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Lionhead Studios and Press Play closed. Fable legends cancelled.

Steejee

Member
In light of the W10/Xbox One news recently, I would interpret this as the following: Microsoft does not see themselves as a hardware platform owner anymore. As a result, their interest in developing games is no longer about establishing a diverse portfolio (even at a loss), but instead about just publishing games only if they make reliable money with no risk. Hence why they're willing to sign with outside partners, and hence why they're still making Halo, Forza, Minecraft, and Gears. If you were going to transition away from the hardware model but still wanted to publish the odd game and didn't want to shut down the division at all, this is exactly what you'd do. Besides these franchises, almost all of Microsoft's first-party partners are now working on Hololens, and it's not clear that Hololens is going to be a consumer focused gaming product during the Xbox One's lifespan. The exceptions: the Project Spark team (W10/XO--whose game got shut down) and Decisive Games (presumably working on AoE, for W10/XO), and Rare.

There's been piles of talk about the odds of Nintendo going third party over the last few years, but I've always put the odds of MS going third party as much higher and your analysis fits pretty well what I've been thinking. MS has been going at this console business for a long while now (15 years) and can't seem to make it work and have no need for it to succeed, while Nintendo has everything to lose from relinquishing control of their own hardware.

I'm pretty sure MS is still pretty far in the red with the XBox line, once you account for marketing and R&D, and with the One not doing as well as they would and the rumblings from shareholders about doggedly pursing it, I could definitely see them eyeballing potential ways out.

I still remember the PCXL issue that was discussing rumors for after 2000 and their reaction to the XBox rumors were that 'MS would have to be crazy to try to get into an already crowded market.' Maybe PCXL knew way before MS did...

All speculation right now of course, but even for the seemingly endless pockets MS has they don't want to subsidize something that they don't think can turn a profit at some point.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Microsoft is the absolute master of failing at things even when it'd be easier to succeed. The good news is, pretty soon they'll have no more internal studios to shut down besides the ones reliably pumping out their biggest franchises every two years. As someone who bought a lot of Microsoft Game Studios titles and really loved so much of what they accomplished on 360, it sucks that shifting corporate priorities and an unwillingness to fully commit to gaming sabotaged so much of what they could have accomplished.

Good post Stump.
 

Alienous

Member
It makes sense that Microsoft would opt out of the console hardware market. Minecraft was a marked change in how they look at video games, clearly.

As Stump mentioned they seem to want to sell software that will sell well, rather than have a diverse array of content to make a console more palatable. Why even struggle to get a box into someone's home when you have a potential software platform on the devices used by almost everyone?

I could see the Xbox division of Microsoft being dissolved. I'm sure they'll operate in a reduced capacity over the next few years.
 
Microsoft Studios is now publishing only the biggest hits
Let's just recap Microsoft's generation in review:
- Start Lift London
- Downsize the XBLA/Microsoft Studios team because MS doesn't want to be in the business of publishing so many indie games
- Close Microsoft Victoria
- Cancel Black Tusk's original game and make them the Gears studio
- Close Xbox Entertainment Studios
- Buy Mojang
- Merge Lift London with other UK-based small teams
- Promote Kudo to oversee Lift London and other UK based teams
- Kudo transfered out of Microsoft Games
- Spin off Twisted Pixel Games
- Close Press Play
- Close Lionhead

In light of the W10/Xbox One news recently, I would interpret this as the following: Microsoft does not see themselves as a hardware platform owner anymore. As a result, their interest in developing games is no longer about establishing a diverse portfolio (even at a loss), but instead about just publishing games only if they make reliable money with no risk. Hence why they're willing to sign with outside partners, and hence why they're still making Halo, Forza, Minecraft, and Gears. If you were going to transition away from the hardware model but still wanted to publish the odd game and didn't want to shut down the division at all, this is exactly what you'd do. Besides these franchises, almost all of Microsoft's first-party partners are now working on Hololens, and it's not clear that Hololens is going to be a consumer focused gaming product during the Xbox One's lifespan. The exceptions: the Project Spark team (W10/XO--whose game got shut down) and Decisive Games (presumably working on AoE, for W10/XO), and Rare.

As it relates to Press Play, Microsoft's purchase never really made any sense to begin with, just as it didn't with Twisted Pixel, but my thoughts at the time were that it was driven by wanting to have a robust portfolio of indie exclusives as other indie titles went increasingly multiplatform. Neither company had mega hits, although both had some success. In addition, neither company was all that large, so shutting them down isn't just a vote of non-confidence, it's a vote that they aren't even interested in owning those types of companies.

Microsoft did a pretty crap job of making use of Lionhead
Finally, separate from the musing about Microsoft Studios, I think Lionhead Studios has been treated extremely poorly by Microsoft. Microsoft did not secure Black & White from EA or The Movies from Activision when they bought Lionhead. The lack of care about the studio's non-Fable history was palpable. Also let it be noted that every non-Fable game they worked on under Microsoft got cancelled. Which would be OK if they cared about Fable, but here's what they did with Fable:
- Fable 1 gets a late PC port
- Fable 2 never gets a PC port
- Fable 3 gets a GFWL PC port that gets discontinued years ago when they run out of keys, MS never bothers to remove GFWL
- Fable Heroes never gets a PC port
- Fable The Journey never gets a PC port
- Fable Anniversary gets a late PC port with a rocky launch
- Fable Legends cancelled during beta

Microsoft sucks at F2P
Let's talk about free to play, though. Free to play is a pretty exciting business model for publishers and fans alike, if executed properly. MS has really sent some big signals about F2P and their interest in it. How have they done?

- In Summer 2011, Microsoft publishes Age of Empires Online for PC (GFWL). The game was developed by Robot Entertainment, also known as the company that formed when Microsoft closed Ensemble Studios (the previous developers of Age of Empires). Microsoft had Ensemble develop a console exclusive RTS which ended up being a huge hit but then closed them because I guess they didn't want a PC studio? Who knows? The game started as basically a free demo that required you to pay to buy into most of the content. It also started as a busywork grind. A year later, Microsoft, having basically bungled the game's first year, released the game on Steam (still required GFWL) and lowered the prices. This also did not work. Then a few months later they made the game actually F2P--you could unlock all the content by grinding, or pay to accelerate. A little under 2 years after release, they discontinued development on the game. 8 months later they shut down the servers. As the game is online only, it can no longer be played.
- In 2011, Microsoft publishes Crimson Alliance for XBLA as free to play. Except it turns out they don't understand free to play and the game costs money to play. When they are asked about this, they explain that the demo is free to play (as it was for every other XBLA game released on Xbox 360). ??? Great game, no followup, developer is now a support studio for Halo, no chance of game being ported to a modern platform.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Windows 8. A variety of the launch games for the platform are "Free to Play", including a great little point and click / hidden object hybrid called Adera. The free to play model for Adera is that you can play the first quarter for free and then pay for the rest. So, again, a demo. Other games are actually free to play, but they're versions of games that used to be entirely free. One game is an endless runner called Gunstringer Dead Man Running. Gunstringer is F2P with currency in a similar model to, say, Jetpack Joyride. This game is shut down in 2014.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Microsoft Flight, a free to play revival of Flight Simulator. Again, the free content is basically a demo, so it's clear they don't understand Free to Play. The game is locked behind GFWL and is PC exclusive. Five months later, they ceased development on the game, leaving it with nowhere near enough content. In 2013, they removed the ability to purchase any of the content or download the game. In 2014, they shut the servers. Note that Microsoft previously killed the team that made Flight Simulator and then created a new team for this project.
- In October 2012, Microsoft launches the first traditionally F2P game on XBLA: Happy Wars, a Japanese-developed tug of war team based hack and slash multiplayer game. This game went pretty well, although they realized that the business model with F2P is attracting as many people as possible so that you can monetize whales, which was at odds with the whole "you need to pay $50 a year to be able to download this game". It's fine, because the developer went ahead and ported the game to Steam without Microsoft. On Steam it has a few million players.
- In May 2013, Microsoft releases Crash Course 2, a sequel to the free Doritos advertorial game Crash Course. It is pretty well received and very popular, millions on the leaderboards near release. Around the same time they release Crash Course Go, a version of the game for Windows 8. Both games are cancelled less than a year after release and the servers shut down effective immediately.
- In July 2013, Microsoft announces Lift London is working on 4 F2P games. None ever release or are announced.
- In September 2013, Microsoft publishes Ascend: New Gods, by Signal Studios, the popular developers of the Toy Soldiers franchise. This is an F2P dungeon crawl 3rd person ARPG, kinda like Kingdoms of Amalur or Elder Scrolls or a more mechanically intense Fable. The game is actually super popular, lots of people play it. Less than a year after release, Microsoft cancels the game, removes it from sale, and gives everyone 3 day's notice about a server shutdown. Also they do not tell the developer, Signal Studios, who is completely blindsided. Signal ports the game to Steam, where it did OK for a while. It's still available. Signal hasn't worked with Microsoft since.
- A little bit before shutting down Ascend: New Gods, Microsoft shows the first footage of Fable Legends. At the time, the game is not specified as F2P, but it's later clarified to be F2P and Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play. Microsoft teases 5-10 years of support--that this is the Fable series as we know it going forward. Fable Legends is cancelled during open beta.
- In summer 2014, Microsoft betas Project Spark, a game creation game that's F2P with Microtransactions. The game discontinues development and goes free a year after release, the F2P model having not worked at all.
- In June 2015, Microsoft confirms that they are publishing Gigantic, an Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play F2P MOBA by indie developer Motiga. The game is in closed beta and moving to open beta this summer. Well, maybe, because a month ago the developer announced significant layoffs.

These are not all of Microsoft's F2P failures--I could also talk about the semi-F2P business model of Game Room, which failed, Microsoft's bad attempts to make their old free Windows parlour games (Minesweeper, Mahjong, Solitaire) into money-making opportunities but instead alienating their audience, Age of Empires: Castle Siege (a bad Clash of Clans clone).

I could also talk about the failure of their cloud gaming initiative by exploring how just about every Microsoft server-based game has been shut down. I could also talk about how Galactic Reign, released by Microsoft as a bold experiment in cloud-based rendering of cutscenes -- pay attention if you like Quantum Break -- shut down 6 months after release, leaving players unable to play the game. I could also talk about how all of Microsoft's major initiatives with the Xbox One: Smartglass, Cloud-based Rendering or Computing Features, and Dedicated Servers are all defunct.


Microsoft is the absolute master of failing at things even when it'd be easier to succeed. The good news is, pretty soon they'll have no more internal studios to shut down besides the ones reliably pumping out their biggest franchises every two years. As someone who bought a lot of Microsoft Game Studios titles and really loved so much of what they accomplished on 360, it sucks that shifting corporate priorities and an unwillingness to fully commit to gaming sabotaged so much of what they could have accomplished.


Thats one hell of a post and extremely accurate. There is mounting evidence MS does not view themselves as a traditional platform holder. And also that MS has no idea how to manage 1st party studios
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Fable Legends could've been a decent game, now I feel guilty that I didn't have a ton of time to log in and play the beta.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Honestly bizarre that Fable Legends never made it out. Its like they were sitting on that egg for far too long.

Also it looks like MS is getting out of the console war more and more. They won't be missed since the short termism of killing studios off en masse is the legacy I think of most related to them. What a shit show.
 

Rymuth

Member
Microsoft Studios is now publishing only the biggest hits
Let's just recap Microsoft's generation in review:
- Start Lift London
- Downsize the XBLA/Microsoft Studios team because MS doesn't want to be in the business of publishing so many indie games
- Close Microsoft Victoria
- Cancel Black Tusk's original game and make them the Gears studio
- Close Xbox Entertainment Studios
- Buy Mojang
- Merge Lift London with other UK-based small teams
- Promote Kudo to oversee Lift London and other UK based teams
- Kudo transfered out of Microsoft Games
- Spin off Twisted Pixel Games
- Close Press Play
- Close Lionhead
It sucks how people forget about the bolded part. You also forgot to mention the cancellation of Phantom Dust.

Based Phil Spencer.
 

Drek

Member
Microsoft Studios is now publishing only the biggest hits

Microsoft is the absolute master of failing at things even when it'd be easier to succeed. The good news is, pretty soon they'll have no more internal studios to shut down besides the ones reliably pumping out their biggest franchises every two years. As someone who bought a lot of Microsoft Game Studios titles and really loved so much of what they accomplished on 360, it sucks that shifting corporate priorities and an unwillingness to fully commit to gaming sabotaged so much of what they could have accomplished.

I've been saying this exact thing for years now. When they cleaned house mid-360 generation it was ominous to me. When Bungie was allowed to buy their freedom as opposed to making something other than Halo the writing was on the wall.

As for Lionhead, a couple years ago Molyneux and a large number of the core founders for Lionhead and Big Blue Box (basically the majority of upper level former Bullfrog staffers) left over a period of a few months to 1. found new studios and 2. due to MS layoffs. That was when the writing was on the wall for this. Fable Legends exists because a F2P hack n' slash can be made with a skeleton crew and abandoned relatively easily, exactly like what MS did.

This is the reality for MS and has been for a while. Their only real commitment is to franchises they can turn around ~10M sales in 5 years. That might be a biennial Forza Motorsport + Horizon blend at 2.5M for the first and 1.5M for the second. That might be two Halo games in a 5 year window. Whatever it is if it doesn't offer repeatable high end sales MS just isn't interested.

The sad part was that if MS had even a shred of vision they would have pivoted towards PC a while ago, seen the value in a non-draconian (or at least one that appears to be) digital distro store for the platform, and would have constructed a worthwhile marketplace competitor for Steam utilizing much of the best services from Xbox Live. They could have really had something. Instead they've been entirely focused on how to build walls and install policies of exclusion and now they're feeling the pain from those choices.

Even worse, some of their old 500,000 to 1,000,000 selling franchises probably offer a better RoI than all the money they've sunk into Kinect, NFL licensing deals, and various pointless R&D projects that will never see the light of day.

Such is life, and this is why the Xbox One is their last console. Gaming is only a gateway to them, not a way of life, and that gateway has been firmly shut upon them multiple times now.
 
Microsoft Studios is now publishing only the biggest hits
Let's just recap Microsoft's generation in review:
- Start Lift London
- Downsize the XBLA/Microsoft Studios team because MS doesn't want to be in the business of publishing so many indie games
- Close Microsoft Victoria
- Cancel Black Tusk's original game and make them the Gears studio
- Close Xbox Entertainment Studios
- Buy Mojang
- Merge Lift London with other UK-based small teams
- Promote Kudo to oversee Lift London and other UK based teams
- Kudo transfered out of Microsoft Games
- Spin off Twisted Pixel Games
- Close Press Play
- Close Lionhead

In light of the W10/Xbox One news recently, I would interpret this as the following: Microsoft does not see themselves as a hardware platform owner anymore. As a result, their interest in developing games is no longer about establishing a diverse portfolio (even at a loss), but instead about just publishing games only if they make reliable money with no risk. Hence why they're willing to sign with outside partners, and hence why they're still making Halo, Forza, Minecraft, and Gears. If you were going to transition away from the hardware model but still wanted to publish the odd game and didn't want to shut down the division at all, this is exactly what you'd do. Besides these franchises, almost all of Microsoft's first-party partners are now working on Hololens, and it's not clear that Hololens is going to be a consumer focused gaming product during the Xbox One's lifespan. The exceptions: the Project Spark team (W10/XO--whose game got shut down) and Decisive Games (presumably working on AoE, for W10/XO), and Rare.

As it relates to Press Play, Microsoft's purchase never really made any sense to begin with, just as it didn't with Twisted Pixel, but my thoughts at the time were that it was driven by wanting to have a robust portfolio of indie exclusives as other indie titles went increasingly multiplatform. Neither company had mega hits, although both had some success. In addition, neither company was all that large, so shutting them down isn't just a vote of non-confidence, it's a vote that they aren't even interested in owning those types of companies.

Microsoft did a pretty crap job of making use of Lionhead
Finally, separate from the musing about Microsoft Studios, I think Lionhead Studios has been treated extremely poorly by Microsoft. Microsoft did not secure Black & White from EA or The Movies from Activision when they bought Lionhead. The lack of care about the studio's non-Fable history was palpable. Also let it be noted that every non-Fable game they worked on under Microsoft got cancelled. Which would be OK if they cared about Fable, but here's what they did with Fable:
- Fable 1 gets a late PC port
- Fable 2 never gets a PC port
- Fable 3 gets a GFWL PC port that gets discontinued years ago when they run out of keys, MS never bothers to remove GFWL
- Fable Heroes never gets a PC port
- Fable The Journey never gets a PC port
- Fable Anniversary gets a late PC port with a rocky launch
- Fable Legends cancelled during beta

Microsoft sucks at F2P
Let's talk about free to play, though. Free to play is a pretty exciting business model for publishers and fans alike, if executed properly. MS has really sent some big signals about F2P and their interest in it. How have they done?

- In Summer 2011, Microsoft publishes Age of Empires Online for PC (GFWL). The game was developed by Robot Entertainment, also known as the company that formed when Microsoft closed Ensemble Studios (the previous developers of Age of Empires). Microsoft had Ensemble develop a console exclusive RTS which ended up being a huge hit but then closed them because I guess they didn't want a PC studio? Who knows? The game started as basically a free demo that required you to pay to buy into most of the content. It also started as a busywork grind. A year later, Microsoft, having basically bungled the game's first year, released the game on Steam (still required GFWL) and lowered the prices. This also did not work. Then a few months later they made the game actually F2P--you could unlock all the content by grinding, or pay to accelerate. A little under 2 years after release, they discontinued development on the game. 8 months later they shut down the servers. As the game is online only, it can no longer be played.
- In 2011, Microsoft publishes Crimson Alliance for XBLA as free to play. Except it turns out they don't understand free to play and the game costs money to play. When they are asked about this, they explain that the demo is free to play (as it was for every other XBLA game released on Xbox 360). ??? Great game, no followup, developer is now a support studio for Halo, no chance of game being ported to a modern platform.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Windows 8. A variety of the launch games for the platform are "Free to Play", including a great little point and click / hidden object hybrid called Adera. The free to play model for Adera is that you can play the first quarter for free and then pay for the rest. So, again, a demo. Other games are actually free to play, but they're versions of games that used to be entirely free. One game is an endless runner called Gunstringer Dead Man Running. Gunstringer is F2P with currency in a similar model to, say, Jetpack Joyride. This game is shut down in 2014.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Microsoft Flight, a free to play revival of Flight Simulator. Again, the free content is basically a demo, so it's clear they don't understand Free to Play. The game is locked behind GFWL and is PC exclusive. Five months later, they ceased development on the game, leaving it with nowhere near enough content. In 2013, they removed the ability to purchase any of the content or download the game. In 2014, they shut the servers. Note that Microsoft previously killed the team that made Flight Simulator and then created a new team for this project.
- In October 2012, Microsoft launches the first traditionally F2P game on XBLA: Happy Wars, a Japanese-developed tug of war team based hack and slash multiplayer game. This game went pretty well, although they realized that the business model with F2P is attracting as many people as possible so that you can monetize whales, which was at odds with the whole "you need to pay $50 a year to be able to download this game". It's fine, because the developer went ahead and ported the game to Steam without Microsoft. On Steam it has a few million players.
- In May 2013, Microsoft releases Crash Course 2, a sequel to the free Doritos advertorial game Crash Course. It is pretty well received and very popular, millions on the leaderboards near release. Around the same time they release Crash Course Go, a version of the game for Windows 8. Both games are cancelled less than a year after release and the servers shut down effective immediately.
- In July 2013, Microsoft announces Lift London is working on 4 F2P games. None ever release or are announced.
- In September 2013, Microsoft publishes Ascend: New Gods, by Signal Studios, the popular developers of the Toy Soldiers franchise. This is an F2P dungeon crawl 3rd person ARPG, kinda like Kingdoms of Amalur or Elder Scrolls or a more mechanically intense Fable. The game is actually super popular, lots of people play it. Less than a year after release, Microsoft cancels the game, removes it from sale, and gives everyone 3 day's notice about a server shutdown. Also they do not tell the developer, Signal Studios, who is completely blindsided. Signal ports the game to Steam, where it did OK for a while. It's still available. Signal hasn't worked with Microsoft since.
- A little bit before shutting down Ascend: New Gods, Microsoft shows the first footage of Fable Legends. At the time, the game is not specified as F2P, but it's later clarified to be F2P and Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play. Microsoft teases 5-10 years of support--that this is the Fable series as we know it going forward. Fable Legends is cancelled during open beta.
- In summer 2014, Microsoft betas Project Spark, a game creation game that's F2P with Microtransactions. The game discontinues development and goes free a year after release, the F2P model having not worked at all.
- In June 2015, Microsoft confirms that they are publishing Gigantic, an Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play F2P MOBA by indie developer Motiga. The game is in closed beta and moving to open beta this summer. Well, maybe, because a month ago the developer announced significant layoffs.

These are not all of Microsoft's F2P failures--I could also talk about the semi-F2P business model of Game Room, which failed, Microsoft's bad attempts to make their old free Windows parlour games (Minesweeper, Mahjong, Solitaire) into money-making opportunities but instead alienating their audience, Age of Empires: Castle Siege (a bad Clash of Clans clone).

I could also talk about the failure of their cloud gaming initiative by exploring how just about every Microsoft server-based game has been shut down. I could also talk about how Galactic Reign, released by Microsoft as a bold experiment in cloud-based rendering of cutscenes -- pay attention if you like Quantum Break -- shut down 6 months after release, leaving players unable to play the game. I could also talk about how all of Microsoft's major initiatives with the Xbox One: Smartglass, Cloud-based Rendering or Computing Features, and Dedicated Servers are all defunct.


Microsoft is the absolute master of failing at things even when it'd be easier to succeed. The good news is, pretty soon they'll have no more internal studios to shut down besides the ones reliably pumping out their biggest franchises every two years. As someone who bought a lot of Microsoft Game Studios titles and really loved so much of what they accomplished on 360, it sucks that shifting corporate priorities and an unwillingness to fully commit to gaming sabotaged so much of what they could have accomplished.
If your working on Halo, Forza, and Gears your safe. But then again I would have included Fable so really no one is safe at this point. These are some uncertain times for Microsoft.
 

Alebrije

Member
So Microsoft Game division slowly moving to be a software developer as his big brother ; on a few years we COULD see Halo or Forza on a Sony/ Nintendo console , just like Minecraft.

Microsoft could be the new Sega.
 

RexNovis

Banned
Can I just say a gigantic fuck you to all the people in here assigning sole responsibility to Don Mattrick or the studios for this? Because that shit really pisses me off. With the length of time this was allowed to go on in beta and with the amount of advertising sunk into the game so far this is every bit as much a textbook example of mismanagement as it is anything and last I checked that was Phil's job. This constant need to dismiss any and everything that casts a negative light on a talking head is terrifying. Some people in here seriously need to reevaluate their priorities.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
It sucks how people forget about the bolded part. You also forgot to mention the cancellation of Phantom Dust.

Yeah I didn't want to get too much into individual game publishing in the post since it was already long enough, so I only kept stuff that was central to my three points. I mentioned Black Tusk because what was clearly supposed to be an investment in broadening their portfolio became a way to continue one of their Big-3 series' when Epic pulled out.
 

joecanada

Member
I really cringe every time I type this, but at any point xbox really is in danger of being the halo, forza, gears, *fable, machine. I really enjoyed my time with 360 but having just needed a new pc, why would I ever get an xbox? but it doesn't appear they care though either, as long as I have a windows machine in my house.

Funny thing too is I cancelled my xbox live membership years ago but as soon as I logged into win10, there I am old halo 3 avatar and all.... lol ...
 

inky

Member
Stump with the finger on the pulse as always.

Microsoft burned me so hard with Age of Empires Online and Flight, but a lot of that other stuff I didn't even know about till now. What a disaster.
 

jelly

Member
It sucks how people forget about the bolded part. You also forgot to mention the cancellation of Phantom Dust.

Based Phil Spencer.

The studio head did say they jumped at the chance to do Gears but who knows, PR perhaps.

Would rather they got to do the new IP.
 
So Microsoft Game division slowly moving to be a software developer as his big brother ; on a few years we COULD see Halo or Forza on a Sony/ Nintendo console , just like Minecraft.

Microsoft could be the new Sega.

This won't happen, Minecraft is multiplatform because it's the second biggest franchise in gaming right now and it helps Microsoft to get users they might not get otherwise. Halo or Forza are either going to be Xbox/PC are nothing at all. The gaming business is a blip in MS' radar so if it's not going to help the Windows division there would be any reason for them to keep developing those games.
 

failgubbe

Member
I've been saying this exact thing for years now. When they cleaned house mid-360 generation it was ominous to me. When Bungie was allowed to buy their freedom as opposed to making something other than Halo the writing was on the wall.

As for Lionhead, a couple years ago Molyneux and a large number of the core founders for Lionhead and Big Blue Box (basically the majority of upper level former Bullfrog staffers) left over a period of a few months to 1. found new studios and 2. due to MS layoffs. That was when the writing was on the wall for this. Fable Legends exists because a F2P hack n' slash can be made with a skeleton crew and abandoned relatively easily, exactly like what MS did.

This is the reality for MS and has been for a while. Their only real commitment is to franchises they can turn around ~10M sales in 5 years. That might be a biennial Forza Motorsport + Horizon blend at 2.5M for the first and 1.5M for the second. That might be two Halo games in a 5 year window. Whatever it is if it doesn't offer repeatable high end sales MS just isn't interested.

The sad part was that if MS had even a shred of vision they would have pivoted towards PC a while ago, seen the value in a non-draconian (or at least one that appears to be) digital distro store for the platform, and would have constructed a worthwhile marketplace competitor for Steam utilizing much of the best services from Xbox Live. They could have really had something. Instead they've been entirely focused on how to build walls and install policies of exclusion and now they're feeling the pain from those choices.

Even worse, some of their old 500,000 to 1,000,000 selling franchises probably offer a better RoI than all the money they've sunk into Kinect, NFL licensing deals, and various pointless R&D projects that will never see the light of day.

Such is life, and this is why the Xbox One is their last console. Gaming is only a gateway to them, not a way of life, and that gateway has been firmly shut upon them multiple times now.

Lol youre acting as MS is the only one in this business for money
 

KampferZeon

Neo Member
Because it's not MS' job to help them become independent. If you were an investor would you put your money in a huge, possibly bloated studio who just had their game cancelled and was shut down by their publisher, or would you just poach the talent and start up a new, smaller, more economically efficient studio under a new name?

I was thinking in terms of developers relationships. Managing a Studio is like managing your human resources, you don't just trash them when you are done with it. Also gamers were promised a game and Microsoft never deliver.
So I am talking about human relationships here.
Also Microsoft paid 2.5 billion for Minecraft! They could have bought the whole of Capcom's Stock with Minecraft money.

That's because to "let the studio go" would have either required of Lionhead to prep the case ahead of time when they signed up (what Bungie probably did, but they still lost their IP which stayed behind with MS) or an external entity to pony up enough cash to make it worthwhile for MS to let not only the people go but also the IPs (what makes the backbone of a studio, beside its name).

My guess is that MS values the IPs still, and therefore preferred to shut the studio down rather than sell it or let it go.
I feel bad for the LH folks... Hope they find a home soon.

This is a tragedy. I was also shocked when I head Project Spark too

Microsoft should just sell the xbox division to Sega/Facebook/Amazon now, when people still have faith in the Xbox brand.
Because Microsoft in Gaming doesn't inspire any confidence.

#Stumpokapow's post is so depresssing
 

prwxv3

Member
The xbone is selling well the problem is that it was not designed (and invested in) to just sell well. It was designed to dominate America and the UK. It failed to do that.
 

Kayant

Member
I could also talk about the failure of their cloud gaming initiative by exploring how just about every Microsoft server-based game has been shut down. I could also talk about how Galactic Reign, released by Microsoft as a bold experiment in cloud-based rendering of cutscenes -- pay attention if you like Quantum Break -- shut down 6 months after release, leaving players unable to play the game. I could also talk about how all of Microsoft's major initiatives with the Xbox One: Smartglass, Cloud-based Rendering or Computing Features, and Dedicated Servers are all defunct.

Great summary but is this really true? I was under the assumption the reason why it's not as big as they push it is because only first party studios get "free" access to it whilst third parties have to pay once development is over or in the case of respawn where they got a "heavy discount". And Crackdown 3 is still alive for now.
 
Not surprised one bit, the studio hasn't produced a big hit in years.

I'm not singling you out but I've seen this sentiment so often around here. A lot of times a publisher or client approaches a developer it's like:
Make us a game about X.
It should include "insert PR buzzwords here" and your budget is Y. Good luck!

Very often it's not a studio's fault when games turn out to be subpar but it's a budget issues coupled with unrealistic expectations when it comes to content.
 
So Microsoft closes lionhead and this is what happens. I can't imagine what it was like when Sony closed studio Liverpool/psygnosis

People are going fully crazy train in here lol
 

nib95

Banned
Microsoft Studios is now publishing only the biggest hits
Let's just recap Microsoft's generation in review:
- Start Lift London
- Downsize the XBLA/Microsoft Studios team because MS doesn't want to be in the business of publishing so many indie games
- Close Microsoft Victoria
- Cancel Black Tusk's original game and make them the Gears studio
- Close Xbox Entertainment Studios
- Buy Mojang
- Merge Lift London with other UK-based small teams
- Promote Kudo to oversee Lift London and other UK based teams
- Kudo transfered out of Microsoft Games
- Spin off Twisted Pixel Games
- Close Press Play
- Close Lionhead

In light of the W10/Xbox One news recently, I would interpret this as the following: Microsoft does not see themselves as a hardware platform owner anymore. As a result, their interest in developing games is no longer about establishing a diverse portfolio (even at a loss), but instead about just publishing games only if they make reliable money with no risk. Hence why they're willing to sign with outside partners, and hence why they're still making Halo, Forza, Minecraft, and Gears. If you were going to transition away from the hardware model but still wanted to publish the odd game and didn't want to shut down the division at all, this is exactly what you'd do. Besides these franchises, almost all of Microsoft's first-party partners are now working on Hololens, and it's not clear that Hololens is going to be a consumer focused gaming product during the Xbox One's lifespan. The exceptions: the Project Spark team (W10/XO--whose game got shut down) and Decisive Games (presumably working on AoE, for W10/XO), and Rare.

As it relates to Press Play, Microsoft's purchase never really made any sense to begin with, just as it didn't with Twisted Pixel, but my thoughts at the time were that it was driven by wanting to have a robust portfolio of indie exclusives as other indie titles went increasingly multiplatform. Neither company had mega hits, although both had some success. In addition, neither company was all that large, so shutting them down isn't just a vote of non-confidence, it's a vote that they aren't even interested in owning those types of companies.

Microsoft did a pretty crap job of making use of Lionhead
Finally, separate from the musing about Microsoft Studios, I think Lionhead Studios has been treated extremely poorly by Microsoft. Microsoft did not secure Black & White from EA or The Movies from Activision when they bought Lionhead. The lack of care about the studio's non-Fable history was palpable. Also let it be noted that every non-Fable game they worked on under Microsoft got cancelled. Which would be OK if they cared about Fable, but here's what they did with Fable:
- Fable 1 gets a late PC port
- Fable 2 never gets a PC port
- Fable 3 gets a GFWL PC port that gets discontinued years ago when they run out of keys, MS never bothers to remove GFWL
- Fable Heroes never gets a PC port
- Fable The Journey never gets a PC port
- Fable Anniversary gets a late PC port with a rocky launch
- Fable Legends cancelled during beta

Microsoft sucks at F2P
Let's talk about free to play, though. Free to play is a pretty exciting business model for publishers and fans alike, if executed properly. MS has really sent some big signals about F2P and their interest in it. How have they done?

- In Summer 2011, Microsoft publishes Age of Empires Online for PC (GFWL). The game was developed by Robot Entertainment, also known as the company that formed when Microsoft closed Ensemble Studios (the previous developers of Age of Empires). Microsoft had Ensemble develop a console exclusive RTS which ended up being a huge hit but then closed them because I guess they didn't want a PC studio? Who knows? The game started as basically a free demo that required you to pay to buy into most of the content. It also started as a busywork grind. A year later, Microsoft, having basically bungled the game's first year, released the game on Steam (still required GFWL) and lowered the prices. This also did not work. Then a few months later they made the game actually F2P--you could unlock all the content by grinding, or pay to accelerate. A little under 2 years after release, they discontinued development on the game. 8 months later they shut down the servers. As the game is online only, it can no longer be played.
- In 2011, Microsoft publishes Crimson Alliance for XBLA as free to play. Except it turns out they don't understand free to play and the game costs money to play. When they are asked about this, they explain that the demo is free to play (as it was for every other XBLA game released on Xbox 360). ??? Great game, no followup, developer is now a support studio for Halo, no chance of game being ported to a modern platform.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Windows 8. A variety of the launch games for the platform are "Free to Play", including a great little point and click / hidden object hybrid called Adera. The free to play model for Adera is that you can play the first quarter for free and then pay for the rest. So, again, a demo. Other games are actually free to play, but they're versions of games that used to be entirely free. One game is an endless runner called Gunstringer Dead Man Running. Gunstringer is F2P with currency in a similar model to, say, Jetpack Joyride. This game is shut down in 2014.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Microsoft Flight, a free to play revival of Flight Simulator. Again, the free content is basically a demo, so it's clear they don't understand Free to Play. The game is locked behind GFWL and is PC exclusive. Five months later, they ceased development on the game, leaving it with nowhere near enough content. In 2013, they removed the ability to purchase any of the content or download the game. In 2014, they shut the servers. Note that Microsoft previously killed the team that made Flight Simulator and then created a new team for this project.
- In October 2012, Microsoft launches the first traditionally F2P game on XBLA: Happy Wars, a Japanese-developed tug of war team based hack and slash multiplayer game. This game went pretty well, although they realized that the business model with F2P is attracting as many people as possible so that you can monetize whales, which was at odds with the whole "you need to pay $50 a year to be able to download this game". It's fine, because the developer went ahead and ported the game to Steam without Microsoft. On Steam it has a few million players.
- In May 2013, Microsoft releases Crash Course 2, a sequel to the free Doritos advertorial game Crash Course. It is pretty well received and very popular, millions on the leaderboards near release. Around the same time they release Crash Course Go, a version of the game for Windows 8. Both games are cancelled less than a year after release and the servers shut down effective immediately.
- In July 2013, Microsoft announces Lift London is working on 4 F2P games. None ever release or are announced.
- In September 2013, Microsoft publishes Ascend: New Gods, by Signal Studios, the popular developers of the Toy Soldiers franchise. This is an F2P dungeon crawl 3rd person ARPG, kinda like Kingdoms of Amalur or Elder Scrolls or a more mechanically intense Fable. The game is actually super popular, lots of people play it. Less than a year after release, Microsoft cancels the game, removes it from sale, and gives everyone 3 day's notice about a server shutdown. Also they do not tell the developer, Signal Studios, who is completely blindsided. Signal ports the game to Steam, where it did OK for a while. It's still available. Signal hasn't worked with Microsoft since.
- A little bit before shutting down Ascend: New Gods, Microsoft shows the first footage of Fable Legends. At the time, the game is not specified as F2P, but it's later clarified to be F2P and Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play. Microsoft teases 5-10 years of support--that this is the Fable series as we know it going forward. Fable Legends is cancelled during open beta.
- In summer 2014, Microsoft betas Project Spark, a game creation game that's F2P with Microtransactions. The game discontinues development and goes free a year after release, the F2P model having not worked at all.
- In June 2015, Microsoft confirms that they are publishing Gigantic, an Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play F2P MOBA by indie developer Motiga. The game is in closed beta and moving to open beta this summer. Well, maybe, because a month ago the developer announced significant layoffs.

These are not all of Microsoft's F2P failures--I could also talk about the semi-F2P business model of Game Room, which failed, Microsoft's bad attempts to make their old free Windows parlour games (Minesweeper, Mahjong, Solitaire) into money-making opportunities but instead alienating their audience, Age of Empires: Castle Siege (a bad Clash of Clans clone).

I could also talk about the failure of their cloud gaming initiative by exploring how just about every Microsoft server-based game has been shut down. I could also talk about how Galactic Reign, released by Microsoft as a bold experiment in cloud-based rendering of cutscenes -- pay attention if you like Quantum Break -- shut down 6 months after release, leaving players unable to play the game. I could also talk about how all of Microsoft's major initiatives with the Xbox One: Smartglass, Cloud-based Rendering or Computing Features, and Dedicated Servers are all defunct.


Microsoft is the absolute master of failing at things even when it'd be easier to succeed. The good news is, pretty soon they'll have no more internal studios to shut down besides the ones reliably pumping out their biggest franchises every two years. As someone who bought a lot of Microsoft Game Studios titles and really loved so much of what they accomplished on 360, it sucks that shifting corporate priorities and an unwillingness to fully commit to gaming sabotaged so much of what they could have accomplished.

Listen to the mad man. This is a comprehensive and well formed post.

As per above though, are "Xbox One: Smartglass, Cloud-based Rendering or Computing Features, and Dedicated Servers" actually defunct? Or just delayed and/or not properly focused?
 

LordRaptor

Member
Can I just a gigantic fuck you to all the people in here assigning sole responsibility to Don Mattrick or the studios for this? Because that shit really pisses me off. With the length of time this was allowed to go on in beta and with the amount of advertising sunk into the game so far this is every bit as much a textbook example of mismanagement as it is anything and last I checked that was Phil's job. This constant need to dismiss any and everything that casts a negative light on a talking head is terrifying. Some people in here seriously need to reevaluate their priorities.

I believe in Phil Spencer
being culpable, as direct oversight of Lionhead has been part of his job description since 2008
 
Can I just a gigantic fuck you to all the people in here assigning sole responsibility to Don Mattrick or the studios for this? Because that shit really pisses me off. With the length of time this was allowed to go on in beta and with the amount of advertising sunk into the game so far this is every bit as much a textbook example of mismanagement as it is anything and last I checked that was Phil's job. This constant need to dismiss any and everything that casts a negative light on a talking head is terrifying. Some people in here seriously need to reevaluate their priorities.

I gotta agree with this. Freaking crazy that people are not assigning blame to Phil.

I wish everyone that lost their jobs good luck as they try to find something else.
 

EBE

Member
im still fucking stunned at this news.
Fable Legends had just received SOME PRETTY major updates in the last few weeks.
 

neurosyphilis

Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
Microsoft Studios is now publishing only the biggest hits
Let's just recap Microsoft's generation in review:
- Start Lift London
- Downsize the XBLA/Microsoft Studios team because MS doesn't want to be in the business of publishing so many indie games
- Close Microsoft Victoria
- Cancel Black Tusk's original game and make them the Gears studio
- Close Xbox Entertainment Studios
- Buy Mojang
- Merge Lift London with other UK-based small teams
- Promote Kudo to oversee Lift London and other UK based teams
- Kudo transfered out of Microsoft Games
- Spin off Twisted Pixel Games
- Close Press Play
- Close Lionhead

In light of the W10/Xbox One news recently, I would interpret this as the following: Microsoft does not see themselves as a hardware platform owner anymore. As a result, their interest in developing games is no longer about establishing a diverse portfolio (even at a loss), but instead about just publishing games only if they make reliable money with no risk. Hence why they're willing to sign with outside partners, and hence why they're still making Halo, Forza, Minecraft, and Gears. If you were going to transition away from the hardware model but still wanted to publish the odd game and didn't want to shut down the division at all, this is exactly what you'd do. Besides these franchises, almost all of Microsoft's first-party partners are now working on Hololens, and it's not clear that Hololens is going to be a consumer focused gaming product during the Xbox One's lifespan. The exceptions: the Project Spark team (W10/XO--whose game got shut down) and Decisive Games (presumably working on AoE, for W10/XO), and Rare.

As it relates to Press Play, Microsoft's purchase never really made any sense to begin with, just as it didn't with Twisted Pixel, but my thoughts at the time were that it was driven by wanting to have a robust portfolio of indie exclusives as other indie titles went increasingly multiplatform. Neither company had mega hits, although both had some success. In addition, neither company was all that large, so shutting them down isn't just a vote of non-confidence, it's a vote that they aren't even interested in owning those types of companies.

Microsoft did a pretty crap job of making use of Lionhead
Finally, separate from the musing about Microsoft Studios, I think Lionhead Studios has been treated extremely poorly by Microsoft. Microsoft did not secure Black & White from EA or The Movies from Activision when they bought Lionhead. The lack of care about the studio's non-Fable history was palpable. Also let it be noted that every non-Fable game they worked on under Microsoft got cancelled. Which would be OK if they cared about Fable, but here's what they did with Fable:
- Fable 1 gets a late PC port
- Fable 2 never gets a PC port
- Fable 3 gets a GFWL PC port that gets discontinued years ago when they run out of keys, MS never bothers to remove GFWL
- Fable Heroes never gets a PC port
- Fable The Journey never gets a PC port
- Fable Anniversary gets a late PC port with a rocky launch
- Fable Legends cancelled during beta

Microsoft sucks at F2P
Let's talk about free to play, though. Free to play is a pretty exciting business model for publishers and fans alike, if executed properly. MS has really sent some big signals about F2P and their interest in it. How have they done?

- In Summer 2011, Microsoft publishes Age of Empires Online for PC (GFWL). The game was developed by Robot Entertainment, also known as the company that formed when Microsoft closed Ensemble Studios (the previous developers of Age of Empires). Microsoft had Ensemble develop a console exclusive RTS which ended up being a huge hit but then closed them because I guess they didn't want a PC studio? Who knows? The game started as basically a free demo that required you to pay to buy into most of the content. It also started as a busywork grind. A year later, Microsoft, having basically bungled the game's first year, released the game on Steam (still required GFWL) and lowered the prices. This also did not work. Then a few months later they made the game actually F2P--you could unlock all the content by grinding, or pay to accelerate. A little under 2 years after release, they discontinued development on the game. 8 months later they shut down the servers. As the game is online only, it can no longer be played.
- In 2011, Microsoft publishes Crimson Alliance for XBLA as free to play. Except it turns out they don't understand free to play and the game costs money to play. When they are asked about this, they explain that the demo is free to play (as it was for every other XBLA game released on Xbox 360). ??? Great game, no followup, developer is now a support studio for Halo, no chance of game being ported to a modern platform.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Windows 8. A variety of the launch games for the platform are "Free to Play", including a great little point and click / hidden object hybrid called Adera. The free to play model for Adera is that you can play the first quarter for free and then pay for the rest. So, again, a demo. Other games are actually free to play, but they're versions of games that used to be entirely free. One game is an endless runner called Gunstringer Dead Man Running. Gunstringer is F2P with currency in a similar model to, say, Jetpack Joyride. This game is shut down in 2014.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Microsoft Flight, a free to play revival of Flight Simulator. Again, the free content is basically a demo, so it's clear they don't understand Free to Play. The game is locked behind GFWL and is PC exclusive. Five months later, they ceased development on the game, leaving it with nowhere near enough content. In 2013, they removed the ability to purchase any of the content or download the game. In 2014, they shut the servers. Note that Microsoft previously killed the team that made Flight Simulator and then created a new team for this project.
- In October 2012, Microsoft launches the first traditionally F2P game on XBLA: Happy Wars, a Japanese-developed tug of war team based hack and slash multiplayer game. This game went pretty well, although they realized that the business model with F2P is attracting as many people as possible so that you can monetize whales, which was at odds with the whole "you need to pay $50 a year to be able to download this game". It's fine, because the developer went ahead and ported the game to Steam without Microsoft. On Steam it has a few million players.
- In May 2013, Microsoft releases Crash Course 2, a sequel to the free Doritos advertorial game Crash Course. It is pretty well received and very popular, millions on the leaderboards near release. Around the same time they release Crash Course Go, a version of the game for Windows 8. Both games are cancelled less than a year after release and the servers shut down effective immediately.
- In July 2013, Microsoft announces Lift London is working on 4 F2P games. None ever release or are announced.
- In September 2013, Microsoft publishes Ascend: New Gods, by Signal Studios, the popular developers of the Toy Soldiers franchise. This is an F2P dungeon crawl 3rd person ARPG, kinda like Kingdoms of Amalur or Elder Scrolls or a more mechanically intense Fable. The game is actually super popular, lots of people play it. Less than a year after release, Microsoft cancels the game, removes it from sale, and gives everyone 3 day's notice about a server shutdown. Also they do not tell the developer, Signal Studios, who is completely blindsided. Signal ports the game to Steam, where it did OK for a while. It's still available. Signal hasn't worked with Microsoft since.
- A little bit before shutting down Ascend: New Gods, Microsoft shows the first footage of Fable Legends. At the time, the game is not specified as F2P, but it's later clarified to be F2P and Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play. Microsoft teases 5-10 years of support--that this is the Fable series as we know it going forward. Fable Legends is cancelled during open beta.
- In summer 2014, Microsoft betas Project Spark, a game creation game that's F2P with Microtransactions. The game discontinues development and goes free a year after release, the F2P model having not worked at all.
- In June 2015, Microsoft confirms that they are publishing Gigantic, an Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play F2P MOBA by indie developer Motiga. The game is in closed beta and moving to open beta this summer. Well, maybe, because a month ago the developer announced significant layoffs.

These are not all of Microsoft's F2P failures--I could also talk about the semi-F2P business model of Game Room, which failed, Microsoft's bad attempts to make their old free Windows parlour games (Minesweeper, Mahjong, Solitaire) into money-making opportunities but instead alienating their audience, Age of Empires: Castle Siege (a bad Clash of Clans clone).

I could also talk about the failure of their cloud gaming initiative by exploring how just about every Microsoft server-based game has been shut down. I could also talk about how Galactic Reign, released by Microsoft as a bold experiment in cloud-based rendering of cutscenes -- pay attention if you like Quantum Break -- shut down 6 months after release, leaving players unable to play the game. I could also talk about how all of Microsoft's major initiatives with the Xbox One: Smartglass, Cloud-based Rendering or Computing Features, and Dedicated Servers are all defunct.


Microsoft is the absolute master of failing at things even when it'd be easier to succeed. The good news is, pretty soon they'll have no more internal studios to shut down besides the ones reliably pumping out their biggest franchises every two years. As someone who bought a lot of Microsoft Game Studios titles and really loved so much of what they accomplished on 360, it sucks that shifting corporate priorities and an unwillingness to fully commit to gaming sabotaged so much of what they could have accomplished.

This is probably new thread worthy. I didn't believe it at first and thought people were always joking when they said it, but I honestly believe MS is getting out the console business and being PC only. Hope the NX will be a hit, if not it's only going to be Sony.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
So Microsoft Game division slowly moving to be a software developer as his big brother ; on a few years we COULD see Halo or Forza on a Sony/ Nintendo console , just like Minecraft.

Microsoft could be the new Sega.

The big difference being that a software only MS would have huge bank accounts and steady income to fund itself and thus stay successful and most likely even flourish. Sega's big downfall was caused more by debt than by going software only. This is why I still think going software only was Nintendo's best option (even though they aren't now). Nintendo has a huge list of IP's coupled with lots of saved cash, they could leverage both of those into a super successful cross platform software company. Sega was missing the huge bankroll to fund itself. :(

However, if MS continues to axe developers then they might be shooting their own foot before they even start to run...
 

jelly

Member
So what dirt does Phil Spencer have on everyone to have survived this long at Microsoft Game Studios and Xbox. That's quite the train wreck being head of Microsoft Game Studios and now Xbox. What was he doing! He must have the worst bosses ever or worst luck ever to have the division mess consistently like that. I guess the high notes of Halo, Forza and Gears paper over the grand canyon.
 
I knew a lot of good people working at Lionhead around the time MS bought them, luckily most are gone now (well were gone before they closed), but sympathies to those who got fired today.

On an egotistical level, I won't miss Lionhead. Having become a pretty much fable exclusive developer bored me to tears, what I was interested in was always black & white, and the movies. But it's still sad to see them go out, although I guess not too surprising it would happen. Certainly did think they would release fable legends first though. But they were a shell of their former self, and while I admittedly didn't play fable legends, it looked absolutely horrible to me.

The old lionhead forums, before they transferred to Microsofts weird shitty forums, were absolutely amazing. One of the best communities I've ever been part of.
 
Can I just say a gigantic fuck you to all the people in here assigning sole responsibility to Don Mattrick or the studios for this? Because that shit really pisses me off. With the length of time this was allowed to go on in beta and with the amount of advertising sunk into the game so far this is every bit as much a textbook example of mismanagement as it is anything and last I checked that was Phil's job. This constant need to dismiss any and everything that casts a negative light on a talking head is terrifying. Some people in here seriously need to reevaluate their priorities.

It's embarassing, almost like they are doing everything to protect Phil's image, it's down right bizarre.
 
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