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[ethomaz]

Yes, it is, but like you seemed to ignore, they only have Sony and Microsoft in their portfolio.

I know, but you don't start ramping up for new semi-custom production on existing architecture. That would be ramping up existing production capability.

Like said, it's almost like people are hoping it's not Zen. This if anything confirms it will be Zen and the new iMac's will be using similar APU's to what the Scorpio will be.

They are ramping up due...

+ Xbox One S silicon (it is new)
+ PS4 Slim silicon (it is new too)
+ PS4 Pro silicon
+ Future Scorpio silicon
+ Future iMac silicon
+ Others possible silicon

They will fase out (already did)...

- Xbox One silicon
- PS4 silicon

It is pretty obvious they need to produce more semi-custom silicon in 2017 than 2016 lol

You are the only one putting thing in AMD's mouth that they didn't said.

 

[wapplew]

Yes, it is, but like you seemed to ignore, they only have Sony and Microsoft in their portfolio.

I know, but you don't start ramping up for new semi-custom production on existing architecture. That would be ramping up existing production capability.

Like said, it's almost like people are hoping it's not Zen. This if anything confirms it will be Zen and the new iMac's will be using similar APU's to what the Scorpio will be.

To your edit, they literally say in their 12 month road-map that they are ramping up production of new semi-custom APU's. 12 months from now is September 2017, which would like up perfectly for the mass production of the Scorpio. Stop ignoring what AMD are actually saying here.

Yes, Scorpio CPU will be Zen, it will make all games in 1080p running 60fps with ultra setting.
Everything else, the different will be similar to Xbox one vs PS4.

 

[leeh]

They are ramping up due...

+ Xbox One S silicon (it is new)
+ PS4 Slim silicon (it is new too)
+ PS4 Pro silicon
+ Future Scorpio silicon
+ Future iMac silicon
+ Others possible silicon

They will fade out (already did)...

- Xbox One silicon
- PS4 silicon

So they're investing a truck load of money into a production line for a new APU what they're already mass producing that satisfies supply chain demands?

Just check the roadmap slide on the article... they specifically refer to new semi-custom capabilities in reference to Vega and Zen.

They even refer to server specific CPU as Naples not Zen.

 

[ethomaz]

So they're investing a truck load of money into a production line for a new APU what they're already mass producing that satisfies supply chain demands?

Just check the roadmap slide on the article... they specifically refer to new semi-custom capabilities in reference to Vega and Zen.

They even refer to server specific CPU as Naples not Zen.

They slides are running for months from AMD... they didn't changed the plans.

You are confusing the "new" semi-custom opportunities (Scorpio and possible iMac) with "new" semi-custom architecture.

Each line of the slide is talking at different segments too.

 

[leeh]

They slides are running for months from AMD... they didn't changed the plans.

You are confusing the "new" semi-custom opportunities (Scorpio and possible iMac) with "new" semi-custom architecture.

Each line of the slide is talking at different segments too.

So, in your own words, please explain why the meterial provided is concrete evidence than Zen won't be included in the Scorpio.

All I'm seeing is a 12 month road-map to produce new semi-customs for Microsoft and Apple.

Apple aren't going to put Jaguars in their iMacs now are they.

 

[Chobel]

Who are they ramping up their new semi-custom business up for then?

If you go to AMD's semi-custom portfolio, it literally just has MS/Sony. They're not going to invest millions in ramping up semi-custom production for their new architecture with no orders first.

The whole Zen server thing is crap, the only reason that's being mentioned is due to the server specific variations theyre releasing with huge amounts of cores. Hell, they even demo'd the Zen against the consumer i series recently.

Semi custom doesn't mean necessarily mean it's Zen based, anything AMD does for consoles is semi-custom.

I think this is the original source https://www.computerbase.de/2016-08/amd-grafikkarten-marktanteil/, however it's the only one that talk about this and there's no direct quote.

 

[Trojan]

Scorpio will be too late.

Even if they price it correctly, they don't just have the gap that already exists between PS4 and XB1 to contend with, but also another year of PS4 and PS4P sales, by the time it releases Sony will be in the position to undercut the price to a significant enough degree that the Scorpio will be an unattractive proposition.

These are my thoughts too. I think MS made a mistake by leaving such a big gap for Sony to release the PS4 Pro. Waiting a year for many could be a deal breaker and Sony has the entire holiday 2016 to themselves with an upgraded-spec console.

 

[Milly Osworth]

Such a brilliant move by Microsoft to announce Scorpio so early.. keeps them in the conversation while they race to make a competitive product.

The amount of people waiting a year is probably small.

 

[ethomaz]

So, in your own words, please explain why the meterial provided is concrete evidence than Zen won't be included in the Scorpio.

All I'm seeing is a 12 month road-map to produce new semi-custom solutions for Microsoft and Apple.

Apple aren't going to put Jaguars in their iMacs now are they.

This is the same slide from other conference...

There is zero evidence AMD will use Zen on Scorpio and you are trying to create that... that is my point... why I need to proof something when you did the claim without any evidence???

 

[wapplew]

These are my thoughts too. I think MS made a mistake by leaving such a big gap for Sony to release the PS4 Pro. Waiting a year for many could be a deal breaker and Sony has the entire holiday 2016 to themselves with an upgraded-spec console.

It might be too late for the market, but it will be just in time for Xbox fans.
They want most powerful console, they want it to be more powerful, if Zen is not ready for 2017, I think they want Scorpio delay for it, timing is no issue or price.

 

[leeh]

Semi custom doesn't mean necessarily mean it's Zen based, anything AMD does for consoles is semi-custom.

I think this is the original source https://www.computerbase.de/2016-08/amd-grafikkarten-marktanteil/, however it's the only one that talk about this and there's no direct quote.

That article doesn't seem to provide anything different from the one on the last page?

I totally get that, but you've got Apple wanting to put AMD semi-customs in their new hardware. Let's apply a bit of logical presumption and say that Apple want to put the latest and greatest, and from the looks of Zen we may be seeing a mix-up in the CPU space.

They're going not going to be ramping up semi-custom business in the next 12 months for anything other than Zen with Vega.

 

[2blackcats]

So will the Scorpio not be able to use the UHD drive for games because all the discs need to run on the One as well?

Well obviously it will be using the drive, I mean UHD discs?

 

[PeterLegend]

I'm not waiting for Scorpio, especially since i can get their exclusives on PC

Im only interested in gears and maybe forza

 

[leeh]

This is the same slide from other conference...

There is zero evidence AMD will use Zen on Scorpio and you are trying to create that... that is my point... why I need to proof something when you did the claim without any evidence???

It literally says ramping up production for 'next-geneartion' semi-custom embedded solutions now and throughout next year, just in time for Scorpio. 2018 has been pulled from nowhere. There's no mention of that year at all.

 

[disco potato]

Edit: Guys, that article is clickbait bs. It's the only article of its kind and it doesn't contact any direct quote. What would AMD be producing in 2018 anyway? There's no new console outside of the Scorpio. If anything, this partially confirms it will be Zen considering they mention ramping up the new semi-custom business under their roadmap, which must refer to Zen.

The rumor is those custom SOCs are for Apple's products.

 

[ethomaz]

It literally says ramping up production for 'next-geneartion' semi-custom embedded solutions now and throughout next year, just in time for Scorpio. 2018 has been pulled from nowhere. There's no mention of that year at all.

I just give up... next year remember to say what happened to me please.

Edit - I saw your shadow edit saying they are ramping up production for ZEN for semi-custom lol. You have no ideia what you are talking about.

 

[leeh]

The rumor is those custom SOCs are for Apple's products.

We know they're for Apple, but that also means they definitely have the production capability to produce them in the next 12 months, which directly aligns with the Scorpio launch.

 

[Chobel]

That article doesn't seem to provide anything different from the one on the last page?

I totally get that, but you've got Apple wanting to put AMD semi-customs in their new hardware. Let's apply a bit of logical presumption and say that Apple want to put the latest and greatest, and from the looks of Zen we may be seeing a mix-up in the CPU space.

They're going not going to be ramping up semi-custom business in the next 12 months for anything other than Zen with Vega.

Source? First time hearing about this. But yeah if Apple is getting AMD designs it definitely won't anything other than Zen.

 

[Formosa]

Of course Sony will win! They have already won!!

 

[leeh]

I just give up... next year remember to say what happened to me please.

Edit - I saw your shadow edit saying they are ramping up production for ZEN for semi-custom lol. You have no ideia what you are talking about.

That's orite, just keep on making up stuff about it coming in 2018 which contradicts everything AMD have said. We have no direct quote of this at all.

All I've said is that AMD are ramping up semi-custom business which will be for Apple and MS which will most likely be Zen. Apple aren't going to want Jaguars in their new shiny iMacs are they. It's more common sense than anything.

Edit: Apple using AMD semi-custom is probably false, as the only quote is AMD graphics.

Source? First time hearing about this. But yeah if Apple is getting AMD designs it definitely won't anything other than Zen.

Actually on the article you sent me, at the bottom. Realised it just says AMD graphics though, which most likely doesn't mean semi-custom APU's. Then again, would Apple mix Intel CPU's with AMD GPUs when they could bulk order semi-customs for probably a lot cheaper?

Although, I'm just guessing there. AMD would never turn down powering iMacs even if they did use Intel CPUs.

 

[Trace]

So will the Scorpio not be able to use the UHD drive for games because all the discs need to run on the One as well?

Well obviously it will be using the drive, I mean UHD discs?

Yes. There will be no exclusive Scorpio games which means no UHD games since all Scorpio games need to run on Xbox One as well which doesn't have a UHD drive.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

If Scorpio uses Zen, I can see this system hitting $499. Easily. Also it be a beast of a machine. I mean we are talking both resolution boosts and framerate boosts.

 

[wapplew]

Set aside with Pro and Scorpio spec talk, since they are not make to replace the OG, it doesn't change the fact that PS4 still more powerful than Xbox one.
In 2017, we have Xbox one, PS4, PS4 Pro and Scorpio will be most powerful enhance console.
Will premium console be the best selling SKU like mobile phone or the mainstream SKU will sell more due to console is a price sensitive market?

 

[Chobel]

Done some googling, there was a rumor last year about Apple getting a semi-custom designs from AMD, however this deal was actually about Apple adopting AMD's new Polaris graphics chips in upcoming Macs

Edit: Apple using AMD semi-custom is probably false, as the only quote is AMD graphics.
Actually on the article you sent me, at the bottom. Realised it just says AMD graphics though, which most likely doesn't mean semi-custom APU's. Then again, would Apple mix Intel CPU's with AMD GPUs when they could bulk order semi-customs for probably a lot cheaper?

Although, I'm just guessing there. AMD would never turn down powering iMacs even if they did use Intel CPUs.

Dammit! beaten XD.

EDIT: Anyway, the question is how credible is ComputerBase.de? Because they're the only ones reporting this.

 

[thsantos]

I lol'd at the true 4k statements in this thread. We will wait and see, just like we did with the power of the cloud and the savior directx 12. People just don't get tired of being abused by smart PR.

 

[leeh]

Done some googling, there was a rumor last year about Apple getting a semi-custom designs from AMD, however this deal was actually about Apple adopting AMD's new Polaris graphics chips in upcoming Macs



Dammit! beaten XD.

EDIT: Anyway, the question is how credible is ComputerBase.de? Because they're the only ones reporting this.

Is there anyone at all who uses AMD semi-customs other than Sony and Microsoft? If Apple arent, then the only other company who they could be referring to would be MS.

Why would you need a action on a 12 month roadmap to create an APU which would be just be a more powerful PS4 pro when it's already in mass production?

To me, if there was a direct quote, I'd stand down about this. Although, I'd personally say given what we have now as evidence, id say it points more towards Zen. Thats maybe just my personal hope for it to be Zen, although I think we all agree that if it was Jaguar, itd just be awfully bottlenecked.

 

[Chobel]

Is there anyone at all who uses AMD semi-customs other than Sony and Microsoft? If Apple arent, then the only other company who they could be referring to would be MS.

Why would you need a action on a 12 month roadmap to create an APU which would be just be a more powerful PS4 pro when it's already in mass production?

To me, if there was a direct quote, I'd stand down about this. Although, I'd personally say given what we have now as evidence, id say it points more towards Zen. Thats maybe just my personal hope for it to be Zen, although I think we all agree that if it was Jaguar, itd just be awfully bottlenecked.

I dunno, it could be a lot of things that aren't necessarily Zen based: The new Vega GPU, some custom something (eSRAM, eDRAM or maybe some specialized chip), ARM processor...etc.

 

[leeh]

I dunno, it could be a lot of things that aren't necessarily Zen based: The new Vega GPU, some custom something (eSRAM, eDRAM or maybe some specialized chip), ARM processor...etc.

We can presume it's going to have the same DSP cores, and they'll be removing mostly all the microprocessors which helped with eSRAM and DDR3.

We could also probably assume that there will be no on-die RAM on this and it'll just use GDDR5X.

Other than it being Zen, I don't see why it'd have this release date. When Phil mentioned about a model which could of been done this year, that was probably a model which was very similar to the Pro, being jaguar based. This delay is probably simply there due to the wait of new architectures. You know AMD will of done their best to sell their new designs to MS as if they didn't, they wouldn't of had any semi-custom orders of their new architectures until PS5 and Scorpio two.

If the above was the case, that would of been a red flag to the shareholders that semi-custom wouldn't see any growth onto their upcoming tech until another 3 years or so.

 

[Chobel]

We can presume it's going to have the same DSP cores, and they'll be removing mostly all the microprocessors which helped with eSRAM and DDR3.

We could also probably assume that there will be no on-die RAM on this and it'll just use GDDR5X.

Other than it being Zen, I don't see why it'd have this release date. When Phil mentioned about a model which could of been done this year, that was probably a model which was very similar to the Pro, being jaguar based. This delay is probably simply there due to the wait of new architectures. You know AMD will of done their best to sell their new designs to MS as if they didn't, they wouldn't of had any semi-custom orders of their new architectures until PS5 and Scorpio two.

If the above was the case, that would of been a red flag to the shareholders that semi-custom wouldn't see any growth onto their upcoming tech until another 3 years or so.

Vega is a new architecture that wasn't going to be ready in 2016.

 

[leeh]

Vega is a new architecture that wasn't going to be ready in 2016.

Yeah, but why would MS delay their whole release by a year just to wait for a new GPU architecture which would be still bottlenecked by the same awful CPU? That just doesn't make sense, especially when Sony have took elements of Vega into their semi-custom APU, as Cerny said.

We know and they know how hurtful a delayed hardware release can be, why would they risk that just for a new GPU architecture without its accompanying CPU? AMD will of being selling Zen hard to MS.

EDIT: The only reason they announced it at E3 was reactionary, not the whole 'for the developer' mantra. If UWP is how they say it is, then developers could scale easily after an hardware announcement event at E3. The only reason they announced it was to mitigate the year delay of them getting new hardware out.

 

[kyser73]

Just looking at the AMD desktop roadmap, there are 3 zen-based APUs supposedly available this year:

Summit Ridge - up to 8 zen cores
Bristol Ridge - up to 4 zen cores
Basilisk - up to 2 zen cores.

The mobility roadmap starts at Bristol Ridge and adds

Styx - up to 2 K12 CPU cores

Bristol Ridge mobility version is rated for 35w with 4 cores, so if I were to guess I'd say that would be the base of the semi-custom APU MS are developing God Scorpio.

http://www.kitguru.net/components/a...summit-ridge-bristol-ridge-basilisk-and-styx/

 

[ThirdEye]

What if Scorpio is just a relatively cheap (I mean $600-800) Windows 10 PC?

 

[bitbydeath]

So will every game made for Xbox One need to be patched to work or will there just be an OG mode on Scorpio? Seems like a lot of work.

They did say 'optimally' so will likely still work without a patch just not as well as it could, but who knows, wouldn't be surprised if MS doesn't know anything yet for sure either.

EDIT: They're probably basing their results from seeing how games port to Windows.

 

[wapplew]

What if Scorpio is just a relatively cheap (I mean $600-800) Windows 10 PC?

I'll buy one and will sell those in my shop as THE gaming PC to get.

 

[scently]

Yeah, but why would MS delay their whole release by a year just to wait for a new GPU architecture which would be still bottlenecked by the same awful CPU? That just doesn't make sense, especially when Sony have took elements of Vega into their semi-custom APU, as Cerny said.

We know and they know how hurtful a delayed hardware release can be, why would they risk that just for a new GPU architecture without its accompanying CPU? AMD will of being selling Zen hard to MS.

EDIT: The only reason they announced it at E3 was reactionary, not the whole 'for the developer' mantra. If UWP is how they say it is, then developers could scale easily after an hardware announcement event at E3. The only reason they announced it was to mitigate the year delay of them getting new hardware out.

You are the first person here that is actually not just reacting to what is being posted without some research into it.

Ever since that small blip in the computerbase article (one without a quote) so many have jumped on it as evidence that Scorpio will not have Zen. The really funny thing about this is, assuming Scorpio doesn't come with Zen for whatever reason, it doesn't automatically mean that they must use jaguar again. Amd do have other processors that can be uaed apart from Jaguar or Zen. There Carrizo APUs are based on their Excavator cpu design, which is massively much better than Jaguar. Bristol Ridge which just launched is based on the same Excavator but is around 20% more powerful cpu-wise and both are on 28mm.

I don't see why MS and AMD can't design a custom APU on 16mm with 8 Excavator cores. This will be significantly more powerful than Jaguar and yet not Zen. Mind you I don't see why they won't use Zen cores in the system given the ramping up of production of Zen based apus next year, but at least this should stop this doom and gloom about Scorpio been based on nothing other than Jaguar or Zen.

 

[Ushay]

These are my thoughts too. I think MS made a mistake by leaving such a big gap for Sony to release the PS4 Pro. Waiting a year for many could be a deal breaker and Sony has the entire holiday 2016 to themselves with an upgraded-spec console.

Sony have released a console targeting a resolution it can't natively render without using a workaround, which also is yet to be seen in real world games.

4K adoption is also pretty low at the moment. I think the high end console market will behave differently to current dynamic between PS4 and XB1. Specs are important, but so is price which Sony has done well on.

 

[DangerMouse]

You are not getting a NATIVE 4k/60fps on high setting with the CPU choices I listed with a 6TF GPU. All the leveraging and optimization in the world won't make that happen. These are essentially PCs.

This.

Even with way better CPUs and GPUs PCs still have trouble with native 4K and even more so 4K/60.

 

[LukasTaves]

Power is nothing if you don't have the devs/exclusives to show off the power.

Tomb Raider could be 8K and still not touch games like The Order, Driveclub and Uncharted 4 due to it being held back by other platforms.

Tomb Raider more than touches those games even at 1080p.

"Again"? When has Xbox ever been 'on top' in the console space?

Last gen Wii may be ahead in sales, but 360 was simply the console to own.

 

[Trago]

This.

Even with way better CPUs and GPUs PCs still have trouble with native 4K and even more so 4K/60.

I think the expectation is to have native 4K games at usual console settings. With the on-paper specs, that's absolutely doable. Dunno where all this doubt is coming from.

Of course 4K/60 high settings ain't happening.

 

[NoHeDidn't]

Scorpios problem is its still a MS console sharing its big "console" exclusives with more powerful PC's.I mean ofcourse it's more powerful since it's a whole year away by that time PS4 Pro will have a YUUGE install base just by being a year early and cheapish.

 

[ethomaz]

Just looking at the AMD desktop roadmap, there are 3 zen-based APUs supposedly available this year:

Summit Ridge - up to 8 zen cores
Bristol Ridge - up to 4 zen cores
Basilisk - up to 2 zen cores.

The mobility roadmap starts at Bristol Ridge and adds

Styx - up to 2 K12 CPU cores

Bristol Ridge mobility version is rated for 35w with 4 cores, so if I were to guess I'd say that would be the base of the semi-custom APU MS are developing God Scorpio.

http://www.kitguru.net/components/a...summit-ridge-bristol-ridge-basilisk-and-styx/

These processors are supposed to launch in February 2017.

BTW the new AMD APU is called Raven Ridge that has no estimated release date yet... the semi-custom Zen will be based in Raven Ridge.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

You are the first person here that is actually not just reacting to what is being posted without some research into it.

Ever since that small blip in the computerbase article (one without a quote) so many have jumped on it as evidence that Scorpio will not have Zen. The really funny thing about this is, assuming Scorpio doesn't come with Zen for whatever reason, it doesn't automatically mean that they must use jaguar again. Amd do have other processors that can be uaed apart from Jaguar or Zen. There Carrizo APUs are based on their Excavator cpu design, which is massively much better than Jaguar. Bristol Ridge which just launched is based on the same Excavator but is around 20% more powerful cpu-wise and both are on 28mm.

I don't see why MS and AMD can't design a custom APU on 16mm with 8 Excavator cores. This will be significantly more powerful than Jaguar and yet not Zen. Mind you I don't see why they won't use Zen cores in the system given the ramping up of production of Zen based apus next year, but at least this should stop this doom and gloom about Scorpio been based on nothing other than Jaguar or Zen.

Why did Sony go with Excavator in the PS4P? That would surely help with system performance.

 

[avaya]

Why did Sony go with Excavator in the PS4P? That would surely help with system performance.

Excavator is power hungry and inefficient and would require more work to keep backward compatibility with Jaguar.

 

[Planet]

Because there are limitations on what you can integrate into an APU. Sony (as well as Microsoft) put lower end CPU cores in there to make room for much better graphics hardware.

In PC CPUs (which actually are almost always APUs nowadays) you still won't find a graphics solution on chip that can compete with the original PS4. The CPU part is much more important there, because many users don't ever utilize the integrated graphics because of the usual extra graphics card.

 

[2+2=5]

What people don't consider is that ps4p(aka ps4.5) is just an optional upgrade of the ps4, hence most of the devs will still aim to the ps4, while scorpio(that's xb2, not xb1.5) will be the "mandatory" next gen, after a transition period where developers will still aim to the xb1 they will make games aiming to xb2 specs.

Another thing, do people really think that ps4p will have a long life? With scorpio(again xb2, not xb1.5) next year sony can't afford to wait too much for the ps5.

 

[Schlorgan]

We need to build a wall against more PS4/Scoprio threads and get Sony/MS to pay for it.

.

 

[scently]

Why did Sony go with Excavator in the PS4P? That would surely help with system performance.

I think the design philosophy of both system are very different. Sony went for something that doesn't much deviate from what the PS4 is, both in terms of makeup and size of the apu. Moving to 16nm allowed the to include a gpu with probably the same area coverage as the gpu on ps4 in 28nm. There is a lot that they could have improved with a different makeup. The ram is still the same for example, so too the cpu, both running at higher speeds to provide more bandwidth and power respectively.

The Scorpio is going for a different makeup entirely. MS really messed up on XB1 and they see this as a way to provide a system with a much better hardware. In a way it feels more like a next gen system. From what we know, Phil said, even before the unveiling of Scorpio that if they move forward they will move in big numbers, so 6tflops, over 320gb/s bandwidth, the system will most likely come with 12gb RAM. In one of the interviews at e3, Phil said that they showed the Scorpio internals render on purpose, meaning that we can make some inference from what was shown. I get the feeling that the choice of cpu to use is not yet nailed down as at e3 so we only got the 8 core cpu mention.

So as you can see, from what we know, Scorpio is a more radical deviation from what is in the x1 compared to the ps4 and the Pro.