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[Nerevar]

:lol Each room in Metroid Prime is practically limited to the total amount of ram in a GC, but not the whole world. If the GOD wasn't limited to a gig and a half, the game could have been much larger if the dev's cared to make it so. That's the whole point. The amount of ram limits what's practically rendered where as disk space limits the total size of the game world. The way you're talking it sounds like there's no point in having more disk space than total ram. :lol I mean really how is that not funny?

:lol
Wow, you're so off the mark it's not even funny.
That's not the point I made at all... We're talking about data loading speed from the optical disc (be it BRD or HD-DVD or DVD) to the RAM. We're not talking about size at all. My take on size is that developers can spread the content out across multiple discs. Although, admittedly, this would be difficult with a next-gen GTA:SA. We'll see if it's a problem though soon enough.

 

[hooo]

:lol
Wow, you're so off the mark it's not even funny.
That's not the point I made at all... We're talking about data loading speed from the optical disc (be it BRD or HD-DVD or DVD) to the RAM. We're not talking about size at all. My take on size is that developers can spread the content out across multiple discs. Although, admittedly, this would be difficult with a next-gen GTA:SA. We'll see if it's a problem though soon enough.

:lol Then what does the amount of ram have to do with a anything involving speed? The GBA has half a meg of system ram for everything, but the cart's fast enough where the limited ram doesn't matter. The faster the speed of the media, the less ram is needed to render a scene at the same speed. Sure, a small bump up in transfer rates won't matter all that much, but once you start doubling or tripling those speeds, it matters

:wonders if he's got the last laugh... and decides he's not kidding anyone:

 

[Teddman]

:lol :lol :lol

Wow, I didn't expect I'd be laughing my ass off watching my PS3/Xenon streaming data into its RAM, can't wait!

 

[Nerevar]

:lol Then what does the amount of ram have to do with a anything involving speed? The GBA has half a meg of system ram for everything, but the cart's fast enough where the limited ram doesn't matter. The faster the speed of the media, the less ram is needed to render a scene at the same speed. Sure, a small bump up in transfer rates won't matter all that much, but once you start doubling or tripling those speeds, it matters

Well, not really. When you're talking about cartridges versus optical disks, there is going to be a huge difference. But the speed of 16x DVD versus that of BRD or HDDVD isn't really that different. Most games already have the data for a scene that they are going to display already loaded into main RAM, if not another cache that is even closer to the CPU/GPU. The difference is in how frequently it needs to load data for a new scene into the system. When you're flying a plane or helicopter in GTA this is obviously much more frequently than when you're walking down a corrider in a FPS, so the need to make hits to the opitcal disc is very different too. But regardless, I still think more main RAM (and better - the RAMBUS choice for PS3 is very interesting and could really work out) is more important than faster read times from the optical disk.

 

[hooo]

And if they use a 2x or 3x next gen drive, the 16x DVD will be inferior. I think it was in this thread that someone posted that they were having issues with the 16x drives because at that speed the media was breaking apart. While making a game disc of a sturdier dvd and having any normal weaker dvds (pirated burns in particular) shatter in the drive would be an amusing form of copy protection, I don't think it's likely.

 

[Flatbread]

I am not tech savy, just wondering about where Plasma tvs fit into all this talk?

When I saw the plasma picture I was floored, and thought it was superior to HDTV. Why not skip HDTV and go right to plasma? I probably said something that needs correction but still Im just wondering where plasma fits in?

 

[human5892]

I am not tech savy, just wondering about where Plasma tvs fit into all this talk?

When I saw the plasma picture I was floored, and thought it was superior to HDTV. Why not skip HDTV and go right to plasma? I probably said something that needs correction but still Im just wondering where plasma fits in?

Plasma displays are a type of HD (High Defintion) television. The new consoles will support resolutions that all HDTVs -- whether it be plasma, LCD, CRT, etc. -- can take advantage of.

 

[Argyle]

You say I have no idea how game design works ... then repeat exactly what I said. Thanks for clearing that up though!

I know games stream data off of a disc, but the streamed data gets loaded into RAM first. If you're streaming the maximum amount of data you can into RAM, then it doesn't matter if your disc is streaming it at 16x or 250x - you're still streaming into RAM. Thanks for reinforcing my point!

I re-read your post and I think I finally understand what you were trying to say. (You shouldn't have put in all that nonsense about the hierarchy of caches, it's true, but has no bearing on this discussion.) First, a couple of misconceptions on your part:

1. Data from disc is always going into RAM, if even for a very short time. FMV is streamed in compressed state and decompressed in the machine so that the graphics processor can display it, it's not streamed "directly into CPU cache" (impossible on most architectures)...this is more or less true for all consoles with optical storage, and some consoles that use solid-state storage.
2. That said, a game can be "streaming constantly" in order to load new areas of the level, background music, etc...often all at the same time. Circular buffers can be set up such that data is consumed as fast as it is loaded (the most obvious example of this would be for streaming music)

I agree with you that more RAM is nice, but you can't completely discount disc size and speed. One bummer about switching discs is that in an open-world game, you might have to switch the disc more often than you'd like. Also, some assets will have to be common to both discs, so you won't get exactly twice the space on a multidisc game.

 

[Phoenix]

Plasma displays are a type of HD (High Defintion) television. The new consoles will support resolutions that all HDTVs -- whether it be plasma, LCD, CRT, etc. -- can take advantage of.

Just to clarify, Plasmas also come in EDTV varieties (and these are cheaper and more prevalent). EDTV has a resolution of 854x480 (409,920 pixels). Most of the TVs considered HDTV are of resolution 1024x768 (minimum). While an EDTV can display a 'true' HD signal by downsampling it to the EDTV resolution, its worth noting that there is a very distinct difference with plasma (and to some extent LCD) sets.

 

[Nerevar]

1. Data from disc is always going into RAM, if even for a very short time. FMV is streamed in compressed state and decompressed in the machine so that the graphics processor can display it, it's not streamed "directly into CPU cache" (impossible on most architectures)...this is more or less true for all consoles with optical storage, and some consoles that use solid-state storage.

Oh, I agree, my point was simply that data is constantly being read from the disc into system memory (main RAM, in this case), used, and discarded for more info from the disc. Therefore, it is the only practical situation where disc read time will always directly affect real-world performance. Usually a good developer will try and develop a game where the data in system memory is reused. This is because, no matter what, hits to RAM are always faster than going to the optical disk for data.

2. That said, a game can be "streaming constantly" in order to load new areas of the level, background music, etc...often all at the same time. Circular buffers can be set up such that data is consumed as fast as it is loaded (the most obvious example of this would be for streaming music)

Agreed, but with the exception of music, data is rarely, if ever, loaded directly from the optical disk to in-game assets. It simply isn't fast enough. Which sort of renders the whole point of "disk speed" moot. I doubt we're ever gonig to reach a point where optical storage matches disk-based or cartridge-based storage in terms of access times.

I agree with you that more RAM is nice, but you can't completely discount disc size and speed. One bummer about switching discs is that in an open-world game, you might have to switch the disc more often than you'd like. Also, some assets will have to be common to both discs, so you won't get exactly twice the space on a multidisc game.

Agreed there too. Often times data is stored redundantly on a single disk due to the nature of how a DVD/BRD reads data. It's clearly going to have to be replicated across multiple disks, which makes it less efficient in the end. I don't think Microsoft would be making a better choice by going with DVD, just that some people make it out like it's going to kill Microsoft, and I think that's wrong. I think, given the choice between HD-DVD and twice as much RAM, MS would be better going with 2x as much ram.

 

[sonycowboy]

And if they use a 2x or 3x next gen drive, the 16x DVD will be inferior. I think it was in this thread that someone posted that they were having issues with the 16x drives because at that speed the media was breaking apart. While making a game disc of a sturdier dvd and having any normal weaker dvds (pirated burns in particular) shatter in the drive would be an amusing form of copy protection, I don't think it's likely.

1x DVD = 11.08Mbps
1x BD-ROM = 36Mbps
1x HD-DVD = 36Mbps

16x DVD = 177.28Mbps

It's going to take a while for BD-ROM's to be as fast as 16xDVD's as they (BD) are roughly only 3x as fast at single speed DVD. The spec for BD-ROM has currently only been set for 1x and 2x should be out later this year.

 

[human5892]

Just to clarify, Plasmas also come in EDTV varieties (and these are cheaper and more prevalent). EDTV has a resolution of 854x480 (409,920 pixels). Most of the TVs considered HDTV are of resolution 1024x768 (minimum). While an EDTV can display a 'true' HD signal by downsampling it to the EDTV resolution, its worth noting that there is a very distinct difference with plasma (and to some extent LCD) sets.

Thanks, I probably should've included that in my original post.

 

[Izzy]

I can't believe people are even arguing this. Blu-Ray's advantage doesn't only lie in the superior storage capacity - the average access times are faster, and so is the drive. The only reason MS went with DVD is the price.

 

[Nerevar]

I can't believe people are even arguing this. Blu-Ray's advantage doesn't only lie in the superior storage capacity - the average access times are faster, and so is the drive. The only reason MS went with DVD is the price.

meet:

1x DVD = 11.08Mbps
1x BD-ROM = 36Mbps
1x HD-DVD = 36Mbps

16x DVD = 177.28Mbps

It's going to take a while for BD-ROM's to be as fast as 16xDVD's as they (BD) are roughly only 3x as fast at single speed DVD. The spec for BD-ROM has currently only been set for 1x and 2x should be out later this year.

and of course the only reason MS went with standard DVD is the price. The whole crux of the debate in this thread was that it's better to put more money into things like system memory than into a higher capacity drive in terms of overall system performance.

 

[Fafalada]

1x DVD = 11.08Mbps
1x BD-ROM = 36Mbps
1x HD-DVD = 36Mbps

Actually... the PDF released on August 3rd 2004 (a few days before specification 1.0 was approved on Aug 11th), they stated

1xBD-R/BD-RE = 36Mbps
1xBD-ROM = 54Mbps

No idea whether the spec approved few days later is the same or not though, as it's not publically available

 

[pilonv1]

But even at 2x that figure it's still slower than a 16xDVD drive. It won't be until they hit 4x that they will be getting better access speeds.

 

[Izzy]

But even at 2x that figure it's still slower than a 16xDVD drive. It won't be until they hit 4x that they will be getting better access speeds.

You're actually referring to data transfer rate - not access speed.

 

[Nerevar]

You're actually referring to data transfer rate - not access speed.

Been a long time since I took hardware classes in college - but isn't average access time just one part in how long it takes to locate and find data on the drive (including seek time and control time - some other stuff)?

 

[Izzy]

More or less.

 

[pilonv1]

You know what I meant though

 

[Izzy]

Of course.

 

[Fafalada]

But even at 2x that figure it's still slower than a 16xDVD drive. It won't be until they hit 4x that they will be getting better access speeds.

Yeah, I've been saying 4x was needed before BR was ever confirmed for PS3. That was one of the reasons why I was skeptical it would actually be used, now I'm more worried it will be too slow :\

 

[Azih]

Yikes, had no idea that BR was slower than DVD, ahah. Oh well


<Kutaragi> The gargantuan loading times is not a flaw it's BY DESIGN! Don't you see how beautiful the movies are on HDTV? Huh?


Edit: Kutaragi bashing aside (I'll pounce on any reason to do so, man's a goldmine of crazy quotes) 4X BRs should be out by the time PS3 hits right? Would be crazy expensive though.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

Do you even have the foggiest idea what you are talking about here? I really think you don't. What good is a 30GB worth of world data that exist on BR if the system can only get to at most 512MB of it at any given time, and more importantly, your bladder only has capacity for around 4~6 hours? Even the worst FMV fest of a game won't be able to use up 7GB in 4~6 hours of gameplay.

Ha! Wrong. We're already straining 8GB, with a 16MB dynamic set.

[edit to info++]
The other 16MB is static data. Media size is important, data rate is important, seek times are important, refocussing times are important. Especially when you're laying out 8GB of data by hand, because you have areas where you're playing four seperate streams of multichannel audio, pre-buffering an mpeg, and loading a new area (and enemies) at the same time.

 

[sonycowboy]

Yikes, had no idea that BR was slower than DVD, ahah. Oh well

4X BRs should be out by the time PS3 hits right? Would be crazy expensive though.

Blu-Ray is ~5 times faster on a single speed basis, but yeah, DVD 16x would be approximately Blu-Ray 3x (thanks to Fafalada re: 54Mbps)

The spec for the BD-ROM 1.0 was just been approved as of Aug 11,2004 and only lists the 1x speed. The 2.0 format is assumed to be bringing with it the 2x speed (and possibly the 4x) and should be out mid-to-late this year.

 

[jarrod]

More from Darkfalz aka MS game dev.....
and frankly, I haven't bought hardly any cross platform games on my Xbox. I bought my Xbox for Halo, Halo 2, Project Gotham, Ralisport, Fable, Knights of the Old Republic, KOTOR II, Top Spin, Amped, Conker's, UC:II, Fuzion Frenzy, KFC, Counter Strike, Outrun, etc.

Um... half those are on other "platforms". :/

 

[Kleegamefan]

don't have an official "link", it was the "unofficial" Sony PR response at the last CES when they were asked why their 1080p sets did not support 1080p input. And as I said, I didn't think their Sony PR people would lie about their own products (at least lie about by saying it was worse than it actually was).

Did you go to CES??....If you did, you should have stopped by the Alexis Park suite that had the Sony BRD-ROM demo.....the BRD-ROM deck they had there was outputting 1080p/24 via HDMI and *YES* BRD supports ALL ATSC standards, which of course includes 1080p/24..


FURTHERMORE


The Sony rep there stated that even if your 1080p display only has 1080i ins (like say, the Sony Qualia 004 or a JVC DILA HD2K) you can still "sneek" 1080SpF video in there so you are getting 1080p one way or another...

Please quit spreading false rumors? KTHXBYE

 

[Nerevar]

Did you go to CES??....If you did, you should have stopped by the Alexis Park suite that had the Sony BRD-ROM demo.....the BRD-ROM deck they had there was outputting 1080p/24 via HDMI and *YES* BRD supports ALL ATSC standards, which of course includes 1080p/24..


FURTHERMORE


The Sony rep there stated that even if your 1080p display only has 1080i ins (like say, the Sony Qualia 004 or a JVC DILA HD2K) you can still "sneek" 1080SpF video in there so you are getting 1080p one way or another...

Please quit spreading false rumors? KTHXBYE

Look, I'm sorry if you view it as "spreading false rumors", but this is the first time I've been told directly otherwise. A person who I vew as very trustworthy relayed this information to me directly from a Sony rep at CES. I'm sorry if this info is wrong, but don't blame me, blame the PR person who said otherwise at CES.

 

[element]

More from Darkfalz aka MS game dev.....

Darkfalz works at MGS, but not really a 'developer'. Important team member though.

And before everyone freaks about where the link is from just know this guy is legit and does work for MS. He has been involved with the site for 4+ years posting randomly as well as another guy by the name of Bender.

Bender is the shit

 

[Kleegamefan]

Look, I'm sorry if you view it as "spreading false rumors", but this is the first time I've been told directly otherwise. A person who I vew as very trustworthy relayed this information to me directly from a Sony rep at CES. I'm sorry if this info is wrong, but don't blame me, blame the PR person who said otherwise at CES.

Ok....no problems and I am not trying to flame and I am sorry if I came off that way


Oh...I forgot, check out Kachings link and you will see a link that shows BRD supporting 1080p..

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13627/Index.html

And let me ask you this....I have seen Faf and others state that 16X DVD drives are the outside limits of DVDs...any faster and the disk is at the risk of shattering....am I the only one concerned about this fact??

I don't know about you, but the thought of having a DVD drive that spends a good part of its time at the physical limits of a DVD is not very reassuring....

You can use a DVD Rom drive that is faster than say a 2X BRD-ROM (108mb/sec) but at what cost?

Am I crazy or could disk falures be a bigger issue with a 16X drive??(just asking)


And again, going with a console that READS next generation media isn't forcing a developer to do anything as I am sure they could even ship a game on CD if they wanted, no?

I would think that, as was the case with the PS2, a lot of the first generation PS3 games will be DVD based and some of those wil even be worthwhile/profitable game...remeber VF4....this is a high profile game on PS2 that sold over a million copys worldwide and was CD based so I ask, WTF is up with all the bitching??

 

[Nerevar]

And let me ask you this....I have seen Faf and others state that 16X DVD drives are the outside limits of DVDs...any faster and the disk is at the risk of shattering....am I the only one concerned about this fact??

I don't know about you, but the thought of having a DVD drive that spends a good part of its time at the physical limits of a DVD is not very reassuring....

You can use a DVD Rom drive that is faster than say a 2X BRD-ROM (108mb/sec) but at what cost?

Am I crazy or could disk falures be a bigger issue with a 16X drive??(just asking)


And again, going with a console that READS next generation media isn't forcing a developer to do anything as I am sure they could even ship a game on CD if they wanted, no?

I would think that, as was the case with the PS2, a lot of the first generation PS3 games will be DVD based and some of those wil even be worthwhile/profitable game...remeber VF4....this is a high profile game on PS2 that sold over a million copys worldwide and was CD based so I ask, WTF is up with all the bitching??

Oh, I agree in the sense that any of the console manufacturers can go with next-gen media, they should. But the issue at hand is whether the cost / returns are good enough. And in that end, I just don't see it being enough of a benefit. I would rather they put more system memory in as that would do more (IMO) to boost performance than a higher-performing media. But, without cost restraints, I would most certainly like to have both

 

[Azih]

Well for one thing I get the impression that it's not bitching about the PS3 as much as refuting the idea that Xenon being DVD only is the worst move ever.

As for me personally I just don't like that HD and BR DVD are being pushed at *all* not just in the PS3. DVD is a great standardised format and leaving it alone for a good few years before moving onto the next format would be the healthiest thing for the market in my view.

 

[sonycowboy]

Well for one thing I get the impression that it's not bitching about the PS3 as much as refuting the idea that Xenon being DVD only is the worst move ever.

As for me personally I just don't like that HD and BR DVD are being pushed at *all* not just in the PS3. DVD is a great standardised format and leaving it alone for a good few years before moving onto the next format would be the healthiest thing for the market in my view.

I don't agree with this. DVD is "old" in terms of tech. It was announced in 1994 and released in 1995. Don't forget that DVD is a computer technology as much as a home video technology (eg. People didn't put VHS' in computer drives). It took DVD a good 4-5 years to really be accepted as a mainstream technology. If it takes the same for Blu-Ray, that's fine. But I'd like to start experiencing it now, both on my computer, where I'd love to have some high capacity removable and easily transportable storage, as well as in my living room, so I can actually really use my HDTV that I've had for almost a year (720p/1080i).

DVD is NOT going away anytime soon. Just like DVD just recently passed VHS as the dominant home video format even though DVD has almost been on the scene for 10 years.

If you want to say that Xbox 2 doesn't need it because it's VERY EARLY on in the format's life, fine. It most likely won't be a deciding factor in the console battle, but to say that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD isn't needed, won't make a difference, blah, blah, blah is just stupid.

 

[Azih]

Dammit Sony, I responded to THIS EXACT SAME ARGUMENT two pages ok. Here's a cut and paste.


*******
Yes that's true but it would be much much better if the market wasn't muddled by the introduction of new formats. ESPECIALLY when they're competing with each other. Just realeasing a next gen DVD format would be enough to confuse customers when it comes to buying content or players let alone COMPETING formats.

I'm telling you people WILL buy BR movies and expect them to work on their vanilla DVD players and get frustrated when they don't. They WILL Buy HD movies and expect them to run on their PS3s. And none of it should be happening AT ALL.

Right now things are neat, simple, clear... standardised. Leave it alone for pete's sake.

Also, there are millions of consumers who already have some leve of HDTV. Try telling them that it's useless to buy a new format that will still play their existing DVD library, but will also take advantage of their investment.

ALL of the rest of your post is catering to the bleeding edge. The audio-video-techno philes. Catering to this niche IS NOT WORTH confusing the mainstream (especially when the mainstream won't even notice the DIFFERENCE). And it doesn't take much at all to confuse the mainstream believe you me.

************************

Also I made the point later that starting to scream about a brand new format just as people are getting comfortable with one will SAP CONSUMER GOODWILL. You do not want to sap consumer goodwill.

 

[kaching]

DVD isn't exactly a "great standardized format" when it comes to recordability and rewritablity though, and instead of agreeing on a single format to support, everyone seems to just agree to try to support as many as they can, which doesn't guarantee universal compatability for the consumer. Hardly an ideal situation.

Meanwhile we're on the cusp of the first major revision to TV broadcast standards in the US in decades and the push towards High-Def content will continue. Even if you retrofit DVD media with MP4 codec support, you're still working with an amount of space that's more limiting than anything else.

 

[rastex]

VHS:Lazerdisc == DVD:HD-DVD/BR

I think that pretty much sums it up. And the fact that HD and BR are in competition means that they'll get less exposure than even Lazerdisc. One more point, DVDs have been around since 95 and yet it's only been in the past year or two that DVD drives have become standard in computers.

One final question, does HI-Def give any benefits over SD DVDs for movies that aren't shot in Hi-Def? In terms of transferring film to Hi-Def does it really make for a clearer picture?

 

[Azih]

DVD isn't exactly a "great standardized format" when it comes to recordability and rewritablity though, and instead of agreeing on a single format to support, everyone seems to just agree to try to support as many as they can, which doesn't guarantee universal compatability for the consumer. Hardly an ideal situation.

it is FOR THE MAINSTREAM.

Meanwhile we're on the cusp of the first major revision to TV broadcast standards in the US in decades and the push towards High-Def content will continue. Even if you retrofit DVD media with MP4 codec support, you're still working with an amount of space that's more limiting than anything else.

It won't affect the Mainstream to any degree for a few more years Let the Mainstream catch a breather and then move on. ESPECIALLY because by then the demand for higher capacity media will be much more natural as it will be demanded by the increasing penetration of HD into mass market homes. Hopefully a few more years of downtime will also cause the damn companies to settle down too because darnit format wars are bad bad bad bad.

Edit: Thanks rastex I've been wanting to bring up Laserdisc for a while now. Timing is hella important for stuff like this and this is TOO EARLY. DVD is just hitting its stride man.

 

[jedimike]

If you want to say that Xbox 2 doesn't need it because it's VERY EARLY on in the format's life, fine. It most likely won't be a deciding factor in the console battle, but to say that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD isn't needed, won't make a difference, blah, blah, blah is just stupid.

It's not stupid... I think everyone would love to see every console adopt a mass optical storage format, but we can all understand why MS didn't want to do it. And the reasons are good reasons and doesn't effect the quality of the games. That's really the bottom line. Xbox 360 owners will not be losing out on anything because Sony has BR and they only have DVD. There are so many more important factors that will have an infinitely greater impact.

Also, everyone needs to keep in mind that MS will support HD-DVD in a higher end Xbox. This means that people who want the format to watch movies on can get that. It also means that if a DVD spans several discs, there is nothing to stop MS from offering a LE edition available only on HD-DVD... much like what happens on PC games today.

 

[Lord Error]

it is FOR THE MAINSTREAM.

He sad recordability and rewriteability, and even to this day, the issue of DVD+RW and DVD-RW isn't fully solved (the Apple G4 Titanium powerbook superdrive for example still doesn't support both formats), and is confusing and annoying even more tech minded people, not to mention 'mainstream'. When those formats first appeared, the confusion was ten times worse, of course.

 

[Azih]

He sad recordability and rewriteability

which barely affects THE MAINSTREAM. Tivo like solutions are taking care of the segment of the mass market that wants to record shows. DVDs are used for playback pretty much exclusively.

Plus the HD, BR debacle is much much worse in any case.

 

[pcostabel]

One final question, does HI-Def give any benefits over SD DVDs for movies that aren't shot in Hi-Def? In terms of transferring film to Hi-Def does it really make for a clearer picture?

Film resolution is ~4000 lines, so the difference between a DVD transfer and an HD transfer is quite noticeable, especially on a big screen. Just compare movie broadcasts with the DVD version and you'll see. Most DVDs are produced from HD transfers, so the studios have a huge library of HD movies ready for release. They can't wait to sell us the same movies yet again. The switch to HD is going to be a windfall for all involved, no wonder they are pushing for it.

 

[kaching]

And the fact that HD and BR are in competition means that they'll get less exposure than even Lazerdisc.

WHAT? How is this in any way a foregone conclusion?

One final question, does HI-Def give any benefits over SD DVDs for movies that aren't shot in Hi-Def? In terms of transferring film to Hi-Def does it really make for a clearer picture?

I've read, but have no source, that standard film has suitable "resolution" to continue to offer finer details to at least 1080p. Given that Sony uses Lawrence of Arabia footage as an example of the benefits of HD over SD, I'd say it's a pretty sure bet.

it is FOR THE MAINSTREAM.

So Little Johnny Mainstream recording a DVD for his grandma that turns out doesn't work on the DVD player the family bought her a couple of years ago is considered ideal?

It won't affect the Mainstream to any degree for a few more years Let the Mainstream catch a breather and then move on. ESPECIALLY because by then the demand for higher capacity media will be much more natural as it will be demanded by the increasing penetration of HD into mass market homes. Hopefully a few more years of downtime will also cause the damn companies to settle down too because darnit format wars are bad bad bad bad.

The "MAINSTREAM" you are so infatuated with won't be buying from the beginning no matter when you introduce. They'll get their chance for a "breather" even though they won't actually take it because they'll just end up spending their disposable income on some other disposable luxuries in the meantime. Meanwhile there is a market that has already developed a following of millions that is being starved for product they're willing to buy. Hey, let's just walk away from that. Imagine if game publishers said, "If you have anything less than a userbase of 20 million we won't make games for your platform."

 

[sonycowboy]

It's not stupid... I think everyone would love to see every console adopt a mass optical storage format, but we can all understand why MS didn't want to do it. And the reasons are good reasons and doesn't effect the quality of the games. That's really the bottom line. Xbox 360 owners will not be losing out on anything because Sony has BR and they only have DVD. There are so many more important factors that will have an infinitely greater impact.

Also, everyone needs to keep in mind that MS will support HD-DVD in a higher end Xbox. This means that people who want the format to watch movies on can get that. It also means that if a DVD spans several discs, there is nothing to stop MS from offering a LE edition available only on HD-DVD... much like what happens on PC games today.

My stupid comment were for people saying the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray aren't necessary, not for arguing about it's inclusion or exclusion from Xenon.

I agree (as I said above) that it may not have any significant factor in the next gen battle, and it's probably necessary from a cost standpoint for Xenon not to have it standard. However, it seems as if it could be showing that Microsoft is in too much of a rush. If they waited a year, would they then include HD-DVD? I think that breaks a fundamental concept that you wait for the significant technology to be there to launch a new sytem. Otherwise, you could be behind the 8-Ball, by not having that tech. You really need to design your system with an eye out for the next 5-6 years.

Finally, alot of people look at systems as a series of pros and cons. If PS3 does everything Xenon does (from their standpoint) and has Blu-Ray movie capability, why not get it?

 

[rastex]

Thanks for the reply.

Personally, I think BOTH BR and HD-DVD are stopgap solutions, and the real next-gen format will be something that supports large fractions of terabytes.

 

[Azih]

*grumble grumble*

Catering to the audio-video-techno phile niche IS NOT WORTH confusing the mainstream (especially when the mainstream won't even notice the DIFFERENCE). And it doesn't take much at all to confuse the mainstream believe you me. Patience in this case is a damned VIRTUE. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying don't do it NOW.

So Little Johnny Mainstream recording a DVD for his grandma that turns out doesn't work on the DVD player the family bought her a couple of years ago is considered ideal

A HELL of a lot better than introducing EVEN MORE FORMATS into the mix. And yes in terms of playback DVD *IS* Ideal.

 

[rastex]

Finally, alot of people look at systems as a series of pros and cons. If PS3 does everything Xenon does (from their standpoint) and has Blu-Ray movie capability, why not get it?

Because PS3 won't exist in Fall 2005. That's the key. And so when PS3 launches in fall 2006, the factor will be that PS3 doesn't have the library of games of Xenon. Who knows what other benefits that MS will provide consumers that PS3 doesn't (other than Live that is)?

 

[kaching]

which barely affects THE MAINSTREAM. Tivo like solutions are taking care of the segment of the mass market that wants to record shows. DVDs are used for playback pretty much exclusively.

Because of a major failure on the part of DVD, the Great Standardized Format.

Plus the HD, BR debacle is much much worse in any case.

It's a war of words right now. There's little or no product on the market yet fragmenting the userbase so it can't be considered worse than the DVD situation yet.

 

[Azih]

Because of a major failure on the part of DVD, the Great Standardized Format.

This has become a useless tangent. Mainstream isn't using DVDs for recording. End of discussion.

It's a war of words right now. There's little or no product on the market yet fragmenting the userbase so it can't be considered worse than the DVD situation yet.

THEY'RE NOT SEPERATE SITUATIONS. THEY'RE ALL COMPETING FORMATS. Plain DVD, HR, and BR are three formats that will confuse the hell out of the mainstream. Look I talked about this already.

**
Just realeasing a next gen DVD format would be enough to confuse customers when it comes to buying content or players let alone COMPETING formats.
**

And I really like rastex's future. Leave consumer media format alone for a good long while and then not only will the transition to the next gen be much smoother (because of demand being driven by consumers not just from the early adopters) , but the technology will be much much better (terabytes) and hell hopefully there won't be any format war.

 

[kaching]

Can I make a tag request for Azih? "Unsolicited Champion of THE MAINSTREAM" or something like that. I don't think I've seen anyone so overbearingly concerned about the well-being of a hypothetical group's disposable income usage, who can't be anywhere near as concerned for their own luxury spending welfare as he is.

 

[sonycowboy]

Can I make a tag request for Azih? "Unsolicited Champion of THE MAINSTREAM" or something like that. I don't think I've seen anyone so overbearingly concerned about the well-being of a hypothetical group's disposable income usage, who can't be anywhere near as concerned for their own luxury spending welfare as he is.

But, but, but.......

"THE MAINSTREAM!!!!!!!!!"

You don't want to confuse them!!! They'll **** you UP!!! REAL GOOD