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[kadotsu]

A reading of his point I agree with is that nothing should be off limits but the actual human tragedy of the victims of oppression. The problem is that the term "political correctness" means fuck all at this point. When a term spans a band of "wild cotton shouldn't be sold as decor" to I just wanted to express my dissatisfaction by saying "let's lynch that n****" and how dare you to correct me, it truly has lost all meaning (even if you have a hard on for Schopenhauer).

A video that makes the point better than I ever will:

Mel Brooks, The Producers and the Ethics of Satire about Nazis

 

[dickroach]

"So...I won't trash (oops, "parody") my own history, but I'll trash yours. And feel free to do the same!"

I mean....

Mel Brooks has made fun of Jews many times

 

[Crow Pudding]

Humor should take risks and be a tool to take people off their comfort zone.

But always with a clear line between the transgression and the insult. (I will not say offense because today everybody is being offended for the meaningless thing).

 

[royalan]

You're basically proving his point with this silly purity test about comedy as far as I'm concerned.

No, the point is, it's a fairly hollow statement to make. So hollow, why make it all.

In one breath, he bashes "political correctness." The next he admits there are lines he wouldn't personally cross. He's admitting to the same limits that other people and creators are admitting to and are bashed for being PC. It's the same thing this bullshit argument always boils down to.

So...which is it?

 

[cromofo]

Nothing is off limits. If it's funny, you can joke about anything.

If someone gets offended, fuck them, who cares.

 

[Moff]

He says he would not make jokes about the holocaust, not no one should do it.

I still think he is wrong. I have never seen blazing saddles though. Is it a racist movie or does it make fun of racism? Big difference.

Reminds me of Seinfeld, David and Gervais who said similar things about political correctness, but I never found anything racist in their work so I am confused what they are talking about.

 

[MarionCB]

None of it is off-limits, it's just you can't do it poorly. "hur-dur racist/sexist joke" is no longer funny just by saying it; it's appalling it ever was. Meanwhile, skilled comedians like Louis CK and Stewart Lee can make jokes about anything because they are erudite enough to do so. Only the stupid and actually bigoted suffer, and that's only in terms of negative reaction from the audience. Sounds like progress to me.

I mean, The Producers is at least indirectly about the holocaust. I haven't seen any reaction against that. There was even a remake.

 

[Seesaw15]

My go to response for the role of political correctness in comedy. BoJack Horesman's Raphael Bob-Waksberg sums it up perfectly in a VICE interview.

The big debate within the comedy community is the idea of "political correctness," and whether its censorship or valid criticism. Where do you stand on that?

Well censorship is a strong word, right?

I think most people who argue for what you might call political correctness, are not actually arguing for censorship. They're arguing for self-control and self-restraint. They're arguing for people to be conscious of the power they have, right? And I believe that I have a lot of power, as someone making popular entertainment. I do think we have to be careful about the art we put out. We want to make the argument that our art has power so we can't then also say that it has no effect over people, these people are adults who can make their own decisions. I think the art we make influences people, and I think with that power comes great responsibility, to quote Spiderman.

I don't want the government to be censoring people, I don't think there should be censoring boards, but I think that means that we the artists need to be very careful about what we're putting out and what were saying and how we're saying it. And I don't think we're being as careful as we should be.

It's the difference between punching up and punching down.

Absolutely. I'm really glad that kind of idea is starting to take hold. I think that's a great way to kind of frame it. I don't necessarily think anything is off limits but you have to know who your audience is and know who you're talking to and what kind of jokes you're making.

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/...ship?utm_campaign=global&utm_source=vicefbanz

 

[*Splinter]

Actually I think the more pertinent question is "would Brooks choose to watch/enjoy a comedy about the Holocaust".

The people he's criticising are consumers, not creators (I think).

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

No, the point is, it's a fairly hollow statement to make. So hollow, why make it all.

In one breath, he bashes "political correctness." The next he admits there are lines he wouldn't personally cross. He's admitting to the same limits that other people and creators are admitting to and are bashed for being PC. It's the same thing this bullshit argument always boils down to.

So...which is it?

No the difference is that he is saying he personally has some limits for the material/jokes/content that he himself creates, not that his own personal limits should be broadly applied to everyone else.

THAT is the difference between someone having their own ideas/opinions/limits on things and other people trying to force their OWN personal limits onto other creators, people, content etc...

Those are the people being "bashed as PC".

 

[mocolostrocolos]

He's right.

 

[East Lake]

No, the point is, it's a fairly hollow statement to make. So hollow, why make it all.

In one breath, he bashes "political correctness." The next he admits there are lines he wouldn't personally cross. He's admitting to the same limits that other people and creators are admitting to and are bashed for being PC. It's the same thing this bullshit argument always boils down to.

So...which is it?

What's your position, that he has to tell holocaust jokes? Why is it important that he personally tells them if he doesn't have a problem with others doing it?

 

[AMUSIX]

I still think he is wrong. I have never seen blazing saddles though. Is it a racist movie or does it make fun of racism? Big difference.

It makes fun of racism by being racist.

Curious, as you think that he's wrong, what topics do you think are off limits for comedy?

 

[Snoopycat]

I'm not sure why some people are so desperate to raise their pitchforks against the man. He fought the Nazis in WW2. He's spent years making fun of Hitler in film and on stage. He's said in past interviews that by using comedy he was trying to take away the power of Hitler's image. He doesn't want to use the suffering people went through in concentration camps as a source humor, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Yeah If a joke is funny, I'll laugh. Nothing is off limits imo.

The chappelle specials were a great example of this. Both hilarious but lots of people were up in arms about it.

 

[PJV3]

Comedy seems to be doing OK, a lot of the politically incorrect stuff is just lazy, the trade off hasn't been a bad thing on the whole.

 

[Moff]

It makes fun of racism by being racist.

Curious, as you think that he's wrong, what topics do you think are off limits for comedy?

Jokes should not be racist, sexist, transphobic etc.
But there is a big difference between making fun of racism or making a racist joke. The former is obviously not wrong, the latter is and is not pc. Which is what confuses me because I never saw a racist joke from the comedians I mentioned but they all attacked political correctness.

I might give blazing saddles a watch though.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

No, the point is, it's a fairly hollow statement to make. So hollow, why make it all.

In one breath, he bashes "political correctness." The next he admits there are lines he wouldn't personally cross. He's admitting to the same limits that other people and creators are admitting to and are bashed for being PC. It's the same thing this bullshit argument always boils down to.

So...which is it?

So the only way you would accept his statement is if he were willing to make material he isn't personally comfortable with? That seems a bit mean-spirited and petty if I'm gonna be honest.

It's hard to tell from the quotes but I think he is talking about PC from the point of consumers trying to dictate what is okay and what isn't...

His quote is just stating that as a creator that is a line he wouldn't cross.

It would be hollow or hypocritical if he were complaining about another comedian making that story of content, but that isn't the case and considering who we are taking about I sincerely doubt he would.

 

[eXistor]

Eh I agree, we're rapidly moving into an age (if we're not there already) where everyone gets offended by everything, very often without truly knowing why.

 

[royalan]

What's your position, that he has to tell holocaust jokes? Why is it important that he personally tells them if he doesn't have a problem with others doing it?

My position is that if Mel Brooks has limits, then he should respect the fact that other people have limits, or that they might even make the choice to be sensitive to the limits of others.

Nobody is being persecuted for their comedy, so this argument gets dangerously close to the "don't criticize me for my comedy" argument that a few comedians and irresponsible writers like to lean on.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

"Political correctness" is an incredibly loaded term that it loses all its context depending on interpretation and mostly misinterpretation.

I hate the phrase because it already becomes preloaded with whatever bias you have.

 

[*Splinter]

No the difference is that he is saying he personally has some limits for the material/jokes/content that he himself creates, not that his own personal limits should be broadly applied to everyone else.

THAT is the difference between someone having their own ideas/opinions/limits on things and other people trying to force their OWN personal limits onto other creators, people, content etc...

Those are the people being "bashed as PC".

Who is forcing anything and how?

Criticising a performance is part of feedback/review. Choosing not to watch a performance is a personal choice, same as Brooks talks about wrt the Holocaust.

So where is the forcing? Unless you want certain criticisms (too racist, too sexist etc) to be silenced (which itself would be censorship!).

 

[ironmang]

Saying it's the death of comedy is a little too far but I can see comedians taking less risks due to people thinking it's alright to attack their livelihood if offended. Joke backlash should die.

 

[AMUSIX]

Jokes should not be racist, sexist, transphobic etc.
But there is a big difference between making fun of racism or making a racist joke. The former is obviously not wrong, the latter is and is not pc. Which is what confuses me because I never saw a racist joke from the comedians I mentioned but they all attacked political correctness.

I might give blazing saddles a watch though.

Then I think I'd say that you agree with what Brooks is saying. That there is no topic that should be completely off limits. What you have issue with (and, in my mind, rightly so) is mean-spirited humor. Essentially the difference between "Lets laugh at the Jews suffering" vs. "Lets laugh at the Jew's suffering"

 

[*Splinter]

Joke backlash should die.

Can't even call racist jokes racist these days.

Its political correctness gone mad!

 

[RoadHazard]

Everything should be fair game. Including the Holocaust.

 

[kadotsu]

Saying it's the death of comedy is a little too far but I can see comedians taking less risks due to people thinking it's alright to attack their livelihood if offended. Joke backlash should die.

Yeah, Rick & Morty is way tamer than the early Simpsons.

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

Can't even call racist jokes racist these days.

Its political correctness gone mad!

Did...you just quote yourself??? Do we have a poster with an alt account here arguing with himself to generate drama? Were you logged into the wrong account when you posted this?

Edit: Ah it seems you edited the post, most likely you clicked quote on the wrong post originally?

 

[East Lake]

My position is that if Mel Brooks has limits, then he should respect the fact that other people have limits, or that they might even make the choice to be sensitive to the limits of others.

Nobody is being persecuted for their comedy, so this argument gets dangerously close to the "don't criticize me for my comedy" argument that a few comedians and irresponsible writers like to lean on.

He has limits for what he'd perform, he may enjoy a good holocaust joke but not feel comfortable dwelling on the process of creating the joke on that topic. And if he didn't feel like hearing it then he doesn't have to. Seems like a non-issue!

 

[deadscreensky]

I'm not sure if I agree with him or not, but if any death is taking place I will say that widescale inept reading comprehension is clearly supplying the murder weapon.

 

[Razmos]

Your point?

He's a fossil with likely outdated views

 

[*Splinter]

Yeah, Rick & Morty is way tamer than the early Simpsons.

Different audiences. Let's not muddy the waters with poor arguments.

 

[royalan]

He has limits for what he'd perform, he may enjoy a good holocaust joke but not feel comfortable dwelling on the process of creating the joke on that topic. And if he didn't feel like hearing it then he doesn't have to. Seems like a non-issue!

Then let Mel Brooks say that.

 

[*Splinter]

Did...you just quote yourself??? Do we have a poster with an alt account here arguing with himself to generate drama? Were you logged into the wrong account when you posted this?

Edit: Ah it seems you edited the post, most likely you clicked quote on the wrong post originally?

It was an afterthought to the first post I quoted. Not sure why I chose to quote rather than edit, but someone gave me a better quote to use anyway so I've changed it to that.

 

[East Lake]

Then let Mel Brooks say that.

He shouldn't have to. If you're going to claim he's a hypocrite, then let him say nobody should tell holocaust jokes, but that's not what he said was it?

 

[Atolm]

Eh, I don't know a thing about this guy but I think it's unfair to give him shit for not being OK with Jews but yes to everything else. He's 91, he's old enough to remember the Gas chambers and the Nazis.

I mean, everyone has its own share of sensitive topics. I think it's normal for guys of his age to dislike jokes about the Holocaust. To each his own.

 

[AquaticSquirrel]

Then let Mel Brooks say that.

But you are the one misunderstanding what Mel Brooks is actually saying and inferring something very different from it. Doesn't that make you the one essentially putting words in his mouth?

 

[ironmang]

Can't even call racist jokes racist these days.

Its political correctness gone mad!

Giving an opinion is not the type of backlash I'm talking about but ok.

 

[BocoDragon]

Mel Brooks is 91

He's a fossil with likely outdated views

Gross.

 

[brau]

Reminds me of Rick and Morty, when Morty goes off at Summer.

https://youtu.be/Ah-QbFaY_wU

 

[Airola]

Yeah, Brooks wasn't a hypocrite there.
It's just like you wouldn't probably tell a "your mom" joke about your mom but someone else could and it's ok.

Why would anyone want to tell a holocaust joke?

Because it could be a funny joke?
Like when Nietzsche met Hitler.

 

[royalan]

Saying it's the death of comedy is a little too far but I can see comedians taking less risks due to people thinking it's alright to attack their livelihood if offended. Joke backlash should die.

We live in a society that used to find it funny for white people to paint their faces dark black and play out the exaggerated and stereotypical mannerisms of black people for laughs.

We live in a society that once thought it was completely hilarious that the Revenge of the Nerds movies were basically about a group of socially inept boys sexually assaulting women.

Comedy evolves as society does. And that's not really a bad thing.

 

[Spieler Eins]

He's a fossil with likely outdated views

Arguing for political correctness by stereotyping old people. Ingenious.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

You can tell a joke about anything, but don't expect it be free of consequence if it doesn't land the way you thought it would.

He's made some hilarious Jewish jokes ("Jews... in.... SPAAAAACE!") in a lot of his movies. Not touching the holocaust with his comedy? I understand that.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

How many times can PC kill comedy before it stays dead lol

It kind of makes me sad the man himself thinks Blazing Saddles couldn't get made today...

 

[*Splinter]

Giving an opinion is not the type of backlash I'm talking about but ok.

Fair enough and I apologise for twisting your views, but in that case can you give examples of the kind of backlash you are talking about? Because I can think of examples of people saying things where the joke was "lol racism" and being rightly called out for it, and I can think of examples of people not liking certain topics in jokes, but I can't think of much to support the idea that tasteful jokes on a controversial subject has led to censorship and/or careers being ruined. Not enough to support the "death of comedy" idea anyway.


The only examples I'm really getting are stupid people tripping up over (good) satire.

 

[Monkeyball]

He's a fossil with likely outdated views

Fossil eh, nice respect for age friend.

 

[Mango Positive]

People who like comedy generally don't give a shit about what other people find offensive. I personally am offended by other people who get offended and feel the need to share. Which I just did.

 

[Moonkid]

A video that makes the point better than I ever will:

Mel Brooks, The Producers and the Ethics of Satire about Nazis

Really digging the part about the satire paradox.

 

[astroturfing]

Mel Brooks is 91

you an ageist or something?