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[kaioshade]

Sure I get that. I'm just saying that being targeted at children shouldn't be an excuse for having bad writing.

I think that, as someone already posted, the fact that Gamefreak's goal isn't to tell a story but rather to focus on the collecting and battling of pokemon is a more valid explanation than "it's aimed at children"

Fair enough. I also think the games are done that way deliberately. The writing isnt strong because they think children are stupid, but a simple story serves the game. It doesnt really need more. children dont care about a "deep involving story", they want to collect and battle cute critters.

Thats what i mean when i say marketed at children.

 

[CronoShot]

Disagree

Oscar worthy shit

 

[ZiZ]

I just wish the story was better. No team Aqua/Magma bullshit. I don't even remember what the bad guys from X/Y wanted. I hear black and white had a great story but I never played that one.

 

[Balb]

Fair's fair- the idea that Team Plasma's mostly made up of hypocrites is pretty explicit in the text. The only one properly committed is N, and he releases his Pokémon throughout.

I haven't played B/W since launch, so maybe I'd have to replay them, but I just remember one of the members going on about how using Pokeballs is immoral, only to challenge you to a battle and summon a Pokemon with a Pokeball moments later. It seemed more like an oversight than a hint toward hypocrisy, but again I'd have to replay it with the knowledge of what you said to know for sure.

 

[Syril]

I always found the writing relatively inoffensive but also boring. I get the feeling that they're really afraid of not playing it safe in the main games because they're so consistently successful. They certainly don't have an issue with the spinoffs going in different places.

 

[LPride]

I just wish the story was better. No team Aqua/Magma bullshit. I don't even remember what the bad guys from X/Y wanted. I hear black and white had a great story but I never played that one.

I really wish they did away with all the evil Teams and the pokemon who can shatter the heavens. Get back down to earth with an asshole of a smug rival that you love to beat and racing him to the championship. All pokemon needs.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Disagree

Oscar worthy shit

 

[Roufianos]

Yea, it's patronizing as fuck. Sadly the recent games have dumbed down the gameplay to the same level as the dialogue.

Still, can't wait for Sun & Moon.

 

[Balb]

Fair enough. I also think the games are done that way deliberately. The writing isnt strong because they think children are stupid, but a simple story serves the game. It doesnt really need more. children dont care about a "deep involving story", they want to collect and battle cute critters.

Thats what i mean when i say marketed at children.

It's clear that Game Freak does care about the story though. Maybe they didn't care as much during the first couple of generations, but by Pokemon Platinum, some of the characters had Metal Gear Solid-style philosophical rants.

 

[Aurongel]

It's written for kids, not adults playing kids games. I love Pokemon as much as the next guy and I'm not shaming people for enjoying what they like but come on. Children are the bread and butter of the Pokemon audience. They're the ones who'll watch the anime and buy the games long after we all move on.

 

[Aaronrules380]

People bringing up examples of better kids writing in other mediums are completely missing the point. Most games targeted at adults have shittier writing than those examples as well. It's much easier to write a good, cohesive story in a non interactive medium where everything from the pacing to the direction is controlled by the writer. Even more so when you're aiming at young kids.

Case in point, lets compare the pokemon games to the closest possible examples in other mediums: The Pokemon anime and the pokemon manga.

 

[.JayZii]

Yea, it's patronizing as fuck. Sadly the recent games have dumbed down the gameplay to the same level as the dialogue.

Were the old games hard?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Still not sure how they're taking down to you by explaining things. Maybe you can call it bad game design but explaining how their food court works isn't insulting like you claim

 

[Nights Owl]

Yea, it's patronizing as fuck. Sadly the recent games have dumbed down the gameplay to the same level as the dialogue.

Still, can't wait for Sun & Moon.

How...?

 

[Balb]

People bringing up examples of better kids writing in other mediums are completely missing the point. Most games targeted at adults have shittier writing than those examples as well. It's much easier to write a good, cohesive story in a non interactive medium where everything from the pacing to the direction is controlled by the writer. Even more so when you're aiming at young kids.

Case in point, lets compare the pokemon games to the closest possible examples in other mediums: The Pokemon anime and the pokemon manga.

I don't know about the manga, but the anime is god awful and arguably worse than the games, writing wise.

 

[Acerac]

Who plays Pokemon for the writing? I mean, seriously?

The problem is that these days I'm starting to run out of any reasons to play Pokemon, what with how easy the campaigns are and the ridiculous hassle breeding teams to play online is.

 

[Hero Prinny]

Ive always had an issue with pokemon games treating me like a complete idiot, even when i was a child i felt that they were disrespecting my intelligence and its only gotten worse with each new game in the series imo

 

[Aaronrules380]

I don't know about the manga, but the anime is god awful and arguably worse than the games, writing wise.

How much of the anime have you actually watched? and when for that matter? Because I'm willing to bet you're going to regurgitate the same tired old bullshit about Ash never winning and shit like that and ignore every other aspect of the writing

 

[Neoleo2143]

I'm actually questioning your examples, because I'm not seeing the condescension, I'm afraid. That isn't bad dialogue though I would definitely put it around the 6th to 7th grade level of vocabulary however. That being said, Pokemon is a bit unusual because its dialogue jumps around the grade levels a lot. The Delta Episode has quite a lot of late high school level dialogue actually (Zinnia's Story at the end of the episode has vocabulary that I really don't expect many kids to actually get, but it conveys emotions rather well, making it good dialogue), and Sea Mauville is close to College level.

So what exactly do you mean by "Writing", do you mean vocabulary? Or do you mean narrative arcs? Or do you mean writing flow?

You argument is rather poorly written I'm afraid. I'm not convinced.

Edit: On topic of the Anime, Some parts aren't particularly convincing, the deus ex machina that is Tobias comes to mind. However, I would regard the current season of XY(&Z) as above average. It's rather entertaining and is a actually pretty solid visually for a long running show. It's definitely has quite a few tropes of the shounen genre (Of which I despise that term but I digress), but it also breaks away at times, which is good and keeps things interesting. It has nice filler which is actually something I can't say for many long running shows.

 

[JoeM86]

Were the old games hard?

Nope. Considering a friend got through the E4 on her Virtual Console playthrough at 20 levels below the Champion's level.

They were grindy, not hard.

 

[paradise_circus]

As far as I can recall the overall story of each Pokemon game is an a-okay adventure. Most of the dialogues are pretty dull though.

 

[perfectchaos007]

lewd

 

[Agent Cooper]

Using the word 'insipid' to describe the writing for a game made for kids is a bit... :/

Things have to be explained for kids. Yes, there are kids out there who might also eyeroll through the explanations and handholding but a lot of kids need it to understand the game.

People shouldn't expect Pokemon to grow up with them.

 

[Acerac]

Were the old games hard?

Far moreso than current titles.

Old titles weren't hard, but they weren't the snoozefests the current ones are.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Still not sure how they're taking down to you by explaining things. Maybe you can call it bad game design but explaining how their food court works isn't insulting like you claim

Well, it's like this. That whole scenario is weird, entering a food court and battling Pokemon while you wait, but it's Pokemon so I can give that a pass. It's the things that people say to you that have me wondering, "who the fuck translated this?". Whether it's the little girl who's awkwardly making it out like battling for food is the way of the world, or how, when you finally get your food at the end of the gauntlet, the person at the counter tells you how, since you took a turn too long, "...the bread has dried up, but the flavor is still passable", because that's a thing a human being would say. It's one thing to pepper your game with cutesy and irreverent dialogue but damn near everything that anyone has to say in the game is just...tenuous and fucking strange.

 

[Menitta]

I'm gonna enjoy this thread.

 

[Balb]

How much of the anime have you actually watched? and when for that matter? Because I'm willing to bet you're going to regurgitate the same tired old bullshit about Ash never winning and shit like that and ignore every other aspect of the writing

I watched all of the Kanto era and some of the Johto era. I don't care whether Ash wins or not (mainly because I find him annoying). The show is too formulaic with pretty much no character progression/growth. The battles are also underwhelming and pretty random. The only credit I give to the anime is that it helped flesh out a pretty abstract world back in 1998 with great music and Pokemon models.

 

[LPride]

Far moreso than current titles.

Old titles weren't hard, but they weren't the snoozefests the current ones are.

Lets be honest though, youve had 20 years to memorize the type chart. Pokemon is just complicated RPS, so once youve got the chart memorized, and the pokemons types memorized, the game is simple.

 

[Drencrom]

The game is marketed at children?

Even kids aren't as stupid as the Pokémon games treat players.

 

[NormalFish]

Older games definitely had higher quality writing overall. The new ones are a weird mix, though. Lots of NPCs have some fun dialogue that's clever, but generally it's not the stuff you experience unless you're the type to go around and talk to random unnamed NPCs.

 

[-Horizon-]

There are moments in Pokemon games (at least older ones) where you can feel the adult writer pressing against the demands of a "kid's game," with little jokes that might go over the average kid's head. There was also some occasionally "harsher" themes in, say, Gold or Silver, like cutting off Slowpoke tails and selling them on the black market. I mean, that's not exactly "kid friendly."

I don't think smart writing is beyond Pokemon, but it's an audience problem. Pokemon is aimed at children, but played by far more than children. Game Freak's stance is probably just that adults will still play the games even if they're written to be accessible to kids, but writing them for adult players would likely alienate a lot of the kid players.

Wasn't there also a

Spoiler

super weapon used that killed a lot of Pokemon in a war

in XY?

 

[LPride]

Even kids aren't as stupid as the Pokémon games treat players.

I think its really interesting that people are using the dialouge and not the gameplay as a barometer for treating the player like an idiot. The entire game is just "cast water on the fire enemy", isnt that even more insulting?

 

[GokouD]

It's been a while, but I seem to remember Black and White getting into the themes of Platonic philosophy, truth vs ideals and so on.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I watched all of the Kanto era and some of the Johto era. I don't care whether Ash wins or not (mainly because I find him annoying). The show is too formulaic with pretty much no character progression/growth. The battles are also underwhelming and pretty random. The only credit I give to the anime is that it helped flesh out a pretty abstract world back in 1998 with great music and Pokemon models.

So barely any of it, a long time ago. Because as someone who's been watching the XY and Z animes on a weekly basis, I can tell you this is complete garbage. Hell, the latest (Unsubbed) episode of XY and Z was entirely about character development for Ash. And episodic story telling isn't necessarily bad. A lot of the fillery episodes of the XY anime have been great. And while this has little to do with the writing, the animation, direction and general quality of battles is a lot better now than the action in most recent anime

 

[Menitta]

I think its really interesting that people are using the dialouge and not the gameplay as a barometer for treating the player like an idiot. The entire game is just "cast water on the fire enemy", isnt that even more insulting?

They also expect kids to solve the calculus that is the breeding chart.

 

[everyday math]

lewd

He came
.
.
.
To this city

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I'm actually questioning your examples, because I'm not seeing the condescension, I'm afraid. That isn't bad dialogue though I would definitely put it around the 6th to 7th grade level of vocabulary however. That being said, Pokemon is a bit unusual because its dialogue jumps around the grade levels a lot. The Delta Episode has quite a lot of late high school level dialogue actually (Zinnia's Story at the end of the episode has vocabulary that I really don't expect many kids to actually get, but it conveys emotions rather well, making it good dialogue), and Sea Mauville is close to College level.

So what exactly do you mean by "Writing", do you mean vocabulary? Or do you mean narrative arcs? Or do you mean writing flow?

You argument is rather poorly written I'm afraid. I'm not convinced.

Edit: On topic of the Anime, Some parts aren't particularly convincing, the deus ex machina that is Tobias comes to mind. However, I would regard the current season of XY(&Z) as above average. It's rather entertaining and is a actually pretty solid visually for a long running show. It's definitely has quite a few tropes of the shounen genre (Of which I despise that term but I digress), but it also breaks away at times, which is good and keeps things interesting. It has nice filler which is actually something I can't say for many long running shows.

I wish I hadn't accidentally posted the thread early because I had planned to take my time and drop in screenshots of some of the quips and dialogue strings the game drops on the player throughout. I grabbed the OP examples hastily but believe me when I say the game is just chock full of nonsense.

 

[dtm808]

TIL people buy pokemon for the story. Even when I was a kid playing blue I just wanted to get all the badges.

 

[Mecha]

I think its really interesting that people are using the dialouge and not the gameplay as a barometer for treating the player like an idiot. The entire game is just "cast water on the fire enemy", isnt that even more insulting?

I know right? You should head to one of those Pokemon tournaments and show those guys how stupid they really are!

 

[Acerac]

Lets be honest though, youve had 20 years to memorize the type chart. Pokemon is just complicated RPS, so once youve got the chart memorized, and the pokemons types memorized, the game is simple.

Dunno man, the last game I played was X and Y and that had new typings that I didn't have memorized. After 2 or 3 dungeons I realized I had to go out of my way to handicap myself to not be oppressively stronger than all the trainers I ran in to due to the broken XP share item, at that point I was pretty much set with the series.

The game doesn't need to be THAT easy.

 

[Chibot]

That's why you should switch to the SMT series. It's like Pokemon for adults.

 

[Cjdamon042]

The writing is pretty terrible most of the time, but my main issue when it comes to stuff like this is how everyone in the game is essentially a walking tutorial signpost. I really wish they'd give more "life" to the NPCs, and maybe have them doing stuff other than walk around in circles, rather than just giving me some nonsense about a certain item or status effect.

 

[harmonize]

the least they can do is stop forcing their characters on you at every moment. instead of having three rivals that constantly stop and remind you at every other route of how great bonding with pokemon is, maybe just shorten it down to one? the plot of XY wouldn't have been damaged had calem/serena been the only rival.

 

[Sterok]

The writing issue isn't a consistent problem for the series. The plots may be nothing to write home about, but the writing is usually perfectly adequate for what it's going for. Ever since DP (and arguably even before) characters are fairly well defined, and while the evil teams' plans may not make much sense or actually have depth, it shows GF is trying. XY just sucked hard on that front, taking a noticeable step back in the writing, characters, evil team, and just about everything. And even then the post-game still had some good stuff. ORAS was a return to form, massively improving on what RS had before. Nothing Oscar worthy, but good enough for a kids JRPG.

 

[Holundrian]

Dunno I feel like most adults play Pokemon for gameplay as such I don't think it's Pokemons number 1 problem.
Personally I get more fed up by slow menus, shitty UI navigation, the many little things that make the experience cumbersome and get in the way of me making cool teams.

Like I enjoyed lesser games(gameplay wise) more than the most recent Pokemon I tried(Y) because they are only half as shitty on those aspects compared to that game.

 

[gardfish]

I don't have a problem with the writing and ideas being simplistic, but the way NPCs are written are just so strange. The OP's comparison of Blue's Clues on LSD is pretty accurate, honestly. It's particularly noticeable playing through Gen 5 again. Like, instead of saying "I am an engineer!" an NPC might say "I am a person who is an engineer!"

 

[Slamtastic]

The writing is pretty terrible most of the time, but my main issue when it comes to stuff like this is how everyone in the game is essentially a walking tutorial signpost. I really wish they'd give more "life" to the NPCs, and maybe have them doing stuff other than walk around in circles, rather than just giving me some nonsense about a certain item or status effect.

A Pokemon immersive sim where the world felt real and believable, with details...

 

[Neoleo2143]

I think its really interesting that people are using the dialouge and not the gameplay as a barometer for treating the player like an idiot. The entire game is just "cast water on the fire enemy", isnt that even more insulting?

If you want to boil it down to that I suppose, you have weather mechanics, team mechanics, slight positioning mechanics, buffing and debuffing mechanics, status mechanics, pretty much everything you'd expect with abilities and natures as well as how different specific moves work and change play such as Volt Switch and U-turn. You would be ignoring the competitive aspects of the game of course since, it's essentially the videogame equal to Poker.

I wish I hadn't accidentally posted the thread early because I had planned to take my time and drop in screenshots of some of the quips and dialogue strings the game drops on the player throughout. I grabbed the OP examples hastily but believe me when I say the game is just chock full of nonsense.

Please be careful next time. I do not deny that quite a number of pieces are dialogue are "unusual" and far below the grade level expected. However there are others that also are higher grade level in terms of vocabulary. It's a mix and I think that was the point. I think being too specific will result in a poorly balanced argument.

 

[GamingOblivion]

Stop treating children like they can't appreciate good and well made dialouge. The OP brought up films that do dialouge for children right. Pokemon is just so goddamn brain-dead. Even when I played the games as a grade-schooler I hated the dialouge.

 

[VeryGooster]

OP isn't wrong that the writing is incredibly simple, and I do think kids deserve a good product or narrative and not stuff like the garbage looking stuff Netflix has in the kids and family section. I also get the trade off not trying to overwhelm them either.

Having that said that, I honestly do not find myself thinking that hard about the narrative in the last few Pokémon games (nor do I remember doing as much when I was a kid) and mostly enjoy the sense of accomplishment building a team and wrecking gym leaders and the exploration. But I'm also a casual in comparison to how the hardcore players approach the games.