Could be half the Zelda threads in the whole web ultimately becoming "SS is horrible" MIGHT have something to do with it.
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Legend of Zelda Wii U Gameplay Demo
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Could be half the Zelda threads in the whole web ultimately becoming "SS is horrible" MIGHT have something to do with it.
He doesn't eternally reincarnate or something along those lines because he wants the Triforce, he's an immensely powerful being whose hatred for the surface world, especially Link and Zelda, lives on forever. There isn't a lot of depth or substance to him, in fact SS has a very simple story, but I think that suits an origin story just fine.
He lived in the underworld, hated the world above (he shows a clear contempt for mortals and tremendous hate for Hylia ) and wanted ultimate power to destroy it and rule over it. He pretty much acts as the origin of all evil, he isn't a God per se, but he's the father of all demons and the driving force behind the dark forces that constantly threaten the world, so being pure evil and driven by hate makes plenty of sense. It's not like there aren't tons of people who do evil stuff just for the sake of power/money.
He lived in the underworld, hated the world above (he shows a clear contempt for mortals and tremendous hate for Hylia ) and wanted ultimate power to destroy it and rule over it. He pretty much acts as the origin of all evil, he isn't a God per se, but he's the father of all demons and the driving force behind the dark forces that constantly threaten the world, so being pure evil and driven by hate makes plenty of sense. It's not like there aren't tons of people who do evil stuff just for the sake of power/money.
I defended the heck out of TP when it was going through the Zelda cycle phase.
Now that SS is out...it's my turn. P:
How mature of you and so useful in creating interesting discussion rather then going around in the same circles a million times. It's gotten almost as bad as Metriod discussions on the net.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
I suspect this is primarily a trait of "younger" (ie <~25) fans. From the teenage years until somewhere in the 20s, emotions run far higher than in adults and learning how to reframe your perspective so that you don't do that is a difficult process. Some people take a very long time to figure it out. Tie that into the common teenage trait of building your esteem on things that aren't you (when it's supposed to be self-esteem) and you get people being attached to and getting emotional over unexpected things.
I don't know why Zelda in particular brings this out, nor am I trying to claim that everyone goes through this.
Zeldablue is saying it tongue in cheek, you know.
I'm not sure if you're saying this is an interesting discussion or not. But if you don't like it, then I will can stop.
Edit: I don't want to drain other people's love for SS...which I am probably doing. I just want to discuss grivences and concerns with SS that I hope they reevaluate in Zelda U.
While Demise is extremely powerful, even more than Hylia herself, he is not a god, as it is implied that he can use the Triforce (SS explains that gods cannot use it)
Don't stop. Personally I found it interesting, whether agree or disagree.
I think it happens a lot with older people too, since older players tend to cling on to things they liked from the old games (or lots of times, the impression they got at the time, other than necessarily the games themselves) and demand that these notions they created be satisfied every single time. Since those Zelda games lots of people fell in love with are so good, the series conjures up strong emotions, which is why this is very apparent in the Zelda community,
All I know is I've heard every single defense and argument against SS about every third page in this thread alone. The closing arguments have been made on it about two years ago, but people just won't stop repeating themselves as if it will change a single mind at this point and not just make talking about anything Zelda a slog.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
This is my point, though. Doing "evil stuff just for the sake of power/money" isn't just for the sake of power or money. It's because the person is dissatisfied with their life/feels like they have no control over their life/wants the opportunities more money or power opens/thinks the world's current path is wrong/etc. Demise
hates mortals, but why do you hate mortals, dude? Are you jealous of the attention they get from the gods (implying you have esteem problems)? Are you a perfectionist that thinks their messy frailness makes them worthless? Do you think you have a right to the land they live on (maybe you used to live there)? And so on.
Some of that is kind of weakly implied, I just wish there was a layer of primer and not just paint. It can even be really thin primer and I'll take it in a "thinner" story series like Zelda.
I know, that's why I put "evil god" in quotes. His battle with
Hylia is framed something like the classic "good god" vs "evil god" dichotomy, and he's playing the role of the "evil god."
Right? Blew my mind right off. When I think of unique stories in Zelda LA and MM are probably the highest up there.
Majora's Mask is a huge change simply because
You're saving a rejected boy instead of a desirable girl.
I know Nintendo has more ideas under its sleeve. And I hope they don't fall on the same ole' same ole'.
Fair enough. Although I personally think it went to an interesting direction.
Oh yeah, in terms of narrative, I think those two are the best. They are not in your face, and let the actions and events speak for themselves.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
For some reason I figure most zelda fans atleast passionate like us are atleast 20 and up
2spooky4me
Member
I feel confident that it will, especially after Miyamoto asked Aonuma if he was sure it would release in 2015 and Aonuma responded that it would.
Besides, Nintendo doesn't really have any other big hitter scheduled for holiday 2015 so they're probably aware they need to push this title out in time.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
I don't trust Zelda release dates until we're a few months out from release. The series is in the "it happens when it happens" category for me.
Astral Dog
Member
Demise is barely a character and more of a reason for Ganondorf to appear again, thats it, i get why Nintendo did it, but i wish they did something more with him, thats the problem i have in all recent Zelda games. interesting settings but underdeveloped npcs and villains.
I mean, he IS the main villain of the series,the cause of everything, and then shows the last five minutes, battles Link, says random evil nonsense, and then dies, he is not treated any different than Malladus.
Also, i liked the backstory of Ganondorf that he was just a pitiful thief that managed to steal the power of the Gods to fuck the world up, unfortunately, im not sure whats the deal with Demise here, is he the one controlling Ganondorf? Ganondorf knows he is the reincarnation of Demise? He is just a puppet, or he just gets his powers, and "hate"? do the Gerudo worship Demise?
I dont think they will ever mention him again, but who knows, would be nice.
MisterGrey3000
Member
I mean what do you expect when the game gets trashed frequently on enthusiast forums (like GAF) and also receives a good amount of malice from major internet gaming personalities like Egoraptor?
Like it's obvious that a lot of people really liked the game (hell I'd argue that it has way, way more fans than detractors), it sold about as well as the other titles (it also sold more than others), and it garnered a huge amount of critical acclaim; however, negative comments tend to stand out in a sea of positivity and most of SS's fans are kind of done gushing over the game.
There is no balance in opinions now, it feels like an SS detractor is around every corner nowadays basically spewing the same hate-filled bs in every thread.
Like, there is nothing wrong with disliking SS but game enthusiast tend to be unnecessary vitriolic about their opinions and it just gets tiring after a while.
:/
Well, like I said, I think for an origin story,
evil encarnate doesn't need any particular reason for being evil, it's not uncommon for fairy tails to have a simple villain like this.
He's powerful, and power corrupts, the prospect of absolute power (the Triforce) corrupts him absolutely. The surface dwellers are bugs to him (this isn't implied, he outright says this), mortal beings without magic, while he is immortal and has immense power, he has the power to conquer the overworld, so he sets out to do so.
Many men throughout the ages felt that might is right, if the prospect of power, of ruling over another land is enough to drive men to war, why shouldn't it be enough for the Demon King who is a representation of pure evil? If some consider humans to be inherently good, why can't a demon be inherently evil?
You can certainly extrapolate or speculate about the things you mentioned, you can even draw a parallel to Ganondorf, Demise lived in the underworld and wanted the overworld for himself, maybe because the underworld sucks (there are theories he's from Lorule actually ahah) and the overworld is bountiful and rich, but in the end Demise is just supposed to be pure evil.
I get that he isn't a complex, deep character and I get you don't like it for that, but he's not supposed to be one either and I think that fits perfectly in the origin story for a series of fairy tails.
He's powerful, and power corrupts, the prospect of absolute power (the Triforce) corrupts him absolutely. The surface dwellers are bugs to him (this isn't implied, he outright says this), mortal beings without magic, while he is immortal and has immense power, he has the power to conquer the overworld, so he sets out to do so.
Many men throughout the ages felt that might is right, if the prospect of power, of ruling over another land is enough to drive men to war, why shouldn't it be enough for the Demon King who is a representation of pure evil? If some consider humans to be inherently good, why can't a demon be inherently evil?
You can certainly extrapolate or speculate about the things you mentioned, you can even draw a parallel to Ganondorf, Demise lived in the underworld and wanted the overworld for himself, maybe because the underworld sucks (there are theories he's from Lorule actually ahah) and the overworld is bountiful and rich, but in the end Demise is just supposed to be pure evil.
I get that he isn't a complex, deep character and I get you don't like it for that, but he's not supposed to be one either and I think that fits perfectly in the origin story for a series of fairy tails.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
It's "enough" for a fairy tale-esque series, but it's like the bare minimum of "enough." It would resonate better if there was a little more to it.
Ultimately, I guess my point is that characters that do things "because they are evil" are problematic because "evil" isn't a motivation, it's a classification. Give them evil reasons if you want, but do give them a reason.
I just think it's poor writing. ¯_(ツ
_/¯It's "enough" for a fairy tale-esque series, but it's like the bare minimum of "enough." It would resonate better if there was a little more to it.
Ultimately, I guess my point is that characters that do things "because they are evil" are problematic because "evil" isn't a motivation, it's a classification. Give them evil reasons if you want, but do give them a reason.
I just think it's poor writing. ¯_(ツ
We'll just have to agree to disagree
I wouldn't say hate filled. I personally love SS, but I understand that for many people that is not what they want in a Zelda game. And sometimes people talk about the game, and they say what is on their mind. I have my own reasons for liking it and other people disliking it doesn't take the joy out of me playing the game.
Alright, I get it. I'm done shitting all over SS. I basically went through the soundtrack, Zelda's role, the game design philosophies and the director...I think we're good.
I still really enjoy aspects of the game, and I don't want them to disappear. I enjoyed the game initially despite the flaws, but right now I see so many apparent hindrances that I can hardly look past it. Egoraptor shits over any Zelda that isn't LoZ/ALttP, so that one doesn't mean much.
Not sure if people consider discussions on gender or philosophy to be offensive, but I don't want to hit those buttons either. And I'm pretty sure I hit that button at least twice. I will say I do love the collision of Eastern and Western worldviews in the series, and I want them to keep going with that. Not that many other franchises in games cover that kind of feel effectively.
And...the further we get from the cookie cutter the better for me. I also never considered Zelda to be male focused...but I suppose it is.
Oh man...I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. xD
FloweryMarston
Member
Did any of you think about what the possible subtitle for the game will be?
brandonh83
Banned
There's literally no way of knowing or guessing at this point.
I guessed that it would have Bow, Arrow, Cloak, or Hood in the title. We'll see!
"For Wii U"
New Legend of Zelda.
FloweryMarston
Member
the legend of zelda : down to earth sword
MisterGrey3000
Member
There are definitely some people who express their dislike for the game in an articulate and reasonable way, but most of the time people just say the most vitriolic stuff about SS; like I said, it's ok to not like the game (it would be unreasonable to say or think otherwise) but it just gets tiring to see get blasted every 5 minutes.
Also, the hatedom that has built itself around the game definitely doesn't ruin the joy I feel when I play SS...but it does make it harder to participate in LoZ threads sometimes.
Edit: It's one of the reasons why I try to be as reasonable as possible when I discuss my problems with ALBW, MM, and WW; I don't want to contribute to the ridiculous amount of negativity that's already present within most of these discussions.
Oh no, my post wasn't specifically aimed at you or anybody in this thread really (though I can see how it might seem otherwise if you read the last few pages); if you feel like ragging on SS some more, I can't stop you. hehehe
All I can do is yell at you about how wrong you are!
There are definitely some people who express their dislike for the game in an articulate and reasonable way, but most of the time people just say the most vitriolic stuff about SS; like I said, it's ok to not like the game (it would be unreasonable to say or think otherwise) but it just gets tiring to see get blasted every 5 minutes.
Also, the hatedom that has built itself around the game definitely doesn't ruin the joy I feel when I play SS...but it does make it harder to participate in LoZ threads sometimes.
Oh no, my post wasn't specifically aimed at you or anybody in this thread really (though I can see how it might seem otherwise if you read the last few pages); if you feel like ragging on SS some more, I can't stop you. hehehe
Also, any discussion about Zelda's themes and contributions to real world social issues is a-okay with me.All I can do is yell at you about how wrong you are!
Ah okay, gotcha.
ReyVGM
Member
Legend of Zelda: Cloak & Arrow
2spooky4me
Member
I don't think I'm being unreasonable. Though I reread the past few pages and realized I became more hyperbolic with each response. If anything I just really, really, really want them to stay away from the low hanging fruit.
Here, instead of whining about SS I'll talk about what I love about previous narrative in Zelda.
Link's Awakening: Being trapped on a tropical island with a blank map felt good. You're away from the familiar Hyrule and there's a girl who looks like Zelda nursing you back to health after the ship wreck. You quickly realize the people don't believe anything exists outside of the island. Marin is the only one who thinks differently. The locals are funny, peaceful and cute and you start to get attached to this new world by coming across new faces and places to explore. You also come across the Nostalgia Ghost who needs to mourns his own death, look at his broken up home before letting it all go. Shortly after that you hit the plot twist and
find out Koholint is an illusion and if it ends, you end with it.
Ocarina of Time: OoT had two demographics in mind. The fans who played ALttP when they were ten and the new fans who will play OoT when they are ten.
OoT feels special because of it's new emphasis on perception. How the world is felt as a child and how it is felt as an adult. One of the most important elements is that literal growth that Link and the player share together. It's really great how they captured the feeling of returning home and seeing friends move around or disappear. Felt like OoT accurately reflected real life growth. "I think that how you feel when you have to say goodbye to a partner who you sometimes thought was "annoying" is an important element of the experience of Ocarina of Time." xP Once again the narrative is shown through the gameplay and environments...as well as Link visually.Majora's Mask: There's too much to say. But it takes the perceptual theme from OoT and cranks it to 11. You get to see different sides of characters by showing different faces. Prejudice, fear of the unknown, loss of identity/purpose and loneliness are repeated topics that are all revealed to be illusions of the mind. The game stresses on creating empathy and happiness through shared suffering. The game beats the concept of mortality into your head. Time is not eternal. Everyone suffers. Our time here is precious. So we should all cherish it together, and not go through it alone. It's a game about compassion in a world of perceived apathy.
The Wind Waker: Super special game for Aonuma. His son was just born. Aonuma's character is reflected by King Daphnas...and his "shadow": Ganondorf. The game has a huge emphasis on the older generation passing things onto the new. Link's Grandma, the older women of Windfall...and the ancient deities all echo the same fears and attachments. They all project their traditions and beliefs onto Link and Tetra. It is only after seeing Ganondorf latch so desperately onto the past that the King knows that it is wrong to dwell in regrets. He has to move on and let the new rise up. So he wishes nothing but freedom and hope for the children of Hyrule. This is the first Zelda that stops revolving around Link and really starts focusing on the side characters' plights. The game feels like a story about Aonuma realizing that he is a father now, and his life belongs to his son above all else. <3
Twilight Princess: Midna. Midna. Midna. This title has everything to do with the meeting of opposites. Even after countless wars, Hyrule still has racial tensions and old grudges. The Gorons won't talk to the humans, the humans are racist towards the Zoras, the Twili hate the light. The light fears the dark. The game focuses on Link mending the relationships between opposites and rebuilding bridges. This is reflected by his relationship with Midna. Midna starts off treating Link like a slave and giving zero respect towards Zelda. Eventually Link/Zelda and Midna form a more mutual bond and they see each other as equals. This is contrasted by how Ganondorf and Zant form their bond as God and servant. The game drives home the concept that nothing can be solved if we can't see other people as equals. Mutual respect and understanding wins over dominance and submission.
...I prefer LA, OoT and MM over TP and TWW. But all in all...I feel like the other console Zeldas had more...meat to them. There was more substance overall. Like there was a legit take away and it wasn't always peachy cream. I also feel as though Link's adventures were more universal. I could easily feel attached to him simply because I was exploring with him and because the subject matter wasn't completely tied to saving a girl. The whole point of myths and legends are to teach morals and pass down tradition. It just needs to have more of that again.
Welp. Hopefully that makes sense.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
The legend of Zelda: Sucks
Pro from Dover
Member
Legend of Zelda: Jump Button U
So my views on what makes a good Zelda game have kind of changed these last years.
I used to dislike Skyward Sword for all its shortcomings, but since my girlfriend has expressed an interest to see what Zelda is all about, I have been playing the newer console games with her. And I must say, Skyward Sword was the best experience for her as a viewer; the presentation, cutscenes, art style, world-building, dungeons etc. were just wonderful for her to witness by watching. I was very happy that she liked the game; whereas TP she (and I, surprisingly) felt is kind of boring in comparison. WW HD was all right, but couldn't quite capture the magic of SS for her.
So Skyward Sword did something right for me that the other ones could not: It managed to make my girlfriend fall in love with Zelda games (although she doesn't play video games herself). Since I place a great value in making others experience the same lovely feelings and joy that I get when doing something that's special to me, like experiencing a new Zelda game for the first time, I really hope that Zelda U draws on that aspect of Skyward Sword.
I used to dislike Skyward Sword for all its shortcomings, but since my girlfriend has expressed an interest to see what Zelda is all about, I have been playing the newer console games with her. And I must say, Skyward Sword was the best experience for her as a viewer; the presentation, cutscenes, art style, world-building, dungeons etc. were just wonderful for her to witness by watching. I was very happy that she liked the game; whereas TP she (and I, surprisingly) felt is kind of boring in comparison. WW HD was all right, but couldn't quite capture the magic of SS for her.
So Skyward Sword did something right for me that the other ones could not: It managed to make my girlfriend fall in love with Zelda games (although she doesn't play video games herself). Since I place a great value in making others experience the same lovely feelings and joy that I get when doing something that's special to me, like experiencing a new Zelda game for the first time, I really hope that Zelda U draws on that aspect of Skyward Sword.
DoctorFling
Member
You're absolutely correct, it's just difficult to play it as it was intended. 4 people, 4 Game Boys, 4 cables, etc.
It's awesome!
It's just there is not much that this Zelda Wii U can take from FSA. FSA needs a sequel on Wii U to further the spin-off series, but not much to add to the new main entrie.
A false belief. It's a good, 2D Zelda game you can play alone too, without a GBA.
Notor!ousG
Member
When they made the initial revealing at E3, I said they should just call it: The Legend of Zelda.
With all the talk about rethinking the conventions of the series, I believe no subtitle is needed. They should take a new start
With all the talk about rethinking the conventions of the series, I believe no subtitle is needed. They should take a new start
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