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[crimzonflame]

They make up a small minority of the prostitutes. Do you punish all the victimized women and children because a few prostitutes aren't being pimped?

Oh I see your point. I misread your original post.

 

[krypt0nian]

I guess I can't have fun with you guys.

The sad part is someone was probably sitting behind their computer nodding their head in agreement but too chickenshit for fear of reprisal.

Sure douches are all over. I'm sure there are plenty of them nodding along with your profound statement.

 

[CrankyJay]

Sure douches are all over. I'm sure there are plenty of them nodding along with your profound statement.

Well, it was a joke. I'm sorry if it offended you and even more sorry if you can't get over it.

 

[Zzoram]

Why should anyone go to jail if everyone is a willing participant and safe sex is practiced? Is it somehow wrong to voluntarily pay for sex, but not to sell it?

That's the problem, the prostitutes are not "willing", but the Johns love to pretend that they are to feel better about themselves. Prostitutes are almost always people who were sexually abused as children and then later addicted to drugs and pimped out. Just because they're not fighting off the Johns doesn't mean they want to be there. They're traumatized endentured slaves.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

We wouldn't have much need for prostitution if there wasn't such a puritanical view on sex... and y'know people stopped putting pussy on a pedestal.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Doesn't the study say that places have seen increased crime since it was legalized? Iwoudl tend to agree with you, but that statistic surprised me.

They aren't very specific on that point, aside from noticing the increase in trafficking. I would think that making it sternly regulated would at least get a good chunk of the girls off the street, and help them keep tabs on abusive assholes much easier.

Imagine if, every time you had to pay for sex, you had to walk by a security camera, show ID, and pay with a credit/debit card? What if you needed a license to be a prostitute? What if their wages were taxed?

There would still exploitation, there would still be creepers trying to rough girls up, but these guys are going to try and find "off the grid" choking/rape/smacking jollies no matter how much you prosecute them. It would be better to clean it up for the vast majority of customers and prostitutes.

I would personally never pay for sex, but I don't see why it should be illegal in all cases at all times if she just wants money and he just wants sex and they both consent to the exchange.

That's the problem, the prostitutes are not "willing", but the Johns love to pretend that they are to feel better about themselves. Prostitutes are almost always people who were sexually abused as children and then later addicted to drugs and pimped out. Just because they're not fighting off the Johns doesn't mean they want to be there. They're traumatized endentured slaves.

This is certainly true for many but still a generalization. There are women who put themselves through school selling their bodies, even if it's just stripping.

 

[RoadHazard]

Why should anyone go to jail if everyone is a willing participant and safe sex is practiced? Is it somehow wrong to voluntarily pay for sex, but not to sell it?

It's meant to take care of the much larger problem of women being forced into prostitution (and trafficking). Yes, there are probably some women (a small minority) who do it totally willingly, but how are you gonna control and check this? Would you even get straight answers from the ones who really have been forced into this situation? No, you need to set a standard, and that's what we've done here in Sweden. Obviously it works really well.

 

[Woody Invincible]

I don't think I would visit the boards everyday if CrankyJay wasn't a member. Not a single damned dull post.

 

[Triple Oceans]

Hmmm, so basically this is saying that there is a growing demand for more sex in society. I'm missing why this is newsworthy...

 

[TxdoHawk]

I simply do not understand the concept of paying for sex or paying a woman to remove her clothes.

There are a variety of reasons guys do this. Some men like the feeling of "power" they get from being able to buy sexual favors. Some are too busy with jobs to bother courting women in the traditional manner. Some are unhappily married men looking for an escape without a lot of effort and a large paper trail. Some men just have zero patience when it comes to dealing with women. Some use strip clubs as their preferred method of showing off how much money they make. The list goes on and on.

I personally would never pay for sex as a matter of pride, but there are plenty of reasons that men do.

 

[CrankyJay]

The trafficking of women (and men, and children) is disturbing. I read an article that there was an increase in trafficking surrounding the last World Cup because of the anticipated demand.

I'm not completely against a person willingly doing it and making money from it, but with the trafficking it can be hard to differentiate so maybe it is best to try to eliminate it all together. But I don't think attacking it head on is the solution...perhaps attacking poverty from every other angle would go a long way in helping with this.

 

[Zzoram]

Hmmm, so basically this is saying that there is a growing demand for more sex in society. I'm missing why this is newsworthy...

You didn't read the story.

It said that in countries where prostitution is legalized, there is more human trafficking of sex slaves, and more violence towards prostitutes due to the massive increase in demand once all the depraved men no longer have to fear buying sex.

Sweden only made buying sex illegal, not selling sex, and they've managed to reduce the associated crime and reduce human trafficking of sex slaves.

 

[Zzoram]

The trafficking of women (and men, and children) is disturbing. I read an article that there was an increase in trafficking surrounding the last World Cup because of the anticipated demand.

I'm not completely against a person willingly doing it and making money from it, but with the trafficking it can be hard to differentiate so maybe it is best to try to eliminate it all together. But I don't think attacking it head on is the solution...perhaps attacking poverty from every other angle would go a long way in helping with this.

Poverty is only part of the problem. It doesn't matter how rich or poor a child is if they've been sexually abused and run away from home, only to get hooked on drugs and used as a cum dumpster slave.

As long as the demand is there, human sex trafficking of women and children will be a huge business. Sweden's approach is the best one yet because it only attacks the demand, it doesn't punish the victims.

Trafficked children often have histories similar to that of T.O.M. Research indicates that most prostitutes were sexually abused as girls, and they typically enter “the life” between the ages of 12 and 14.

 

[CrankyJay]

Poverty is only part of the problem. It doesn't matter how rich or poor a child is if they've been sexually abused and run away from home, only to get hooked on drugs and used as a cum dumpster slave.

As long as the demand is there, human sex trafficking of women and children will be a huge business. Sweden's approach is the best one yet because it only attacks the demand, it doesn't punish the victims.

Well, there's the prostitutes demand for money (not talking about the slavers here). By "doesn't punish" I hope that means they actively try to help these people find viable jobs instead of just letting them go and re-do it all over.

 

[water_wendi]

Yes, and it's brilliant. That's why so many other countries are adopting it.

Yes it is. It puts in prison the right people. Not the people forced into sex work.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

You didn't read the story.

It said that in countries where prostitution is legalized, there is more human trafficking of sex slaves, and more violence towards prostitutes due to the massive increase in demand once all the depraved men no longer have to fear buying sex.

Sweden only made buying sex illegal, not selling sex, and they've managed to reduce the associated crime and reduce human trafficking of sex slaves.

It didn't say this at all. It's pretty vague on what crimes went up beyond trafficking.

 

[Black_Stride]

I simply do not understand the concept of paying for sex or paying a woman to remove her clothes.

Quit playing dumb.

Not everyone has the time, charm and/or looks to get a woman to put out whenever they need it.


Im in london for a weekend.....alone you bet ur ass im calling up an escort...sex with no strings attached from a eastern European woman clearly out of my league...yes please.

 

[Eric_S]

I was intrigued by the following:

Sweden decided that prostitution was a form of violence against women and made it a crime to buy sex, although not to sell it. This approach dramatically reduced trafficking, whereas the legalization of prostitution in the Netherlands, Germany, and much of Australia led to an explosive growth in demand that generated an increase in trafficking and other crimes.

How do they know this? Another plausible explanation for the drop Sweden might very well be that such prostitution is forced undergound and is less noticable (and vice verca for the other countries). And in the same line, what are the statistics for the countries that have adopted the Swedish stance on prostitution? If (?) it is the case that legalization allways leads to more cases of forced prostitution and the Swedish model allways works as advertized, then it's obviously the way to go.

In my mind, trafficing and forced prostitution is the thing that makes buying or selling sex open for legislation. That socially hampered individuals are more likely to seek out prostitution as a means for their sexual needs doesn't seem strange to me, and doesn't reflect on the need for legislation. It does however hight the need to "catch" these people while younger and get them out of failed/abusive famelies, etc that I imagine could be the root cause of such caustic views on women. And that is regardelss of the legal routes that you choose.

 

[AVclub]

That's the problem, the prostitutes are not "willing", but the Johns love to pretend that they are to feel better about themselves. Prostitutes are almost always people who were sexually abused as children and then later addicted to drugs and pimped out. Just because they're not fighting off the Johns doesn't mean they want to be there. They're traumatized endentured slaves.

This is nonsense. I'm at work every day because I have a mortgage to pay, and I don't really want to be here. Am I an "endentured slave"? Sexual abuse as a child is terrible and tragic, but it doesn't force anyone to become anything they don't want to become. Like any traumatizing experience, you can either grow from it and become stronger, or let it consume you and decimate your life.

The statistics about how many children get abused have been ridiculous over the last few decades. If all those people became prostitutes, our society would collapse. A life of prostitution is an exception, not the rule. Abuse is no more the cause of prostitution than it is the cause women going into law enforcement.

Saying it's okay for a woman to offer sex for money, but it's illegal for a man to accept that offer is wrong. Unless there's a gun to the hooker's head, she's agreeing to a business transaction of her own free will.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Well, Gaborn?

I think everyone recognizes that while prostitution and trafficking are not intrinsically linked, they often are. Everyone knows that the possibility of encouraging prostitution is probably linked to abuse.

Many if not most legalization groups, particularly in North America, are current or former sex trade workers who feel that in their area the abuse against women would be lessened if decriminalization or legalization is pursued. These are not people out to abuse women or encourage trafficking.

I'm generally in favour of decriminalizing prostitution but pretty against the sex trade. I think there are good reasons to decriminalize it. First, because sex services are important for a wide variety of groups including the physically and mentally disabled. If you're not familiar with this argument, feel free to look it up; I don't intend to get into a defence of it because it's an aside from my point. Second, because many women suffer abuse either from police or because of their fear of police, and those barriers need to be torn down. That being said, I think there are probably ways to do that while simultaneously making the industry itself cleaner and more free of trafficking and making sure no woman ever has to depend on prostitution to provide for herself or her family.

I would largely do this through promoting certain social services, work transition programs, and otherwise taking a pretty progressive stance towards empowering the women, but someone else might feel that there's a better policy solution.

This policy dichotomy exists in many sex-related subjects. Consider pornography. Cultural conservatives oppose it. Progressive feminists support it as part of sexual liberation. Radical feminists typically oppose it. The reason why cultural conservatives and radical feminists oppose it differ; both are identifying different problems.

(I'm aware I'm not explaining this particularly well, I just wanted to sketch out my position in order to elaborate on how someone could be pro-legalization but still aware of these issues. I also know I'm not Gaborn and I have no idea if he agrees with what I've said here.)

 

[Veidt]

Prostitution should be legalised, taxed, monitored and regulated properly. It's not that hard to solve all of the issues associated with prostitution really.

 

[Zzoram]

Quit playing dumb.

Not everyone has the time, charm and/or looks to get a woman to put out whenever they need it.


Im in london for a weekend.....alone you bet ur ass im calling up an escort...sex with no strings attached from a eastern European woman (likely tricked into thinking she was coming to London for a modelling job then made an endentured sex slave working to "repay" the cost of her transportation and housing) clearly out of my league...yes please.

Fixed.

 

[CrankyJay]

Fixed.

You act as if every single prostitute ever is doing it against their will.

I'm not saying that people choose to be hookers when they grow up, but there are options.

 

[Zzoram]

This is nonsense. I'm at work every day because I have a mortgage to pay, and I don't really want to be here. Am I an "endentured slave"? Sexual abuse as a child is terrible and tragic, but it doesn't force anyone to become anything they don't want to become. Like any traumatizing experience, you can either grow from it and become stronger, or let it consume you and decimate your life.

The statistics about how many children get abused have been ridiculous over the last few decades. If all those people became prostitutes, our society would collapse. A life of prostitution is an exception, not the rule. Abuse is no more the cause of prostitution than it is the cause women going into law enforcement.

Saying it's okay for a woman to offer sex for money, but it's illegal for a man to accept that offer is wrong. Unless there's a gun to the hooker's head, she's agreeing to a business transaction of her own free will.

You actually think there has to be a gun to a hooker's head for her to be forced into sex?

No you're not an endentured slave, because you can choose another job or give up your mortgage and move into a cheaper place.

The women and children forced into the sex trade are not so fortunate. They are often homeless and addicted to drugs, often unwillingly, as a method of control. They don't have the option of escape, they're being watched and will be beaten or killed if they try to leave.

 

[MarshallVaako]

I don't like paying for sex. It totally ruins the fun knowing the girl your having sex with is probably thinking how much she hates and is disgusted by you the entire time. That she is just waiting for you to finish so she can get paid, and if you just gave her money and told her she didn't have to do anything for it she would just say uhh thanks and run out the door. Prostitutes fake every emotion and orgasm, I get more intimacy from my hand and would rather be forever alone then pay for it; even if it was legal.

 

[ReBurn]

A combination of free market enterprise and reasonable government regulation can accommodate this growing demand.

 

[Tideas]

Prostitution should be legalised, taxed, monitored and regulated properly. It's not that hard to solve all of the issues associated with prostitution really.

why does everyone think that with legalization, human trafficking is going to go away?

Is everyone here that naive?

 

[Zzoram]

why does everyone think that with legalization, human trafficking is going to go away?

Is everyone here that naive?

Especially since this:

the legalization of prostitution in the Netherlands, Germany, and much of Australia led to an explosive growth in demand that generated an increase in trafficking and other crimes.

 

[Orayn]

Saying it's okay for a woman to offer sex for money, but it's illegal for a man to accept that offer is wrong. Unless there's a gun to the hooker's head, she's agreeing to a business transaction of her own free will.

See, this is my where I base a good portion of my argument. I'm not a fan of legislation that essentially tells adults whether or not they consent.

 

[CrankyJay]

We just need this man to take care of this for us:

 

[AVclub]

The women and children forced into the sex trade are not so fortunate. They are often homeless and addicted to drugs, often unwillingly, as a method of control. They don't have the option of escape, they're being watched and will be beaten or killed if they try to leave.

Okay, just to be clear, giving people drugs against their will, beating them, kidnapping them, and killing them, are all against the law. Those who do these types of things should be punished with the greatest severity.

A guy agreeing to pay a woman who offers sexual favors for a specific price should NOT be lumped in with the people above. He's a customer who is likely unaware of all the stuff you claim is happening in the background. Just like someone in the US buying shoes may not know that they were created by underage forced labor.

So again, saying it's illegal to BUY sex, but not sell it, is wrong. If they want to punish people who are hurting people, there are already laws on the books to do that without criminalizing the act of purchasing sex.

 

[J-Rod]

I agree that most folks are probably way off base in gauging how much the women like it. It seems like every time prostitution is brought up on the interwebs, someone goes in the "US is so sexually oppressed" or "some women want to do it and like it/find it liberating" speil. I look at it by thinking of how attractive the average woman/man is that can't get dick on their own, and imagining having to get about 10 of them off a day. It seems like the only thing that could make me hate sex.

 

[ReBurn]

why does everyone think that with legalization, human trafficking is going to go away?

Is everyone here that naive?

It won't. Just because it's legal doesn't mean that people won't be exploited for monetary gain. And government likes to think that legislation is proactive and protects people. But enforcement is always reactive and by that time it is usually too late to prevent damage. I'll spare you a stupid analogy and say that from what I can see regulation is more about the stick that goes along with noncompliance than it is about the carrot to not do the bad thing in the first place. When money is on the line it increasingly becomes worth the risk.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

What a ridiculous study.

Prostitution is illegal almost everywhere. Of course those who seek it are more likely to be violent.

If it was legal and regulated like a massage parlor or something, I doubt the average customer would be a rape fan.

Marijuana is illegal in some countries.

 

[The Elite]

I simply do not understand the concept of paying for sex or paying a woman to remove her clothes.

Seriously?

You really don't understand there are people out there who can't get laid. Ugly people, incredibly insecure people. They all need the sex too.

 

[Jangocube]

Have never and will never pay for a prostitute. Just seems fucking gross.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

The "thats all a date is anyway, amirite guys" sentiment kills me inside everytime I see someone mention it. Ugh, thats just so wrong.

 

[CrankyJay]

Have never and will never pay for a prostitute. Just seems fucking gross.

She doesn't know where you've been either.

 

[crazygambit]

Sweden has it right. Stop arresting prostitutes, they're victims not criminals. Arrest the Johns, they're the ones creating the demand that results in more people being victimized and forced into prostitution.

But isn't that like arresting the junkie instead of the drug dealer?

 

[jmdajr]

I agree that most folks are probably way off base in gauging how much the women like it. It seems like every time prostitution is brought up on the interwebs, someone goes in the "US is so sexually oppressed" or "some women want to do it and like it/find it liberating" speil. I look at it by thinking of how attractive the average woman/man is that can't get dick on their own, and imagining having to get about 10 of them off a day. It seems like the only thing that could make me hate sex.

once the things you like become a job you can eventually hate it..

 

[Zzoram]

Seriously?

You really don't understand there are people out there who can't get laid. Ugly people, incredibly insecure people. They all need the sex too.

And people who want to have sex with children.

A large part of human trafficking is forcing children into the sex trade, since they're easier to control and train if you get them while they're young.

 

[ReBurn]

What a ridiculous study.

Prostitution is illegal almost everywhere. Of course those who seek it are more likely to be violent.


If it was legal and regulated like a massage parlor or something, I doubt the average customer would be a rape fan.

And just imagine the increase in reciprocal orgasm.

Seriously?

You really don't understand there are people out there who can't get laid. Ugly people, incredibly insecure people. They all need the sex too.

Unless there's some physical condition where lack of sex will lead to death I'm not sure that it is as much a need as much as it is a really strong desire. But I get what you're saying.

 

[Black_Stride]

Fixed.

GO read The Intimate Adventures of a London Call Girl and watch The Girlfriend Experience my friend...not all escorts are sex slaves.
Call one up just for your own research see her apartment, her lifestyle....they aint slaves...if they are, they are very well paid very well groomed slaves.

 

[crimzonflame]

That's the problem, the prostitutes are not "willing", but the Johns love to pretend that they are to feel better about themselves. Prostitutes are almost always people who were sexually abused as children and then later addicted to drugs and pimped out. Just because they're not fighting off the Johns doesn't mean they want to be there. They're traumatized endentured slaves.

You can make the same argument against the porn business. Are you against porn?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

why does everyone think that with legalization, human trafficking is going to go away?

Is everyone here that naive?

Beyond legalization you need regulation. Require a SS Card, valid in state ID, and a proof of residence to get a license for prostitution. Make all transactions transparent and electronic. Give the girls direct deposit banking accounts so you know the money is going to them. Regulate hours. Blood testing. Drug testing. Sanitation. Promote a brothel model over street walking. Make it a crime to buy sex outside of officially registered sex workers.

It's not the kind of thing you can take lightly if you want to remove the criminal element, much like legalizing any drug like marijuana.

If guys can hide receipts from the wives for porn, strip clubs, and that one night a month out with the guys, I'm sure they can hide a prostitution receipt.

 

[Enkidu]

See, this is my where I base a good portion of my argument. I'm not a fan of legislation that essentially tells adults whether or not they consent.

It's not like selling sex is encouraged. The overall goal in Sweden is to pretty much get rid of prostitution. However, simply criminalizing it would be counterproductive since the women selling sex are often the victims and shouldn't be sent to jail.

 

[Zzoram]

But isn't that like arresting the junkie instead of the drug dealer?

No, because a drug dealer is not equivalent to a 12 year old girl having sex with 10 strange men a day because she was abused by her father and ran away from home and was caught by human traffickers.

I can't support any law that would arrest that girl as a criminal, even if the cops waited until she turned 18 to finally arrest her.

 

[Mudkips]

I was intrigued by the following:

How do they know this? Another plausible explanation for the drop Sweden might very well be that such prostitution is forced undergound and is less noticable (and vice verca for the other countries). And in the same line, what are the statistics for the countries that have adopted the Swedish stance on prostitution? If (?) it is the case that legalization allways leads to more cases of forced prostitution and the Swedish model allways works as advertized, then it's obviously the way to go.

In my mind, trafficing and forced prostitution is the thing that makes buying or selling sex open for legislation. That socially hampered individuals are more likely to seek out prostitution as a means for their sexual needs doesn't seem strange to me, and doesn't reflect on the need for legislation. It does however hight the need to "catch" these people while younger and get them out of failed/abusive famelies, etc that I imagine could be the root cause of such caustic views on women. And that is regardelss of the legal routes that you choose.

Of course. Same with the war on drugs. If sex slavery was a huge problem (and it isn't in western nations - no actual statistics have ever shown it to be on the scale that is always implied/stated with these types of articles), and they wanted to fix it, the best way would be to legalize, regulate, and tax it. Same for drugs. But we have a lot of people who profit (monetarily and politically) off the war on drugs, so we keep it going, and hype up drugs and users as evil deadly scum who commit tons of ancillary crimes. Of course, it's the war on drugs itself that's the key motivator for those ancillary crimes.

Okay, just to be clear, giving people drugs against their will, beating them, kidnapping them, and killing them, are all against the law. Those who do these types of things should be punished with the greatest severity.

A guy agreeing to pay a woman who offers sexual favors for a specific price should NOT be lumped in with the people above. He's a customer who is likely unaware of all the stuff you claim is happening in the background. Just like someone in the US buying shoes may not know that they were created by underage forced labor.

So again, saying it's illegal to BUY sex, but not sell it, is wrong. If they want to punish people who are hurting people, there are already laws on the books to do that without criminalizing the act of purchasing sex.

Again, they don't want to punish people who are hurting people. They want to stir up some shit.



This is a terribly flawed, misandrist "article" that begs the question regarding forced prostitution, sex slavery, etc.

The vast, vast, majority of prostitutes, strippers, or other "sex workers" are not forced into it by some evil man. There has never been any evidence to support such a ridiculous claim.

Every 4 years there's a news story about how tens of thousands of sex slaves are going to be trafficked in to where the World Cup is being held. Every single time it's the same baseless story, and there are 0 cases of actual sex slavery. I believe the whole fucking thing started as a chain email in the 90s, and somehow morphed into "news" that gets recycled every 4 years. Just Google "World Cup Sex Slaves".

What does happen, in the US at least, is when hookers are arrested, they often get goaded and threatened into saying they were forced into it. "Hooker Arrested" isn't as good of a headline / campaign bullet point as "Sex Slave Ring Busted".

In short, the hysteria over some sex slave pandemic sweeping western nations is complete bullshit.

 

[ReBurn]

Beyond legalization you need regulation. Require a SS Card, valid in state ID, and a proof of residence to get a license for prostitution. Make all transactions transparent and electronic. Give the girls direct deposit banking accounts so you know the money is going to them. Regulate hours. Blood testing. Drug testing. Sanitation. Promote a brothel model over street walking. Make it a crime to buy sex outside of officially registered sex workers.

It's not the kind of thing you can take lightly if you want to remove the criminal element, much like legalizing any drug like marijuana.

Those requirements are how much of the human trafficking in the world starts. Many people end up as prostitutes trying to get those things.

 

[Oozinator]

I think women should simply provide sex to strangers out of politeness/goodwill, just like when you provide directions, lend a lighter or tell the time to someone you don't know.