Dont use wikis or Google to look up names that sound familiar. You can get spoiled easily
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OK nerds, you win. Song of Ice and Fire is gud.
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Dont use wikis or Google to look up names that sound familiar. You can get spoiled easily
blainethemono
Member
You don't really know 100% what happens because there's a ton of extra characters and stuff in the books and a lot of stuff has been changed.
They don't take too long to read either due to the short chapters and the POV style keeping you reading (as long as you just read from beginning to end and don't try to look ahead to see whose chapter is up next)
GentlemanCrow
Member
I started reading after episode five of season one. I finished the first book ready for the next episode. I only had to retread a bit but the books are better and add more insight, do it.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
a billion fucking times this...
Or at the least use the "Game of Thrones" wiki, and not "A Wiki of Ice and Fire", as the GoT wiki is just show stuff.
blainethemono
Member
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Man I wish I knew about this earlier...
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
That would be awesome actually! I commute to school (hour there and a hour back), but the audiobooks are around $40 on iTunes, any cheaper alternatives? I realize that is cheaper then most video games, but I would rather read when I'm at home then listen to an audiobook.
Good advice, I'll make sure to tread lightly.
Bookmarked.
Thank you.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I used Audible and their early membership discount prices were good for the first two books.
So, ASoS.
There are a couple of great character arcs in it, namely Jaime and
, but on the whole I was disappointed with the book. I do not understand the praise it got at all.
Example:
Still, part of me really wants to keep going, despite the book feeling like extended punishment at times. Partly because I've grown to care about, or at least want to know the fate of so many characters. And I want to see if GRRM's endgame is anywhere along the lines of what I think it is.
I'm going to take a long break from the books to catch up on season 2 and 3 of the shows, and then decide whether to carry on with the next two books.
There are a couple of great character arcs in it, namely Jaime and
the Hound, and his relationship with Arya
Example:
The Red Wedding.
Ned's death in A Game of Thrones was brutal, like a kick to the gut. But all the rest of the story has fallen out from that event. The relative focus in GoT meant that his demise affected every story thread to some degree or another. So as hard to take as it was, there was no getting around it: that was the story as it had to be told.
I'm still trying to figure out how the Red Wedding fits into the story. Robb and a good part of his army are wiped out, and the largest impact in the book was I didn't have to suffer through any more of Catelyn's chapters. There are references to different factions of these houses I couldn't keep straight fighting amongst themselves, but other than that, Robb's story just stops cold and the focus shifts to other viewpoints. (I was so sad at that epilogue, I hate Catelyn so much.) It feels like GRRM wanted another shocking death like Ned's death, but this one just sort of happened and the story moved on. It felt totally pointless.
(Other than to carry on the tradition of fucking over the Starks near the end of each book; Ned's death and his mean wiped out in GoT, Winterfell sacked in SoS, now Robb's demise in SoS. The Starks are so low now that I'm not sure how they'll get fucked next, but I'm sure GRRM will find a way.)
Beyond that, there are many crucial moments that just didn't work, were oddly plotted, or frustratingly written.
The final scene between Jaime and Tyrion just rang so, so false that I could barely believe it. Tyrion's parting words to his brother are baffling, really out of step with his character.
The ending to Mance's two-books-in-the-making siege on the wall was hilariously anti-climactic, as was Jon's final scene with his girl. Felt very forced, even trite.
Why did GRRM leave out every crucial detail about what happened to Sam? His story is very detailed, and then something critical happens - big cold dude on an elk or something rescues him - and we're left in the dark for all the rest of the book? I get setting hooks for the next book but that was absurd and very frustrating.
I already touched on Robb's narrative ending, which from a story standpoint was a non-event.
Arya's saga ended in a good place, but she wandered aimlessly for two entire books to get there. I didn't buy for one minute the way Jon becomes the new leader on the Wall, it felt very contrived.
In the end, only Daenerys' and Sansa's stories was the ones to be excellent throughout, helped greatly by their relative focus. The rest get wrapped up in narrative sprawl and wander, end anti-climatically or on false notes.
There were some very high points throughout, some payoffs long in making (Arya and Needle, the reveal of Whitebeard, Tyrion's final chat with Tywin), but I finished the book feeling like the overall narrative was really sputtering as a whole. I can't fathom how this is not even halfway into things.
Ned's death in A Game of Thrones was brutal, like a kick to the gut. But all the rest of the story has fallen out from that event. The relative focus in GoT meant that his demise affected every story thread to some degree or another. So as hard to take as it was, there was no getting around it: that was the story as it had to be told.
I'm still trying to figure out how the Red Wedding fits into the story. Robb and a good part of his army are wiped out, and the largest impact in the book was I didn't have to suffer through any more of Catelyn's chapters. There are references to different factions of these houses I couldn't keep straight fighting amongst themselves, but other than that, Robb's story just stops cold and the focus shifts to other viewpoints. (I was so sad at that epilogue, I hate Catelyn so much.) It feels like GRRM wanted another shocking death like Ned's death, but this one just sort of happened and the story moved on. It felt totally pointless.
(Other than to carry on the tradition of fucking over the Starks near the end of each book; Ned's death and his mean wiped out in GoT, Winterfell sacked in SoS, now Robb's demise in SoS. The Starks are so low now that I'm not sure how they'll get fucked next, but I'm sure GRRM will find a way.)
Beyond that, there are many crucial moments that just didn't work, were oddly plotted, or frustratingly written.
The final scene between Jaime and Tyrion just rang so, so false that I could barely believe it. Tyrion's parting words to his brother are baffling, really out of step with his character.
The ending to Mance's two-books-in-the-making siege on the wall was hilariously anti-climactic, as was Jon's final scene with his girl. Felt very forced, even trite.
Why did GRRM leave out every crucial detail about what happened to Sam? His story is very detailed, and then something critical happens - big cold dude on an elk or something rescues him - and we're left in the dark for all the rest of the book? I get setting hooks for the next book but that was absurd and very frustrating.
I already touched on Robb's narrative ending, which from a story standpoint was a non-event.
Arya's saga ended in a good place, but she wandered aimlessly for two entire books to get there. I didn't buy for one minute the way Jon becomes the new leader on the Wall, it felt very contrived.
In the end, only Daenerys' and Sansa's stories was the ones to be excellent throughout, helped greatly by their relative focus. The rest get wrapped up in narrative sprawl and wander, end anti-climatically or on false notes.
There were some very high points throughout, some payoffs long in making (Arya and Needle, the reveal of Whitebeard, Tyrion's final chat with Tywin), but I finished the book feeling like the overall narrative was really sputtering as a whole. I can't fathom how this is not even halfway into things.
Still, part of me really wants to keep going, despite the book feeling like extended punishment at times. Partly because I've grown to care about, or at least want to know the fate of so many characters. And I want to see if GRRM's endgame is anywhere along the lines of what I think it is.
I'm going to take a long break from the books to catch up on season 2 and 3 of the shows, and then decide whether to carry on with the next two books.
PhoenixDark
Banned
If you felt one of the best POVs of ASOS was
and much of the rest of the book wasn't interesting or focused...TBH you should probably not read the next two. ASOS is almost universally considered the best book in the series, from its pacing to the cataclysmic events throughout it.
All spoilers reference the first three novels
The next book doesn't feature the most popular characters, but it does continue
, among other strong King's Landing stories. The north is covered in ADWD, and even people who didn't like the book tend to admit those parts are very strong. It should be noted both books are the impact of the
, not just on the war but on the continent as a whole. It's probably best summed up by the fourth book's title, A Feast For Crows.
Sansa
All spoilers reference the first three novels
With respect to the Red Wedding and its impact on the series...well, it effectively ended the War Of The Five Kings in many ways. Whereas Ned's execution ultimately started the Northern rebellion, Rob's death ended it in many ways. It was a huge event that had many consequences that are seen in the later books, but in ASOS perhaps the biggest one is that it solidified Lannister rule. The next two books, in large part, show the devastation and aftermath of the wedding, how it impacted the north, and how it impacted the kingdom as a whole.
On Tyrion...given the betrayal he faces towards the end of ASOS, his comment seemed quite in line with where he is at that point. It's true that Jaime is perhaps the only person who ever cared for Tyrion, but at the same time it's also true that Jaime has never truly fought for his brother, and was responsible for the biggest heartbreak of his life (the fiasco with his wife); to me that final scene is Tyrion near his emotional bottom, and he lashed out in an attempt to hurt the one person who truly wanted to help him; at that point all the people Tyrion thought were his friends (specifically Shae and Bronn) have either abandoned him or betrayed him.
ADWD features Tyrion's emotional bottom as he tries to reconcile what he has done, and what he has become. A lot of people complained about Tyrion's ADWD chapters as being moody and emo but to me that ignores the mental state he's in, what expecting him to operate like some monthly comic book character who goes from story to story with nothing effecting him.
In terms of Mance's attack...well, considering the battle had thousands of people attacking the Wall, including giants, I really don't know what to tell you; if that was "anti-climatic" then I can't help you, differing opinions. It's probably the second biggest battle in the series up to that point, behind Blackwater. But unlike Blackwater, it's told from one perspective.
On Tyrion...given the betrayal he faces towards the end of ASOS, his comment seemed quite in line with where he is at that point. It's true that Jaime is perhaps the only person who ever cared for Tyrion, but at the same time it's also true that Jaime has never truly fought for his brother, and was responsible for the biggest heartbreak of his life (the fiasco with his wife); to me that final scene is Tyrion near his emotional bottom, and he lashed out in an attempt to hurt the one person who truly wanted to help him; at that point all the people Tyrion thought were his friends (specifically Shae and Bronn) have either abandoned him or betrayed him.
ADWD features Tyrion's emotional bottom as he tries to reconcile what he has done, and what he has become. A lot of people complained about Tyrion's ADWD chapters as being moody and emo but to me that ignores the mental state he's in, what expecting him to operate like some monthly comic book character who goes from story to story with nothing effecting him.
In terms of Mance's attack...well, considering the battle had thousands of people attacking the Wall, including giants, I really don't know what to tell you; if that was "anti-climatic" then I can't help you, differing opinions. It's probably the second biggest battle in the series up to that point, behind Blackwater. But unlike Blackwater, it's told from one perspective.
The next book doesn't feature the most popular characters, but it does continue
Jaime's amazing arc
Red Wedding
I would argue it was a bigger blow than Ned's death, in terms of impact. Not just in terms of the Starks, but the resources wasted to secure victory. Winter is coming....that's all I'll say.
I was just looking for this thread. I asked in the monthly reading book gaf thread, but this might be a better place. Amazon has a deal for the 'Song of Ice and Fire' box set (books 1-4), for $20. My question is, do the books maintain their quality? Is there a dip? Thanks.
There is, but not in the first 4 books.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
The first 3 books are pretty solid, with the third being the best. The 4th book isn't the best.
Just finished Feast for Crows....pretty boring. By the end I felt like I was going through the motions of reading and not really reading. I'm trying to consider it as a necessary evil, an in-between book to reconfigure the storyline and set up the next 3 books.
About to start Dance With Dragons tomorrow - should I be excited?
About to start Dance With Dragons tomorrow - should I be excited?
That's all looking forward, which is what I kind of expected.
The impact in ASoS is very little; we get second hand reports of warring houses in the aftermath, and things carry on much as they have been with the Lannisters, but without the second hand reports of the war ongoing ("Rob Stark kicked our ass again.")
We're told all of this, but 90% of them never come into play.
A few dozen wildlings are involved in the battle inside the wall, where the stairs are burned out from under them (which was a fantastic sequence). There's a battle with a giant in the gated tunnel that we never see. Jon and company drop barrels of ice and pitch on guys from way down below. And they realize they've barely scratched the surface of Mance's army. We've had nearly two books building up the massive size of this army and the threat it poses to Westeros, mind you.
At which point Stannis arrives and routes Mance's army off screen, er page. This massive army, and we get it broken against the wall and then dismissed with second hand reports; Mance isn't even heard from after in ASoS. Second hand reports of his capture, though. The whole battle just kind of fizzles out and then was resolved while Jon was in a tent. That's why it was so anti-climactic.
I remain deeply frustrated at how the wraiths and Others are being danced around. Even when they come into the narrative, such as the, um thing? that rescues Sam, GRRM just skips them. Maybe it's the fact that the series opened with an encounter with them. Or three books of "winter is coming". Or the tease on the back of my edition saying a horde of Others was marching toward the wall. Other than routing the black at the Fist, they're still kept an enigma. It's gotten almost funny how GRRM is trying to drag out their actual reveal.
At which point Stannis arrives and routes Mance's army off screen, er page. This massive army, and we get it broken against the wall and then dismissed with second hand reports; Mance isn't even heard from after in ASoS. Second hand reports of his capture, though. The whole battle just kind of fizzles out and then was resolved while Jon was in a tent. That's why it was so anti-climactic.
I remain deeply frustrated at how the wraiths and Others are being danced around. Even when they come into the narrative, such as the, um thing? that rescues Sam, GRRM just skips them. Maybe it's the fact that the series opened with an encounter with them. Or three books of "winter is coming". Or the tease on the back of my edition saying a horde of Others was marching toward the wall. Other than routing the black at the Fist, they're still kept an enigma. It's gotten almost funny how GRRM is trying to drag out their actual reveal.
I'm actually quite interested in those tales. And I'd like to see some actual impact of the
Still, despite all this I haven't been able to stop thinking about ASoS since I finished it. In particular, Jaime and Dany's stories. The former for the character arc, the latter for the story and how she's rising to power. I want to see how her arrival in Westeros plays out, arriving in the
I'm very frustrated with the narrative decisions by GRRM, but I want see those tales through. (The epilogue to ASoS, more than anything else, is what makes me hesitate to keep going. Really hated that twist.)
I'm working my way through season 2 of the show, and will probably do the same for season 3 once it lands on video. Then I might start up AFFC as season 4 unravels on HBO (which I don't have).
I kind of wish there was a LTTP thread for the series, but having a hajillion threads for the show on the OT at the same time is enough. I'm watching the show about a year behind, so I just read through the old season threads and follow the reactions/reviews.
Red Wedding. As I said, other than stopping Robb's story cold, there's no real consequence in ASoS. Considering there were 300-400 pages left in my edition when it happens, I found that really odd.
Still, despite all this I haven't been able to stop thinking about ASoS since I finished it. In particular, Jaime and Dany's stories. The former for the character arc, the latter for the story and how she's rising to power. I want to see how her arrival in Westeros plays out, arriving in the
aftermath of the war of the five kings.
I'm working my way through season 2 of the show, and will probably do the same for season 3 once it lands on video. Then I might start up AFFC as season 4 unravels on HBO (which I don't have).
I kind of wish there was a LTTP thread for the series, but having a hajillion threads for the show on the OT at the same time is enough. I'm watching the show about a year behind, so I just read through the old season threads and follow the reactions/reviews.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
The most we know per George is that The Others are (Potential Series Spoilers that weren't mentioned in the book?)
Sidhe like creatures, they are cryomancers, and they serve The Great Other.
I had thought they were like Draugrs or something, until I read an article quoting George at an event about how they were Sidhe like creatures.
Steelyuhas
Member
Season 4 will also largely cover ASOS.
does anyone know the quote/paragraph from when Jon Snow escapes from the nights watch in the middle of the night to go meet up with Robb? his friends find him and bring him back?
he's talking to himself and talks about how he must now live in the shadows and go by a different name every time he meets someone. it was pretty awesome. i think it was from the 2nd book maybe.
he's talking to himself and talks about how he must now live in the shadows and go by a different name every time he meets someone. it was pretty awesome. i think it was from the 2nd book maybe.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
So...is this the appropriate thread then for me to read as I'm just cracking the cover of ADWD right now?
Spoilers through to AFFC inclusive, with questions. Halp plz!
Thanks guys.
Spoilers through to AFFC inclusive, with questions. Halp plz!
I'm so excited. I can't imagine that some of you had to wait eleven YEARS for some of these character perspectives to return.
AFFC was the biggest slog of the series for me, and still, I ended up really enjoying the back half, especially what ended up happening with the stories in King's Landing and its characters. It was definitely harder to stay interested in the chapters focused in Dorne and among the Ironmen.
I really need help understanding a few things from AFFC though, and really don't know if there'd be a more appropriate thread to ask in, so here goes:
1. Did Arianne just want vengeance for Uncle Oberyn? How exactly did she want to use Myrcella to achieve that?
2. How does Petyr arrive at the conclusion he arrives at in Alayne's final AFFC chapter? If she eventually reveals herself as Sansa to the world and inherits the North, how could her marriage as Alayne hold true and allow her to retain anything she inherits as part of that union?
3. Alleras appears in the prologue and the final chapter, right? Pate is a separate POV character for the prologue. But Alleras identifies himself as Pate in the final chapter. What? If I'm not supposed to know what this means yet, don't worry, don't tell me. Haha
AFFC was the biggest slog of the series for me, and still, I ended up really enjoying the back half, especially what ended up happening with the stories in King's Landing and its characters. It was definitely harder to stay interested in the chapters focused in Dorne and among the Ironmen.
I really need help understanding a few things from AFFC though, and really don't know if there'd be a more appropriate thread to ask in, so here goes:
1. Did Arianne just want vengeance for Uncle Oberyn? How exactly did she want to use Myrcella to achieve that?
2. How does Petyr arrive at the conclusion he arrives at in Alayne's final AFFC chapter? If she eventually reveals herself as Sansa to the world and inherits the North, how could her marriage as Alayne hold true and allow her to retain anything she inherits as part of that union?
3. Alleras appears in the prologue and the final chapter, right? Pate is a separate POV character for the prologue. But Alleras identifies himself as Pate in the final chapter. What? If I'm not supposed to know what this means yet, don't worry, don't tell me. Haha
Thanks guys.
Steelyuhas
Member
#2
She would reveal herself as Sansa Stark for that wedding, and then through the marriage have right to the North and the Eyrie. She wouldn't marry as "Alayne".
Why would they still go through with the marriage? I just don't see how she'd have the rights to all the lands and titles Petyr enumerated; some would go to her if she was Alayne, some if she were Sansa. Unless the laws of the land permit him to still grant it all to her even if she's back to being Sansa Stark and not officially his bastard...
And is he doing this all out of belated love and adoration of Catelyn?
And is he doing this all out of belated love and adoration of Catelyn?
I'm most dumbfounded by my Question #3. What does it mean?!
TestOfTide
Banned
#1 AFFC
She, like most of dorne, wanted vengeance for oberyn and elia. The whole point of myrcella is to use dorne custom of heirs to declare myrcella as the rightful queen of westeros and try to garner support from would-be female lords that are older than the male heirs such as cersei (assuming that arianne had the same plan that oberyn mentioned to tyrion)
#3 AFFC
The real Pate dies in the prologue (it should be obvious by now the pattern of prolouges and epilogues). The student Alleras was talking with Sam but Sam is shown to his living quarters by someone claiming to be Pate.
#2
She would be entitled to the North as she's the last living heir as far as most of Westeros is concerned. Her son would inherit that - and the lands and titles held by Harry the Heir. Of course, for that to happen, Sweetrobin has to take a bad fall...
#3
The prolouge character is Pate who dies, but the alchemist who kills him takes his place (or wears his face). Alleras is another character entirely.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
1. She also thought that her father planned to give her inheritance to her younger brother. If she crowned a Queen and started a war she could force her father into early retirement.
3. Alleras doesn't identify himself as Pate, the pasty faced novice in the room with them does. It's a little confusingly worded. As for who Alleras and the pasty-faced youth are...
3. Alleras doesn't identify himself as Pate, the pasty faced novice in the room with them does. It's a little confusingly worded. As for who Alleras and the pasty-faced youth are...
Thanks guys. On #3
Question: a book's appendix is always safe to read and refer to at that book's outset, right? I need to pour over ADWD's appendix now if so and truly refresh myself on where everyone is. And in what condition. lol
Man....I'm re-reading those pages. The text can be so confusingly written. I had no indication Alleras and 'pasty faced youth' were two different people, so that's what threw me off. Thanks guys. Lol
Question: a book's appendix is always safe to read and refer to at that book's outset, right? I need to pour over ADWD's appendix now if so and truly refresh myself on where everyone is. And in what condition. lol
TestOfTide
Banned
One of the results of the Red Wedding was supposed to be that Sansa would be both the Lady of Winterfell AND the Lady of Riverrun since Catelyn and Lysa are dead and Edmure was supposed to be a hostage doomed to be executed, leaving sansa as the last Tully heir. Combine that with the fact that Sansa was married to the heir of casterly rock (Tyrion), and you have a potential marriage meant to secure Winterfell, The West, The Riverlands, AND the Eyrie which are all 4 big chunks of westeros that are connected to one another.
Steelyuhas
Member
Littlefinger is only the regent of The Eyrie through his marriage to Lysa, once Robin is of age or if he were to die, he would have no rights to rule and Sansa would have no rights to rule as his trueborn child or otherwise. In order for Sansa to rule The Eyrie, she would need to marry the heir to The Eyrie, and she needs to reveal herself to claim The North.
I have no idea about #3, I still don't quite understand the prologue and epilogue of that book.
Asos questions:
who was actually mad/upset about Robb dying? I was never a huge fan of his although I did earn more respect for him when he killed Karstark. The actual scene does nothing for me and I don't know why. I wasn't entirely shocked by it, I figured something was going to happen to a big character in the book.
http://towerofthehand.com/ is a great resource.
Don't Bran and Rickon have claim to it over Sansa if they reveal they are alive? I have yet to read ADwD so this is purely based off of AFFC
Steelyuhas
Member
i always figured that littlefinger would have knowledge that they are alive. he must be banking on the fact that they will not turn up or end up dying. then again, i can't even remember where rickon is
Like the hat?
Banned
Starting the books today! Time to figure out what all the hubbub is. Haven't seen the show, don't know anything about it really.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Midway through ADWD and have two questions.
I know in the TV show the told Ramsay, but in the books, did Theon actually keep the secret about Bran and Rickon?
I've seen the theories about Jon's parentage (primarily the Rhaegar and Lyanna) and am wondering if true, and came to light, would he still be considered a bastard, since he's technically now high born. And along the same lines, would he be older than Aegon and have the better claim?
I've seen the theories about Jon's parentage (primarily the Rhaegar and Lyanna) and am wondering if true, and came to light, would he still be considered a bastard, since he's technically now high born. And along the same lines, would he be older than Aegon and have the better claim?
[ACoK]
Ramsay (as Reek) was part of the group to kill the boys and knew all along they weren't Bran and Rickon.
Your second set of questions,
if they weren't married at the time then Jon would still be a bastard. As for who was older, no idea.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
ACoK
Crap, how did I forget that. I remembered that Theon had "Reek" working with him, but for some reason I was thinking he brought his own men with him to kill the two kids and Reek was already gone at that point.
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