OK I thought I understood how meeting another person in the galaxy could work given a procedural code...but now I cant. I gather we each buy a piece of the game at launch and become part of the master equasion on our disk or PC when we activate, but how and when are changes others could recognize instituted? When is their algorythm set changed and how does any change to the algorythms get on my PS4/PC? How and when would others' game or disk be updated? Continuously? Or only when you start up?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
No Man's Sky - 18 minute uninterrupted gameplay demo
- Thread starter amnesiac
- Start date
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
Where are you getting that from? When the game is launched, everyone will have 18 quintillion planets. Once a planet is discovered, the algorithm is set for you and anyone else who discovers that planet. You can play it offline so obviously those algorithms are already there as placeholders for you to discover. The whole game already exists on your PS4/PC in the form of an algorithm. You can upload data to the internet but that's just so you can name planets and discoveries such as what materials there are on that planet. Who knows.
Meeting someone else is so unlikely it's actually a singleplayer game. At the centre, things might change though.
>-Baron-Spamedi-<
Member
It's impossible to calculate with reasonable accuracy unless HG give us an idea of how many systems are actually in the starting galaxy.
That said, it's highly unlikely to bump into anyone or find traces of anyone towards the outer edge of the galaxy but the odds will rise of finding previously visited planets towards the centre. Even so it should still be a low chance of seeing another person. They would have to just happen to be in the same system, on the same planet, on the same section of the same land mass at exactly the same time as you.
I actually disagree with the bolded part if HG are creating the galaxy somewhat true to reality, as real galaxaies have sparse density around the edges and are more concentrated in the centre, I recognize people are going in a common direction, but the number of systems will still be more immense there. You would have a better chance circling the outer rim.
My prediction and guess (my guess has a high probabalilty of being right in my mind so I will spoiler it) is that if you go to the centre you will see
a black hole. If you go into it you will get transpoerted to a new galaxy and start over.
yeah but they have confirmed that it is not a single player game, its how ever many people buy the game on each system. Each system will have its own algorhythm and the possibility exists that you could be at the same place and time with any of the other people that bought on your system. You say you can upload stuff to the internet, but you didnt answer my question about how two poeple could meet. It is confirmed that two people can meet, I just dont know how that would work and at what point the two games include each other? It would have to real time upload of data online I guess, impossible otherwise.
irrotational
Member
The game is essentially a giant set of equations that cover the whole.universe. You plug in the coordinates of where you are and the game uses rules to work out what is around you... E.g. Whether you are in deep space, or near a planet, or on its surface.
What is pretty unknown is how the game stores and communicates changes that have been made by players to the results of the formulae.
So when you blast holes in the planet, how does the game remember where they are and then tell every other player where they are so that their version of the game knows to render the holes.
I'd guess that when a player visits an upload station to record their discoveries and names things, it also uploads any major modifications they have made to the results of the formula
formula.
Then when a new player flies in their game does a check against the central server to see what names and modifications need to be downloaded, if any.
Edit. Answering your follow on question, I don't know. The networking code would need to be quite different to support two players walking around each other in real time, and instantly uploading what they're doing. This seems.like a lot of extra code to write for very few circumstances....
They are purposefully not being clear about the differences or similarities between PC and PS4 universes or cross-play:
yes I agree they would not want to share what they havent decided yet...but the fact remains it will come out on at least two platforms and Sean confirmed that they would not provide the opporutnity for two players from different platforms to meet. He did however confirm that two players could meet on the same platform. He even expanded and said it would be the only way for you to see what you look like, i.e. someone from another game records what you look like when they see you. Sorry, despite my voracious appetite for info on this game, I did not save bookmarks or links back to what I have watched and read. But I think I have got this right. I guess there is nothing stopping HG from changing their mind about stuff though or running into snags that maybe make it impossible to bank on what they said previously.
Yeah I can understand the coordinates thing pretty well, but dont know how the algorhythm works enough to be able to fathom mulitple players. He did confirm that two playders could meet so it must be possible, and simple enough that either they did it already or are confident they could work it into the mix before the release...it would be a huge turn off if there was no chance for two players to meet....and yes I realize the chances approach zero as it is!
And as an aside, I cant agree with those that think the chances of meeting others will be easier in the centre, especially if they make it a realistic galaxy and the centre is a supermassive black hole. He has confirmed black holes (plural) but there so very rarely is more than one per galaxy, in fact, the only time there is, is when two separate galaxies begin to collide, and each of their black holes has not merged yet. It would be cool if our starting galaxy was a merging one, but I doubt it. He has already said the game is a universe, not just one galaxy, whether we can go to another galaxy is doubtful, but what really else could he surpirse us with at the centre? Either you get sucked into a black hole and die or you warp to anew galaxy (with an extremely similar algorhythm and code to the one you were jsut in); only the first is realistic and neither mean you could easily find another player.
Pro tip to meet with a friend: huge spoiler if I am right....
.go to the outer rim instead, stars further apart and there is a final line of stars there, simply choose a common angle from the centre and go until stars run out, then move clockwise or counter along the edge. I think the map you get shows where you are in the galaxy with relation to the centre so you could choose to meet on the top bottom left or right of the map as it is positioned on the screen, and although it would takea week or month to get approximately close to meeting sector, warp stations can be used if you are on the wrong side. Might still be infantissimally small chance to meet, but at least fewer stars to choose from there.
No way dood. That kind of mentality is so whack. I'm sure there'll be players who do that, but as a reasonable human being, exploring a galaxy for the first time, I'm not going to be murdering things the first time I see them. Killing should be a last resort. We should aspire to be better, to boldly go where no person has gone before, to...you get the idea. So ends today's lesson, kids.
I want that. Planets of autonomous walking cities, last remaining remnants of a forgotten civilization, awaiting the end by yearning for those that built them. That's actually kind of wonderful. I hope that's in the game. I want to see it.
Do they have a picture mode? Where you can create an album of your experiences? I mean separate from the ps4's screenshot ability?
Kind of, I think, the classification system for animals and plants etc is really detailed so it would not be much to add pictures of anything else to the options on your tool.
______________
okay new thought:
so lets say you did run into someone by accident...but you cant even wave or do sign language. HOWEVER, you could shoot the ground in such a way as to draw your steam or PSN handle. I think I will have to change my name on steam to a three letter name such that I can get the other person to find me on steam, then i can talk to them via head set. THere best be a community group that lays all this out ahead of time. Perhaps I could post this in the NMS group that's there, but I am so illietrate to start a new group or anything.
No, they have definitely decided what will happen at this point, unless they intend to release quite a bit into next year. IIRC they have never conformed anything about what does or doesn't happen on different platforms. They have been clear that there is a separate kind of multiplayer but it isn't the core of game:
He has also mentioned that chances of meeting others in the game are very slim, suggesting that it is a possibility:
They continually allude to a separate party being having control of the info they are asked relating to announcement of release date / actual release date / how the universe works on each / both platforms / VR compatibility. So the hold up now for info is more to do with that party - either Sony or Valve
OK I was able to find at least the written version of the interview I think I saw on video here:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...ng-of-no-man-s-sky-as-a-multiplayer-game.aspx
they basically say the way pllaeyrs will meet is going to be like Dark souls, i.e. on a portable lobby. I am guessing not the multiplayer of DS but the real time ghosts etc.
they also said there will be a central spot to leave messages and you can see messages from other places there! Cool!
Im still going to write my steam name in the sand and record the conversation with the person I meet if indeed we can communicate enough to find each other's steam handle.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
Again, where are you getting this from? Everyone has exactly the same universe to explore. It's just that the planets are created procedurally and exist only as an algorithm until someone approaches and lands there. It IS possible to meet someone but it's unlikely to ever happen. Let's say 1 million people buy this game. That means you have an 18 quintillion to 1 million chance of bumping into them, and that doesn't include the infinite space in between the planets, the size on the planets or the different times people will play. As you near the centre the possibility increases of course. Even if you put that 1 million people on the same planet it would be difficult to find someone.
You are a bit behind in the thread see post 3611: oh forget it, here it is:
this was the answer to my original question which was simply how withy be making it possible for two plaers to meet:
look Im not going to be able to find the link for that one but I know for a fact that Sean said he could not do cross-platform multiplayer. That;s all I meant with that statement, and yes his reaction to the question above was vague, but do you really think all PC and PS4 people will get the same server? THey may get the same algorythm but they may not, it would be easy not to as they have 6-7 builds (algorhythms) they are testing and will use whichever one is best. He basically admits he could give a different one to PC and Ps4 if thats what people wanted, but I meant to say PC and PS4 will be on different servers, they may indeed get the same algorhythm, although there is a chance they may not, as bugs that pop up on one build may need to ironed out differently depending on the platform. THey are using bots to explore the galaxy faster to uncover possible bugs. They could easily use different algorhythms...will be interesting to see what happens! Especially given walking sylos and such!
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
Ah, my mistake. Apologies.
TheCarrotKiller
Banned
New post on the Ps Blog: http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2015/08/03/41-amazing-things-you-might-not-know-about-no-mans-sky/
Yay for name-filters!
Yay for name-filters!
Lionheart1827
Member
I really hope this game launches with Morpheus, good god it would be perfect for it.
Pop
Member
Some pretty good info in there.
I wish they would just give a release date already.
That's exactly how it works
True, but I'm implying if you can punch in the coordinates so to speak and fly there so you can meet up with others or recommended planets
there will be sectors I think, but nothing specific until two people actually find the same planet and can go back there using their navigation compouter at the same time...still unfathomable amounts of choices in small areas. You will have warp stations, but I think these spit you out in random sectors, meaning it will literally take weeks to travel any great length accross the galaxy, even if you have been there before, I dont think its like "fast travel" in Skyrim. The point that HG is making is that space exploration is a lonely endeavor, even for advanced races that can travel at unthinkable speed or "warp" etc. Makes it understandable that we have not had evidence of aliens here on earth, despite the probability that someone, somewhere has the ability to visit us. I am still going to try to meet someone one else and will have my finger hoverving over my record button until I do!!!
I thought they might have announced it during being featured on IGN First, but gamescon is a good bet.
this sentinel-gta-wanted system is kind driving me away from this game... It's poorly implemented in GTA, so I don't expect any better here, and what we have seen in the 18 minutes video strenghtend my fears.
Once you are "wanted" it will most likely end in the death of the player, since you are not even allowed to fight back. If you do fight back you just increase your wanted-level and have to defend even more, thus increasing the wanted-level even further until it reaches max. and everyone is trying to murder you, all because you mined 1 ore to much or defended against an attacking t-rex :/
DHC-Shannow
Member
We don't know if the sensitivity of the sentinels was increased for the demo, like the likelihood of a thriving planet was. The recent PS blog post mentions you need to be spotted by a sentinel doing something wrong which didn't seem to be the case in the Ign footage.
that would be a welcome "change" (or feature). As it also never made sense to me in GTA, getting wanted level1 while commiting a crime in a lonely alley/corner/etc. without anyone nearby to see (and report the authority about) me
many systems dont even have sentinels. Some sectors of the galaxy are run by factions...this may mean the sentinels are less prominant there, but perhaps its possible you might have a greater chance of being pirated then....I dunno, but PLEase remember that SM has purposely left out details so that we can be surprised when stuff happens. I think people are going to be pleasntly surprised when the game turns out to have all kinds of details we were not suspecting from his vanilla descriptions and carefully selected footage.
Prototype Viktor
Member
See a protected planet and just leave. It'll take a few seconds
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
I posted this on another forum but I thought it would be interesting to get GAF's view on it:
Ever since No Man's Sky was announced and the first footage shown I've been following it closely. I've watched every single video on Youtube, from the little known guys to the more established Youtubers to the bigger sites. No search has gone unwatched. My main port of call is CobraTV though, because he presents very well and doesn't court contraversy for hits. I advise ALL No Man's Sky enthusiasts to subscribe to his channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_E2mF3O0J2pAk11n_WLeQQ
My main interest in the game has moved from the technical aspects of creating the universe and everything in it to the actual lore and what could be waiting at the centre of the universe. I began to realise there was the perfect opportunity for one of the biggest ironies in gaming history. I felt so convinced by this irony that I can't forget it; almost to the point of feeling I'll be disappointed if it isn't true.
The set up: Here we are, an unknown being, traveling through a universe that is completely procedurally generated. The grass, the trees, the creatures, the spaceships, the weopons, even the sounds the creatures make, and the music to some extent. The universe is ALL procedurally generated which is a marvelous technological achievement for a team of 13. Sean Murray is proud of this achievement and is constantly emphasising the vastness of it all. It IS to all tense and purposes 'infinite' just like our own universe. But that's 'the game', what about the lore?
The Revelation: The first thing that caught my eyes was the intriguing logo, a diamond with what appears to be a red cell in the centre (a red blood cell?). Here we have a logo that embraces at least ONE aspect of the game: the diamond shape, which is easily created using mathematics, but what about that more organic shape at it's 'centre' (centre being the opporative word here). I feel this logo somehow sums up everything but we perhaps can't see it yet.
I believe that at the centre of the universe is a machine (for now I'll call it God) and that the lore IS the revelation that not only is the game procedurally generated but the reality the game is representing. In other words, the game which is procedurally generated is about discovering that the universe and everything in it is procedurally generated. Do you see the delicious ironly in that? I humoured myself by considering the Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy (which I'm sure Sean would have read) and the meaning of life: 42, a numerical value depicting an organic universe. A red cell in the centre of a diamond. Today I spotted something that made me want to write this. Look at the number of this landing port that Sean Murray chose to demo:
Watch from 1:12: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp7jLJb6LIc
Ever since No Man's Sky was announced and the first footage shown I've been following it closely. I've watched every single video on Youtube, from the little known guys to the more established Youtubers to the bigger sites. No search has gone unwatched. My main port of call is CobraTV though, because he presents very well and doesn't court contraversy for hits. I advise ALL No Man's Sky enthusiasts to subscribe to his channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_E2mF3O0J2pAk11n_WLeQQ
My main interest in the game has moved from the technical aspects of creating the universe and everything in it to the actual lore and what could be waiting at the centre of the universe. I began to realise there was the perfect opportunity for one of the biggest ironies in gaming history. I felt so convinced by this irony that I can't forget it; almost to the point of feeling I'll be disappointed if it isn't true.
The set up: Here we are, an unknown being, traveling through a universe that is completely procedurally generated. The grass, the trees, the creatures, the spaceships, the weopons, even the sounds the creatures make, and the music to some extent. The universe is ALL procedurally generated which is a marvelous technological achievement for a team of 13. Sean Murray is proud of this achievement and is constantly emphasising the vastness of it all. It IS to all tense and purposes 'infinite' just like our own universe. But that's 'the game', what about the lore?
The Revelation: The first thing that caught my eyes was the intriguing logo, a diamond with what appears to be a red cell in the centre (a red blood cell?). Here we have a logo that embraces at least ONE aspect of the game: the diamond shape, which is easily created using mathematics, but what about that more organic shape at it's 'centre' (centre being the opporative word here). I feel this logo somehow sums up everything but we perhaps can't see it yet.
I believe that at the centre of the universe is a machine (for now I'll call it God) and that the lore IS the revelation that not only is the game procedurally generated but the reality the game is representing. In other words, the game which is procedurally generated is about discovering that the universe and everything in it is procedurally generated. Do you see the delicious ironly in that? I humoured myself by considering the Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy (which I'm sure Sean would have read) and the meaning of life: 42, a numerical value depicting an organic universe. A red cell in the centre of a diamond. Today I spotted something that made me want to write this. Look at the number of this landing port that Sean Murray chose to demo:
Watch from 1:12: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp7jLJb6LIc
Must. Have. News!
I really hope we get some sort of documentary dev diary at some point. As much as I'm jonesing for the game I'm also super curious about what this delay is all about and what the "positive" out of their control factor is that's caused it.
It better not be Morpheus as that's far too long to wait.
I really hope we get some sort of documentary dev diary at some point. As much as I'm jonesing for the game I'm also super curious about what this delay is all about and what the "positive" out of their control factor is that's caused it.
It better not be Morpheus as that's far too long to wait.
Icyflamez96
Member
No news, but you can reread this thread for some olds.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Heh, awesome, totally missed that. HHGttG is pretty much the best thing ever IMO. Man, I hope the universe seed they use for the shipped version is 42. Would be so beautiful.
That question/answer blog has finally got me cautiously intrigued.
I think I'm starting to get how this game works now. I do believe there is a central master server somewhere, but all it really does is share content between PS4 consoles at any given time when a player enters a zone. Those "zones" are either randomly generated on the fly for players first discovering them, OR they're preexisting constructs generated by other players PS4's that they have successfully uploaded to one of these "save game" points they're talking about.
First I've heard of the different ship types for different roles. I thought you only had the one that you constantly upgraded.
I think I'm starting to get how this game works now. I do believe there is a central master server somewhere, but all it really does is share content between PS4 consoles at any given time when a player enters a zone. Those "zones" are either randomly generated on the fly for players first discovering them, OR they're preexisting constructs generated by other players PS4's that they have successfully uploaded to one of these "save game" points they're talking about.
First I've heard of the different ship types for different roles. I thought you only had the one that you constantly upgraded.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Not quite how it works. It's not random generation, it's procedural, which generally (as in this case) means that given the same input (which will be a set of coordinates) the mathematical algorithms used will always return the same results. So there's no "initial generation" that is then shared with other players, the same content will always be generated at the same location no matter who gets there first. There's no need to upload this to a server, since the game will generate it the same way for everyone anyway. You could play this game completely offline and still get the same generated content as everyone else. What's uploaded is discoveries and such, along with major changes made to a planet (such as depleting all its resources, which the game will need to know about so it doesn't generate those for the next player who gets there).
Haunted
Member
That's developer talk for an ongoing bug with spawn coordinates, btw.
But I won't begrudge anyone's imagination going wild when it comes to this game.
valkillmore
Member
That's exactly what Sean Murray wants to hear. They're seeking excitement, not hype.
irrotational
Member
Thanks for that link - very useful and the first time I have seen them give some clue as to how player-meets-player might work.
Quick comment on "random" versus "proceedural"....for most computing applications they are essentially the same thing. Computers cannot produce truly random numbers (unless they are connected up to a physical device like a radiation detector or a lava lamp)...what they can do is have a set of code/formulas that produce what look and feel like random numbers...BUT they will produce exactly the same random numbers each and every time you run the code!
This means you can have a procedurally built universe that uses "random" numbers and it will still consistently build the same universe each and every time, it just looks random.
Say for example you want each star to have either 0 or 1 planets with a 50:50 chance but you want it to be "random" for each star. Stick in a random number generator, which typically give sets of number that look random between 0 and 1....and for each star pick a "random" number from the list and assign a planet or not.
To any one player, within the universe, stars having planets will look completely random...HOWEVER if that player compares notes with another player, they will see it is not random at all because every star that has a planet in the first persons game, will also have a planet in the second persons game.
Quick comments on multiplayer:-
There seem to be two main multiplayer functions in the game. The first and biggest is the central database which records the names that players give to stars, planets, animals, etc. Each player uploads their discoveries to this database at certain upload stations. Then every time you fly into a new system the game can check in the central database if someone has already named it and the things in it.
The second is a small joinable lobby that you carry around with you as you explore. The game will track where you are and the other player is, if you get close enough it will join both of you into the same "lobby" so that you can see each other (in space or on a planet), presumably via some P2P connection.
YEs I beleive you are right at least in a matter of speaking, as I'm sure I heard Murray speak of how randomness is a part of their procedural technique, yet it can not be called a classical "random" generation as the same world will pop up based on the algorhythm being the same for everyone. I am very sceptical that they are using straight RNG as you say though. The way I understand it is that indeed they are generating random star systems and planets to the tune of 18 quintillion planets. However, the rules they apply will ensure wacky and crazy randomness wont overrirde what they a re hoping to achieve for the universe. THe fact that it ends up being the same algorhythm for everyone is more a testament to the rules they apply to the RNG, not that it is simple RNG in and of itself. THis is why they have bots to explore 5-6 different builds (different algorhythms) so that they can choose the best one in the end to send to market, perhaps even different platforms. They could easily decide that a certain build will be better for PC vs. PS4 for example.