.....
Well, judging by how they totally miscalculated their OWN development process and absolutely totally miscalculated how public would embrace WiiU, I'm not sure.
They can't take themselves seriously. How can they take others seriously?
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Miyamoto "Wii U development requires twice the amount of human resources than before"
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
.....
Well, judging by how they totally miscalculated their OWN development process and absolutely totally miscalculated how public would embrace WiiU, I'm not sure.
They can't take themselves seriously. How can they take others seriously?
I don't think you understood the point I was making. It should be obvious the price of the PS4 was not influenced by the competition's price....they learned of it on the same day! So yeah they obviously won't factor an unknown in to their own plans. They have however gone with a dev friendly, non-exotic architecture and a consumer friendly price tag. This means they did learn from their own outcomes as well as their competitions in the current gen.
Development is a different story. Nintendo had a whole gen..a rather long one at that, to take note of the challenges of HD game development. Not only from the competition but also from third party publishers/devs. They were known factors. Higher budgets, staff expansions etc etc. Nintendo had plenty of time. Not like they had all their resources for wii games towards the end of the gen either.
Canis lupus
Member
MS and Sony found that out about 7 8 years ago. It sounds like they never anticipated this until they got actual devkits on their desks.
Acquiescence
Member
That brutal first post. Nintendo's transition to HD has not been smooth to say the least, not to mention belated.
Zoramon089
Banned
Well, there's calculating and then there's doing. You can do as many tests and estimations as you want but until you actually start working you won't know how long it'll take. Have none of you guys ever had to work on a long term project? Do you guys know why game development has crunch time? Because estimates only go so far
Oh please. What does either of that have to do with Sony or Microsoft whatsoever? I'm genuinely curious.
Miscalculating Wii U's sales projections has jack to do with Sony and Microsoft. If Nintendo didn't take Sony seriously they wouldn't have dropped the price of the 3DS when the Vita was announced at the same price.
And not take themselves seriously? That's just straight trolling, dude. Considering that they dropped two of the three highest rated games of this past generation and have massively expanded their own internal dev resources I think they take themselves pretty fucking seriously. Come on now.
Yeah it's a fun game, shame it's hidden away on the Windows Phone store so more people can't experience it.
And I think Nintendo just wants to be able to churn out fun little Game Pad games.
DragonSworne
Banned
Nintendo didn't see this coming because you have Miyamoto as general manager of all of the games development at Nintendo. Do you really think a a man in his late 50s who knows little of technology and barely follows the rest of the industry would have seen this coming?
For us normal forum/message board posters, this is obvious. But for someone like Miyamoto, this is a shocking revelation.
Nintendo needs new management desperately.
For us normal forum/message board posters, this is obvious. But for someone like Miyamoto, this is a shocking revelation.
Nintendo needs new management desperately.
The Dutch Slayer
Member
That is why a lot of people asked if nintendo as a company was ready for HD.
Because it took a lot of companies some time to learn to adopt to that, and nintendo will to.
Because it took a lot of companies some time to learn to adopt to that, and nintendo will to.
1.) You still haven't shown how Nintendo's INTERNAL PLANNING, means that they didn't take their competition SERIOUSLY. There's no correlation here whatsoever.
2.) I think people took Miyamoto's comments about HD development and have completely overblown the issue. Nintendo's first party output for the rest of this year going into 2014 is pretty stacked. And even taking away stuff like Pikmin 3 which uses some Wii assets, their first party stuff is stacking up to be pretty good from a quality and quantity perspective. Didn't he JUST say also that Nintendo struggled initially but now they've caught up and they're doing okay with HD development now?
My issue is with the notion that Nintendo doesn't take their competition seriously. It's completely erroneous and not based on anything whatsoever.
Uh.
Let's see.
First, nintendo launched WiiU with absolutely NOTHING compelling that grabs people attention. They had year head start and they counted on gimmick thingy and expected it will grab public's attention.
That's weak. That's miscalculation. That's just straight out no strategy at all. They knew PS4 and Xbone will launch a year later and had to get the head start. Instead, they were banking on the Wii brand alone.
That's example of not taking themselves seriously. That's banking on the luck, or chance.
Second, they had chance to make games for HD generation head start. Support for Wii from nintendo itself dried up after 2010. They had like, what, 3 years for research and development.
No one can deny that they seriously underestimated HD development and seriously overestimated their own capability. If one takes seriously, one take a deep, hard look at themselves and see what is going on. I don't see the evidence that they did that.
Because of that MK8 is coming next year. That should have been a launch title.
I think that's enough for now.
DragonSworne
Banned
From Iwata saying he doesn't care what the competition is doing to Miyamoto saying he couldn't see himself liking to make the games shown at E3 to Tekada constantly designing underpowered system, I would say that not only does Nintendo not take their competition seriously, they do not take their business partners seriously.
This is 3 of the top honchos running all of Nintendo just saying some ignorant shit about the industry over and over again.
Alright, I got some things to say.
1) The Nintendo Wii had only 88 megabytes of memory and 3 megabytes of texture memory (according to Wikipedia). The Nintendo Wii U has 2 gigabytes of memory. That's 21 times more RAM.
2) The Nintendo Wii had a single-core Power PC processor clocked at 729 MHz. The Wii U has a tri-core Power PC process clocked at 1.24 GHz.
3) The Nintendo Wii had a GPU clocked at 243 MHz. The Wii U has a GPU clocked at 550 MHz.
I'm not an expert, but this is a significant jump in hardware specifications.
If Nintendo developers were able to accomplish this on a Wii:
Then imagine what they can accomplish with 21 times more RAM with a tri-core CPU and a better GPU than what's in the 360 and PS3.
It's also easy to understand why that major ramp up in hardware power would throw Nintendo by surprise. They needed more resources to take advantage of the console. They're addressing that now and I think, based on what I've seen, that they're doing a good job.
They'll improve even more with the next batch of games.
1) The Nintendo Wii had only 88 megabytes of memory and 3 megabytes of texture memory (according to Wikipedia). The Nintendo Wii U has 2 gigabytes of memory. That's 21 times more RAM.
2) The Nintendo Wii had a single-core Power PC processor clocked at 729 MHz. The Wii U has a tri-core Power PC process clocked at 1.24 GHz.
3) The Nintendo Wii had a GPU clocked at 243 MHz. The Wii U has a GPU clocked at 550 MHz.
I'm not an expert, but this is a significant jump in hardware specifications.
If Nintendo developers were able to accomplish this on a Wii:
Then imagine what they can accomplish with 21 times more RAM with a tri-core CPU and a better GPU than what's in the 360 and PS3.
It's also easy to understand why that major ramp up in hardware power would throw Nintendo by surprise. They needed more resources to take advantage of the console. They're addressing that now and I think, based on what I've seen, that they're doing a good job.
They'll improve even more with the next batch of games.
this is how it's always been for EVERY generation. the newer one always requires more manpower than the older one....derp. there is no revelation here.
that being said, nintendo sorely underestimated the growing pains of HD development and they should have been a lot more prepared.
did they not consult with anyone re:HD gaming in the past 6 years?
that being said, nintendo sorely underestimated the growing pains of HD development and they should have been a lot more prepared.
did they not consult with anyone re:HD gaming in the past 6 years?
I just think its unnaceptable for a company like Nintendo to constantly release statements like this.
"We need more time, please understand!"
"We underestimated the man power it takes to make HD!"
Great....
So when we get Mario Kart 8, it will be just as desolate as MK7 as far as features go. Seriously, when I started up MK7 on 3DS and saw the menu options.. I litterally thought I had a demo verison. 2 modes, no variety.
This is what we will have to accept with any future WiiU games as well. They wont be putting time into features and extras for their games when they have to spend most of their time focusing on this HD transformation.
Enough excuses, Nintendo. Youre making it extremely hard to defend.
Get rid of the old geezers stuck in 1995 and hire some young fresh blood that is willing to take risks and work their asses off.
"We need more time, please understand!"
"We underestimated the man power it takes to make HD!"
Great....
So when we get Mario Kart 8, it will be just as desolate as MK7 as far as features go. Seriously, when I started up MK7 on 3DS and saw the menu options.. I litterally thought I had a demo verison. 2 modes, no variety.
This is what we will have to accept with any future WiiU games as well. They wont be putting time into features and extras for their games when they have to spend most of their time focusing on this HD transformation.
Enough excuses, Nintendo. Youre making it extremely hard to defend.
Get rid of the old geezers stuck in 1995 and hire some young fresh blood that is willing to take risks and work their asses off.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Nintendo sold the most software, hardware, and made the most money with their previous console. What does it take to win generation if that is not enough in your opinion? Generally, a company will become arrogant over time after experiencing that level of success. Sony just went through that. Microsoft hasn't even reached that level of success and they carry themselves as if they've made money and sold the most. I'm personally not surprised.
No one should have been more prepared for HD development than Nintendo. They had the opportunity to observe the growing pains developers went through this generation, all while stacking paper to the ceiling thanks to the Wii and DS. To think they spent all that time in their bubble, resting on their laurels is pathetic. There are no excuses for this. All of this could have been fucking avoided if they observed other developers and taken measures early. Nintendo should have emerged next-gen standing on a mountain of corpses, reaping all of the benefits and learned knowledge of the generation. Instead we got the Wii-U . . .
Can Crusher
Banned
I'm glad that they put the hardware out there on the shelves before they knew what they were doing on the software side.
Great planning.
Great planning.
You know, it's funny how it seemed they understood this.
One of the basic premises of the Wii was that the industry wasn't ready to transition to HD and that they should slow down and work their way up more gradually.
I think in hindsight that view was absolutely correct, given the financial calamity of the last 5 years. Which makes Nintendo's inability to prepare properly all the more mysterious, given that they were the ones who sounded the alarm bell in the first place.
redmetal86
Member
EDIT: Nevermind
fredrancour
Member
It happened because as soon as the wii's install base got built up they started messing around instead of capitalizing on their advantage. It's really disappointing.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
This was expected to happen.
Iwata made a mistake for not embracing HD development for Wii and for supporting his thesis that graphics doesn't matter and can't improve no more. It may had generated record short-term profits for Nintendo but, as a long term strategy, was a bad decision and they're struggling to fix this now, which are the seeds from Iwata's past decisions.
What Nintendo was doing during Wii's final years? Aren't they were aware Wii U would be HD and didn't prepare themselves to jump into this level of development? They decided to left the preparations for the last minute? This is an indication that Iwata's slow response to the market fucked up their development schedule.
Iwata made a mistake for not embracing HD development for Wii and for supporting his thesis that graphics doesn't matter and can't improve no more. It may had generated record short-term profits for Nintendo but, as a long term strategy, was a bad decision and they're struggling to fix this now, which are the seeds from Iwata's past decisions.
What Nintendo was doing during Wii's final years? Aren't they were aware Wii U would be HD and didn't prepare themselves to jump into this level of development? They decided to left the preparations for the last minute? This is an indication that Iwata's slow response to the market fucked up their development schedule.
Quadraphonic
Member
Chittagong
Gold Member
Well yeah, it 2 screens innit
Fried Food
Banned
One group of people to propose new and creative ideas and another to shoot them down and trot out the mascots.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
What the hell were their developers even doing the last two years of the Wii U?
Everyone partying?
Everyone partying?
1. ugh I don't understand what you are going on about. The evidence is right in front of you! it's called the WiiU. The development troubles, third party troubles, months of no software releases, Nintendo network related complaints, marketing etc etc makes the case for me. What's your argument against it exactly? And please don't refer to PR
2. I don't think this is what you could call a 'stacked' line up. I think you are purposefully ignoring the amount of time they had to prepare for this. It's bad enough they ditched the wii support wise towards the last few years of it's console life, they had that whole generation to prepare for this. They had the best chance to come out swinging for next gen. But as we can clearly see that was not the case. And as for doing 'fine' now...I will wait to see the results because Nintendo PR says a lot of things that turns out to be nothing but fluff when it comes to the WiiU.
I don't see why you would have an issue with this when we actually see it unfolding right before our eyes. IF they took the competition seriously the wiiU would be in a much better state. Fact of the matter is they though lightning will strike twice and went with a wii like approach. Such a thing is high risk high reward and it has come to bite them in the ass.
They are over 6 months behind schedule. It happens to the best, look at Rockstar with GTA5. The good news is they now seem to have a steady output of games to release for the next 9 months. It cost them a negative momentum, loss of some 3rd party support and bad to terrible press. But now they're ready. This console needs and deserves a relaunch.
Vermillion
Banned
Because Nintendo is constantly announcing all the things they got wrong or the things that they've supposedly learn from with no end. And a lot of the time it's the same mistake multiple times, like droughts. They learned with every console what they need to do to avoid the droughts on the previous system. And they keep apologizing and apologizing, and promising they'll do better. Over time, it just looks like bullshit.
purnoman3000
Member
"Please forgive us..... the elephant just woke up"
.
.
Y'know, with that giant warchest they accumulated during the Wii's money printing years. Oh, but that would have required some forward thinking.
metalslimer
Member
It really seems like Nintendo thought the Wii could last for a lot longer than it did and were thrown for a complete loop that it crashed. Now the company has grown a lot from pre DS days, but the thing people have to realize that the jump for a company making games for N64 level technology and technology based on the gamecube days to above PS3/360 level hardware and dealing with the 3DS at the same time is a massive jump that Nintendo wasn't ready for. So people do seem to think that Nintendo hired no one when they certainly did, but it was clearly not enough and with the split focus on the 3DS makes it that much harder and if Nintendo doesn't do something it'll get worse when they have to start making HD games for their handheld as well.
there is so much shoehorning this comment to fit a narrative around here that this thread is dead impossible to read. he said they may have underestimated, which means they had an estimation originally, so they were obviously preparing for this. somehow this translates into nintendo had their hands over their ears the past 6 years or something. he said they needed to double their manforce, maybe they only predicted they needed to increase it by + 50%, maybe +75%, maybe even 90%. even a small difference like that could cause delays.
Sorry but with 6 years of experience of all the others development teams around the world (they were the only one being behind) and after increased capitals this stuff is absolutely unacceptable.
They deserve all the badmouthing about this.
test_account
XP-39C²
Which features were cut and how do we know that Nintendo didnt cut anything?
At least Nintendo uses the excuse to explain delays, not cut features.
It's quite ironic that the company that learned the most was fucking Sony of all companies. They let a American with strong development team realtionships who knows his shit be the lead architect without much resistance for the ps4. They started as early as 2008 listening to third parties and their own development teams on how the system should be structured (RAM, arcetecture, power, controller,ect) and of almost all accounts have been delivered. And this is after years f them not listening to anyone but themselves and third parties can attest to this. During this they had to make hard as shit desisions ( choosing gddr5 when at that time there was no way to fit 8GB, choosing a unified pool of memory vs split when the latter would have been easier to produce, ect) but at the end they chose what was best to fit their number one goal, being the most dev friendly console. Of course their are some issues (launche lineup is not that good, multiplayer pay wall, ect) and the console could still bomb like the wiiu but they have a clear vision for ps4, Nintendo does not have one for the WiiU.
I think he's comparing it to the explanation Squeenix gave when people whined about no cities in FFXIII.
secretanchitman
Member
Sorry Nintendo, but your excuses don't work anymore. You were resting on your laurels and didn't do anything to compensate for HD. You had years to figure out what to do and now you have your work cut out for you. The beating you are taking is well deserved from the public.
It's getting tough for anyone to defend the Wii U until some quality games come out, and even your popular franchises are looking a bit stale (Mario in particular).
Don't get me wrong however, I'm still buying a Wii U, even though it is just for Zelda and Smash Bros.
It's getting tough for anyone to defend the Wii U until some quality games come out, and even your popular franchises are looking a bit stale (Mario in particular).
Don't get me wrong however, I'm still buying a Wii U, even though it is just for Zelda and Smash Bros.
i didn't say they didn't deserve criticism. i meant more like if you think that "welcome to 2006" or "what the hell were you doing all of this time" is an accurate response to this then you just didn't try to understand what they were trying to say with this.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
It's not that ironic; Sony lost a shitton of market share and money with the PS3 at first and had to make a huge concentrated effort just to turn the ship around and make it profitable again. It'd be weirder if they hadn't learned their lesson on just about every front you listed this gen.
I like Iwata for the most part, but I really hope a similar turn-around in attitude happens when Nintendo develops a new console.
Schnozberry
Member
Underestimating the demands of HD development was something that everyone did. I think they didn't learn from everybody else's failures due to a mix of their own pride and just not paying close enough attention to what their competition was doing.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. It's lucky they've got all that money from the Wii era which they could invest in tech and staff to prepare for this three or four years ago.
Oh, what's that? They've *only just* began talking about increasing the size of their studios...?! Fuck's sake Nintendo, you really are stupid at times for such a clever company.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Human resources...
Nintendo = Soylent Green ?
Nintendo = Soylent Green ?
In a general sense there is nothing wrong with missing estimates occasionally. I mean, part of what separates smart companies from less intelligent ones is the ability to anticipate future events, but even the best mess up sometimes.
The reason this oversight by Nintendo is particularly galling, however, is because of two factors:
1) Nintendo called it. In 2005, let alone 2006. It was one of the primary reasons they went with the Wii in the first place! "Hey guys," said Nintendo, "these development costs are getting way out of hand. Maybe we should slow it down and develop our systems more gradually." They were absolutely right. So why, if they could see the problems HD development could cause in 2005, could they not expect it in 2013?
2) Nintendo now has lots of empirical evidence in front of them to show them just how brutal the transition will be. Other companies may not have been as smart as Nintendo in 2005, but they didn't have a lot of examples to look to because HD development was still on the horizon, a thing of the future. By contrast, 2013 Nintendo had about 7 years of evidence to look back on -- to see the losses, to see the struggles, to see the closing studios -- which should have made it pretty clear what was going on.
So even if Nintendo somehow forgot their own wisdom from 2005, the painful 8 years for HD consoles between then and now surely should have reminded them. If you're heading up the plate without a helmet and you get hit on the head, that was pretty dumb, but perhaps you didn't think the pitcher you were facing was going to lose control. But if you go up to the plate without a helmet and also you already know the last 2 guys that came to the plate were hit right in the head, then you aren't just dumb, you're really dumb.
Buggy Loop
Member
Some of the comments in here simply show the ignorance of the real corporate world. You think building their gigantic new HQ would happen like a mushroom poping out of the ground? I work in an engineering department, these things, from the first idea, to have the go ahead with the start of the project, to have building plans in your hands, approved by all officials including the goverment, all the way to the first shovel hitting the ground... It takes a lot of time, the kind that probably started at least half a decade ago for such a project.
So yes, they knew it was coming, is it less of a shock to them? Probably not, but they are not starting from scratch. X's graphic engine and state of showing as it is now is more than enough to tell me they R&D for HD engine a while ago, most 3rd party devs dont show footage until 2 years into the project, Nintendo is more conservative than that by all indications.
They will be more prepared than the majority of this last gen's devs at least, sure they are late you will say, but they wont be running around like chickens without heads like most devs did ( and most didnt make it ).
So yes, they knew it was coming, is it less of a shock to them? Probably not, but they are not starting from scratch. X's graphic engine and state of showing as it is now is more than enough to tell me they R&D for HD engine a while ago, most 3rd party devs dont show footage until 2 years into the project, Nintendo is more conservative than that by all indications.
They will be more prepared than the majority of this last gen's devs at least, sure they are late you will say, but they wont be running around like chickens without heads like most devs did ( and most didnt make it ).
No, but it shouldn't take 8 years, either.
So 2008? Okay, why on earth was Nintendo not reacting in 2008? I mean, they had already explicitly stated that they knew how bad the transition to HD was going to be (again, one of their primary justifications for sticking with PS2-esque graphics with the Wii), and even if they forgot that lesson somehow, by 2008 the painful costs of HD development were clear: Sony, Microsoft, and EA were all bleeding billions at that time.
Why would they not have gotten started in 2008? Why did they wait until 3-4 years later, at the end of the Wii's lifespan?
It think its was a matter of then counting on the WiiU's name alone carrying the brand for the first fical year while they scrambled to save the 3DS from what they perceived to be the inevitable dead of it and potentially all the coming portables. Theres obviously some misguided notions for that theory, but I just don't picture them drinking mojitos in a yact this last two years.