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[JaseC]

he is proposing to do what Paypal often does in these situations and then everyone rags on them

This thread isn't very large:

Developers are paid monthly, so at the very least Valve could offer a small window of opportunity. See: GOG's 30-day refund guarantee. Additionally, Valve does allow refunds on game pre-orders, some of which are available to purchase months ahead of release, such as The Witcher 3, and there's no time limit on this aside from the obvious requirement that it be done before release.

Edit: It's also worth noting that Steam's automatic refund feature refunds the cost to your Steam Wallet, so Valve could restrict Early Access refunds to this process, in doing so ensuring that the money it's returning will be put back into Steam.

The approach I propose with my edit is very much an acceptable compromise: users get their money back in some form and Valve doesn't need to worry about it being spent elsewhere.

 

[More_Badass]

Wait, you had faith in early access in first place?

tsk tsk tsk

Everyone knew it was a question of time, not a "maybe", for this to happen.

Sure.

Don't Starve, Infested Planet, Secrets of Raetikon, Drunken Robot Pornography, Doorkickers, Prison Architect, Sir You Are Being Hunted, Assault Android Cactus, Betrayer, Broforce, Divinity Original Sin, and more prove that Early Access works

The assholes who abuse it or abandon their game don't diminish the work and efforts of the developers that actually care about their game and community

 

[Moipa]

The game sounded cool, but where was the time that these things where just free mods. As great as kickstarter and indy's are, game creating by amateurs out of love and passion is gone.

Unfortunately a lot of them are searching for a cool idea, creating buzz and hype in the hope of getting rich. It is really sad that these things pretend to go against the stream of commercialization and big company's. But it is just the commercializing of every aspect of gaming.

 

[Compsiox]

I have bought many Early Access games. I regret buying very few but when I do it's for good reason.

I am extremely disappointed.

 

[Messofanego]

Sure.

Don't Starve, Infested Planet, Secrets of Raetikon, Drunken Robot Pornography, Doorkickers, Prison Architect, Sir You Are Being Hunted, Assault Android Cactus, Betrayer, Broforce, Divinity Original Sin, and more prove that Early Access works

The assholes who abuse it or abandon their game don't diminish the work and efforts of the developers that actually care about their game and community

Good post.

I need to give Lichdom Battlemage a go again.

 

[bengraven]

Sure.

Don't Starve, Infested Planet, Secrets of Raetikon, Drunken Robot Pornography, Doorkickers, Prison Architect, Sir You Are Being Hunted, Assault Android Cactus, Betrayer, Broforce, Divinity Original Sin, and more prove that Early Access works

The assholes who abuse it or abandon their game don't diminish the work and efforts of the developers that actually care about their game and community

Should be in the OP.

 

[JaseC]

You should make a petition at whitehouse.gov.

Haha, I'll just wait for the ACCC lawsuit to reach its end.

Should be in the OP.

It wouldn't change much. Games that fail Early Access make the news but you seldom hear about the ones that graduate, so naturally there's a visible narrative that Early Access is a bad thing. I think the program has, by and large, been successful, but as per my quoted post above I do think Valve should offer a bit of a lifeline.

 

[eznark]

Sure.

Don't Starve, Infested Planet, Secrets of Raetikon, Drunken Robot Pornography, Doorkickers, Prison Architect, Sir You Are Being Hunted, Assault Android Cactus, Betrayer, Broforce, Divinity Original Sin, and more prove that Early Access works

The assholes who abuse it or abandon their game don't diminish the work and efforts of the developers that actually care about their game and community

The best golf game of all time, The Golf Club.

 

[spwolf]

This thread isn't very large:



The approach I propose with my edit is very much an acceptable compromise: users get their money back in some form and Valve doesn't need to worry about it being spent elsewhere.

i read this but that doesnt make sense... when was this guy paid for that first month where most of the orders came from?

So how do you propose Valve to refund you - from their own money? You want them to guarantee the product? They will simply cancel the program.

 

[ScaryMovies]

There's no word yet from Valve (or indeed the dev), although I firmly believe refunds should be offered on Early Access titles not only in fringe cases like this but as a matter of general policy -- titles in active development, by their very nature, often have an uncertain future.

Which is something you are aware of when purchasing Early Access titles, and is the exact reason why you should not get a refund. You are taking a risk. You are using your money on an unfinished game, and nowhere are you guaranteed that the early access title will ever turn in to a finished game.

 

[JaseC]

i read this but that doesnt make sense... when was this guy paid for that first month where most of the orders came from?

So how do you propose Valve to refund you - from their own money? You want them to guarantee the product? They will simply cancel the program.

Yes, in some cases the refunds would come out of Valve's pocket due to the payment schedule (edit: but this could be changed), however the money would have to be spent on Steam as the automatic refund process is limited to Steam Wallet, meaning Valve would see the money again in due time. And again, Valve does oblige refund requests on pre-orders provided the request is actioned before release, some of which are available to purchase months in advance.

Which is something you are aware of when purchasing Early Access titles, and is the exact reason why you should not get a refund. You are taking a risk. You are using your money on an unfinished game, and nowhere are you guaranteed that the early access title will ever turn in to a finished game.

As a point of fact, Valve does step in and offer refunds when a developer lies about the game's development roadmap, such as was the case with Earth: Year 2066. Coupled with my response above, I don't think offering some insurance against Early Access's potential hazards is a tall order.

 

[spwolf]

Yes, in some cases the refunds would come out of Valve's pocket due to the payment schedule, however the money would have to be spent on Steam as the automatic refund process is limited to Steam Wallet, meaning Valve would see the money again in due time. And again, Valve does oblige refund requests on pre-orders provided the request is actioned before release, some of which are available to purchase months in advance.

yeah, thats not going to happen - you can sugar coat it all you want but basically you want Valve to guarantee these products, which is impossible... so basically you want Early Access program to be cancelled.

It does not mater if refunds go to Valve, they still have to pay out this money to devs.

Same goes for kickstarter, if they had to guarantee that the product will see light of the day, they would never exist.

 

[JDSN]

Well, this is what happens when you give cash to a guy whose name sounds really close to "Fedora" .

 

[Ingueferroque]

They used that name? Wow.

I feel sorry for the backers.

 

[JaseC]

yeah, thats not going to happen - you can sugar coat it all you want but basically you want Valve to guarantee these products, which is impossible... so basically you want Early Access program to be cancelled.

I'm saying that Valve should offer some protection against fringe cases like this.

It does not mater if refunds go to Valve, they still have to pay out this money to devs.

It's not dissimilar, conceptually, to offering refunds on pre-orders (edit: if Valve changed its payment schedule). If Valve's worried that every user and their dog would run for a refund whenever the game changes with a patch, then impose a 30-day window like GOG or add conditions like EA (e.g. x amount of time between patches or y amount of time without an updated development roadmap), which is all I'm asking.

 

[spwolf]

I'm saying that Valve should offer some protection against fringe cases like this.



It's not dissimilar, conceptually, to offering refunds on pre-orders. If Valve's worried that every user and their dog would run for a refund whenever the game changes with a patch, then impose a 30-day window like GOG or add a few conditions like EA (e.g. x amount of time between patches or y amount of time without an updated development roadmap).

It is not similar to refunds on pre-orders - Valve gets that money back from the publishers, if it ever even pays them out in the first place (before delivery).

As I said, this would mean that Valve would cancel the Early Access and Kickstarter would cease to exist.

 

[Nabs]

The Jig is up.

 

[Ramenman]

Cue "and this is why Early Access shouldn't exist" posts.

When the real message is "this is why you shouldn't buy early access from just about anyone".

Players are learning the hard way that even when you have a bunch of different dinosaurs running around playable dudes and some sort of combat, you're still very very far away from having a game.

And that just because you already went all the way there doesn't mean you'll be able to finish (and this might not even be a money probleme here).

And that kickstarter money is nothing if not well managed afterwards. Etc.

 

[drotahorror]

I feel sorry for those who raised the 114k for the initial Kickstarter.

Why?

Everyone, including myself, know the risks of backing a game that's not done or even in development yet.

 

[mclem]

It's not dissimilar, conceptually, to offering refunds on pre-orders. If Valve's worried that every user and their dog would run for a refund whenever the game changes with a patch, then impose a 30-day window like GOG or add conditions like EA (e.g. x amount of time between patches or y amount of time without an updated development roadmap).

Except at this point, Early Access money has been spent. Preorder money has not. That's a significant point.

 

[JaseC]

It is not similar to refunds on pre-orders - Valve gets that money back from the publishers, if it ever even pays them out in the first place (before delivery).

Yes, Valve does pay out pre-orders. Sega sued THQ as it didn't pay to Sega what it'd received from Valve during Company of Heroes 2's pre-order period under the THQ label.

As I said, this would mean that Valve would cancel the Early Access and Kickstarter would cease to exist.

If offering refunds would be so disastrous even if they were offered under only certain conditions, then how is GOG still in business with its 30-day refund guarantee? I think GOG's policy shows that you can throw your users a lifeline for use in certain scenarios if you plan accordingly.

Except at this point, Early Access money has been spent. Preorder money has not. That's a significant point.

Yes, Valve receives money back from publishers for cancelled pre-orders, but if the window is aligned such that refunds must be actioned before a certain date, then the money would return to the user before it's sent to the developer/publisher.

Edit: I admit that what I propose would take some doing, assuming for the moment that Valve pays developers/publishers at a particular point each month (e.g. I would assume that GOG changed its payment schedule such that payments are sent 31 days after purchase rather than in a lump sum once a month, which in turn offers users a 30-day window in which to receive a refund). I've clarified my original post accordingly.

Edit edit: I'll also clarify that I'm not demanding that Valve should make the necessary changes -- as I said before, I think the Early Access program has been largely successful and, much like Kickstarter, a bit of due diligence can go a long way towards preventing nasty surprises. I just think it would be ideal if users were offered some protection against fringe cases like this, much like how GOG offers some protection against fringe cases of uncooperative games. I don't think it's unreasonable and I also don't think it'd spell the doom of Early Access or crowdfunding solutions -- the games that hit Early Access but don't make it across the finish line are the exception, not the rule.

Edit edit edit: Uh, I just realise I put "not only in fringe cases like this" in the OP. I've edited it out and clarified that part a little, and I tweaked my earlier posts to avoid further confusion. Sorry, it was midnight when I made this thread.

 

[Robert J. Sullivan]

Cue "and this is why Early Access shouldn't exist" posts.

buckle up, it's going to be a wild ride

 

[grandwizard]

Reputation is everything in Early Access. Random nobodies have to have exceptional levels of content to prove themselves, whereas someone like Klei who has a good track record in early access already is much more likely to get my money.

Stop blaming the business model and do some research.

 

[LycanXIII]

I backed this on KS. Rewards were supposed to go out back in March. I got the "game," but nothing else. :/ (only put $35 on it.)

 

[Messofanego]

Gamespot put up a news story on it.

Make me Quiet if old

Source: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/valve-pulls-dinosaur-game-from-steam-early-access-/1100-6422063/

The Stomping Land is yet another game in the increasingly popular multiplayer survival genre, with this one attempting to set itself apart by being set in a world rife with dinosaurs. (Check out our Early Access review here.) It was successfully funded through Kickstarter in June 2013, receiving more than $114,000 in pledges despite only asking for $20,000. The game landed on Steam this past May, being sold as an Early Access game for $25 as developer SuperCrit (led by developer Alex Fundora) continued to work on it.

None of the official outlets for the game--its Facebook, Twitter, forums, and Kickstarter page--have been updated in months. The developer's website is effectively nonexistent.

An online petition went live in July asking that the game be removed from the Steam store and that Kickstarter backers and Steam buyers be refunded. As of this writing, it's received 2,816 signatures.

In July, the game's public relations person posted on the Steam forums, saying they were done working on the game. They claimed their contract had expired on May 31, but that they continued on due to a "desire to see this game succeed."

Didn't know about the petition thing.

 

[ppor]

Thanks Mrs. Obama

 

[pinkurocket]

Kickstarter strikes again.

 

[wildfire]

It sucks for everyone else that they game is unfinished. I liked the idea but I didn't want to buy into a game that still lacked a bunch of elements that didn't make the game immediately fun like 1 other game I did pay early access for.

If you brought this beta before it had met all the requirements needed to be fun then keep in mind this is how you should treat early access games later on.

On the bright side Ubisoft is making a game with a similar concept with Wild so someone will make a survival game without the hook of zombies that caters to us.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Were do you propose Valve gets the money from to return your purchase? They gave it to a developer who is using the money to (theoretically) develop the game which means it would be gone by the time this situation arises.

Dunno, think it's a buyer beware situation.

I think it is a Valve beware situation.

People have paid for a finished game and get access to an unfinished version in the mean time, if no finished game turns up it seems to me those people are entitled to their money back.

It's 'early access', not 'unfinished and maybe never finished product'.

If Valve wants to sell such risky products through their digital store they should be expected to pay up if the risk doesn't work out.

 

[Opiate]

So, the question we should ask ourselves is what rate of failure we consider acceptable for Kickstarter/Early Access games.

If you are unwilling to ever let any game you purchase fail to release, then of course you should never support games in this fashion and only buy games at release. But for those of us willing to support games in this fashion, we can create a threshold of tolerance that we consider acceptable failure rates.

If 1% of games failed to be released after hitting Early Access, I think most of us would consider that acceptable. On the other end of the extreme, if 50% of games failed to release, we would not consider that acceptable. Somewhere in between these two extremes is a reasonable threshold for failure.

 

[Repawn]

Still waiting for a decent dinosaur survival.

I'm kind of sad that this game didn't go anywhere but happy I never bought it.

 

[megalowho]

Skipped over this thread because of the original title, it's full of tired Obama jokes unsurprisingly.

Good on Valve for removing the game. Without repercussions, taking the early access/kickstarter money and running will become a viable tactic for some shady developers out there, and why wouldn't it? People have proven to be more than willing to pay for the promise of a finished game no matter the state it's in, just put a build on sale with no intention of continuing development and watch the sales pile up. I hope their next project fails, developers that take advantage of consumer trust like this don't deserve a second chance.

 

[JaseC]

Skipped over this thread because of the original title, it's full of tired Obama jokes unsurprisingly.

As I said in the dupe thread, the current title is the original title. It hasn't been altered at all.

 

[Lomax]

This whole story is very odd and seems potentially a lot more complex than just "took the money and ran." Especially considering a substantial amount of work was clearly done on it at least initially.

 

[Messofanego]

Still waiting for a decent dinosaur survival.

I'm kind of sad that this game didn't go anywhere but happy I never bought it.

Primal Carnage looks alright...right? It's slim pickings lol

 

[Clefargle]

Sue Obama.

Calm down Sarah

 

[RustyNails]

 

[Archaix]

So, the question we should ask ourselves is what rate of failure we consider acceptable for Kickstarter/Early Access games.

If you are unwilling to ever let any game you purchase fail to release, then of course you should never support games in this fashion and only buy games at release. But for those of us willing to support games in this fashion, we can create a threshold of tolerance that we consider acceptable failure rates.

If 1% of games failed to be released after hitting Early Access, I think most of us would consider that acceptable. On the other end of the extreme, if 50% of games failed to release, we would not consider that acceptable. Somewhere in between these two extremes is a reasonable threshold for failure.

I put them in two different categories. Maybe I shouldn't, but a 1% failure rate for Early Access is unacceptable in my eyes and should cause all Early Access projects to be taken down from the Steam store. I feel like once it makes it to a retail front, you should be entitled to a refund if there's no final product released.

Kickstarter on the other hand isn't a retail store, it is specifically to help things get made. There's an inherent risk in Kickstarter that doesn't exist on a storefront even if the games are separate and labeled as Early Access.

 

[Messofanego]

Damn it lost it to this!

 

[Khaz]

So yeah, my contract would be between me and Valve, wouldn't it be Valves responsibility to refund me , and then up to them if they wanted to pursue the developers for the money they are out.

That's how it works when they refund you for whatever reason. You pay Valve, Valve pays the devs. If you are entitled a refund, Valve is giving it to you, taken from the devs pay or lent by insurances if there isn't enough, who then threatens the devs to get their money back, with charges.

The question is, should you be entitled for a refund if you buy an early-access game? Do you buy the product as it is, knowing of its current state, or do you buy it with the promise of getting a complete product? The wording of the contract could be critical to know if there was a fraud, but even that could challenged via court

Spoiler

in Europe.

 

[Piers]

Perfect response.
I'm skeptical of indie projects for this reason. I'm worried UT4 will end up in dev hell due to communities' lack of long-term commitment and interest.

 

[Death Metalist]

.

 

[Hylian7]

This whole story is very odd and seems potentially a lot more complex than just "took the money and ran." Especially considering a substantial amount of work was clearly done on it at least initially.

Simply saying nothing, yet abandoning development is definitely "taking the money and running".

 

[Lomax]

Simply saying nothing, yet abandoning development is definitely "taking the money and running".

Not really. If they ran out of money, it was mismanaged, but not fraud. If something bizarre happened like he was kidnapped (hey, it happened to some ARMA devs), then it could be another circumstance. I'm not saying any of those things happened, it's just if we're to believe this is all an elaborate scam, they sure went above and beyond.

 

[robotrock]

I nearly bought this game at one point because I think Dinosaurs are awesome. Glad I didn't, though!

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

I can't....

.... Stop laughing.

Help.

 

[Labadal]

Saw this posted on rpgcodex.

I still haven't backed anything that backfired on me.

 

[Dunkley]

Well at least we got The Order screenshots.

 

[Aselith]

I was checking back into this game today and while this seems highly dubious someone is claiming to be continuing work on the project

https://steamcommunity.com/app/263440/discussions/0/494632768633135123/

Obviously no one should ever donate to this shifty individual but might be worth keeping an eye on in case of further developments as he did post some videos supposedly of his work in action

 

[-tetsuo-]

I was checking back into this game today and while this seems highly dubious someone is claiming to be continuing work on the project

https://steamcommunity.com/app/263440/discussions/0/494632768633135123/

Obviously no one should ever donate to this shifty individual but might be worth keeping an eye on in case of further developments as he did post some videos supposedly of his work in action

This is just funny