Matt Lee might have a point if the game was a real estate simulator or something. But attacking a game for sexualizing women, that sexualizes violence the 89% of the time, in a deliberately over the top way no less, makes him and all the people agreeing with him look like a shortsighted jackass. Offcourse he has the excuse of harvesting clicks.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Killer is Dead 'can fuck off into space' - Matt Lees talks about "Gigolo mode"
- Thread starter Sinatar
- Start date
- Status
Suda is the director and writer for KiD, so he is very much involved, actually this is the first big project for him since the first No More Heroes. He was only the executive director/writer for NMH2 and has done some directing/writing for smaller games in between.
Everything I've seen says he's executive director on KiD. His name has been used to promote many games that he's had minimal involvement in for the past couple of years, it's hard to know just how much of a role he has at this point.
Shin Hideyuki seems to be the creative director for KiD, this is the guy in charge of the Gigolo mode most likely.
I think this very much depends on what woman you ask. Classically, muscular men have been the female sexual fantasy, and to a large portion of the world, this is still very much the case. The currently-accepted female sexual fantasy as depicted in anime and manga is actually pretty new, and I know an extraordinary number of women who can't stand that type, far preferring the classic warrior/quarterback.
I also don't know of many men who actually have power fantasies about muscles anymore. These days, male power fantasies are all about money and -- in some cases -- concubines.
I can't say for certain that Kamitani was aiming for a female sexual fantasy with his male designs in Dragon's Crown, but I tend to assume he was. Perhaps he was misguided in his approach, but either way, I'd be surprised if his aim with those characters was to create male power fantasy characters. Because if so, he missed the mark -- no man I know wants to play as a dude who looks like that, and certainly no man I know would ever want to BE a dude who looks like that.
-Tom
Some sites credit him as both THE director AND as the executive director...he really should clarify this
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Yeah that response was a complete cop out. Respect for engaging in the thread revoked. My bad for thinking he might actually take some of the well thought out responses on board.
SolidSnakex
Member
There's an interview in which Suda said he wrote the script, so at least he's the writer for KiD.
If he were the director then the trailers for the game would've made that clear.
Then who the hell's the director? Shin Hideyuki can't be it.
just watched this video. Fuck games "journalism." A lot of these guys seem to think that half backed societal commentary is a substitute for well written insightful pieces. As much as hate them for their news bloggy bullshit, kotaku and polygon can still at least sometimes have an incredible piece that gives the reader insight which they would not otherwise have acccess to. For example, this is recent story about Company of Heroes II on polygon was well written and informative, a solid piece of real games journalism. What Matt Lees did in this video is incredibly trash supermarket checkout line national enquirer quality "reporting" by comparison. Were he not a shameless hack, he would be expected to be ashamed of himself.
I'm already bracing myself for the truckloads of bullshit that are going to be accompanying the release of Dragon's Crown. Furious race to the bottom for those clicks is less than 2 weeks away.
I'm already bracing myself for the truckloads of bullshit that are going to be accompanying the release of Dragon's Crown. Furious race to the bottom for those clicks is less than 2 weeks away.
SolidSnakex
Member
Could be someone new or unknown. I don't think we found out who was actually directing Shadows of the Damned until it was released. The same thing happened with Lollipop. The director wasn't known until you watched the credits.
Look I'm sure he's involved to some degree obviously but he comes out for every major Grasshopper game and acts as the face of the company. He might have just written the general plot outline and concept and let the creative director handle the finer details.
I just feel like Suda has stopped being an "Auteur" a while ago so this makes the video extra questionable imo.
Shadows of the Damned was billed as a Suda/Mikami/Yamaoka joint but it turns out it was directed by this ex-Ubisoft guy call Massimo Guarini.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
2013 is the first year I've ever come across Matt Lees. It started with the commentary on the PS Meeting back in February and has continued though The Last of Us and E3. He's a new face and voice, so I probably saw this thread title before and didn't even think about it, because the name didn't job my memory.
To this thread though, as with Sessler flying off the handle about the GoW: A trophy, which I'm still struggling to forgive him/Destructoid/Rev3Games for, Marcus Beer and Garnett Lee getting caught up in the furor and subsequently apologizing, congrats on those two for admitting they were wrong, there's a problem with the Twitter-fication of the "news." What's happening and I'm just as guilty, is I think the Internet is ruining peoples ability to think coherently. There is a rush to react about everything. There's a rush to go on second hand information and react to that. There's a rush for website hits or article quotas (see Kotaku), YouTube video views, and the sense of being part of a movement whatever the agenda is. It's part of this "owned" culture. [You] said something or did something or are hinting at something and I've got to react fiercely and in an outraged manner to knock you down a couple of pegs. I'm the hollier than thou person and I know what's right and since you're wrong, so I'm gonna get embarrass you with a video response. Things don't and shouldn't work this way, especially when you're going on second-hand information, regardless of how trustworthy you think the source is. Unless you can see, hear, or taste the thing in question, what makes us want to rush to judgment so quickly?
I think about the Xbox DRM stuff and how I was disappointed that CheapAssGamer, GiantBomb, and Jeff Cannata for not getting all pissed off like I was or many other were. Why didn't they share my anger? why weren't they raging on the Internet on platforms far bigger than I have access to? Those of us that did had some valid points. Our messaging was the best in every instance. Considering how things have played out, some(?), many(?) of us had a complete lack of foresight. Everyone I mentioned previously looks more level-headed and justified in sitting back and not blowing their tops as we sit here on 7/28/2013. It's hard to sit out on the sidelines when there's a torrent of reaction. It's easy to get swept up in it to be part of the club; to be on the vocal team. Sometimes we all just have to sit back, take a breath, and be calm. I don't think it can happen overnight. However, we all need to do better and remove ourselves from the situation if we don't have all the facts and don't want to look back with shame at a later date.
At the end of the day, I've skimmed through a lot of this thread, read the Xseed employees rebuttal, watched the trailer, and ended up preordering the game. I had absolutely no clue of this games existence. I had no clue what genre it was in. Goichi "Suda 51" Suda is a name I've heard many times, seen many places, but I've never played on one of his games before. Killer is Dead was not on my radar beforehand and this haphazard incident piqued my interest and I will formulate my opinion after its release in late August.
To this thread though, as with Sessler flying off the handle about the GoW: A trophy, which I'm still struggling to forgive him/Destructoid/Rev3Games for, Marcus Beer and Garnett Lee getting caught up in the furor and subsequently apologizing, congrats on those two for admitting they were wrong, there's a problem with the Twitter-fication of the "news." What's happening and I'm just as guilty, is I think the Internet is ruining peoples ability to think coherently. There is a rush to react about everything. There's a rush to go on second hand information and react to that. There's a rush for website hits or article quotas (see Kotaku), YouTube video views, and the sense of being part of a movement whatever the agenda is. It's part of this "owned" culture. [You] said something or did something or are hinting at something and I've got to react fiercely and in an outraged manner to knock you down a couple of pegs. I'm the hollier than thou person and I know what's right and since you're wrong, so I'm gonna get embarrass you with a video response. Things don't and shouldn't work this way, especially when you're going on second-hand information, regardless of how trustworthy you think the source is. Unless you can see, hear, or taste the thing in question, what makes us want to rush to judgment so quickly?
I think about the Xbox DRM stuff and how I was disappointed that CheapAssGamer, GiantBomb, and Jeff Cannata for not getting all pissed off like I was or many other were. Why didn't they share my anger? why weren't they raging on the Internet on platforms far bigger than I have access to? Those of us that did had some valid points. Our messaging was the best in every instance. Considering how things have played out, some(?), many(?) of us had a complete lack of foresight. Everyone I mentioned previously looks more level-headed and justified in sitting back and not blowing their tops as we sit here on 7/28/2013. It's hard to sit out on the sidelines when there's a torrent of reaction. It's easy to get swept up in it to be part of the club; to be on the vocal team. Sometimes we all just have to sit back, take a breath, and be calm. I don't think it can happen overnight. However, we all need to do better and remove ourselves from the situation if we don't have all the facts and don't want to look back with shame at a later date.
At the end of the day, I've skimmed through a lot of this thread, read the Xseed employees rebuttal, watched the trailer, and ended up preordering the game. I had absolutely no clue of this games existence. I had no clue what genre it was in. Goichi "Suda 51" Suda is a name I've heard many times, seen many places, but I've never played on one of his games before. Killer is Dead was not on my radar beforehand and this haphazard incident piqued my interest and I will formulate my opinion after its release in late August.
SolidSnakex
Member
Gadamit.
Suda was the executive director of NMH2 and shadows of the damned
Gun Animal
Member
If you own a PS3 I reccomend picking up No More Heroes: Hero's Paradise. If you've got a Wii, there's NMH and NMH2. Killer7 is also worth tracking down, especially if you enjoy any of the directorial works of Jodorowsky. Skip Shadows of the Damned and Lollipop Chainsaw unless you already like Shinji Mikami and James Gunn, respectively.
I remember reading somewhere that he's heavily involved in everything besides the gameplay, not sure how valid that actually is though.
ruh roh
Then again, this game has Killer in its title, I'll just assume Suda is the director because of it.
The way I see it if the director is the boss, the EXECUTIVE director must be the bossiest of all bosses.
Then again, this game has Killer in its title, I'll just assume Suda is the director because of it.
The way I see it if the director is the boss, the EXECUTIVE director must be the bossiest of all bosses.
RelentlessRolento
Member
It's suda, wtf do people expect?
http://suda51.wikia.com/wiki/Goichi_Suda
Mikami is the executive producer, Suda is the executive director.
This whole director-executive thing is so dumb
people expect everything to be homogenized an inoffensive to all parties I guess. I'd like to see Matt Lees' shock at picking up a Playboy and realizing that there are in fact naked ladies in the magazine. How absolutely sexist and disgusting!
Seriously, it's insanity.
It just seems like he came into the office that day and saw a little crowd of coworkers huddled around someone playing the preview build. What is this?
OMG PAYING FOR SEX AND ORGASM NOISES, SO EMBARRASSING. SO DEGRADING AND MY COWORKERS THINK SO TOO, ONE OF THEM IS EVEN A FEMALE PROBABLY! LET ME DO 3 MINUTES OF GOOGLE RESEARCH AND OFF I GO MAKING A YOUTUBE VIDEO AND GOING OFF ON TWITTER! BYEEEEEEE!
Obviously this is all conjecture on my part but I have a hard time imagining it happened in a completely different fashion. I mean I get it, the preview build made them all feel uncomfortable and that's fine but to just condemn the entire thing without any context or frame of reference is just absolutely stupid. So many of his facts were proven wrong already and as someone who's supposed to be doing journalistic work that's pretty embarrassing in it's own right. This rush to get your opinion out there is getting out of control, do some legit research and please atleast play the damn game through before calling for someone's career to be over. Jesus Christ.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I don't really see how this isn't pure pandering, it was pretty obvious from the first reveal of it. That said, it doesn't automatically mean it is indefensible depending on context, or that it ruins the entire game. It may well underscore how Suda has been becoming far too juvenile for his own good over the years, but hey, Mel Brooks hasn't made a good movie in 30 years and I still like the guy, so I'll just have to see for myself. The rest of the game looks cool, so I'm not canceling my rental
In general, I like Matt Lees and Suda, so I think I'll have to come back to this argument after playing the game.
In general, I like Matt Lees and Suda, so I think I'll have to come back to this argument after playing the game.
TaroYamada
Member
This type of commentary does nothing for your side of the argument. It's unarguably discriminatory, more so than any of the opposing arguments I've seen in here against the vilification of this mode.
It's tough to take a movement seriously when one of the modus operandi amongst so many of its followers is to attempt to discredit opposing views on the basis of the race or sex of the individuals who hold them. It's a complete cop out argument that basically admits they cannot tackle the points and only the person.
WTF.....
I was giving him that for the sake of argument. His allegations are probably not totally baseless, but I'm saying that even given that the things he was saying were true (and we know that at least some of them aren't), it's not really a good idea to pass judgment like that without playing the game in its entirety, because other pieces of Suda 51's past work might seem like that if you look at isolated elements, but in fact use those elements to make very interesting statements.
TaroYamada
Member
White men are morally inadequate for these discussions says Krabboss' subjective moral code. He is, of course, operating under the false notion that morality is based upon objective realities. Also he apparently thinks it's ok to make racist/sexist commentary as long as the targets are white men, so he has an interesting moral code by my definition.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
What about Jewish white men? Not minority enough for you?
Arc Christelle
Member
As a Black Male who constantly butt heads with Taro Yamada, I agree with him.
That and he was cleary acting far more "upset" than he actually was - drama queen fishing for attention
Gun Animal
Member
Arc Christelle
Member
I just died.
For what it's worth, I really like how you've phrased this. It's something that's been on my mind for a while, but could never put into words. The wildfire spread of information and slander is so deadly these days; I hope people can soon relax like you say.
I don't really see how this isn't pure pandering, it was pretty obvious from the first reveal of it. That said, it doesn't automatically mean it is indefensible depending on context, or that it ruins the entire game. It may well underscore how Suda has been becoming far too juvenile for his own good over the years, but hey, Mel Brooks hasn't made a good movie in 30 years and I still like the guy, so I'll just have to see for myself. The rest of the game looks cool, so I'm not canceling my rental
In general, I like Matt Lees and Suda, so I think I'll have to come back to this argument after playing the game.
I don't think anyone is saying the current topic in question (gigolo mode) or general concept of questionable material in games is indefensible. People are simply saying that facts and context should at least be understood and made clear if you're going to present a weighted opinion on the subject.
You not canceling your rental, others not canceling their pre-orders, and indeed a whole wave of newly piqued interest for KiD show that this is not the way to tackle the problems that these people are so sorely trying to oppose.
If the intended result is for consumers just to raise the occasional eyebrow, then that has fast been achieved. But it's not going to go any further than that with the current trend of reporting, that inevitably leads to all this backlash.
michaelius
Banned
I was mostly shaking my head at the fact that the guy who made this video hasn't even touched the game and knows nothing about how all the pieces fit together in the complete game.
It's all just so ridiculous, people are damn near literally writing dissertations and essays on the game and it's not even out yet. All this talk of Suda 51 when he doesn't even seem that closely involved in the project, so much nonsense being thrown about.
To sum it up here is a visual representation of how I feel about this whole thing
That gif is sexist - juvenile cameramen male privaledged monster is pointing it constantly at her boobs.
SpicyKeychain
Neo Member
Late to the party here. Not sure if Matt Lees is still following this thread (typically when they say they aren't, they usually are), but I just had this bit to say:
Many of his detractors on this board agree with the sentiment of his argument, but they disagree with his methodology because they think it's sensationalist. Matt, think on this for a second. Lots of people who are attacking you are coming from a place of fear. The people who respond to you with ad hominems and the tired "it's just video games" refrain are becoming more and more ubiquitous. In a lot of ways, these people are unreasonable to begin with. In even more ways, it's intellectual dishonesty (I think Net.Wrecker or someone else used this term, which I think is very accurate) like yours which enables them. They may not be able to form coherent sentences or rebuttals (or, they might just choose not to), but they can sense weakness, and they can see that your alleged reasoning is flimsy as all hell. What does it say to these people when you have to resort to half-truths and distortion of something that you admittedly haven't even touched? How are you convincing anyone of anything other than the people who were set in their minds to hate this game? How is that fair to the creators, and the medium itself, you're covering?
So, to reiterate, GAF hates a lot of things, but one thing they can't be faulted for is their hatred of intellectual dishonesty, and especially when that's in conjunction with people twisting the narrative to fit their argument. And through all of this distortion of accusations leveled at you, you somehow manage to sling yourself to the moral high road while expressly choosing not to answer other GAFfer's well-reasoned and respectful responses to you.
My suggestion to you is this: if you want to entertain people, then entertain them. If you want to inform people, then inform them. Part of the reason games journalism has, as you put it, "lost its way" is because the people who've tasked themselves to perform this job do a piss-poor job of it because of this self-imposed schizophrenia. Are you the gatekeepers of cool, arbiters of taste, or the guidestones of morality? You can't be all of them. That's not what journalists do. I'd argue that games journalism has never had a way, but really fucked itself when game writers and journalists started to insert themselves into their stories, like you have.
The next time, before you embark on your next chest-thumping, back-patting campaign of soapboxing, I think you should first take a look at the work of critics like Jenn Frank or Leigh Alexander. I have a hard time agreeing with them sometimes (this is true especially with Leigh), but I will not deny the fact that they are great at what they do. Leigh Alexander, in particular, has made more inflammatory, direct remarks towards the gaming populace than you have and yet, she doesn't attract this level of vitriol that you have welcomed with this video.
Why? Because there is no engineering of facts or misrepresentation on their part, at least not on the scale that you have perpetrated with your highly uninformative video.
Whenever they write something, they make us think. Unlike you, they're not trying to do the thinking for us and then getting offended when we say, "don't do that."
And when they're encouraging us to think, they appeal to the better angels of our nature. Unlike you, they're not appealing to us through the implicit hope that we recognize the better angels of their nature.
They're trying to encourage, not enforce or shame, change into the equation. Unlike you, they don't do any of this because they actually understand the stakes here and how crucial of a juncture these issues have reached in gaming culture.
Again, Matt, intellectual dishonesty will get you nowhere. Except for earning more detractors on GAF, unless that was your intent to begin with. Your passion does not preclude scrutiny. Your tunnel-vision demagoguery helps no one but you and your ego. If my demanding that game journalists actually do their goddamn jobs makes me your enemy, then I'm fucking proud to wear that badge.
Many of his detractors on this board agree with the sentiment of his argument, but they disagree with his methodology because they think it's sensationalist. Matt, think on this for a second. Lots of people who are attacking you are coming from a place of fear. The people who respond to you with ad hominems and the tired "it's just video games" refrain are becoming more and more ubiquitous. In a lot of ways, these people are unreasonable to begin with. In even more ways, it's intellectual dishonesty (I think Net.Wrecker or someone else used this term, which I think is very accurate) like yours which enables them. They may not be able to form coherent sentences or rebuttals (or, they might just choose not to), but they can sense weakness, and they can see that your alleged reasoning is flimsy as all hell. What does it say to these people when you have to resort to half-truths and distortion of something that you admittedly haven't even touched? How are you convincing anyone of anything other than the people who were set in their minds to hate this game? How is that fair to the creators, and the medium itself, you're covering?
So, to reiterate, GAF hates a lot of things, but one thing they can't be faulted for is their hatred of intellectual dishonesty, and especially when that's in conjunction with people twisting the narrative to fit their argument. And through all of this distortion of accusations leveled at you, you somehow manage to sling yourself to the moral high road while expressly choosing not to answer other GAFfer's well-reasoned and respectful responses to you.
My suggestion to you is this: if you want to entertain people, then entertain them. If you want to inform people, then inform them. Part of the reason games journalism has, as you put it, "lost its way" is because the people who've tasked themselves to perform this job do a piss-poor job of it because of this self-imposed schizophrenia. Are you the gatekeepers of cool, arbiters of taste, or the guidestones of morality? You can't be all of them. That's not what journalists do. I'd argue that games journalism has never had a way, but really fucked itself when game writers and journalists started to insert themselves into their stories, like you have.
The next time, before you embark on your next chest-thumping, back-patting campaign of soapboxing, I think you should first take a look at the work of critics like Jenn Frank or Leigh Alexander. I have a hard time agreeing with them sometimes (this is true especially with Leigh), but I will not deny the fact that they are great at what they do. Leigh Alexander, in particular, has made more inflammatory, direct remarks towards the gaming populace than you have and yet, she doesn't attract this level of vitriol that you have welcomed with this video.
Why? Because there is no engineering of facts or misrepresentation on their part, at least not on the scale that you have perpetrated with your highly uninformative video.
Whenever they write something, they make us think. Unlike you, they're not trying to do the thinking for us and then getting offended when we say, "don't do that."
And when they're encouraging us to think, they appeal to the better angels of our nature. Unlike you, they're not appealing to us through the implicit hope that we recognize the better angels of their nature.
They're trying to encourage, not enforce or shame, change into the equation. Unlike you, they don't do any of this because they actually understand the stakes here and how crucial of a juncture these issues have reached in gaming culture.
Again, Matt, intellectual dishonesty will get you nowhere. Except for earning more detractors on GAF, unless that was your intent to begin with. Your passion does not preclude scrutiny. Your tunnel-vision demagoguery helps no one but you and your ego. If my demanding that game journalists actually do their goddamn jobs makes me your enemy, then I'm fucking proud to wear that badge.
Someone get this junior a badge, please.
I think we've got an extra one over here. It was confiscated from SUDA51 by Matt Lees.
(Sorry, couldn't resist! Heheheh...)
-Tom
SpicyKeychain
Neo Member
*smirks*
Ugh, I'm tired of beta white-knights like this guy. Stop trying to create controversy to get clicks.
Suda 51 can do whatever he wants, I probably wont buy the game, but that's mostly because I don't care for his style of games. But, the industry definitely needs more people like him creating original and unique titles.
Suda 51 can do whatever he wants, I probably wont buy the game, but that's mostly because I don't care for his style of games. But, the industry definitely needs more people like him creating original and unique titles.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
+1 Spicy for the Lincoln reference
I sure have a knack for terrible top page contributions
I sure have a knack for terrible top page contributions
If you want to see the game in action it's being streamed on Twitch right now. The streamer got Dragon's Crown early, so I assume it's the same case here.
http://www.twitch.tv/moruid
http://www.twitch.tv/moruid
God, every time I go inside an early release stream I get a face full of endboss or MAJOR spoilers.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I *honestly* am not aware about the existence of this game--well, not entirely true, I heard the name in a really vague way--and I have NO IDEA at all about it being released in August.
Not until this thread at the very least.
Now I am looking forward to get my hands on it.
Not until this thread at the very least.
Now I am looking forward to get my hands on it.
Gun Animal
Member
He's held in high regard by a small group of people who enjoy strange, heavily symbolic and experimental storytelling and colorful, high contrast cell shading, as well as anyone who just can't decide between lightsabers and mexican wrestling. These aren't AAA games and they aren't aimed at a broad audience. Sorry about your skull, though.
- Status