I don't understand why you think it's some killer argument to suggest that the people who support violence against Nazis are not out right now looking for Nazis to commit violence upon.
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NYT: Life and Combat for Republicans at Berkeley
- Thread starter Oblivion
- Start date
I don't understand why you think it's some killer argument to suggest that the people who support violence against Nazis are not out right now looking for Nazis to commit violence upon.
I dont think one has to encourage Nazi punching to be happy when a Nazi gets punched.
Likewise, antifa has done tons of things in its history, most of it non-violent. The violent parts just get publicized the most.
The problem with these discussions however is that there is no actual ability for people to step outside their present moment and look at things as part of a wider historical context.
First of all, it should immediately be a red flag to every intellectually honest individual when someone claims they are protesting for "free speech." Free speech is not actually under attack in any significant way. Flag burning has been ruled legal by the Supreme Court, for christ's sake.
And as a way of enhancing this context, note how the few times someone with major power makes a questionable comment that ACTUALLY should make anyone who is this strong a believer of free speech nervous (Such as this or this), notice how this is never a catalyst for a protest. In neither Berkeley blocking a Nazi from speaking or Trump making outrageous comments that threaten free speech is there any actual likelihood of free speech being under attack. But why is it that the far less important event is the one protested, but not the leader of the free world? Could the answer be any more obvious?
These people can never see discrimination or intimidation when it comes to minorities. Absolutely NEVER. Any welfare recipient is a lazy scumbag on the governments teet to these morons. It's all bootstraps. Slavery ended 5000 years ago. Whatever! And yet, the second people come out and enforce consequences for someone trying to advocate the genocide of black folk, it is the REPUBLICANS who are facing DISCRIMINATION because the college is so liberal and they don't accept their bigoted views.
This shit is bonkers if it wasn't so fucking transparent.
The events that have been happening at Berkeley are not about free speech, they're about giving Nazi's just enough plausible deniability to slowly get people comfortable with the idea of these sociopaths coming to your town and disseminating their horror house of ideas. It's about getting enough liberal moderate pieces of shit to scold their fellow liberals for being too ANGRY or throwing too many GARBAGE CANS or that one piece of paper being burned or someone being maced. It's about sowing discord among the ranks so we're just preoccupied with fighting each other to notice that we've suddenly given this radical monsters enough of an opening to grow further. To normalize their "white power" ideology, in the context of a country that literally voted for an open racist and misogynist who puts jew hating Steve Bannon white supremacist on his staff.
So let me just say you moderates have had your conversation. You lost. Your conversations made this country worse. It's ok, we understand why you didn't realize until too late that we're at war for the soul of this country. Ask any black man or woman, though, and they'll tell you they've always known. They don't have the luxury of entertaining that lesser of two evils vomit. Their families and communities have always been at stake.
So when some Antifa punches a Nazi, think about the thousands of time throughout history that someone actually had the spine to do what the majority of us would never do, because we confined ourselves by the petty rules of society while everything around us burned. They took the heat for us, they did the hard thing, they went to jail and suffered the pain. But at the end of the day when you're punching Nazi's, some of us are going to understand and smile.
This Berkeley shit is just an excuse for neo nazi's to publicize their ideology and try to push liberals as the intolerant ones and get us fighting amongst ourselves. But think of how fucked up it makes you as a person that when given the choice between fighting people who advocate for committing genocide on blacks or giving interviews to the NYT about how lonely and discriminated against a person must be because they hold Republican political views on campus... they chose what they chose.
Life is all about such choices. It defines these people, just like it defined those who voted for Trump. Nobody is so dumb they don't realize what they are or who they are. These monsters know. And far too many liberals keep falling for this shit.
Protest hard, scream louder, drown them out, make them flee your campus. Fight the legal battles later. Because as far as I'm concerned, there's no more time for half-measures.
Likewise, antifa has done tons of things in its history, most of it non-violent. The violent parts just get publicized the most.
The problem with these discussions however is that there is no actual ability for people to step outside their present moment and look at things as part of a wider historical context.
First of all, it should immediately be a red flag to every intellectually honest individual when someone claims they are protesting for "free speech." Free speech is not actually under attack in any significant way. Flag burning has been ruled legal by the Supreme Court, for christ's sake.
And as a way of enhancing this context, note how the few times someone with major power makes a questionable comment that ACTUALLY should make anyone who is this strong a believer of free speech nervous (Such as this or this), notice how this is never a catalyst for a protest. In neither Berkeley blocking a Nazi from speaking or Trump making outrageous comments that threaten free speech is there any actual likelihood of free speech being under attack. But why is it that the far less important event is the one protested, but not the leader of the free world? Could the answer be any more obvious?
These people can never see discrimination or intimidation when it comes to minorities. Absolutely NEVER. Any welfare recipient is a lazy scumbag on the governments teet to these morons. It's all bootstraps. Slavery ended 5000 years ago. Whatever! And yet, the second people come out and enforce consequences for someone trying to advocate the genocide of black folk, it is the REPUBLICANS who are facing DISCRIMINATION because the college is so liberal and they don't accept their bigoted views.
This shit is bonkers if it wasn't so fucking transparent.
The events that have been happening at Berkeley are not about free speech, they're about giving Nazi's just enough plausible deniability to slowly get people comfortable with the idea of these sociopaths coming to your town and disseminating their horror house of ideas. It's about getting enough liberal moderate pieces of shit to scold their fellow liberals for being too ANGRY or throwing too many GARBAGE CANS or that one piece of paper being burned or someone being maced. It's about sowing discord among the ranks so we're just preoccupied with fighting each other to notice that we've suddenly given this radical monsters enough of an opening to grow further. To normalize their "white power" ideology, in the context of a country that literally voted for an open racist and misogynist who puts jew hating Steve Bannon white supremacist on his staff.
So let me just say you moderates have had your conversation. You lost. Your conversations made this country worse. It's ok, we understand why you didn't realize until too late that we're at war for the soul of this country. Ask any black man or woman, though, and they'll tell you they've always known. They don't have the luxury of entertaining that lesser of two evils vomit. Their families and communities have always been at stake.
So when some Antifa punches a Nazi, think about the thousands of time throughout history that someone actually had the spine to do what the majority of us would never do, because we confined ourselves by the petty rules of society while everything around us burned. They took the heat for us, they did the hard thing, they went to jail and suffered the pain. But at the end of the day when you're punching Nazi's, some of us are going to understand and smile.
This Berkeley shit is just an excuse for neo nazi's to publicize their ideology and try to push liberals as the intolerant ones and get us fighting amongst ourselves. But think of how fucked up it makes you as a person that when given the choice between fighting people who advocate for committing genocide on blacks or giving interviews to the NYT about how lonely and discriminated against a person must be because they hold Republican political views on campus... they chose what they chose.
Life is all about such choices. It defines these people, just like it defined those who voted for Trump. Nobody is so dumb they don't realize what they are or who they are. These monsters know. And far too many liberals keep falling for this shit.
Protest hard, scream louder, drown them out, make them flee your campus. Fight the legal battles later. Because as far as I'm concerned, there's no more time for half-measures.
SolicitorPirate
Member
I have a different takeaway from the election. Persuasion is difficult and resource intensive, especially in a highly politicized environment like the US. Many people tie their personal identity to their politics, and it's incredibly difficult to change those hearts and minds.
Yes, there are persuadable moderates, but identifying them and crafting messaging for them is still resource intensive.
I think the more efficient strategy lies in encouraging and energizing your voter base and depressing opposition bases.
I've protested and gotten into scuffles with all manner of slime balls. No I've never punched one square in face but its come very close. I'm often more worried they have a gun and will shoot me.
Think you misinterpreted my statement a bit. Physical violence? No, absolutely not. But, being the only conservative in the classroom? Yeah, that might happen. A lot of the article is students whining about how they feel alienated because they happen to be the only right leaning person in their class. I don't feel especially sorry for people who have to "endure" this "hardship."
These Nazis are the good ones, the kind my grandma likes. Not the bad ones from Germany.
Yeah, it's one thing to say "fascism is bad", another thing to support violently attacking people, which seems to be tolerated here. And where do you draw the line? There's posters in this thread calling these folks "nazis" and "proto-facists" (which I don't see at all in their comments).
Also the keyboard warriors here are so lol
Dude Abides
Banned
You could do that if you learned everything you know about Marxism from Jordan Peterson. Or your dog.
Metalingus5150
Member
All you need to know is they wanted to give Milo a platform to publicly shame undocumented students and blast their public info.
Personally I consider them fools for constantly supporting a party that hates them.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Sort of amused at the idea that all college professors are radical Marxists trying to radicalize the youth. I literally sit in class to learn about politics and policy all day and of my professors I know the views of, one was a libertarian, one was a German liberal, one is like a normal-ish New Deal liberal, and one is a liberal-ish guy who also likes Kasich.
I've never had professors talk about seizing the means of production except when explicitly covering Marxism.
I've never had professors talk about seizing the means of production except when explicitly covering Marxism.
this is a bit late but I'd like to say that David Frum is probably responsible for more suffering in the world than Milo will ever accomplish.
lmao something tells me you know barely anything about Marxism.
Fenderputty
Banned
Who said respect? I don't respect Coulter. I don't respect this Berkeley student either, honestly. I have no idea what this has to do with my argument against violence against Nazis when Pigeon seemingly thinks everyone on the right is a Nazi.
Killer argument? My argument regarding the support of violence against what you think are Nazis has nothing to do with this. It's just an observation. I could be wrong and you could be successfully walking around spitting on and punching republicans (Nazis ? Sorry I meant Nazis), I just seriously doubt that.
Thank God for Amir0x. Shit.
mm their past had that too
just now it has seized control and it is being open with their contempt for minorities, women, immigrants.
People have got to understand this is war now and take appropriate action. Speak to them with the contempt they earned, and fight for power in every election as if the fate of this country is on the line. Because it is.
2Smashed4U
Banned
These aren't run of the mill, average Joe blue collar Trump voters. They're true believers who run a political organization on a college campus.
They know what they're doing.
TestOfTide
Banned
Show me the post where Pigeon claimed that everyone on the right is a Nazi.
I've said it earlier in the thread and I'll say it again. These Berkley republicans aren't getting treated like shit for inviting David Frum or Condi Rice or Bill Kristol. They are getting treated like shit for inviting Ann Coulter and Milo.
Pigeon and I are rightfully calling out the fact that the kind of person that thinks Ann Coulter and Milo are worth giving a platform are the kind of person that doesn't deserve any sort of respect.
And I bring up her shitty comment on the Kent State shooting because it perfectly encapsulates the irony of these so-called-moderate-college-republicans claiming to defend free speech.
If you swapped "Antifa" for "white soldier" and "Nazi" for "muslim/jew" this post seems like the sort of thing they might post on Stormfront.
I just wrote a whole thing about how I don't think everybody on the right is a Nazi and you responded to it. Admittedly, you said you didn't understand it, which I guess explains the response here. Maybe read it more carefully?
Exhibit A., insane post 9,389 from Polari dropping what must be his most record breaking false equivalency
Again, while this may come as a shock to you, "Nazis are bad" and "purge the lesser races" are not actually equivalent moral ideas and so arguments that equate the two aren't very good arguments.
TestOfTide
Banned
Does rational wiki have a page yet on the fallacy of "please tolerate my intolerance"?
Cause if not, they really need one.
I think my favorite part is where he chose to replace "antifa" with "white soldier" because he kinda realized how bad it would look to just flip "antifa" into "nazi".
Spine_Ripper
Member
Of course the one and only time I see my city on GAF and NYT, it's associated with a dumbass. Kids facebook page is him promoting his stance against "POLITICAL TERRORISM." He even brags about taking a photo with the edgelord Milo
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1809889906000376&set=pcb.1809889949333705&type=3&theater
I refuse to believe he has been punched in the face lol
Fenderputty
Banned
He litteraly equated these Berkeley republicans complaining about being hit and spit on with the Nuremberg trials. The rest of this is basically obfuscation. I never once nor am I still advocating for respect.
Ain't no slippery slopes at the end of a nazi getting punched in the goddamn throat, essentially.
I'm not even telling someone to go out and punch a Nazi. I'm not telling anyone to do that. But when it comes to a group that is rapidly growing, that helped seize power and install actual white supremacists in the White House it is ok to recognize that things have changed and the response to such behavior is correspondingly going to change. When an organization which has members that are willing to stand up and do the hard thing responds this way, it's OK to smile and understand that these things may sometime be necessary in history.
Polari can make these half-assed arguments because that's what he does, because he knows as well as I do that the second we start exploring history any pretense that violence has not frequently worked or that fascism in particular has not been time after time fought against using such methods (extremely effectively, mind), his entire false dichotomy falls apart.
Nuance is important:
1. Being happy a Nazi got punched is not the same as advocating a Nazi gets punched.
2. Free speech is not under attack(in America), so when someone says "they're just defending free speech" it is safe to assume they are not actually doing so and are complicit in defending racists/being racist themselves.
3. Within historical context, there are always people on a spectrum, from least extreme actions to most extreme. And at any given time, one or another point on the spectrum might see results. That includes when things unfortunately get to violence.
4. Shutting down the ability for Neo Nazi's to have venues is extremely effective. Richard Spencer has canceled events, openly noted he's afraid to go out, reduced the number of speeches he has given since and has to spend way more money on security just to get around. Is this a success or not?
5. Whether you advocate violence or not, are you able to objectively admit when violence leads to a favorable outcome?
2Smashed4U
Banned
It's called the paradox of tolerance, I believe it's an "actual" logical fallacy.
Very true, because in pretty much every historical, pop culture and imaginary sense:
Nazi=Muslim/Jew
That was an olympic level pole vault into breaking the false equivalency record on the books.
My point in that post was that if people invite white supremacists to campus it's pretty rich to complain that people are rude to them afterwards.
If you think the Nuremberg reference was over the top, maybe so! I stand by all my other references to Nazis in the thread though.
TestOfTide
Banned
Probably because these Berkley republicans feel they are best represented by giving platform to:
- Ann Coulter, a woman who has constantly advocated for violence and loves being a Limbaugh style nazi bitch.
- Milo Yianoppolis, a guy so reprehensible he got banned from twitter, disinvited from CPAC (as in he got disinvited from the place that had Steve fucking Bannon speak), and lost a book deal for heinous shit like defending pedophilia and using his twitter followers as a harassment mechanism.
No where has Pigeon equated ALL conservatives with Nazis.
Fenderputty
Banned
I'll take this as an admittion that your post was mostly word babble and that you never meant to equate whiney republicans with actual Nazis at the Nuremberg trials
You should probably get your references in order while advocating for violence. Somone could get hurt
I meant to equate the BCR with a white supremacist group. Because they are one!
TestOfTide
Banned
Or:
He meant to equate whiney republicans ,who feel they are best represented by scumbags like Milo and Ann, with Nazis at the Nuremberg Trials.
Do you get the difference?
IrishNinja
Member
because the narrative that hillary & co indulged too much "identity politics" is some shit bernie & co get from buying the dumb cultural war taglines form a disingenuous right that plays with the liberal instinct to compromise
if calling a group a "basket of deplorables" (rather than the more obvious "shower of cunts") is the worst thing & pushes said group to support the most openly white supremacist/misogynistic/etc candidate in forever now, perhaps doing more for your base or that half the country that doesn't vote would be wiser than coddling such a group
also this
sure, that seems to be the dems' assesment too - given the changing demographics & such, i can't imagine a more uselessly defeatist attitude though
Fenderputty
Banned
Yes? Why do you think this makes it better?
It is worth noting as well that people like Polari cleverly disguise their intentions, in order to allow these monsters to wield their own speech to dramatic results. People like Milo openly weaponize their audience, leading to events like this or like this where Milo harassed a transgender student.
Yet we are supposed to sit here while these people cause emotional trauma to victims, degrade entire groups of minorities and LGBT, and advocate for killing people for who they were born as. We're supposed to pretend that it's OK to allow these people to speak, as if it's merely about the difference in how one would approach the entitlement state. No, people shouldnt go out and demand they arent given a venue. They shouldnt angrily protest and try to shut it down, no.
We're not talking about protesting a fucking conservative prospectus on state's rights. We're talking about people who are trying to hide behind the veil of free speech's broad protections in this country so they can be allowed to spread attitudes which will inevitably, as a very feature of the ideology, lead to death and destruction for minorities and their communities and families.
And they want us to be self-righteous when someone ends up turning angry and feeling so frustrated that they sometimes hit a Nazi? Fuck outta here.
TestOfTide
Banned
Because people who feel the need to actively promote Ann fucking Coulter and Milo fucking Yianopolis DESERVE to be compared to Nazis?
Fenderputty
Banned
I believe they should be called out, protested etc etc.
I do not believe Ann Coulter is a Nazi even though she is garbage. Nor do I think the term should be used loosely as it belittles its origin. I personally don't agree with advocating for violence, I sure as shit am not going to be cool with advocating for violence against tacit supporters of Trumpism.
I believe I can be against violence while also not condoning giving racism a platform
boiled goose
good with gravy
This.
This is not ghw bush. This is not even d rumsfeld. This is Fucking milo and Coulter. Outright bigots. Coulter constantly complains about the Browning of america.
Swindled into voting Trump? Ok. Still support Trump? He is surrounded by Sessions and Fucking Bannon. Outright racists. This is not your daddy's conservatism. This is Jim Crow and Black codes level shit. If you support this administration you are either a completely ignorant willful moron or a racist.
First, as someone who is part Jewish and who has old family who were literally in the holocaust, I will take the time to say I'm not personally concerned that calling people who are actually advocating for the same outcomes and policies as Nazi's 'belittles' the origins of actual 1930s Nazi's. It's a ridiculous concept. First of all, Nazi is an ideology, and many of these people call themselves Nazi's. Secondly, the only difference between a Nazi and a Neo Nazi is that the second hasn't been given sufficient enough power to enact the same policies. That does not mean we do not label a Nazi a Nazi, because there was a time when the actual Hitler Nazi's lacked the power to do these things too. Until the second they weren't.
Secondly, Ann Coulter can be labeled whatever you like her to be, it doesn't change that she is an abhorrent monstrous racist who openly attends White Nationalist hate group Gala's and regularly dog whistles to blatant anti-semitism. At some point, it becomes you juggling with semantics to try to find a way not to label someone the awful thing they actually are.
Because really, who gives a shit? The reason Ann Coulter shouldnt be invited is STILL because she regularly endorses and spouts racist, hate speech non-stop and advocates policies aggressively racist and, yes, even misogynistic. Are we gonna tip toe around labeling monsters as such? Because either way, you have to be a grotesque human being to think it's OK to invite her to speak, and either way it is appropriately to loudly protest and try to shut her down. The reason these Republicans are hated is because they are detestable people inviting horrific human beings to stir the pot.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I said Frum is probably responsible for more harm than Milo can ever do but Rumsfeld is definitely responsible for more human suffering than Milo could ever dream of accomplishing.
Please stop normalizing neocons everyone. Trump is just as evil and crooked but let's stop saying that people with as relatively little power aren't as bad as fucking Rumsfeld just because they're more overt with their callous lack of regard for human life.
I've been to most of these Berkeley protests and I completely agree with you. This isn't about free speech. It's about hate speech. It blows my mind how we've come so far in the last 50 odd years yet we learned so little
Lord Frieza
Member
This thread was worth it just to see Polari get banned
Fenderputty
Banned
While I respect your opinions on the term, I'm still not comfortable with it's casual use. Has Coulter made comments about ethnic cleansing? That's a serious question btw, I didn't think so, but I have no clue and your first paragraph seems to imply she may have. Maybe Nazi is a more apt term for her than I realize, even if she hasn't made those comments ...
Let me be clear. I'm not saying Berkeley doesn't / shouldnt have the right to prevent hate speech in their campuses. I think Berkley should continue to tell Coulter and Milo to fuck off. I think protesting their speeches is fine too. I'm just drawing a line when it comes to punching and spitting on these Berkeley republicans.
I've been to most of these Berkeley protests and I completely agree with you. This isn't about free speech. It's about hate speech. It blows my mind how we've come so far in the last 50 odd years yet we learned so little
well if nothing else, i wanted to say thanks for being willing to go on the front lines especially in these protests where the intensity is such that there's always a good chance things will get heated and maybe even wild. Need more like you willing to be there when the going gets tough.
It's already been an exhausting few months in 2017, protests seemingly every week. Never seen such a fever in the grassroots community since I've been involved in politics. The anger is real.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Yup. Shocking it hasn't happened sooner.