• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Leftist Case for Clinton - For those of you relunctantly voting Clinton

Status
Not open for further replies.

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
I was not enamored with the prospect of Clinton, I preferred Bernie. I also at least subconsciously believed all the smears against her.

I have since read several articles like this one and they have definitely convinced me she is a great candidate. There is some definite truth to what he says that Clinton supporters have spent the last year on the defensive.

Definitely read the whole article, but here are some key bits.

My friends are voting for Clinton, but they feel bullied into it. People who were enthusiastic in 2008 and 2012, who poo-pooed ambivalence and picked fights with Republicans, today feel like reluctant pawns in someone else’s chess game. “I’ll vote for her,” they tell me, “but this really feels like a lose-lose.”

It’s simply demoralizing to trek all the way back to the American center, where the topic up for discussion is whether Muslims and Mexicans are too scary to let into the country.

If that sounds a little strong, consider this: Clinton supporters have been stuck playing defense all year, swatting away criticisms and scandals, hoping that once the fog cleared, everyone would see the formidable politician beneath. So no one’s really bothered to make the positive case for President Hillary Clinton.

Pause and step back. If Hillary Clinton died tomorrow, she’d already be remembered as a towering figure of the progressive and feminist movements.

Keep in mind: Clinton was the first First Lady who wasn’t a homemaker. The Republican Party at the time still considered working mothers a threat to “family values,” and Clinton’s very existence in the national spotlight made her Public Enemy №1 of the antifeminist movement. She was branded as a “congenital liar” (PolitiFact: she is the 2nd most honest candidate on record.) She had to bake cookies

Her Senate voting record makes her more liberal than Obama — and only slightly less liberal than Sanders, a self-described socialist.

To her opponents, this is horrifying — and well it should be. Sean Hannity says she’ll be “President Obama on steroids.” Laura Ingraham says this election is the “last stand for America as we know it.” This is what’s holding the Republican Party together: the threat of what Clinton could accomplish.

In the last year, a tide of white nationalism has rocked the entire Western world, with far-right anti-immigrant parties winning unprecedented electoral victories throughout Europe. Meanwhile, straddling grassroots insurgents on the left and right, personally disliked by 53% of Americans, and facing an extremely hostile media environment, Clinton has not once dipped below an electoral college majority.

If you feel this way, here’s what I’ll say: You don’t need to consider her a role model to see that she is an extremely powerful ally. It’s an inconvenient reality that for every MLK you also need an LBJ — someone who knows the gears and levers of Washington inside and out, who collects notes from hundreds of meetings with activists and academics and turns them into policy, who builds coalitions and woos opponents, who sits at the damn desk and signs the damn bill.

He goes on to take about her foreign policy as well.

link to the article https://medium.com/@milobela/the-leftist-case-for-clinton-c5de3dfd8a67#.cr7nphhti

Searched, reluctantly support me if old.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Link to the article mentioned?

The smear campaign on the Clintons has been one for the ages.
 
I just detest the fact that I feel I have no viable choice but to vote for Clinton.

And I mean I was never a Bernie Bro. I'm just sad about the whole thing and I can't seem to shake it. I can either vote third party as a sorta "fuck you" to the void or I can suck it up and vote Clinton.

I'm not a democrat but many of my views align more with their platform than republicans and I'm not a single issue voter so overall I gotta select the candidate that will fuck over Black people the least. And my family's bottom line the least. That's Clinton.

I just wish I lived in a magical land where we had multiple sane political parties with different yet competing ideas without the batshit.

Ugh.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I just detest the fact that I feel I have no viable choice but to vote for Clinton.

And I mean I was never a Bernie Bro. I'm just sad about the whole thing and I can't seem to shake it. I can either vote third party as a sorta "fuck you" to the void or I can suck it up and vote Clinton.

I'm not a democrat but many of my views align more with their platform than republicans and I'm not a single issue voter so overall I gotta select the candidate that will fuck over Black people the least. And my family's bottom line the least. That's Clinton.

I just wish I lived in a magical land where we had multiple sane political parties with different yet competing ideas without the batshit.

Ugh.

ISn't this more of a problem with america's entrenched 2 party system?
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
I just detest the fact that I feel I have no viable choice but to vote for Clinton.

And I mean I was never a Bernie Bro. I'm just sad about the whole thing and I can't seem to shake it. I can either vote third party as a sorta "fuck you" to the void or I can suck it up and vote Clinton.

I'm not a democrat but many of my views align more with their platform than republicans and I'm not a single issue voter so overall I gotta select the candidate that will fuck over Black people the least. And my family's bottom line the least. That's Clinton.

I just wish I lived in a magical land where we had multiple sane political parties with different yet competing ideas without the batshit.

Ugh.
Shaun King said today that the "Mothers of the Movement" have spent a lot of time with Clinton and she has listened and understood and evolved.

I think we do have one sane political party, and its coincidentally the party that im voting for. I also think they are the only party that remotely cares about minorities.
 

johnsmith

remember me
Hillary Clinton is the most far-left major party candidate this country has ever seen. Not sure what other argument any reasonable person needs.
 
Hillary Clinton is the most far-left major party candidate this country has ever seen. Not sure what other argument any reasonable person needs.

an argument can be made for her moving to whatever gets her elected. its not very clear what her policies are or how much she believes in them. and lets be honest here, if she was against any other candidate the constant stream of bribes/dealings/whatever that she has circling around her and Bill would have sunk her.
 

Formless

Member
Not 100% on board with Clinton but I will vote for her.

I'm basically chalking up most of her scandals and shortcomings to damage the political system has done to her as a person.
 

gaugebozo

Member
I just detest the fact that I feel I have no viable choice but to vote for Clinton.

And I mean I was never a Bernie Bro. I'm just sad about the whole thing and I can't seem to shake it. I can either vote third party as a sorta "fuck you" to the void or I can suck it up and vote Clinton.

I'm not a democrat but many of my views align more with their platform than republicans and I'm not a single issue voter so overall I gotta select the candidate that will fuck over Black people the least. And my family's bottom line the least. That's Clinton.

I just wish I lived in a magical land where we had multiple sane political parties with different yet competing ideas without the batshit.

Ugh.
You DO live there. The difference is that these parties have a run off before the general election that we call a primary. We then choose from two candidates who were the winners of these primaries. In other countries, the majority must form a coalition and you don't know who you're getting. We form the coalition before the election. I actually prefer our system.
 

totowhoa

Banned
I'm a huge fan of Clinton when it comes to general social issues (all this country cares about), but I have YUGE fucking issues when it comes to her actually dealing with long-term, endemic issues like political corruption, foreign intervention, rampant war, trade/special interests, traditions that enforce the two party system, and more that have significant long terms impacts. I prefer her stance on immigration / refugees, but I'm a borderline anarchist on that front in that I wish she was way, way further left. I'm afraid we won't ever get a candidate that addresses these issues in a positive way, which will have a huge impact on the country's longevity.

Obviously Trump isn't a savior here, but she is not the candidate I want, and I don't think she's the candidate we need.

It feels like it isn't that much to ask for somebody who cares about basic human rights AND the future of our political system. Wish we could find that candidate, but I don't think our system is designed to reward people to campaign on that.

Edit: And I'm voting for Clinton in lieu of a fucking political march, which I hope this country's unrest eventually brings (for the right reasons).
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
an argument can be made for her moving to whatever gets her elected. its not very clear what her policies are or how much she believes in them. and lets be honest here, if she was against any other candidate the constant stream of bribes/dealings/whatever that she has circling around her and Bill would have sunk her.

Oh boy.
 

Feep

Banned
I'm a huge fan of Clinton when it comes to general social issues (all this country cares about), but I have YUGE fucking issues when it comes to her actually dealing with long-term, endemic issues like political corruption, foreign intervention, rampant war, trade/special interests, traditions that enforce the two party system, and more that have significant long terms impacts. I prefer her stance on immigration / refugees, but I'm a borderline anarchist on that front in that I wish she was way, way further left. I'm afraid we won't ever get a candidate that addresses these issues in a positive way, which will have a huge impact on the country's longevity.

Obviously Trump isn't a savior here, but she is not the candidate I want, and I don't think she's the candidate we need.

It feels like it isn't that much to ask for somebody who cares about basic human rights AND the future of our political system. Wish we could find that candidate, but I don't think our system is designed to reward people to campaign on that.
Liberal supreme court judges who oppose Citizens United is a pretty fair start, man. Perfect is the enemy of the good.
 

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Liberal supreme court judges who oppose Citizens United is a pretty fair start, man. Perfect is the enemy of the good.

Yup...no President ever would be able to tackle all those issues in their timespan. SCOTUS on the other hand...
 

totowhoa

Banned
^ You're both right and maybe I'm asking for too much. I'm not wholly displeased with Clinton, and I look forward to the new SCOTUS.

I'm just a frustrated millennial who's never seen a truly good, revolutionary term :)
 
^ You're both right and maybe I'm asking for too much. I'm not wholly displeased with Clinton, and I look forward to the new SCOTUS.

I'm just a frustrated millennial who's never seen a truly good, revolutionary term :)

You better pray you don't actually ever see a real Revolution. Actual Revolutions are violent and bloody and I'd really wish people stop tossing that word around so easily.
 

totowhoa

Banned
You better pray you don't actually ever see a real Revolution. Actual Revolutions are violent and bloody and I'd really wish people stop tossing that word around so easily.

Fair enough - reform would have been the more appropriate word.

It gets tossed around in every election, but true reformation does not happen. For fairly obvious reasons and roadblocks that I'd like addressed.
 
I just detest the fact that I feel I have no viable choice but to vote for Clinton.

And I mean I was never a Bernie Bro. I'm just sad about the whole thing and I can't seem to shake it. I can either vote third party as a sorta "fuck you" to the void or I can suck it up and vote Clinton.

I'm not a democrat but many of my views align more with their platform than republicans and I'm not a single issue voter so overall I gotta select the candidate that will fuck over Black people the least. And my family's bottom line the least. That's Clinton.

I just wish I lived in a magical land where we had multiple sane political parties with different yet competing ideas without the batshit.

Ugh.

Trust me, as long as you have FPTP you don't want that. Look at the previous 10 years in Canada which was owned by Conservatives, or the past 6 years of the UK (Conservatives) because our Electoral System allowed our Leftist Parties to split the vote to let them win big.

All you would end up with in the USA is multiple popular leftist parties, and a single Conservative party which results in constant republican wins
 

Dmented

Banned
I walked into two separate "she should be in jail" conversations today . It is quite something.

Could someone explain why exactly she should be in jail? I'm assuming it's over this whole email bullshit but one would figure that's nothing really jail worthy. So am I missing something?

I just detest the fact that I feel I have no viable choice but to vote for Clinton.

And I mean I was never a Bernie Bro. I'm just sad about the whole thing and I can't seem to shake it. I can either vote third party as a sorta "fuck you" to the void or I can suck it up and vote Clinton.

I'm not a democrat but many of my views align more with their platform than republicans and I'm not a single issue voter so overall I gotta select the candidate that will fuck over Black people the least. And my family's bottom line the least. That's Clinton.

I just wish I lived in a magical land where we had multiple sane political parties with different yet competing ideas without the batshit.

Ugh.

I have very similar views to you. I also am not a democrat (nor affiliated with any party whatsoever) and I also vote for what will overall be more beneficial to myself, family and friends. Trump is the furthest thing from that, Gary Johnson (IMO) is a moron, Jill Stein... (IMO as well) also a moron, so this leaves us will Hillary.

While she is not the ideal candidate, she is the closest thing that has similar beliefs as I do and isn't totally psycho.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
an argument can be made for her moving to whatever gets her elected. its not very clear what her policies are or how much she believes in them. and lets be honest here, if she was against any other candidate the constant stream of bribes/dealings/whatever that she has circling around her and Bill would have sunk her.

She has bribes and dealings coming out of her whatever.
 

Cocaloch

Member
You better pray you don't actually ever see a real Revolution. Actual Revolutions are violent and bloody and I'd really wish people stop tossing that word around so easily.

There are plenty of revolutionary changes that aren't really that violent and bloody. We can distinguish between a general revolution within the political system, the kind typified in the British-American tradition, and the more violent sorts a la the French, Russian, and to a lesser extend '48.

I'd say America and Britain underwent one of the former, though for the worst, in the 80's.

Coincidentally both countries desperately needs a pivot in the political and public sphere.

Not even remotely true.

I mean this depends on your metrics, but it certainly, especially on economic matters, can be easily argued for.
 

120v

Member
i just hope people give her a fair shot. i can see a repeat of obama's first term where people just yell and throw their beer at the TV no matter how well of a job she does. the caveat with obama was that he had high personal favorables so when the rubber hit the road he got his second term. hillary won't have that overhead
 

Dmented

Banned
i just hope people give her a shot. i can see a repeat of obama's first term where people just yell and throw their beer at the TV no matter how well of a job she does. the caveat with obama was that he had high personal favorables so when the rubber hit the road he got his second term. hillary won't have that overhead

No one is going to "give her a shot". If you think the vitriol that's been tossed her way now is bad, wait until she is actually president. It will never stop. She will always be a liar, always be a criminal, always be a murderer, always be... anything the people who detest her want her to be.

Granted another sane candidate comes 2020, I highly doubt Hillary gets another 4 years.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
Pretty much every single DNC nominee from FDR to Mondale was more "left" than Hillary.

If that were true, then we would have had equal pay decades ago. We would have had LGBTI protection since Truman. But we don't. Because what you're saying is wrong.
 
Fair enough - reform would have been the more appropriate word.

It gets tossed around in every election, but true reformation does not happen. For fairly obvious reasons and roadblocks that I'd like addressed.
I find this opinion mind boggling! Reform doesn't happen? Why is that? Are we electing a monarchy? Or a dictator? Monarchs and dictators can make unilateral "reforms".
 

Cocaloch

Member
If that were true, then we would have had equal pay decades ago. We would have had LGBTI protection since Truman. But we don't. Because what you're saying is wrong.

This is pretty anachronistic. Gay and Lesbian were just shaping as the identities we now know in the period, and there certainly wasn't any modern conception of the last 3 letters at this point either.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
This is pretty anachronistic.

I know it is. Because what he or she says makes no sense. EDIT: Oh, I didn't catch your edit. Ignore that part then. Replace it with an equivalent of the Civil Rights Act but sooner than JFK and LBJ.
 
Y'know what I hate most about this election. This importance placed on "feelings".

America needs to be made great again—because we "feel" like all the good times are behind us. Screw data that says otherwise, it "feels" bad.

Hillary is a crappy candidate because she "feels" dishonest. Never mind what Politifact says. She "feels" less liberal.

What happened to making decisions based on actual facts?
 

Cocaloch

Member
I know it is. Because what he or she says makes no sense.

I can understand how it might make no sense in some ways, but it some other very reasonable ways it both makes sense and is true. The political sphere has fundamentally changed. Any sort of 1 to 1 comparison will run into issues, but on a number of points Hilary is certainly not to her predecessors' left.

Ultimately it isn't a particularly meaningful move. Any sort of comparison between modern figures and historical ones run into massive flaws.

The better statement is that Hilary is not particularly leftist economically.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
I can understand how it might make no sense in some ways, but it some other very reasonable ways it both makes sense and is true. The political sphere has fundamentally changed. Any sort of 1 to 1 comparison will run into issues, but on a number of points Hilary is certainly not to her predecessors' left.

To be honest, I want to see actual arguments, not just "on a number of points it is true", because I'm not seeing the reason in saying she's in the 'center' to predecessors. EDIT: We need to stop editing after posting hahaha. Okay, I suppose I understand your point on that.
 

Cocaloch

Member
To be honest, I want to see actual arguments, because I'm not seeing the reason in saying she's in the 'center'.

I mean the most obvious argument is the general, i.e. not American, spectrum of Socialist - Social Democrat - Liberal (or Neo-Liberal)

On this spectrum she clearly is on the right, though the centrist right.

Of course the vast majority of Americans are to her right on this spectrum as well.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
I'm just gonna post her Wellesley speech.

I am very glad that Miss Adams made it clear that what I am speaking for today is all of us—the 400 of us—and I find myself in a familiar position, that of reacting, something that our generation has been doing for quite a while now. We're not in the positions yet of leadership and power, but we do have that indispensable element of criticizing and constructive protest and I find myself reacting just briefly to some of the things that Senator Brooke said. This has to be quick because I do have a little speech to give.

Part of the problem with just empathy with professed goals is that empathy doesn't do us anything. We've had lots of empathy; we've had lots of sympathy, but we feel that for too long our leaders have viewed politics as the art of the possible. And the challenge now is to practice politics as the art of making what appears to be impossible possible. What does it mean to hear that 13.3 percent of the people in this country are below the poverty line? That's a percentage. We're not interested in social reconstruction; it's human reconstruction. How can we talk about percentages and trends? The complexities are not lost in our analyses, but perhaps they're just put into what we consider a more human and eventually a more progressive perspective.

The question about possible and impossible was one that we brought with us to Wellesley four years ago. We arrived not yet knowing what was not possible. Consequently, we expected a lot. Our attitudes are easily understood having grown up, having come to consciousness in the first five years of this decade—years dominated by men with dreams, men in the civil rights movement, the Peace Corps, the space program—so we arrived at Wellesley and we found, as all of us have found, that there was a gap between expectation and realities. But it wasn't a discouraging gap and it didn't turn us into cynical, bitter old women at the age of 18. It just inspired us to do something about that gap. What we did is often difficult for some people to understand. They ask us quite often: "Why, if you're dissatisfied, do you stay in a place?" Well, if you didn't care a lot about it you wouldn't stay. It's almost as though my mother used to say, "You know I'll always love you but there are times when I certainly won't like you." Our love for this place, this particular place, Wellesley College, coupled with our freedom from the burden of an inauthentic reality allowed us to question basic assumptions underlying our education.

Before the days of the media orchestrated demonstrations, we had our own gathering over in Founder's parking lot. We protested against the rigid academic distribution requirement. We worked for a pass-fail system. We worked for a say in some of the process of academic decision making. And luckily we were at a place where, when we questioned the meaning of a liberal arts education there were people with enough imagination to respond to that questioning. So we have made progress. We have achieved some of the things that we initially saw as lacking in that gap between expectation and reality. Our concerns were not, of course, solely academic as all of us know. We worried about inside Wellesley questions of admissions, the kind of people that were coming to Wellesley, the kind of people that should be coming to Wellesley, the process for getting them here. We questioned about what responsibility we should have both for our lives as individuals and for our lives as members of a collective group.

Coupled with our concerns for the Wellesley inside here in the community were our concerns for what happened beyond Hathaway House. We wanted to know what relationship Wellesley was going to have to the outer world. We were lucky in that Miss Adams, one of the first things she did was set up a cross-registration with MIT because everyone knows that education just can't have any parochial bounds anymore. One of the other things that we did was the Upward Bound program. There are so many other things that we could talk about; so many attempts to kind of - at least the way we saw it - pull ourselves into the world outside. And I think we've succeeded. There will be an Upward Bound program, just for one example, on the campus this summer.

Many of the issues that I've mentioned—those of sharing power and responsibility, those of assuming power and responsibility—have been general concerns on campuses throughout the world. But underlying those concerns there is a theme, a theme which is so trite and so old because the words are so familiar. It talks about integrity and trust and respect. Words have a funny way of trapping our minds on the way to our tongues but there are necessary means even in this multimedia age for attempting to come to grasps with some of the inarticulate maybe even inarticulable things that we're feeling.

We are, all of us, exploring a world that none of us even understands and attempting to create within that uncertainty. But there are some things we feel, feelings that our prevailing, acquisitive, and competitive corporate life, including tragically the universities, is not the way of life for us. We're searching for more immediate, ecstatic, and penetrating modes of living. And so our questions, our questions about our institutions, about our colleges, about our churches, about our government continue. The questions about those institutions are familiar to all of us. We have seen them heralded across the newspapers. Senator Brooke has suggested some of them this morning. But along with using these words—integrity, trust, and respect—in regard to institutions and leaders, we're perhaps harshest with them in regard to ourselves.

Every protest, every dissent, whether it's an individual academic paper or Founder's parking lot demonstration, is unabashedly an attempt to forge an identity in this particular age. That attempt at forging for many of us over the past four years has meant coming to terms with our humanness. Within the context of a society that we perceive—now we can talk about reality, and I would like to talk about reality sometime, authentic reality, inauthentic reality, and what we have to accept of what we see—but our perception of it is that it hovers often between the possibility of disaster and the potentiality for imaginatively responding to men's needs. There's a very strange conservative strain that goes through a lot of New Left, collegiate protests that I find very intriguing because it harkens back to a lot of the old virtues, to the fulfillment of original ideas. And it's also a very unique American experience. It's such a great adventure. If the experiment in human living doesn't work in this country, in this age, it's not going to work anywhere.

But we also know that to be educated, the goal of it must be human liberation. A liberation enabling each of us to fulfill our capacity so as to be free to create within and around ourselves. To be educated to freedom must be evidenced in action, and here again is where we ask ourselves, as we have asked our parents and our teachers, questions about integrity, trust, and respect. Those three words mean different things to all of us. Some of the things they can mean, for instance: Integrity, the courage to be whole, to try to mold an entire person in this particular context, living in relation to one another in the full poetry of existence. If the only tool we have ultimately to use is our lives, so we use it in the way we can by choosing a way to live that will demonstrate the way we feel and the way we know. Integrity—a man like Paul Santmire. Trust. This is one word that when I asked the class at our rehearsal what it was they wanted me to say for them, everyone came up to me and said "Talk about trust, talk about the lack of trust both for us and the way we feel about others. Talk about the trust bust." What can you say about it? What can you say about a feeling that permeates a generation and that perhaps is not even understood by those who are distrusted? All we can do is keep trying again and again and again. There's that wonderful line in "East Coker" by Eliot about there's only the trying, again and again and again; to win again what we've lost before.

And then respect. There's that mutuality of respect between people where you don't see people as percentage points. Where you don't manipulate people. Where you're not interested in social engineering for people. The struggle for an integrated life existing in an atmosphere of communal trust and respect is one with desperately important political and social consequences. And the word consequences of course catapults us into the future. One of the most tragic things that happened yesterday, a beautiful day, was that I was talking to a woman who said that she wouldn't want to be me for anything in the world. She wouldn't want to live today and look ahead to what it is she sees because she's afraid. Fear is always with us but we just don't have time for it. Not now.

There are two people that I would like to thank before concluding. That's Ellie Acheson, who is the spearhead for this, and also Nancy Scheibner who wrote this poem which is the last thing that I would like to read:

My entrance into the world of so-called "social problems"
Must be with quiet laughter, or not at all.
The hollow men of anger and bitterness
The bountiful ladies of righteous degradation
All must be left to a bygone age.
And the purpose of history is to provide a receptacle
For all those myths and oddments
Which oddly we have acquired
And from which we would become unburdened
To create a newer world
To translate the future into the past.
We have no need of false revolutions
In a world where categories tend to tyrannize our minds
And hang our wills up on narrow pegs.
It is well at every given moment to seek the limits in our lives.
And once those limits are understood
To understand that limitations no longer exist.
Earth could be fair. And you and I must be free
Not to save the world in a glorious crusade
Not to kill ourselves with a nameless gnawing pain
But to practice with all the skill of our being
The art of making possible.

Thanks
 

JordanN

Banned
Even though I support Sanders and Jill stein, I still hope Hillary wins.

Trump is America's new George Wallace. It doesn't matter if Trump promises flowers and free candy if he wins, he's cultivated a campaign that only benefits white people. Look at all the hate groups and alt-right backing him. His presidency will embolden them.
 

Torokil

Member
If that were true, then we would have had equal pay decades ago. We would have had LGBTI protection since Truman. But we don't. Because what you're saying is wrong.

How is punting gay rights to the supreme court for years and ignoring equal pay remotely comparable to the Civil Rights act, the new deal, the great society, etc etc? Obama and Clinton were outright afraid to support gay rights until, coincidentally I'm sure, support hit 51%. Meanwhile new dealers lost an entire region of voters based on the civil rights act.
 
And when it really comes down to it, I feel woefully unqualified to make these kinds of judgments. I always have to remind myself: Clinton is smarter than me, more knowledgeable and more experienced than me. I should absolutely voice my concerns when I have them, but I shouldn’t pretend that this kind of reasoned disagreement is even close to disqualifying.

Fucking lmao
 

120v

Member
No one is going to "give her a shot". If you think the vitriol that's been tossed her way now is bad, wait until she is actually president. It will never stop. She will always be a liar, always be a criminal, always be a murderer, always be... anything the people who detest her want her to be.

Granted another sane candidate comes 2020, I highly doubt Hillary gets another 4 years.

thing is, her favorables are pretty up there whenever she's not running for office. not sure why simply running has such an utterly drastic turnaround, to the effect that she's a murderer, K-street hack, ect. but there's the question of whether that really does continue or if holding office will sort of bring her image "back to earth"

i mean, i don't hold any illusions everybody will hold hands and sing kumbaya once she's sworn in but it'll be the first time ever she won't be seeking a higher office. so it's a question mark.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
How is punting gay rights to the supreme court for years and ignoring equal pay remotely comparable to the Civil Rights act, the new deal, the great society, etc etc? Obama and Clinton were outright afraid to support gay rights until, coincidentally I'm sure, support hit 51%. Meanwhile new dealers lost an entire region of voters based on the civil rights act.

I was knowingly falling into the folly of comparing several incomparable historical situations, to make a point that we shouldn't compare Clinton's positions to FDR and saying the latter is more liberal than the former.
 

Slayven

Member
This is pretty anachronistic. Gay and Lesbian were just shaping as the identities we now know in the period, and there certainly wasn't any modern conception of the last 3 letters at this point either.

Stonewall happened in 1969. Not talked about in polite company and not existing are too very different things
 

Cocaloch

Member
Stonewall happened in 1969. Not talked about in polite company and not existing are too very different things

Truman became president in 1945. A lot happened in the following 29 years, and I'm not even sure if I'd feel comfortable saying that the modern gay identity had solidified by stonewall, that seems to be something that happened in its aftermath in the 70's. A big part of this was the exclusion of African-American culture by the way.

Identities are not platonic types set in stone. They emerged from a social context, and many of them did that rather recently.

Gay New York by George Chauncey supports my point on the 40's and 50's rather nicely I think.
 

Veelk

Banned
Fucking lmao

I don't exactly see it as wrong. There is no way to shake the fact that Hillary Clinton is one of the most sharply educated woman on the planet in terms of politics.

You can disagree with any given doctor's diagnosis, and he might even be incorrect, but you still defer to doctors on the assumption that they are more educated than you with medicine because that's what their job is supposed to be, to be more educated than you on medical matters.

Granted, a doctor's job is far easier in many ways. Identify disease and subscribe the best proven cure. It's based in fact and science. A politicians job is one that is far, far less clear in what the solutions are because it is an ever changing system of people rather than physics. As a result, there is only so far even the best expert can see.

But the premise of the idea that one who is more educated and experienced is going to have more perspective on any given subject than a relative layman, even one that does his research, is not wrong and the fundamental reason we have experts in anything. So we can defer to them, even in the presence of our own well reasoned opinions. So yeah, it's not outrageous to point out that realistically speaking, Hillary probably has a better idea on what to do than most.
 

Cocaloch

Member
I don't exactly see it as wrong. There is no way to shake the fact that Hillary Clinton is one of the most sharply educated woman on the planet in terms of politics.

She's certainly got a lot of skill as a politician. I don't think anything about politicians really makes them intellectuals though.

You can even disagree with doctor's diagnosis, and he might even be correct, but you still defer to the doctor on the assumption that him being more educated than you with medicine because that's what his job is supposed to be, to be more educated than you on that particular subject.

Are doctors and politicians really similar enough for this metaphor to work? I think the matter of interests makes them quite distinct.

But the premise of the idea that one who is more educated and experienced is going to have more perspective on any given subject than a relative layman is not wrong.

I think people should cautiously respect expert communities. A single politician is not an expert community though.

That being said Hilary obviously respects the relevant expert communities more than Trump who essentially is running as an anti-intellectual.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom