PetriP-TNT
Member
http://www.ebay.com/itm/D4-Dark-Dre...eam-gift-PC-/171931542106?hash=item2807eb225a
:shrug: pretty spooky I guess
The "Ebay and Amazon allow it so it must not be shady" is a nice "argument" though.
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Let's talk about how G2A is buying itself in
- Thread starter PetriP-TNT
- Start date
http://www.ebay.com/itm/D4-Dark-Dre...eam-gift-PC-/171931542106?hash=item2807eb225a
:shrug: pretty spooky I guess
The "Ebay and Amazon allow it so it must not be shady" is a nice "argument" though.
That's not my argument. My argument is that "they're not authorized yet they sell my game" isn't a strong enough indictment. Second hand resellers are a legal thing. You need to make a better case against G2A.
YianGaruga
Banned
nvm
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
There's shady stuff about G2A aplenty but that's not it.
If you release a product with components that can be sold, why wouldn't they be sold somewhere?
PetriP-TNT
Member
Where are the keys sourced from though? For example, there are 10 different SKU:s of D4 available on G2A. They aren't from Playism, so they must be from some other store right? Which of the stores allow reselling of their keys? There is no physical release of it either AFAIK so it cannot be a mom and pop operation either.
I don't know the answer to this, because I'm not that informed on digital distribution avenues.
However, GMG sold a large volume of Witcher 3 keys without CDPR's approval. Does this mean we shouldn't trust them either? G2A is officially partnered with Hi-Rez studios, (and a few other devs and Symantec) so they're clearly not complete scam artists, a legit studio backs them.
PetriP-TNT
Member
And they got a huuuuuuuge backlash doing that, which they deserved too. I really doubt that they will do it again, no matter how good the gray market money looks.
Doesn't that make your opinions on the whole matter kind of moot then?
Imp the Dimp
Member
Their commercials are absolutely cringe-worthy. Possibly the worst I've ever seen.
Didn't GMG buy keys at RRP and then eat the discount to give their loyal consumers the best price? I should wish EVERY company was so shady!
PetriP-TNT
Member
They bought the keys from an "unknown source", don't know if they ever clarified what it was. For all it's worth it might have been SirJackDaniels
I know enough to be able to argue this far, but I don't know where G2A get their keys, no. I don't think that necessarily precludes me from providing arguments though.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
Simple as this really. I recently bought Mad Max for £10 and Batman for £7 (in the hope it's fixed one day), this would have been £60 on Steam. Both keys were legit EU keys, no Steam Gifts or RU keys.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
One thing I must say though is interesting is people completely washing their hands off any responsibility just because it's a good price.
I'm not saying it is, since I've never heard of a proven case or anyone taking G2A to court, just in general but if a product is sold at "too good a price" the governments expect their citizens to question the legitimacy.
I do not know how G2A operates and I've personally never had much issues with it, when I've used it, but certain deals did make me ponder.
I'm not saying it is, since I've never heard of a proven case or anyone taking G2A to court, just in general but if a product is sold at "too good a price" the governments expect their citizens to question the legitimacy.
I do not know how G2A operates and I've personally never had much issues with it, when I've used it, but certain deals did make me ponder.
YianGaruga
Banned
People are conflating different issues here.
- Selling keys for games from Russia/China/Brazil because they're cheaper there:
Can't see much of a problem. Publishers have the ability to lock that down very easily, so if they don't that's their fault. Also this is/was happening directly on GAF as well in the BST thread, Dunder was the best thing that ever happened and people loved it. (RIP)
For a while a few years ago it was much, much cheaper to import all physical games from the UK to mainland EU. Is that shady as well?
- Selling keys that were stolen/bought with stolen CC/fraudulently obtained:
The first two are things that can not be avoided and happen with physical goods just as much. The only thing that needs to happen is that the marketplace sellers or sites that are caught doing it are banned or penalized somehow.
People pretending to be someone else and getting "review" keys for free can be fixed by publishers being less naive and setting up more sophisticated distribution systems.
G2A themselves aren't really the problem here, even though I never use them because I don't like it too much myself. In the end it's more of a moral issue than a legal one.
It's a free market, and unless you use the systems available to you (locking down keys to regions) you have no control over who sells your stuff.
- Selling keys for games from Russia/China/Brazil because they're cheaper there:
Can't see much of a problem. Publishers have the ability to lock that down very easily, so if they don't that's their fault. Also this is/was happening directly on GAF as well in the BST thread, Dunder was the best thing that ever happened and people loved it. (RIP)
For a while a few years ago it was much, much cheaper to import all physical games from the UK to mainland EU. Is that shady as well?
- Selling keys that were stolen/bought with stolen CC/fraudulently obtained:
The first two are things that can not be avoided and happen with physical goods just as much. The only thing that needs to happen is that the marketplace sellers or sites that are caught doing it are banned or penalized somehow.
People pretending to be someone else and getting "review" keys for free can be fixed by publishers being less naive and setting up more sophisticated distribution systems.
G2A themselves aren't really the problem here, even though I never use them because I don't like it too much myself. In the end it's more of a moral issue than a legal one.
It's a free market, and unless you use the systems available to you (locking down keys to regions) you have no control over who sells your stuff.
j0hnny_385
Member
Wait, WHAT? The government? Are you for real?
That's a thing in Germany at least. In lawsuits it's expected from people to have a brain when it comes to obviously illegal things like far too cheap products. "I didn't know" gets you only so far.Wait, WHAT? The government? Are you for real?
Seems like they do this: https://www.vg247.com/2015/01/28/g2a-responds-to-deactivated-far-cry-4-keys-debacle/
Mad Season
Banned
If they were illegal they would have been shut down already
Lol.
Wait, WHAT? The government? Are you for real?
Yep, he's right. It's legally called displaying 'willful blindness'. It's usually applied to buying stolen goods such as electronics or stereo systems.
As a result, if a person buys the latest iPhone from a guy on the street for 75% off and it turns out to be stolen, he can potentially be charged for buying stolen goods, as he should have known such a deal was too good to be true.
And people call me naive for believing im Bernie Sanders.
SirJackDaniels
Member
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Wait, WHAT? The government? Are you for real?
Do you mean the use of the word government or the content?
If it's the latter then yes if you buy something completely beneath the value and it turns out it was stolen, in many countries you might end up liable, blissful ignorance is no defense.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Applies to Finland too, most likely in most of the EU countries. Plausible deniability/willfull blindness doesn't hold in court.
Pellegri Testament
Member
Lmao things don't work like that in the real world, just look at many government practices to see how much shady shit gets done under the table. Money speaks louder than the law if you know the right people to get behind. Whether G2A does anything illegal or not doesn't matter at this point, they have enough noteworthy mouthpieces that speak highly of them that any real authority doesn't feel the need to look into their dealings.
j0hnny_385
Member
In this thread, I was referring to the ability to purchase various games off of key reseller sites for "lower than standard RRP" (50/60EUR Steam here in the EU).
I wasn't talking about stolen keys, fraduently obtained, etc.
We (the consumer), don't know how those keys were obtained wholesale and "too good to be true" doesn't hold up to legal scrutiny (if I buy a 60EUR game for 30EUR, who says it's illegal? How about 25? 10?)
Also, you all mention lawsutis. What lawsuits? Against who? Eg. EA suing me personally for buying DA:I for 25 EUR day one? Wonder how that would work...
But on that point, Mad Max sold for 10GBP day one, seems to be working perfectly. What's up with that? I don't see WB going on a worldwide crackdown over this?
I am certain that few (if any) keys on all these sites are plain stolen or illegal in a true sense of the word. They're just obtainted wholesale via various loopholes in contracts or via willful participation from a publisher (or part of a publisher: local distribution office, for example), as JackDaniels explained.
Again, going to my original post, I am certainly not going to be part of a publisher defense force.
It's a free market in which I'm finding products I want while paying for them in a perfectly legal manner.
If this practice is so widespread and damaging, its up to them, and them alone to fix it in the market by whatever legal means necessary.
Hamster Plugin
Member
Would you consider 35 for a game "too cheap" if it is 60 on Steam?
35 is the current cheapest available price in Finland for the 100% legal physical copy of MGS5 PC version, on Anttila
Well. Bought until dawn and mgsV on ps4 full price.
I kinda wanted mad max. Single player only game...
Advanced uncrackable DRM.
15 bucks after 4 days from release.
I of course bought it.
I also needed Metal gear Rising that somehow was 30 bucks on steam and 6 bucks on g2a.
I hadnt heard anything about them being thieves.
I wonder how that works ? How can they generate unlimited keys ?
That being said, Mad Max sale (85% off within release week) did seem too good to be true and was "limited".
I kinda wanted mad max. Single player only game...
Advanced uncrackable DRM.
15 bucks after 4 days from release.
I of course bought it.
I also needed Metal gear Rising that somehow was 30 bucks on steam and 6 bucks on g2a.
I hadnt heard anything about them being thieves.
I wonder how that works ? How can they generate unlimited keys ?
That being said, Mad Max sale (85% off within release week) did seem too good to be true and was "limited".
Why does it matter if they are legitimate (as in, not bought with stolen credit cards) keys?
They don't generate any keys. They buy keys from other people, who may or may not have bought them with stolen credit cards.
Some of the keys are legit, but they're not an authorized reseller so it's just not worth it to me.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I never made any mention in that regard, I didn't set a threshold nor did I imply publishers would sue the end customer instead of the middlemen.
Whether it holds up to legal scrutiny or not is in the hands of a judge if it ever comes to it, which it hopefully won't.
What I was saying was that ppl should question the prices if they are too good since otherwise they might even be held liable. If you do that already and if you can find a convincing argument for why they are so low then that's fine.
PetriP-TNT
Member
But who is this mysterious legimate provider? Gabbo! Gabbo! GABBO!
Of course it matters. You cant state that an unknown party is legimate (same applies for other way around, THUS THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE DUBIOUS NATURE)
It matters because somehow he believes he's entitled to business partners disclosure because "reasons" and "ethics"
But it doesn't apply to Ebay or Amazon because, again, reasons?
He makes no sense in his weird crusade
Did you read any of SirJackDaniel's posts? He explains how it works pretty well. They acquire them from the publishers directly.
ShadowOfTheIco
Banned
These companies exist because the PC second hand legitimate market doesn't exist.
They're filling a void.
The publishers don't want a PC second hand market. Therein lies a problem.
They're filling a void.
The publishers don't want a PC second hand market. Therein lies a problem.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Did you read the post that started that particular discussion. A guy that for an significantly small publisher stated that they don't associate with G2A, which most likely means they don't supply keys to Joe down the street either. I asked where THOSE keys are coming from.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Funny things is G2A prices aren't that reliable as a sign post of what may or may not be 'too cheap'. It sounds like an arbitrary line has been drawn yet the consumer has no indication of where that line is. G2A are a fairly large site and are reasonably well known. Shifting the blame back to the consumer themselves is blissful ignorance if anything. It's worth remembering that laws like these are in place to protect governments and companies from the consumer and not the other way round.
If we go with a stupid example like trying to buy an Iphone off a guy in an alley at the price of a loaf of bread then, well yeah that's obvious. However fully established websites with sponsorship deals going are an entirely different line and it shouldn't be on the consumer to work out which company has been allowed to grow to this size only to find out they've been conned and are now to blame due to 'blissful ignorance'.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Have you actually used G2A? Because I have for a decent amount of titles and the site rings all sorts of bells when making a purchase.
Their weekly deals are done professionally and I would buy it completely if someone thought them an authorized seller because he or she only ever accessed the site through that. Heck that's how I first started using it.
But everywhere else the site not only reminds one that keys could be illegitimate through their mandatorily ticked G2A shield but also that they blatantly put the power of tax evasion right into the hands of consumers.
I always pursue the cheapest possible price for games myself and used my fair share of tricks to get access to regional pricing, I think that's just fair usage when companies do the same.
I'm looking very much forward to this
Just took a quick look, the GoG keys are from GoG I'd imagine. They just buy the keys from a cheaper region since GoG does regional pricing (even though they introduced it, scrapped it after bad PR, then slowly brought it back).
The steam keys look like retail keys, probably from humble bundle's store if I had to guess. Either way, they were paid for and are now being resold.
funkystudent
Member
Sketchy as hell. And the ads are annoying and hilarious in their weird "CHEAP GAMES BRO!" way.
Its a completely different situation but it reminds me of the late 90's / early 00's import and console hack scene in a way. Super fringe and just legally questionable enough to get by for now but as soon as a big company sends in a lawyer they are screwed.
Its a completely different situation but it reminds me of the late 90's / early 00's import and console hack scene in a way. Super fringe and just legally questionable enough to get by for now but as soon as a big company sends in a lawyer they are screwed.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Honestly outside of debating whether or not to take the plunge on a cheap featured deal once or twice I've never actually used the site so I guess I never ran into those warnings about keys possibly being illegitimate. By the sounds of it I guess I was likely looking at the weekly deals. I've generally dodged these sorts of sites, even been careful with GMG. I've only ever bought one Steam code from outside sources but I'm extremely cautious. Too many games on there to risk my account being locked.
There's always going to be the less diligent customer though who ends up landing in a bad situation from it. I guess it's just kind of hard finding the line of where responsibility of the customer becomes priority of the seller. If they have clear warnings about dodgy codes then yeah, that's hard to get around as long as it's very clearly displayed before purchase.
At this point you're just asking for avatar quotes
Why do I get a feeling OP got screwed over by some seller in G2A for a just released game of some sort and now he's trying to rally the troops in here?
Used G2A before, no issues, I'm too busy with shit that matters to bother checking where I'm standing on the grey line for video game purchases.
Paul from Mode 7 Games (Frozen Synapse) just posted this pretty in depth look at some of the legal aspects of key reselling.
https://medium.com/@mode7games/the-key-masters-reselling-and-the-games-industry-6bb01a6a4963
https://medium.com/@mode7games/the-key-masters-reselling-and-the-games-industry-6bb01a6a4963
What's too good though Mad Max is currently available on GMG for $24... Is that too good?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm okay with g2a existing. I probably won't use the site myself, but I am okay with a third party market for game codes.
I would suggest you read greenman gaming's response where they explain that they bought the title from other authorized retailers and absorbed the cost of the discount to maintain customer loyalty.
It wasn't deserved though, CDPR was at fault there and should have got all the blame.
It's bullshit CDPR didn't get more backlash because I know it has stopped me from buying anything from them until it's super cheap and I wish more people would do the same against CDPR.
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