the base consoles. It would be nice to have a "4K with same settings" vs "1080p with enhanced settings" toggle, but I doubt most devs would want to bother, if Sony/MS allowed it in the first place.

That said, yeah, most games will probably be 1080p or 1440p and put the bulk of the extra horsepower into better textures/effects/AA/etc, barring a mandate from Sony and/or MS that they have to run at 4K.



That's not an issue of processing power, though, so much as an issue of the games' programming. It's a somewhat common thing for console-exclusive games to have their game logic be bound to the rendering framerate to the point where the game will break if your framerate is above/below that, so most ports of these games to better hardware just keep the old framerate lock rather than re-program shit to make it work at a higher/variable framerate.

in Sony's case, perhaps it will be more annoying for developers to optimize for multiple configurations, but don't forget that all MS play anywhere titles are already doing this legwork for PC.

I would love to see MS titles offer multiple graphic options on Scorprio, and in theory, it is very visbale for them to do so. 1440p at 60fps on the equivalent of PC Ultra settings would look amazing on the right monitor, and I often prefer it over 4k at 30fps on my 980ti.

 

[LCGeek]

Seriously, the vast majority of people do not give a shit about framerate at all.

This is such a warped sentiment at this point in gaming culture. People have given a shit about FPS if we didn't we would still be using 3d accelerators. The same could be said for various forms of framepacing technology which since the TnT2, Various GPU generations, and Better apis actually ensure games don't become single digit hell holes because of crappy engine programming.

 

[blastprocessor]

Keep that PC crap out of console games.

Another vote, hence why l enjoy console > over my PC.

 

[ALLseeingEYE]

Keep that PC crap out of console games.

In other words, don't give me a PC-style advanced video settings screen in my console games?

Even if I get where you are coming from, I will never agree with this mentality, since if you don't like it, just ignore it. But even for people like you (and I assume a lot of people feel the same), there is a very simple solution to this. Simply have devs make 3 seperate video configurations, all based on the resolution of the user's system resolution settings. They could even let players toggle this singular option in the settings screen for little to no hassle.

It would be a huge waste to not take advantage of the extra tech in Scorpio/neo when playing at lower resolutions.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

So next gen price with last gen experience (aside from resolution)?

 

[ALLseeingEYE]

So next gen price with last gen experience (aside from resolution)?

Are you insisting that current games played on PC at 4K and high/ultra settings look last-gen?

 

[OmegaDL50]

I'm about to buy a 9 TFLOP GPU for my 1080p monitor. I definitely agree with their sentiment.

Yeah I'm still going to be playing on my 1080p HDTV for quite some time even after I put a GTX 1070 in my system.

I am currently no sort of rush for 4K.

Another vote, hence why l enjoy console > over my PC.

Options are bad. I get it.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Not sure about new games... well, it probably applies for new games, too. but...

At least in terms of 'Neo patches' for games like GTA V or Witcher 3... I couldn't give two shits about 4K first, I just want those games in 60 FPS.

Sure, maybe try do it for MGS V since it already runs like a dream but honnestly the biggest reason I'm buying a Neo isn't even for the new games. It's kinda the same reason I bought GTA V for PS4. I just want my favorite games like GTAV or W3 to run a more perfect 1080p/60FPS.

 

[Vol5]

Where have Sony said they are targeting 4K? They have a 4K player and playback and that's all we know.

 

[ALLseeingEYE]

Where have Sony said they are targeting 4K? They have a 4K player and playback and that's all we know.

Yup,
I am assuming Sony will have a great 1080/1440p box on their hands, that will nicely target their coveted $400 USD price point.

It should be an excellent box for the money, but I'm very curious if they are willing to hold back and put something more powerful in after MS' announcements.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Is PC ownership taking a large chunk out of these consoles marketshare? Are there still people out there who claim that PC gaming is dead? It feels like the whole industry is trying to pivot in order to contend with competition from PC gamers. Maybe I'm interpreting things incorrectly, but I'd be curious to have the discussion.

 

[ChosenPredator]

4k is nice but i rather have some innovation into AI stuff making things more interesting and dynamic but i know there is a massive obsession with super intense graphics but everything seems to be getting reduced to spectacular visuals rather then innovation in other areas..kind of why i appreciate indie games since it literally them who take all the risk.

 

[MilkBeard]

I'm also not convinced if pushing 4K is the right thing this early into the tech. I'd much rather they target a lower resolution (1080p or 1440p) with the highest possible performance (highest graphical settings and solid 60fps).

Of course, that alone probably will not sell the Scorpio like Microsoft wants, so they need some new tech to push it. And of course, I'll eat crow if the Scorpio comes out and games look amazing at 4k and it really feels like a good leap.

My issue is that I probably won't have a 4k tv for a long time, so I like the idea of getting improved performance at 1080p. In that sense, I hope the devs offer solutions people without 4k tvs. The Neo will be a good fit for me, but I don't know if I'm even going to be able to afford to upgrade any time soon. We will see.

 

[Obliterator]

Yeah I would much rather Devs focus on 1080p with better effects and framerates. That is a lot more important to me than 4k at the moment as I have a kick ass 1080p tv that I won't be upgrading for at least another 2-3 years.

 

[CosmicQueso]

I feel the question though is if consumers will find native 4K preferable to having majorly improved graphics given the vast majority of things they're watching on their 4K TV are going to be 720p, 1080i, or 1080p anyway.

For right or wrong, one of the takeaways from the current gen is that resolution numbers matter for the console purchase. PS4 being 1080p, Xone games 900p was something that struck a chord with consumers and made for a very easy bullet point. It seemed to be the primary sticking point for at least the first couple years of the gen.

As people adopt 4K sets, people will likely want a box that can output games at 4K.

Most general customers can't tell the difference between 1080p and 900p output. Didn't stop the majority from wanting a 1080p output for a 1080p set.

I'd rather have 60 frames too, but for the mass market? That resolution number will be very important. Not because it actually is better, but because it sounds as though it should be better.

Yeah I would much rather Devs focus on 1080p with better effects and framerates. That is a lot more important to me than 4k at the moment as I have a kick ass 1080p tv that I won't be upgrading for at least another 2-3 years.

But, this timing of the Scorprio then aligns perfectly with your upgrade timing?

The race for more pixels is nothing but a way to sell new TVs every five years.

New TVs and remastered previous gen games and new UHD BluRays. Of course that's what it is. That's what every generational leap is all about.

4K blurays, your say ? But how many movies where actually shot at ultra HD resolution?

Can't everything that was shot on actual film be pushed to UHD?

 

[moozoom]

The race for more pixels is nothing but a way to sell new TVs every five years.

Otherwise why not concentrate your efforts and new processing power to make 60fps, nicely aliased, flicker-less games ?

4K blurays, your say ? But how many movies where actually shot at ultra HD resolution? I hope you like shitty recent blockbusters, and even then the post production and SFX are made at 2K at most (source).

 

[RoboPlato]

I think many are also underestimating HDR benefits on 4K displays. HDR output will be an appreciable benefit for those with the 4K sets and added effects and framerate will be appreciable to everyone. Combine that with the smooth scale from 1080 to 4K and 1080 really seems to make more sense.

 

[Majine]

4K is a selling point.

1080p is not, and so is anything in between.

 

[Obliterator]

But, this timing of the Scorprio then aligns perfectly with your upgrade timing?

Not if I don't upgrade for 3 years which is the more likely outcome. At that point we will already be on the next piece of hardware after Neo. Not to mention to be frank 4k isn't happening on either Neo or Scorpio much at native resolutions the machines aren't really that capable of it.

I expect 4k to really not be a huge focus for either. Certainly not Neo, it straight up doesn't have the horsepower to do it

 

[ALLseeingEYE]

The race for more pixels is nothing but a way to sell new TVs every five years.

Otherwise why not concentrate your efforts and new processing power to make 60fps, nicely aliased, flicker-less games ?

4K blurays, your say ? But how many movies where actually shot at ultra HD resolution? I hope you like shitty recent blockbusters, and even then the post production and SFX are made at 2K at most (source).

Any film shot prior to the digital age should be UHD, since they use high quality film. Otherwise, every film nowadays is UDH, and I imagine any film shot in the last 5 years is as well (I don't know the exact timeframe here, but if anything, it's higher than 5 years).

In other words, there is a treasure trove of great films that should support 4k.

Otherwise, yeah, I really do hope Scorpio and PS4 Neo offer higher video settings and framerates at lower resolution. It's a totally fair tradeoff, and very possible to cater to all gamers this way.

 

[vg260]

Keep that PC crap out of console games.

Just ignore the settings and go with the default if you don't like choice.

 

[RoboPlato]

4K is a selling point.

1080p is not, and so is anything in between.

I expect 4K upscaling will get some sort of marketing push. Sony's 4K scaler has a lot of positive buzz from A/V people. They could make a big deal out of that.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Not if I don't upgrade for 3 years which is the more likely outcome. At that point we will already be on the next piece of hardware after Neo. Not to mention to be frank 4k isn't happening on either Neo or Scorpio much at native resolutions the machines aren't really that capable of it.

I expect 4k to really not be a huge focus for either. Certainly not Neo, it straight up doesn't have the horsepower to do it

So if Holiday 2017 isn't the right time, what is? Holiday 2018? It's going to happen, TV sales are leaning more and more to 4K capable, content is coming, it's not like 4K is going away?

Neo very likely won't do 4K native, neither will the S. But Neo and Scorpio aren't comparable. Neo and Xbox One S are.

 

[Obliterator]

So if Holiday 2017 isn't the right time, what is? Holiday 2018?

Neo very likely won't do 4K native, neither will the S. But Neo and Scorpio aren't comparable. Neo and Xbox One S are.

They can do it whenever they want I don't really care. I'm just saying what I am looking for and its not 4k. I would rather have better framerate and assets then 4k.

But yeah Scorpio could maybe do current level graphics at 4k 30fps. I could see them somewhat pushing that.

Neo doesn't have the horsepower to run anything newly released at 4k 30. Sony at the very least are going to have to focus on framerate and effects

 

[CosmicQueso]

They can do it whenever they want I don't really care. I'm just saying what I am looking for and its not 4k. I would rather have better framerate and assets then 4k.

Even when you upgrade to a 4K TV? You won't want native 4K gaming output at that point? You'll be satisfied with upscaled 1080p?

I just can't see a market where we get to a tipping point on 4K set adoption, where one console is 4K and the other is 1080p, and the 1080p box having a fighting chance for success.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I'd rather they go 1080/60 full screen AA and a fuck tonne of effects.

 

[Obliterator]

Even when you upgrade to a 4K TV? You won't want native 4K gaming output at that point? You'll be satisfied with upscaled 1080p?

Nah I'll take 4k then but it has no bearing on my life right now.

So I don't frankly care if these machines focus on 4k or not. That's all I'm saying. Them supporting 4k is a literal non factor for me as by the time I get a 4k TV we will be on the next round of iterative hardware

 

[RoboPlato]

Even when you upgrade to a 4K TV? You won't want native 4K gaming output at that point? You'll be satisfied with upscaled 1080p?

The clean scale of 1080p content on 4K displays makes it far less of an issue than something under 1080p on other displays.

There's also the fact that even Scorpio's specs won't guarantee 4K at modern AAA standards.

 

[ALLseeingEYE]

The clean scale of 1080p content on 4K displays makes it far less of an issue than something under 1080p on other displays.

There's also the fact that even Scorpio's specs won't guarantee 4K at modern AAA standards.

Upscaling 1080p to 4k on my ASUS 28" 4k is not a pretty sight, this no doubt hugely depends on your monitor/TV, and what upscaling is being done. 1440p to 4k however, can look quite nice on it.

 

[jet1911]

But Neo and Scorpio aren't comparable. Neo and Xbox One S are.

Huh? The S is a smaller Xbox One. How is that comparable to the Neo?

 

[hesido]

Why would you hope against 4K?


I think people here really underestimate the power of 4K to transcend and image to something completely different.

At 4K, games are devoid of all the shimmering, aliasing, glitchy qualities that make games look, well, gamey.


For years people have clammored for that "Toy Story" image. And the biggest hinderence to that goal has not been lighting, or textures, or effects, which often modern games outdo. (If not on a technical level on a visual output level) It has been the image quality.


Shaders look better in 4K, vegitation looks a generation ahead in 4K, LoD is sometimes technically enhanced(and always made better use of) in 4K, AA becomes a non issue in all but the rarest of instances, textures that before had their details blurred and obscured by low resolutions, are now vivid and communicate detail from afar.


It is really a transformative effect on games. Going back and playing older games like Bioshock, Mirrors Edge, Skyrim, etc all look like completely different games at 4K. The same could not be said when playing those same games at 60hz.

4K is a very lazy approach to fix the issues you mention. Technically you can solve all those problems at 1080p, and with margin to spare if you employ that 6TF to good use. You can multisample where needed, for example. But you know you won't be wasting time trying to pump out more pixels. Every pixel will receive more love and attention.

 

[Nirolak]

For right or wrong, one of the takeaways from the current gen is that resolution numbers matter for the console purchase. PS4 being 1080p, Xone games 900p was something that struck a chord with consumers and made for a very easy bullet point. It seemed to be the primary sticking point for at least the first couple years of the gen.

As people adopt 4K sets, people will likely want a box that can output games at 4K.

Most general customers can't tell the difference between 1080p and 900p output. Didn't stop the majority from wanting a 1080p output for a 1080p set.

I'd rather have 60 frames too, but for the mass market? That resolution number will be very important. Not because it actually is better, but because it sounds as though it should be better.

I agree with you to an extent, but I guess my feeling is that the real takeaway for gamers was that the PS4 was more powerful than the Xbox One.

If XB1 games ran in 1080p resolution, but the PS4's graphics were notable better, I think we would have seen the same results we did anyway. The resolution difference was just the way it ultimately manifested itself.

I do think Microsoft is yelling about 4K from the rooftops because they know the PS4K really isn't going to be able to hit that, but when consumers look to buy a game, I feel they would see the same advantage to buying a Scorpio with a 1080p game that looks much better than the Neo's 1080p version as they would seeing a 4K Scorpio game versus a 2K Neo game.

Through that lens, I think many publishers will feel fine putting out 1080p games on both systems and just adjusting the graphics. I actually don't even expect many of them to favor 1080p/60fps versus 4K/30fps, but rather going for 1080p/30fps and trying to make the best looking promotional screenshots and videos in the world.

I admit that I could easily be wrong here and maybe it really is resolution that drives consumer demand. However, given how much we see games like Battlefront riding on graphics despite being sub-1080p, it's just hard for me to imagine that everyone is going to start taking the resolution equivalent of making every video game 60 FPS when they can spend even more on rendering and visual effects instead.

To give an illustration, imagine this was the Xbox One version of the Witcher 3 (which it is):

And this was the Xbox Scorpio version:

I think this has even more of an impact selling the new console than just upping the resolution to 4K.

 

[HeelPower]

I was just wanna play Bloodborne at 1080p 60 with great IQ.

Is it too much to ask ?

 

[BigTnaples]

If the game has to be compromised to hell to achieve it, then yes I am against it

Compromised? Even the disappointing Halo 5 would look incredible at 4K.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Are you insisting that current games played on PC at 4K and high/ultra settings look last-gen?

You see where I said aside from resolution right?

 

[BigTnaples]

4K is a very lazy approach to fix the issues you mention. Technically you can solve all those problems at 1080p, and with margin to spare if you employ that 6TF to good use. You can multisample where needed, for example. But you know you won't be wasting time trying to pump out more pixels. Every pixel will receive more love and attention.

1080p with all bells and whistles increased to max and the best MSAA still doesn't hold a candle to native 4K. It looks like a blurry mess by comparison.


I have over 5 different HD screens in my home of varying resolution and size and display tech. I game on everything from games outputting 720p on my Xbox one, to tricky resolution tricks like Shadowfall, to native 4K on PC and everything in between.


Yes you can make 1080p and 1440p look great. But they all pale in comparison to a nice 4K HDR image. There simply is no comparison. Especially in games with a lot of detail and/or vegetation like The Wild Hunt, Fallout 4, Skyrim, Bioshock Infinite, etc.

 

[CosmicQueso]

I agree with you to an extent, but I guess my feeling is that the real takeaway for gamers was that the PS4 was more powerful than the Xbox One.

If XB1 games ran in 1080p resolution, but the PS4's graphics were notable better, I think we would have seen the same results we did anyway. The resolution difference was just the way it ultimately manifested itself.

That's what I was trying to get at. Joe Consumer equated the power difference as being defined by the output resolution.

Sure, it may be better to go 1080p with better visuals, but you also have the battle of the bullet points to contend with for general consumer sentiment.

Or, it might not matter at all. Looks like they're betting native 4K output for gaming will be an important thing. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Huh? The S is a smaller Xbox One. How is that comparable to the Neo?

Supports 4K video output, HDR, and has a UHD BluRay drive. That's what makes it similar to Neo. It's not just a smaller Xbox One, unless I'm completely confused.

 

[StrategyFan]

sort of

maybe someone could figure out how to render good 1080p video that isn't just straightforward downsampling from 4x1080p, but aliasing/shimmering/flickering are the biggest problems with HD games today imo

msaa/fxaa/txaa/smaa/etc. are not enough
only ssaa is good so far, and that has similar performance to just increasing resolution

 

[Nirolak]

That's what I was trying to get at. Joe Consumer equated the power difference as being defined by the output resolution.

Sure, it may be better to go 1080p with better visuals, but you also have the battle of the bullet points to contend with for general consumer sentiment.

Or, it might not matter at all. Looks like they're betting native 4K output for gaming will be an important thing. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

I do want to say that it think it's very smart making the Xbox Scorpio capable of 4K either way.

We will presumably have publishers trying both approaches and will find out very quickly which consumers seem to prefer (or if it doesn't impact it with either approach).

Making sure they clearly have the better system should be a very strong bullet point for Microsoft regardless of how consumers prefer it to be used in the end.

 

[hodgy100]

wouldn't surprise me if they went with some sort of temporal up scaling for most games like quantum break to "achieve" 4k

 

[MilkBeard]

.

I'm just curious, what are the settings of that higher-end picture of Witcher 3? Is it just PC with max settings? Looks really good.

 

[Biggzy]

wouldn't surprise me if they went with some sort of temporal up scaling for most games like quantum break to "achieve" 4k

Well this is the sort of technique that Sony will be recommending for Neo titles.

 

[tuxfool]

I'm just curious, what are the settings of that higher-end picture of Witcher 3? Is it just PC with max settings? Looks really good.

That is about it. For more macroscopic shots some mods improve the quality of the scene, but those wouldn't apply here.

The single largest difference I find is IQ. It makes so much difference but many people dismiss it. That shot has been downsampled from 4K or 5k down to 1080p, and that is about it for settings not expressed in the in-game options.

This is the kind of clarity you'd get from a Scorpio if it were capable of 4K (which seems unlikely for this game at ultra settings). However even playing the game at 1440p downsampled to 1080p made such a difference in the, that when I look at witcher 3 at native 1080p, it looks kind of rough to me.

 

[Renekton]

1080p with all bells and whistles increased to max and the best MSAA still doesn't hold a candle to native 4K. It looks like a blurry mess by comparison.

Even with much lower screen complexity? GPU power saved by 1080p enables more detail, shadows, better lighting, occlusion, more objects onscreen, LOD, complex models, better animation, less janky collision, hair fur cloth simulation.

 

[Nirolak]

I'm just curious, what are the settings of that higher-end picture of Witcher 3? Is it just PC with max settings? Looks really good.

I pulled it out of the PC screenshot thread, yeah, so something designed for a 6 TFLOP GPU and making some smart optimizations might actually look a fair bit better (though slightly less clean image quality wise).

 

[HokieJoe]

The race for more pixels is nothing but a way to sell new TVs every five years.

Otherwise why not concentrate your efforts and new processing power to make 60fps, nicely aliased, flicker-less games ?

4K blurays, your say ? But how many movies where actually shot at ultra HD resolution? I hope you like shitty recent blockbusters, and even then the post production and SFX are made at 2K at most (source).

All of that will change going forward. It will take time to transition- just like it did with 480i/p to 720p/1080p.

 

[JaggedSac]

How well does 1440p scale to 4k?

 

[jet1911]

Supports 4K video output, HDR, and has a UHD BluRay drive. That's what makes it similar to Neo. It's not just a smaller Xbox One, unless I'm completely confused.

It's a smaller Xbox One with a UHD blu ray drive. The Neo is more powerful PS4. The S is not a "new" platform like the Neo is.

 

[RoboPlato]

Upscaling 1080p to 4k on my ASUS 28" 4k is not a pretty sight, this no doubt hugely depends on your monitor/TV, and what upscaling is being done. 1440p to 4k however, can look quite nice on it.

I forgot about monitors. Most TVs handle it perfectly.

I'd expect these consoles to have proper nearest neighbor scaling done on a hardware level anyway so it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[HokieJoe]

Yeah I'm still going to be playing on my 1080p HDTV for quite some time even after I put a GTX 1070 in my system.

I am currently no sort of rush for 4K.



Options are bad. I get it.

Some people are. Indeed, options are not bad.