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[Walshicus]

HoloLens absolutely is comparable to PSVR in the context that I used it. Microsoft tried to use it to undercut the PSVR since they did not have a VR offering. HoloLens is NOW aimed at enterprise users, but that is not how it was first promoted. Do you not remember the Minecraft demo? That was pure manufactured false hype just like Microsoft is doing now with Scorpio.

I'm pretty sure most of the early demos of Hololens weren't gaming. Like the NASA demo. Or the Skype demo. Or the medical stuff. Minecraft was a pretty small part of it.

 

[anothertech]

You'll get it done worry


http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-scorpio-wont-make-4k-mandatory-devs-could/1100-6441045/

Oh you mean they are mixing up their messaging again today so no one knows what the hell to expect? Ok gotcha. Thx for that.

Edit: But yes you are indeed correct about that.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

It's not the price you want to sell at. It the price the bill of materials lets you sell at. $399 is the sweet spot, and Sony spec'd the Pro to hit it. Microsoft on the other hand decided to spec the Scorpio much higher than the Pro, which will push its price much higher than $399.

Unless of course their plan is for the Scorpio to be the baseline console for the next decade which they plan to iterate future consoles off. In which case they will most likely take a hit on it knowing they'll make it up later on.

My bet is still on $399 with $449 being the absolute worst case scenario.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Unless of course their plan is for the Scorpio to be the baseline console for the next decade which they plan to iterate future consoles off. In which case they will most likely take a hit on it knowing they'll make it up later on.

My bet is still on $399 with $449 being the absolute worst case scenario.

Didn't they say Xbox one would be the baseline, cause it'll be forwards compatible. I'm guessing at one point xbox one becomes a streaming console? Hmm.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Didn't they say Xbox one would be the baseline, cause it'll be forwards compatible. I'm guessing at one point xbox one becomes a streaming console? Hmm.

For now Xbox One is baseline. My guess is that MS want to rid itself of the Xbox One name for good. By 2018/2019 I think 1st party support for Xbox One ends.

Scorpio takes over as base model which I believe will last as the base model for close to a decade. Price will continue to drop over time, so they can continue to get people into the ecosystem with a cheap entry level powerful box. They'll probably create a really efficient architecture that allows them to iterate off for future revisions mean they should be cheap out of the gate.

I suspect Microsoft are playing the really long game on this one. I'm just speculating of course based on the moves they seem to be making.

 

[synce]

I believe it, but like most games today I'm sure it'll be a struggle to even reach 30fps

 

[Chris1]

For now Xbox One is baseline. My guess is that MS want to rid itself of the Xbox One name for good. By 2018/2019 I think 1st party support for Xbox One ends.

Scorpio takes over as base model which I believe will last as the base model for close to a decade. Price will continue to drop over time, so they can continue to get people into the ecosystem with a cheap entry level powerful box. They'll probably create a really efficient architecture that allows them to iterate off for future revisions mean they should be cheap out of the gate.

I suspect Microsoft are playing the really long game on this one. I'm just speculating of course based on the moves they seem to be making.

2018/19 is way too soon. XB1 will be dropped about a year after Scorpio 2 / PS5 launch with it getting the odd game here or there in their first years.

 

[EventHorizon]

The 6TF is the GPU alone. That may not change. We don't know the RAM, CPU or anything else involved at all. Given its over a year out, a fair bit coukd change.

All that other stuff is just to make sure that the GPU can actually do the 6TF it is rated at. Without improvements in other systems, you'd get a bottleneck that starved the GPU of the data it needs to do its job. Put another way, if the GPU is rated at 6TF, it will never do more than 6TF no matter how good the RAM, CPU or anything else is that is added.

Possibly. However, it's a year later so we have to consider economies of scale will at least marginally ameliorate the bill of materials problem. Also, although no company seems willing to take a loss on hardware these days, MS is *far* more financially capable of doing so if need be. MS has, at times, shown an amazing capacity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. But I think by now even the dumbest MS exec knows that anything above the $400 sweet spot is a non-starter for any kind of mainstream success. If they do start at $500-$600 that's a definite sign they're abdicating this gen and expecting the Scorpio to achieve niche success at best. Even the Pro, supposedly geared towards "hardcore gamers", hits that sweet spot. Sony learned their lesson after trying the PS3 at $600. After the Xbone launch debacle trying out $500 with similar results I'd expect Phil's common sense will prevail when it comes to internal launch price debates.

The economies of scale play little to no part in the calculation since the PS4 Pro has the exact same economies of scale and it is priced at $399. Prices don't drop that much in a single year.

Microsoft has shown little desire to subsidize the Xbox One this gen. If anything they are downgrading its importance by sharing Xbox exclusives with the PC. However that is besides the point. As even you pointed out, "no company seems willing to take a loss on hardware these days." It's not a matter of could Microsoft subsidize the Xbox One. It's a matter of would Microsoft subsidize the Xbox One. All signs point to a resounding 'No' to that one. I think Microsoft had more than enough of going into the red on the Xbox when they had to deal with its Red Ring of Death issues last gen. They know from that the liability they acquire from sell the hardware, and don't want to add on to that.

I honestly think Microsoft got caught flat footed. They weren't prepared for a half-gen console increase when news of the Pro started to come out. They knew they couldn't get a console out this year so would be at least a year behind. Coming out with the same specs at that point would be suicide, and would give them absolutely no good PR to try to halt any advantage Sony gets with the Pro's year head start. They had to go high end. However, coming up with specs good enough to get some people to wait on the Scorpio meant that the price had to be much higher than the Pro's as well.

A complementary pet theory I have is that Microsoft wants to really push the Microsoft Store, and would love to get a product in people's hands that competes with a PC but only allows software through the store to be installed. The Xbox One is very close to such a product, but lacks the CPU power to handle general computing tasks. Scorpio is just a means for Microsoft to sell you a locked down PC. If this theory is true, I expect Scorpio to go for closer to a PC price than a console price. It'll be a compact mass marketed appliance PC that can also play Xbox One games.

In this context, a $600+ Scorpio makes sense. It allows Microsoft to engage in the spec wars they are currently in to slow the Pro's sales. It also gives them another outlet to push their Microsoft store sales on a platform that can run any application in the store, and not just those capable of running on the XB1 specs. Think about a locked down Surface notebook without a screen and in a larger (but still small for a PC) form factor.

 

[Chris1]

Microsoft has shown little desire to subsidize the Xbox One this gen. If anything they are downgrading its importance by sharing Xbox exclusives with the PC. However that is besides the point. As even you pointed out, "no company seems willing to take a loss on hardware these days." It's not a matter of could Microsoft subsidize the Xbox One. It's a matter of would Microsoft subsidize the Xbox One. All signs point to a resounding 'No' to that one. I think Microsoft had more than enough of going into the red on the Xbox when they had to deal with its Red Ring of Death issues last gen. They know from that the liability they acquire from sell the hardware, and don't want to add on to that.

Uhhh.. Have you seen the deals going on with XB1's for the past 2 years? They're clearly subsidizing it and taking a loss. Even Phil Spencer hinted to losing $ on hardware in an IGN unlocked episode a while back.

It's not are MS going to take a loss on hardware, it's how much.

 

[Wagram]

If it's native then that console is definitely not close to $400. They can't cheap out on a crap CPU. That or you're looking at some mediocre settings to hit that 4K benchmark.

 

[odhiex]

Big promiseS, I hope they deliver on what they have said. I'm still interested in buying Scorpio as my first xbox. However, nor PS4pro or Scorpio is my priority right now... I'm anticipating the NX as my next family console / handheld.

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

What 1st party games I've to ask? Besides Crackdown 3 and the usual Forza + Halo combo at holidays MS have announced nothing new. All the big titles are out or will be out before Scorpio launches. So what the hell are they talking about?

Forza 7
Forza Horizon 4
Gears Next
Halo Continued

 

[EventHorizon]

I'm pretty sure most of the early demos of Hololens weren't gaming. Like the NASA demo. Or the Skype demo. Or the medical stuff. Minecraft was a pretty small part of it.

You are forgetting the June 2015 Mincraft demo. Or how about the October 2015 Shoot the robots coming through yours walls demo.

Unless of course their plan is for the Scorpio to be the baseline console for the next decade which they plan to iterate future consoles off. In which case they will most likely take a hit on it knowing they'll make it up later on.

My bet is still on $399 with $449 being the absolute worst case scenario.

How in the world would Scorpio go for $399 when it has better specs than the PS4 Pro and the Pro goes for $399? The Pro was priced at $499 just for using an upgraded CPU and Scorpio has much more than that. It would be VERY generous to say that Scorpio will be $499. After all, it's supposed to be able to play native 4K games which you currently need a pretty high end PC to do.

Once again this discussion is just like the ones we had when talking about HoloLens. I remember making this very same critique that it was simply going to be way too expensive. There was absolutely no way Microsoft could get it to do everything that was promised at an inexpensive price. History is repeating itself with Scorpio. It is going to be expensive to make, and Microsoft isn't going to lose many millions of dollars subsidizing it.

Uhhh.. Have you seen the deals going on with XB1's for the past 2 years? They're clearly subsidizing it and taking a loss. Even Phil Spencer hinted to losing $ on hardware in an IGN unlocked episode a while back.

It's not are MS going to take a loss on hardware, it's how much.

They aren't subsidizing the console anywhere near what they did last gen. They subsidized the Xbox One on something of the order of $10. What you are talking about for the Scorpio is on the order of early PS3 levels of subsidization of $100s of dollars. That ain't happening.

 

[blakep267]

Forza 7
Forza Horizon 4
Gears Next
Halo Continued

Id Say Halo 5, FH3 and Gears 4 all get patched for Scorpio next year. The you add State of Decay 2, Sea of Thieves, Scalebound, Crackdown, Halo wars 2, and Forza 7( you know its gonna come eventually). Thats 9 games that would likely be 4k at launch

 

[leeh]

Yes there is. First, you have the report that AMD's president hinted at this during an investor meeting last month. Second, you have the recent slide from AMD saying that desktop Zen will be H1 2017, and notebook Zen H2 2017. Combine that with their earlier statements that Zen would roll out in the order desktop, notebook, APU.

Just ignore the rest of my post and provide no evidence...

There is no quote from the AMD CEO, this was made up on a uncredited blog. The slide I posted is directly on about the Scorpio and incremental design wins for H1 2017 with no mention of the Pro.

 

[Hawk269]

It's not the price you want to sell at. It the price the bill of materials lets you sell at. $399 is the sweet spot, and Sony spec'd the Pro to hit it. Microsoft on the other hand decided to spec the Scorpio much higher than the Pro, which will push its price much higher than $399.

But a year later though. Actually it is more like 14 months. They could easily make a 6tf system with a good CPU and 12gigs of RAM with a 1-2tb for $399.99 in 14 months. Margins will be slim, but I think it is possible.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

You are forgetting the June 2015 Mincraft demo. Or how about the October 2015 Shoot the robots coming through yours walls demo.



How in the world would Scorpio go for $399 when it has better specs than the PS4 Pro and the Pro goes for $399? The Pro was priced at $499 just for using an upgraded CPU and Scorpio has much more than that. It would be VERY generous to say that Scorpio will be $499. After all, it's supposed to be able to play native 4K games which you currently need a pretty high end PC to do.

Once again this discussion is just like the ones we had when talking about HoloLens. I remember making this very same critique that it was simply going to be way too expensive. There was absolutely no way Microsoft could get it to do everything that was promised at an inexpensive price. History is repeating itself with Scorpio. It is going to be expensive to make, and Microsoft isn't going to lose many millions of dollars subsidizing it.



They aren't subsidizing the console anywhere near what they did last gen. They subsidized the Xbox One on something of the order of $10. What you are talking about for the Scorpio is on the order of early PS3 levels of subsidization of $100s of dollars. That ain't happening.

The GPU the Scorpio's is based on is $299 retail TODAY. By next November, it's not crazy to think that price comes down significantly for a manufacturer ordering millions of them. I don't think it's crazy at all to think MS will go $399 if they're willing to take a hit.

In fact, I'll be shocked if it's higher than $399.

 

[Chris1]

They aren't subsidizing the console anywhere near what they did last gen. They subsidized the Xbox One on something of the order of $10. What you are talking about for the Scorpio is on the order of early PS3 levels of subsidization of $100s of dollars. That ain't happening.

I think it's gonna be $499 so I agree with you, but you said they won't take a loss, they will and have been for 2 years basically, just not a very big one. But I'm pretty sure it's more than a $10 loss, they were giving consoles away like candy and even had xbox ones + tvs for $500, not $100's of dollars but I'd guess a good amount.

 

[Hawk269]

Yeah I've been saying similar. 6TF and 320GB bandwidth were just numbers they were throwing out there as a minimum baseline probably to call Sony out too.

My guess is, Microsoft wants this box to be the base model for a decade. In which case, it needs to be ridiculously powerful.

What would be ridiculously powerful though? 8tf GPU, 16 gigs of GDDR5x Ram, 2tb 7200rpm HDD, high end CPU??

I kind of agree that this far in advance, talking about E3 where they through out the 6tf GPU and 320gb memory bandwidth was them throwing out the minimum. Now that they know what the PS4 Pro has, do they save money and stick to a 6tf GPU or do they push the envelope and push for an even stronger GPU and other components? They are in an interesting position...they will be one year behind the competition, will a 1.8tf difference in the GPU (speaking GPU alone) be enough to distinguish between what they have and what the pro offers?

 

[captainraincoat]

Kinda fed up with MS hyping up something up that no one has seen and in theory doesn't exist. The cost will make or break it.

Yeah i mean who announces a console without actually showing a console these days

As long as its quiet...is not over 500..and has some decent titles at launch id be happy

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

What would be ridiculously powerful though? 8tf GPU, 16 gigs of GDDR5x Ram, 2tb 7200rpm HDD, high end CPU??

I kind of agree that this far in advance, talking about E3 where they through out the 6tf GPU and 320gb memory bandwidth was them throwing out the minimum. Now that they know what the PS4 Pro has, do they save money and stick to a 6tf GPU or do they push the envelope and push for an even stronger GPU and other components? They are in an interesting position...they will be one year behind the competition, will a 1.8tf difference in the GPU (speaking GPU alone) be enough to distinguish between what they have and what the pro offers?

No idea what they can achieve in a $399 box and what they're willing to lose to do it. I was merely speculating that they most likely want this thing to be the base for a long time. It needs to be powerful enough to handle new games at at least 1080/60 or 900/60 many years down the road.

 

[EventHorizon]

But a year later though. Actually it is more like 14 months. They could easily make a 6tf system with a good CPU and 12gigs of RAM with a 1-2tb for $399.99 in 14 months. Margins will be slim, but I think it is possible.

What?!? Yes it will be a year later. The PS4 Pro is releasing this November. Presumably the Scorpio will release around November next year. It'd have to to still be in 2017. If it released 14 months laters it'd be in 2018. Regardless, those extra 2 months aren't going to make that much of a difference in costs anyway.

Seriously, how much do you think prices are going to drop? The time frames you are talking about makes it seem like you think the Scorpio would be around $405, but then the price drops to make it $399. The reality is that the price would be starting out like something in the $499-$599 range.

 

[Warablo]

I guess 4K is a better bullet point.

I just want all the bells and whistles at 1080P and preferably 60FPS.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Just ignore the rest of my post and provide no evidence...

There is no quote from the AMD CEO, this was made up on a uncredited blog. The slide I posted is directly on about the Scorpio and incremental design wins for H1 2017 with no mention of the Pro.

Yea,there's really nothing backing that up. I strongly believe Scorpio is going to have Zen. Nothing else makes sense unless Zen gets a pretty serious delay. For Scorpio to not have a Zen based CPU, AMD would need to not have even the slightest chance of releasing a Zen based APU anytime in the Q1 2018 period. They would have to slip to Q2 2018 at best.

Project Scorpio will have Zen.

 

[cheezcake]

If it's native then that console is definitely not close to $400. They can't cheap out on a crap CPU. That or you're looking at some mediocre settings to hit that 4K benchmark.

I mean tbf that is what consoles have always done. Its not like the PS4 and XB1 run 1080p/900p maxed, they run at PC medium level settings on avg. No reason the to believe the Scorpio is going to change that.

What?!? Yes it will be a year later. The PS4 Pro is releasing this November. Presumably the Scorpio will release around November next year. It'd have to to still be in 2017. If it released 14 months laters it'd be in 2018. Regardless, those extra 2 months aren't going to make that much of a difference in costs anyway.

Seriously, how much do you think prices are going to drop? The time frames you are talking about makes it seem like you think the Scorpio would be around $405, but then the price drops to make it $399. The reality is that the price would be starting out like something in the $499-$599 range.

I think you're overestimating the cost difference, Scorpio isn't going to be some monumental game changer with an incredible CPU and GPU and HBM and so on. Its just going to be normal mid level components adjusted for 2017, id be willing to take a ban bet it's not over $499 no sweat. Tbh the PSpro seems to have a bit of a margin in that RRP, the GPU is adjusted for 2016 but everything else in the console is roughly the same. Hell the R9 480 which is a decent chunk faster than the PSpro gpu retails for $200 right now.

 

[EventHorizon]

The GPU the Scorpio's is based on is $299 retail TODAY. By next November, it's not crazy to think that price comes down significantly for a manufacturer ordering millions of them. I don't think it's crazy at all to think MS will go $399 if they're willing to take a hit.

In fact, I'll be shocked if it's higher than $399.

You are overestimating how much prices drop. A quick Google search gives the AMD Radeaon R9 390X as an equivalent video card. Just eyeballing its price history shows the card's price dropping maybe around 10% in a one year time span.

The PS4 Pro is selling for $399 in November. Assuming that 10% drop in price, that means that you think Microsoft could sell a Scorpio that can handle 4K native resolution games this November for around $443. Yea that ain't happening.

I think it's gonna be $499 so I agree with you, but you said they won't take a loss, they will and have been for 2 years basically, just not a very big one. But I'm pretty sure it's more than a $10 loss, they were giving consoles away like candy and even had xbox ones + tvs for $500, not $100's of dollars but I'd guess a good amount.

Microsoft was taking bigger losses on temporary sales. We are talking about the standard MSRP.

Btw as of March 2016 IHS calculated the bill of materials for the Xbox one at $300. Considering the console had a MSRP of $299 and retailers typically don't earn much profit on console hardware, they weren't losing that much money on the standard price.

The combined hardware and manufacturing cost of the new Xbox One S game console from Microsoft, the new analysis says, amounts to $324. That’s just $24 more than the most recent Xbox One teardown analysis conducted in March of this year

http://press.ihs.com/press-release/...icrosofts-xbox-one-s-brings-significant-value

 

[Liabe Brave]

There is no quote from the AMD CEO, this was made up on a uncredited blog.

No, it was not. I've actually explained this to you before in a different thread. As I said there, the report was not from the blog you think was the source. It's actually from www.computerbase.de, a large and long-running German IT site. Their original report states:

Zen-Kerne und neue Grafik als Semi-Custom-Lösung soll es nicht vor 2018 geben, deutete AMDs Chefin Lisa Su in kleiner Runde an.

They're saying here that Lisa Su "hinted" Zen APUs wouldn't come out before 2018. There's no direct quote, so I agree we can't take that conclusion as definitive. But it can't be entirely dismissed either. At the very least, contrary to your claims, it's not an uncredited report. It's a respectable source under Volker Risska's byline (he's the Platform Architecture editorial director for ComputerBase).

The slide I posted is directly on about the Scorpio and incremental design wins for H1 2017 with no mention of the Pro.

I never said it mentioned the Pro. I was addressing your other claim that the AMD presentation was exclusively about H1 2017. Here's another slide from the same deck:

It clearly says that Zen desktop will be H1 2017, and Zen notebook version in H2 2017. So the presentation isn't solely for H1, and anything in it about a Zen APU could similarly be after that timeframe.

For Scorpio to not have a Zen based CPU, AMD would need to not have even the slightest chance of releasing a Zen based APU anytime in the Q1 2018 period. They would have to slip to Q2 2018 at best.

This doesn't make sense. Scorpio is slated to go on sale in Q417, so it will need to start assembly in mid Q317. (Just as Xbox One and PS4 started production in late summer 2013, and PS4Pro started production late this summer.) If AMD don't have a Zen APU by mid Q317, Scorpio would have to be delayed.

I don't believe it's impossible for Scorpio to contain Zen, but I think it's naive to say it's a slamdunk certainty.

 

[Outrun]

I sure hope that these titles have HDR in them, because HDR is very important now.

 

[EventHorizon]

I think you're overestimating the cost difference, Scorpio isn't going to be some monumental game changer with an incredible CPU and GPU and HBM and so on. Its just going to be normal mid level components adjusted for 2017, id be willing to take a ban bet it's not over $499 no sweat. Tbh the PSpro seems to have a bit of a margin in that RRP, the GPU is adjusted for 2016 but everything else in the console is roughly the same. Hell the R9 480 which is a decent chunk faster than the PSpro gpu retails for $200 right now.

Considering I said the Scorpio would be $499-$599 I'd only take the bet if you thought the price was going to be less than $499 like many of the people I have been responding to. Some even think it's going to be $399, the same as the PS4 Pro this November. That's just crazy.

I'm basing estimates on the fact that Sony stated that the Pro would be $499 if they put in a better CPU. Considering Microsoft wants to do that and more is why I'm pretty confident that $499 will be the low price even taking into account a year's reduction in prices.

 

[Condom]

I sure hope that these titles have HDR in them, because HDR is very important now.

How is it important? Nobody has HDR TV's. Just like 4k it's still a niche feature.

They'll be much better off putting out 1080p @60fps titles with amazing graphics. With YouTube supporting 60fps now, mainstream gamers can see the smoothness before purchasing the game.

 

[ethomaz]

No, it was not. I've actually explained this to you before in a different thread. As I said there, the report was not from the blog you think was the source. It's actually from www.computerbase.de, a large and long-running German IT site. Their original report states:



They're saying here that Lisa Su "hinted" Zen APUs wouldn't come out before 2018. There's no direct quote, so I agree we can't take that conclusion as definitive. But it can't be entirely dismissed either. At the very least, contrary to your claims, it's not an uncredited report. It's a respectable source under Volker Risska's byline (he's the Platform Architecture editorial director for ComputerBase).


I never said it mentioned the Pro. I was addressing your other claim that the AMD presentation was exclusively about H1 2017. Here's another slide from the same deck:

It clearly says that Zen desktop will be H1 2017, and Zen notebook version in H2 2017. So the presentation isn't solely for H1, and anything in it about a Zen APU could similarly be after that timeframe.


This doesn't make sense. Scorpio is slated to go on sale in Q417, so it will need to start assembly in mid Q317. (Just as Xbox One and PS4 started production in late summer 2013, and PS4Pro started production late this summer.) If AMD don't have a Zen APU by mid Q317, Scorpio would have to be delayed.

I don't believe it's impossible for Scorpio to contain Zen, but I think it's naive to say it's a slamdunk certainty.

Let them believe and claim the Zen was confirmed for Scorpio. You won't change their minds.

 

[LukasTaves]

Just because at the time there weren't any decent looking 1080p/60fps racing games on console to compete in that category, but you could make the argument that games rendering at a lower resolution or with lower framerate looked much better because they didn't shoot for a PR metric instead they focused on overall image quality.

I am just afraid Microsoft will mandate all launch games have to render at 4k natively. This probably wasn't even a plan before the whole PS4 Pro debacle.

Imagine being a developer spending months finding the absolute best tradeoff of graphical effects and resolution to make your game look great, and suddenly an exec comes and forces you to priority resolution because it will be a marketing points against the PS4 Pro.

It is fucking bullshit.

edit: In fact, if these games drop AA altogether just to hit this metric, it would be fucking stupid.

For the record, I own a 28 inch 4k monitor, and past a certain resolution, perhaps 2k, I don't really care about jaggies; I prefer special effects, and obviously framerate above all else.

Game development is compromise, forza ever since 2 always target a flawless 60fps even if it comes at the expense of some effects, but they got around it, and now are pretty much the best among those.

As for 1st party games on Scorpio, albert penello pretty much said that ms designed Scorpio so it could run games at 4k with slightly better settings than xbone ate the same framerate. So, it's not ideal from a pure graphical standpoint, but ms 1st party output has been targeting other features at the expense of visuals for a while now (split screen and coop during 360 era and 60fps for their big hitters on xbone), so I guess they are okay to continue the trend with Scorpio.

And in my case, since I'm not planning on getting a 4k tv until I can find one reasonably priced with hdr and low input delay, I would prefer if they mandate ultra settings for all games at 1080p.

 

[anothertech]

Project Scorpio will have Zen.

That's quite a sure statement. Willing to make an avatar wager?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

How is it important? Nobody has HDR TV's. Just like 4k it's still a niche feature.

They'll be much better off putting out 1080p @60fps titles with amazing graphics. With YouTube supporting 60fps now, mainstream gamers can see the smoothness before purchasing the game.

The sort of customer who really wants an upgraded console probably is the most likely customer who will have a display to match it. With 1080p sets being phased out in favor of the newest standards, and all 4K sets above the low end heading toward universal HDR10 support, it's not going to be niche for very long. We know that 60fps is a low priority for publishers and developers who would rather throw more detail onscreen as it's more marketable a difference, but I think that whatever enhancements 4KHDR display owners are getting are sure to filter down to 1080p users as supersampled, nicer image quality forms on their sets.

 

[TrackZ]

Possibly. However, it's a year later so we have to consider economies of scale will at least marginally ameliorate the bill of materials problem.

Also, although no company seems willing to take a loss on hardware these days, MS is *far* more financially capable of doing so than Sony if need be.

MS has, at times, shown an amazing capacity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. But I think by now even the dumbest MS exec knows that anything above the $400 sweet spot is a non-starter for any kind of mainstream success. If they do start at $500-$600 that's a definite sign they're abdicating this gen and expecting the Scorpio to achieve niche success at best as a bridge to "next gen". Even the PS4 Pro, supposedly geared towards "hardcore gamers", hits that sweet spot. Sony learned their lesson after trying the PS3 at $600. After the Xbone launch debacle trying out $500 with similar results I'd expect Phil's common sense will prevail when it comes to internal launch price debates.

Edit: I won't be surprised to see the Xbone S drop to $199/$249/$299 for the 3 HDD SKUs w/ the Scorpio launching at $399/$449 for the 1TB/2TB SKUs, respectively.

I'd love to have $600 performance consoles on the market today along side $300 mainstream versions. Best of both worlds and everyone able to play together within their platform. Then update the high end every 2 years and make the new lower spec be the older high spec.

 

[TBiddy]

You can predict relative prices when you know the relative specs. The PS4 Pro is going for $399. Scorpio is spec'd to have better CPU, GPU, and memory along with a UHD drive. We know that it is targeted to game at a native 4K display. With all that, it is definitely going for a lot more than $399. For example we know that the Pro was priced was priced at $499 just for increasing the CPU over its current specs.

HoloLens absolutely is comparable to PSVR in the context that I used it. Microsoft tried to use it to undercut the PSVR since they did not have a VR offering. HoloLens is NOW aimed at enterprise users, but that is not how it was first promoted. Do you not remember the Minecraft demo? That was pure manufactured false hype just like Microsoft is doing now with Scorpio.

No, you can't start predicting prices of a product that you know nothing about. You don't know the specs, you don't know what comes with the Scorpio. Heck, you don't even know if it even exists right now. Add to that, that launch is over a year away, and the result is, that noone in this forum is qualified to talk about the price. My bet is that not even Microsoft knows what price they'll set.

HoloLens has absolutely nothing to do with PSVR. They aren't in the same ballpark, and to be honest, I'm surprised that you think HoloLens was created/shown in response to Morpheus.
The PSVR is tied to the Playstation and does one thing - plays games (and other entertainment).
The HoloLens is a stand-alone computer that costs around 10 times as much and is aimed directly at the enterprise. Sure, you can use it for gaming, but claiming that it's meant to eat PSVRs lunch is just nonsense.

If memory serves me, HoloLens was shown at Build first. Not E3. It's not a gaming device, and has nothing to do with the PSVR.

 

[leeh]

No, it was not. I've actually explained this to you before in a different thread. As I said there, the report was not from the blog you think was the source. It's actually from www.computerbase.de, a large and long-running German IT site. Their original report states:



They're saying here that Lisa Su "hinted" Zen APUs wouldn't come out before 2018. There's no direct quote, so I agree we can't take that conclusion as definitive. But it can't be entirely dismissed either. At the very least, contrary to your claims, it's not an uncredited report. It's a respectable source under Volker Risska's byline (he's the Platform Architecture editorial director for ComputerBase).


I never said it mentioned the Pro. I was addressing your other claim that the AMD presentation was exclusively about H1 2017. Here's another slide from the same deck:

It clearly says that Zen desktop will be H1 2017, and Zen notebook version in H2 2017. So the presentation isn't solely for H1, and anything in it about a Zen APU could similarly be after that timeframe.


This doesn't make sense. Scorpio is slated to go on sale in Q417, so it will need to start assembly in mid Q317. (Just as Xbox One and PS4 started production in late summer 2013, and PS4Pro started production late this summer.) If AMD don't have a Zen APU by mid Q317, Scorpio would have to be delayed.

I don't believe it's impossible for Scorpio to contain Zen, but I think it's naive to say it's a slamdunk certainty.

Oh right, so I'm going to take some 'hint' of something which AMD CEO has said without any direct quote of this 'hint'. Why would it not be included? What was this hint? It's open to any interpretation and will of been done so just to get clicks, it's crap. I've seen that article days ago.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise a console which has a large form factor is a super slim netbook. Even the picture is a bloody notebook for crying out load, the slide I actually posted contains a picture of the Scorpio APU render.

The desktop summit ridge production aligns directly with what was said on the Scorpio slides.

Let them believe and claim the Zen was confirmed for Scorpio. You won't change their minds.

When did I ever say it was confirmed, don't put words into my mouth.

 

[mike4001_]

How in the world would Scorpio go for $399 when it has better specs than the PS4 Pro and the Pro goes for $399? The Pro was priced at $499 just for using an upgraded CPU and Scorpio has much more than that. It would be VERY generous to say that Scorpio will be $499.

Because sooner or later all you guys have to understand that Scorpio comes out a year LATER than PS4 Pro.

And a performance increase of a factor of 1,4 in one year is very much possible a the same price.

It will be 399 or at maximum 449

 

[black070]

Microsoft's in a position to be reactionary and they're capitalising on it.. the only problem is it's all just talk until they put something on the table, they're not really turning the tide or pulling one up on the competition to anyone but the minority at the moment, and with it a year out, I don't see it having much impact when they do either.

 

[EvB]

But a year later though. Actually it is more like 14 months. They could easily make a 6tf system with a good CPU and 12gigs of RAM with a 1-2tb for $399.99 in 14 months. Margins will be slim, but I think it is possible.

Yeah , it definately is, the AMD APUs that are not a million miles of what the current gen consoles use are pennies now

AMD A10-7850K is like $120 to a consumer

 

[m23]

I'm excited as hell to see what this console can do, I'm just afraid of the price...especially as someone who lives in Canada.

 

[EvB]

I'm excited as hell to see what this console can do, I'm just afraid of the price...especially as someone who lives in Canada.

Why? are Canadians particuarly cowardly?

Or do the Canadian people take to the street in a violent rage when a game console price is announced, pillaging houses and murdering children?

 

[kazinova]

MS: "The Xbox One renders games sometimes at 1080p30 and sometimes at 900p60"

GAF: "You suck, that's not enough 'p'!!!"

...

MS: "We're making sure games on the Scorpio render at full 4K."

GAF: "Gosh this pursuit of pixels over IQ is frustrating"

...

MS: **gunshot**

GAF: "Yay, we win!"

 

[Liabe Brave]

I've seen that article days ago.

Then why did you say the info came from an "uncredited blog"? It's not from a blog, and the article has a byline.

Oh right, so I'm going to take some 'hint' of something which AMD CEO has said without any direct quote of this 'hint'. Why would it not be included? What was this hint? It's open to any interpretation and will of been done so just to get clicks, it's crap.

The reporter may not have been recording the conversation, and thus didn't provide a direct quote. Saying it's been done for clicks is a meaningless ad hominem. It's one sentence within a detailed report laying out all the info from the presentation. The article as a whole is not courting controversy.

I do agree that its indirect nature makes it open to interpretation. But I think it's important to note that your contrary position--that a Zen APU will be available by the middle of next year--is built on supposition and indirect evidence as well.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise a console which has a large form factor is a super slim netbook. Even the picture is a bloody notebook for crying out load, the slide I actually posted contains a picture of the Scorpio APU render.

You've missed the point again. I am not saying my slide is about Scorpio. I'm saying it talks about AMD Zen products into the second half of next year. Nothing explicit is said about what timeframe a Zen APU would fall in, but it could be after Scorpio production starts. Calling this deck a H1 2017 presentation, as you have, is misleading.

As for the slide you posted, yes that definitely shows Scorpio. But only as a subheading under a bullet point about increased revenue over the next several years. There is no mention of Zen.

 

[m23]

Why? are Canadians particuarly cowardly?

Or do the Canadian people take to the street in a violent rage when a game console price is announced, pillaging houses and murdering children?

Wait, what? I assume I'm missing a joke here or something.

 

[phil_t98]

MS: "The Xbox One renders games sometimes at 1080p30 and sometimes at 900p60"

GAF: "You suck, that's not enough 'p'!!!"

...

MS: "We're making sure games on the Scorpio render at full 4K."

GAF: "Gosh this pursuit of pixels over IQ is frustrating"

...

MS: **gunshot**

GAF: "Yay, we win!"

Quality post

Nobody has seen the spec or heard them but bashing is going on because they can

if the console isn't as good as we hope when it comes out then bash away but at least give them credit for trying to push it.
The PS4 PRO will take 1080p games and upscale and most seem ok with this, now Microsoft want to make a 4K native console and everybody is up in arms.

 

[VincentMatts]

Quality post

Nobody has seen the spec or heard them but bashing is going on because they can

if the console isn't as good as we hope when it comes out then bash away but at least give them credit for trying to push it.
The PS4 PRO will take 1080p games and upscale and most seem ok with this, now Microsoft want to make a 4K native console and everybody is up in arms.

Are you surprised? Its Microsoft, nothing they do is ever right. But when Sony does it, they get applause.

 

[Gestault]

Kinda fed up with MS hyping up something up that no one has seen and in theory doesn't exist. The cost will make or break it.

I completely agree that the marketability is down to the pricing, but it's obtuse acting as though advertising a product with its stats and features before launch is unreasonable because it "in theory doesn't exist." Unless you legitimately believe its a conspiracy, and that the hardware won't be released.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Because sooner or later all you guys have to understand that Scorpio comes out a year LATER than PS4 Pro.

And a performance increase of a factor of 1,4 in one year is very much possible a the same price.

It will be 399 or at maximum 449

And the parts that are possibly going to be used are NOT going to be a Year Old so this imaginary price of $399 is pretty much impossible. $499 and up is definitely what's going to happen here. A new CPU coming out in the same year of a newly launched console months earlier isn't going to drop from $399 to $199 in 5-6 months. I've never ever heard of a significant drop like that..

Quality post

Nobody has seen the spec or heard them but bashing is going on because they can

if the console isn't as good as we hope when it comes out then bash away but at least give them credit for trying to push it.
The PS4 PRO will take 1080p games and upscale and most seem ok with this, now Microsoft want to make a 4K native console and everybody is up in arms.

Someone mentioned that Sony trying to hide that the Pro not having Native 4k even tho in the same article, the developer says the game is not native 4K,was Sony learning from their friend Sean Murray.

No one is in "arms" about MS, and only reading something with personal bias will do that to you. The problem here is, promising more than you can chew, number one which is what MS has already done with the Xbox 1 and price... Which is a huge factor when talking about native 4k that $1000+ high end PCs are able to do.. So without any hardcore specs of this thing.. It's hard to take this at face value if we have nothing to go by but speculation. That's not putting up "arms". The system isn't out, many people are already going wild off their rockers assuming this system will be able to do 4k/60FPS etc etc etc.. Obviously, that's a problem. So Idk what you are talking about but there is nothing here that can't be questioned.

Are you surprised? Its Microsoft, nothing they do is ever right. But when Sony does it, they get applause.

You are childish.

 

[oSoLucky]

Quality post

Nobody has seen the spec or heard them but bashing is going on because they can

if the console isn't as good as we hope when it comes out then bash away but at least give them credit for trying to push it.
The PS4 PRO will take 1080p games and upscale and most seem ok with this, now Microsoft want to make a 4K native console and everybody is up in arms.

Are you surprised? Its Microsoft, nothing they do is ever right. But when Sony does it, they get applause.

So I take it that neither of you have read GAF at all the last few weeks? Implying that there's an inherent Sony bias is a stretch especially in light of everything since the Pro reveal.