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[Daniel B·]

With Firmware 2.00 for the PS Vita, which is being released on November 19th, the Vita's browser is getting some "Significant improvements", as stated in Sony's blog video:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/11/13/playstation-plus-for-ps-vita-available-next-week-take-the-tour/

Here's the transcript of the browser related changes:

"We've made some significant improvements; we have an upgraded rendering engine and we're optimizing more of the GPU processing power, improve the content display performance by upgrading the HTML 5 and JavaScript engine".

Hopefully, I'm correct in my conjecture that the PS3 and Vita's browsers are very much related and these improvements will be coming to the PS3 soon after.

P.S. For the love of everything good in the world, does anyone have the ear of someone influential at NeoGAF as it really is a pain that the site switches to the mobile view, in the PS3 browser, i.e. please, please, please can you leave it on the Desktop view, which displays perfectly fine (it shows this view first and then switches to Mobile view - if you disable JavaScript it stays on Desktop view, but you lose interaction).

 

[jeff_rigby]

With Firmware 2.00 for the PS Vita, which is being released on November 19th, the Vita's browser is getting some "Significant improvements", as stated in Sony's blog video:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/11/13/playstation-plus-for-ps-vita-available-next-week-take-the-tour/

Here's the transcript of the browser related changes:

"We've made some significant improvements; we have an upgraded rendering engine and we're optimizing more of the GPU processing power, improve the content display performance by upgrading the HTML 5 and JavaScript engine".

Hopefully, I'm correct in my conjecture that the PS3 and Vita's browsers are very much related and these improvements will be coming to the PS3 soon after.

P.S. For the love of everything good in the world, does anyone have the ear of someone influential at NeoGAF as it really is a pain that the site switches to the mobile view, in the PS3 browser, i.e. please, please, please can you leave it on the Desktop view, which displays perfectly fine (it shows this view first and then switches to Mobile view - if you disable JavaScript it stays on Desktop view, but you lose interaction).

Thanks, we expected something was being saved to make a bang just before the WiiU launch on the 20th. Accelerated composition APIs have been done for GTKwebkit2 for several weeks.

Oh, yes the PS3 uses the same webkit core and GTK APIs as does Sony Blu-ray players and the Vita.

 

[jeff_rigby]

hbbTV Sony Europe vision (hbbTV started in Germany in 2009)

Sony has entered into a strategic partnership with the Polish public broadcaster TVP in order to develop HbbTV services in the country. Under the terms of the agreement between the two parties, they will jointly develop content and hybrid TV services, as well as educate consumers about such services.

Sony, Samsung trade body to push HbbTV to Brits

HbbTV (hybrid broadcast broadband television) is set for roll-out in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Denmark and Ireland, and has already been tried out in France, Germany, Spain and The Netherlands.

In its most basic terms HbbTV is a variation on the smart TV theme as seen in Sony's Bravia Internet-connected TVs, Panasonic's Vieracast and Samsung's Smart TV. The main difference between connected TV and HbbTV, however, is that the former comes with a suite of apps as controlled by the manufacturer. HbbTV channels control their own content and can offer ancillary services around their broadcast offering. Even better, as HbbTV is built on open technologies developers can write an application once and it would be applicable to every channel using the standard. What works for Canal+ of France 24 would work for RTE.

In practice this would mean that the consumer who buys a smart TV would not only have their selection of manufacturer-approved applications like YouTube, Picasa and Skype but also a selection of interactive features developed by broadcasters for their own channels. In the same way that the 'red button' remote control popularised by Sky game access to additional content, applying the same idea to a HbbTV channel could offer the viewer a wealth of interactive applications like programme guides, games, visual radio, voting, teletext with embedded graphics and video, and access to a catch-up service.

Theoretically we could also see the likes of screen-in-screen organisation where a browser could display related Web content in real time. This would service so-called 'second screeners' used to commenting on their favourite shows in real time via discussion forums or Twitter from another device.
Another potential use would be a link to an online store related to what you are watching. Like the show? How about buying the box set or the t-shirt or press a button to vote on what you think will happen in the next episode.

If some of these features sound close to what Google is trying to achieve with Google TV you would be right, however, broadcasters have something the Internet giant can't offer: content. In its present form Google TV is a method of organising content from a central OS in your TV using the Android operating system.

 

[phosphor112]

hbbTV Sony Europe vision (hbbTV started in Germany in 2009)



Sony, Samsung trade body to push HbbTV to Brits

Is this released anywhere yet? Any tech demos/videos?

 

[jeff_rigby]

And Microsoft with the same vision, it's starting:

Microsoft's VP of the Interactive Entertainment Business, Phil Harrison, has acknowledged that the company's internal development studios are no longer competing with just traditional console manufacturers, but web and tech companies including Google and Apple.

Speaking at the London Games Conference this evening, Harrison said that his game development teams are now multiformat studios, working not only across Xbox but Windows 8, Surface and mobile devices.

"We are now really a multiplatform studio," he told the audience. "We are not just building games for Xbox 360, we're building experiences for smart glass, we're building dedicated games for Windows Phone 8 and for Windows 8."

Around 30 titles released for the Windows 8 launch period were developed in-house at Microsoft Studios, according to Harrison. Thinking multiformat at Microsoft is part of a wider remit at the corporation, he said, pulling other developments such as cloud computing into the entertainment business.

"We think this expands our competitive map," he said. "We're no longer just competing with the traditional console companies, but our competitive landscape includes the likes of Google, the likes of Amazon, it includes obviously the likes of Apple."

"We think that's great. We think it's good for us, we think it's good for the industry and we think it also moves us into this network generation more aggressively and with more determination. And this is in turn powered by the cloud, and this is another corporate investment that Microsoft is making the future of how technology and devices interact. We think of Microsoft as now being a devices and services company.

"There isn't an organization that embodies that strategy more precisely and concisely as Microsoft Studios inside the interactive entertainment business."

He also went on to shed some light on the recently announced tablet and mobile phone studio in London, headed up by former Rare developer Lee Schuneman.

"We are trying to build a new kind of studio," he said. "We describe it as being a 21st Century studio.

"It will not make retail products. It will be making products largely based on the Windows 8 platform and technologies. And it's more about exploring new business models and pioneering new ways to play on devices that we think are going to be powering the future of our industry over the next five or ten years. We're hiring from the console industry, the web 2.0 industry and from the online gaming industry."

Xbox Lite set top box

Microsoft is building an Xbox set-top box. Multiple sources familiar with Redmond's plans have confirmed to The Verge that the company plans to introduce a low-cost alternative to its Xbox console, designed to provide access to core entertainment services. The move will allow Microsoft to further increase its presence in the living room, providing consumers with a choice between a set-top box or a full next-generation Xbox console.

We're told that the set-top box is part of a two-SKU strategy for Microsoft's next-generation of Xbox hardware that will be unveiled in 2013, with a release date ahead of the holiday shopping season. The device will run on the core components of Windows 8 and support casual gaming titles rather than full Xbox games typically found on a dedicated console. Although hardware specifications aren't fully locked down, we understand Microsoft will use a chipset to enable an "always on" device that boots quickly and resumes to provide near-instant access to TV and entertainment services.

"Microsoft's Xbox platform for all types of devices"

Microsoft's Xbox set-top box work is said to be part of a broader effort to ensure its core architecture for the next-generation Xbox is scalable enough to be put together to run on a number of devices. We understand that the company could opt to combine its core system for the next Xbox with a phone stack to deliver a phone capable of running a full version of Microsoft's Xbox Live services. It has also investigated providing this functionality to TV OEMs, who could include the core services as part of a licensed Xbox television set.

We reached out to Microsoft for comment on its Xbox set-top box plans and the company issued the following statement:

 

[jeff_rigby]

Re: PS3 Beam Support
by Twonky_Rick on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:40 pm

PS3 cannot yet be controlled by anything except Sony devices (like PSP). They are rumored to be making this a DMR, so it will work with TwonkyBeam, but that hasn't happend yet. If this happens, it will be through a firmware update.

Video showing Screen share from Android phone to various devices including PS3. PS3 requires manually connecting to the Android DLNA server while with other devices you can "beam" or fling for a one step totally from the Phone (Xbox 360 now must be in DLNA play mode). PS3 future DMR will be similar or easier than the current Xbox 360.

Discovered this when I installed a MyLiveBook WD Twonky DLNA server with 2 TB hard disk $149.00 works well.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Among other perks, ATSC 2.0 will enable newer receivers to store programs, clips, and movies locally for playback on demand. It will also let viewers subscribe to additional free or paid broadcast channels and personalize the look of their displays as well as the programs and advertising they receive. And there’s at least one potential game changer: ATSC 2.0 will take advantage of Internet-connected TVs by enabling broadcasters to integrate online content, such as voting platforms or social networking services, into shows delivered over the air. For instance, viewers could pick, in real time, the winners of contestant game shows, such as “Dancing With the Stars.” Or, while watching a broadcast news program, they could read relevant hyperlocal updates on their TV screens, tablets, or phones.

The keystone feature of ATSC 2.0 is its ability to support broadcaster-initiated interactivity between real-time programming and data saved locally at the receiver or retrieved online. The combined broadcast-broadband experience is the broadcasters’ ticket to staying competitive in today’s connected world. It can be as simple as a one-click product purchase or as stunning as a virtual tour of the winning race car in the Indianapolis 500.
According to the ATSC 2.0 protocol, broadcasters would create these elements by sticking many small bit sequences, called triggers, in the broadcast data stream. A trigger can do several things. For instance, it can announce the availability of interactive content, tell where that content is located locally or online, and signal when it should appear. A trigger can also mobilize more complex application-like objects, which are delivered in a broadcast stream or downloaded from the Internet. These scripted objects act like very simple computer programs in that they control the timing, display, and fetching of various data to produce a personalized, interactive scene.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I previously posted a slide from the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint below that Showed Microsoft and Sony were going to support Google TV like features and XTV:

Bottom right in the above slide has Microsoft speculating that the PS4 would support Google TV and in addition "Tech Forward" means it will support New technology that's coming; I.E. New accessories and features that will be released similar to how the PS3 was supported with Firmware updates.

It's related to providing support for "Always On Connected devices in the Digital home" seen in the following slide. Set Top boxes and servers for 6.4 billion Handhelds as well as 600 million new internet connected Homes/living rooms. Why? because ATSC 2.0 starts in 2013 and it's standard will be picked up and supported by both Cable and OTA. What's the opportunity; Most of the TVs on the market can't support OTA 1080P, 1080P S3D or XTV but on Cable TV with RVU or HDMI pass-through or OTA with a digital tuner or Nanse both Xbox 720 and PS4 can support this new standard making the next generation game consoles a all in one entertainment "does everything" platform.

ATSC 2.0 work on track

Taking the TV experience to a new level is the objective of ATSC 2.0, an effort that will introduce a number of enhanced features based on newly-developed standards and the focused application of existing standards. Work on ATSC 2.0, which has been under way since last year, includes a suite of new services, including non-real-time transmission, Internet-related enhancements, 3D TV broadcasting, and advanced video compression.

Announcement occurring at or slightly after the ATSC 2.0 dates in the above chart might be about ATSC 2.0/RVU features and the Firmware updates that are coming and not about the PS4 or Xbox 720.

This article Sony's PS4 Expected to Be Announced in March, but Released After the Xbox 720 has several dates that are rumored for PS4 information releases which might be about what I mention above.

If you've followed my posts you are probably tired of my constantly harping on webkit/HTML5 and it's coming with major firmware updates and new features coming to the PS3. My fault is in being too early and falsely speculating multiple times when it might be implemented. In hindsight we can now see the multiple statements from Sony employees did have meat but were also inaccurate as the release times. For instance we were told that the PS3 browser would support S3D in a year, it will be slightly more than 2 years but likely true. We were told that Sony is betting on Handhelds and the 6.4 billion new phones and Tablets by 2016 predicted in one of the above as well as Microsoft going after that market too is now explained.

Why the predicted massive expansion in handhelds => low prices, new features enabled by much more powerful hardware and infrastructure. The PS4 and Xbox 720 are part of the infrastructure of always on connected home devices that will serve and support handhelds.

Part of ATSC 2.0 is support for Mobile Digital TV and that's for handheld devices also.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The webkit backend in the PS3 and Vita are nearly identical to the webkit backend in Opera and Chrome. The front end differences are what I think you are complaining about. The APIs published for GTKwebkit2 allow the front end features in the Vita and PS3, this is why following GTKwebkit2 allows us to see what might be coming in the near term.

BUT:

1) Sony will not implement features that create security issues.
2) Sony implements features when they become industry STANDARDS and APIs for those standards have been implemented for GTKwebkit2.
3) Sony wants the browsers to be attractive but the goal is to make money so we can expect features that make Sony money to be implemented when Sony has the infrastructure in place to take advantage of those features.

A lightweight browser can be created using OpenVG that supports SVG. A lightweight browser is all that is needed to support a OS UI. This is a PDF describing in very simple terms OpenVG on Android and it applies to the PS3 XMB. At just about the same time early 2010, Android was getting OpenVG support and the PS3 with Firmware 3.0 got Accelerated OpenVG support. You don't need Cairo support for a lightweight OS UI based on SVG (Browser desktop).

I early on assumed Cairo was being used for the XMB because of the non-text swirls and sparkles in the XMB opening screen (GPU accelerated 3D transformations normally done with bindings to Cairo). I assume now that those are custom Sony additions to GPU accelerated OpenVG and Pixman. The PDF in the link above shows why GPU accelerated OpenVG was implemented in the PS3 with firmware 3.0, a browser UI/desktop just as I suspected but done with the less resource intensive OpenVG not Cairo. What we saw in PS4 screenshots is in the examples shown in the PDF (page 6).

Ongoing disagreement Browser desktop:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37156120&postcount=470
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37156731&postcount=471

Gstreamer used in PS3 for HTML5 DASH Edit: Change from Gstreamer to Gstreamer APIs

Three years now since 2010 and I asked the question on BY3D; "Will the PS3 have a Browser desktop?" and in the BY3D webkit HTML5 coming to consoles predicted Webkit, then AVM+ used for the DASH player then Gstreamer used for the DASH player and Cairo in the PS3 to support a browser desktop. It looks like OpenVG instead of Cairo but everything else sill might be coming to the PS3 and for sure from screenshots for the PS4. Lots of stumbles in the assumptions corrected by Massa.

 

[jeff_rigby]

FCC to Force all Cable TV Providers to Stream HD With "Open" Standard by 2014

The U.S. Federal Communications Commission -- upset that cable television providers (CTPs) did not allow streaming of HD video via secured connections like the Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) standard -- in 2010 decided to force the issue proposing an order to force CTPs to stream.

The new set of rules, set to be made mandatory by June 2, 2014, also clarifies what capabilities are expected of the HD streams:

recordable high-definition video
closed captioning data
service discovery
video transport
remote control command pass-through

DLNA Premium Video Profile, an HD-compliant version of the secure-streaming standard set to be ratified in 2013, was suggested as one possible option for cable companies.

Looks like the RVU additions to DLNA recently adopted are the standard. Xtended TV is coming to OTA with ATSC 2.0 in the US this year and those standards should make their way into cable.

So DVR ability with an always on Xbox 720 or PS4 is a given right?

The previous post had A EU paper on standby power mode and exceptions. it applies to the PS4 and Xbox 720. The always on mode for the Xbox and PS4 is not required to be 500mw, read the exceptions and use cases. One has a game console able to turn on a Blu-ray player and control as well as play the blu-ray in the player; RVU should allow such a use case.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sony ready to open their Ecosystem store

Sony Corporation (ADR) (NYSE:SNE) Enters into cloud services business with Sony Media Cloud

The Japanese electronics giant Sony Corporation (ADR) (NYSE:SNE) recently disclosed the launch of Sony Media Cloud Services, a subsidiary to help the company make a way in the cloud services business.

The subsidiary will deliver cloud services to help firms store, share and process content from around the globe. Sony said its cloud product platform Ci will be used by the new operation.

It will help users to improve and streamline the creative processes. Sony is not surely alone in the industry since other rivals like Panasonic, A frame and Avid also launched cloud based production services. The headquarters of Sony Media Cloud Services will be in Culver City, California where Sony Pictures Studio is situated.

The regional teams will be based in Europe, North America and Asia. Sony said that the service will rely on Pay as you go pricing. The company is scheduled to demo the service next week at the 2013 NAB Show.

Leveraging Sony’s end-to-end expertise across the media landscape, the new company’s robust, scalable cloud platform, CiSM (pronounced see), will provide studios, broadcasters, independent producers, marketing teams and other creative individuals with a “one-cloud” solution to collect, produce and archive high-value, high-definition content, allowing fast and secure collaboration on a global scale.
Naomi Climer, president of Sony Media Cloud Services, comments: “Every day, creative professionals around the world spend numerous hours and resources on non-creative tasks like moving and sharing content, figuring out how and where to store it, and getting the right assets to the right places and in the right hands. Sony understands these complex challenges, which is why we designed Ci as a functionally rich, scalable and secure, media-focused cloud platform that can enhance and streamline traditional production workflows to make it easier to collaborate more effectively and cost-efficiently.”
Chris Cookson, president of Sony Pictures Technologies, adds: “The efficiency and flexibility that cloud solutions provide will radically change the way creative professionals collaborate. Working with Sony’s Cloud Services team to further enhance Ci’s platform and applications will enable our production and distribution teams around the world to work together more efficiently, without sacrificing creativity or quality.”
Applications available at launch include:

• Ci MediaBox: Collects, organises, previews, shares and archives every media type and size using studio-designed cloud storage solution suite
• Ci VideoLog: Enables logging of frame-accurate events to prepare content for downstream opportunities, distribution and playout automation
• Ci AudioSync: Utilises analysis algorithms and audio pattern matching to reduce non-creative editing work time in content-preparation workflows
• Ci FrameMatch: Analyses media files to automatically identify differences and likenesses between two sets of video files
• Ci ReviewApprove: Enables review, annotation and collaboration on media files across multiple locations in real time, simultaneously

Ci is currently in beta production and will be on display next week at the 2013 NAB Show in the Sony booth. Ci is available within the US and European markets, with plans for additional service capabilities to be launched within the year.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

It's for professionals only. I highly doubt they will make a PS3 client.

 

[BosSin]

Sweet Jesus, this thread still lives?!

 

[jeff_rigby]

It's for professionals only. I highly doubt they will make a PS3 client.

The post is more about the timing:

News - GStreamer OpenMAX IL wrapper plugin 1.0.0 release 3/22/2013 and we got a PS3 Firmware 4.40 update on the 21st and the PS Store app updated to version 1.04.

The GStreamer team is pleased to announce the first GStreamer OpenMAX IL wrapper plugin release for the new API and ABI-stable 1.x series of the GStreamer multimedia framework.

Gstreamer now has official GST-OpenMax support and the PS3 and Vita use OpenMax IL as the video player back ends.

A few days ago Google's Chrome OS got the new HTML5 DRM proposed by Netflix/Google/Microsoft and Netflix is now available on the Chrome OS.

Speculation: The PS3 uses OpenMax IL as the back end for video media and has/is using Flash AVM+ for the front end. It may switch to Gstreamer - Openmax because Gstreamer appears to be a standard front end for video players in Opera, Firefox, Sony TVs, GTKwebkit and more.

Several key components of GTKwebkit's version of HTML5 video are now mature enough to be used in the PS3 and Vita. HTML5 video player DRM is now being implemented. It appears all the pieces needed for Sony to have a full blown Media ecosystem are now in place. Firmware 4.40 may have those pieces and when Sony is ready the PS3 will get a MAJOR update to the HTML5 software stack.

RE: delay in releasing OpenMax_IL 1.2 from 2008 to Oct 2011 ==> This ARM paper from October 2011 gives the reasons for rewriting the Linux driver to support the IOMMU and DMA for ARM SoCs for Samsung (Media) and I suspect is the reason OpenMax_IL 1.2 was delayed from 2008 till October 2011 ("Multimedia devices: Video codec, camera interface, hdmi display interface, others" is what it supports) . Gstreamer had memory allocation issues that were solved in OpenMax_IL 1.2 which was released Oct 2011. Media needs large contiguous blocks of memory.

 

[jeff_rigby]

In hindsight the following is nearly proved and my stumbles in this thread always eventually point to supporting the endgame which is DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath and a ecosystem that includes all Vidipath platforms. It explains every Sony move since 2007 with the first CEA-2014 paper to the FCC.

The XB1 and PS4 were designed to be media hubs and game consoles! IPTV Media streaming has or will have a Power limitation of less than 21 watts which means both console designs had to provide for some way to meet this 21 watt limit. This caused the XB1 to use DDR3 memory which the ARM hardware in the APU uses to provide the IPTV streaming and DRM. For the PS4 using GDDR5, Sony moved all that ARM hardware that Kaveri and the XB1 uses for IPTV out of the APU into a second chip that also doubles as Southbridge which has it's own 256 MB of DDR3.

If Stacked HBM using 2.5D assembly on an interposer had been ready for the game consoles then the XB1 would have stayed with the Yukon design using HBM with wideIO using the DDR4 control standard and a PD-SOI Xenon chip would have also been placed on the Interposer for Backward Compatability. HBM using the wideIO interface can support low power IPTV modes and still support GDDR5 memory bandwidth for games. They still planned for ARM hardware to support low power IPTV. Since HBM was't available both consoles had to provide ways to meet the same goals and they chose different paths to do this. (Sony also had plans to use HBM and those were also scrapped.)

DLNA is a IPTV feature that must use the PS4 Southbridge ARM hardware! OK, now for the real issues that also caused the XB1 to delay DLNA till October of last year...Industry standards. There is a world wide convergance for TV as IPTV and Phone as VOIP to be delivered in the home over the broadband internet feed. A transistion to this with a FCC mandate starts June of 2015 where all US Cable TV VOD boxes like DVRs must use DLNA to stream TV as IPTV over the home network. The User Interface will be HTML5 and the FCC also mandated a common DRM (Playready) across the entire US so that any STB can be used in any city on any Cable TV system.

The Comcast RDK and Cable Labs use Gnome GTKwebkit and Rygel (DLNA server) and both use Gstreamer as the IPTV player. Sony does not use gstreamer for Open Source Licence required disclosure reasons but must use the same APIs. The PS3, PS4 and Vita use GTKwebkit APIs and the PS4 has Glib (Gnome library) so they MUST use the same APIs that Gnome Linux uses. Sony must wait for Gnome/GTKwebkit to create APIs that they will use with the native libraries they create for Playstation platforms. Rygel (Gnome DLNA Server using Gstreamer) and GTKwebkit are getting updates to use W3C extensions and they should be released for use this March and this is when DLNA should make it into the PS4. In any case Sony and Microsoft want to have certified platforms by June 2015 so that puts a outside cap on a firmware update roadmap.

Sony is now porting Playready DRM to the PS3 which at this late date means that the PS3 will also support DLNA CVP2. For us it means a massive update to the PS3 OS and modern features like DLNA will be upgraded to support the three box model allowing the PS3 DLNA player to be controlled by a phone or tablet. The PS3 has a secuity vulnerability that Sony detected (we think) just before the PS3 Slim was released and OpenGL was never ported to it to allow the same openGL desktop the PS4 has. You can see this in the PS3 requiring a reboot before and after using IPTV apps and in the Playstation store requiring HTML5 to use a game engine to support the openGl calls the store uses. If the Playready rewrite corrects or alleviates the vulnerability then we should see a PS3 with a browser desktop like the PS4 and most apps will be cross platform across all playstation platforms.

The above was in a leak from Sony and went on to say that if the vulnerability was fixed, Sony would support Other OS Linux on both the PS3 and PS4.

 

[jsnepo]

So will the PS Store not be an app anymore?

I really wish Sony would fix the PS3's friends list.

 

[Hanmik]

maybe this is part of the 40 year anniversary of Saturday Night live.?

 

[CozMick]

Wow! I was 5yrs younger when I created this thread

 

[jeff_rigby]

Wow! I was 5yrs younger when I created this thread

At that time no-one had any idea how HTML5 would change everything. The native libraries supporting HTML5 and WebGL will also be used for AR & WebAR and is another reason Sony is sticking so close to the GTK webkit and gstreamer APIs. (Gstreamer with CairoGL bindings)

 

[Jonnax]

Glib support doesn't imply all that much it adds a ton of features which are useful to making applications.
http://www.gtk.org/tutorial1.2/gtk_tut-20.html

 

[jeff_rigby]

Glib support doesn't imply all that much it adds a ton of features which are useful to making applications.
http://www.gtk.org/tutorial1.2/gtk_tut-20.html

Right but consider that PS Mobile is also based on a Gnome engine called Mono and Mono uses Glib. Android uses a functionally similar version of Glib also. Edit; Mono can only technically be considered to be Gnome just as Python because both use Glib. Mono was developed by the same team that created Gnome and was designed to use the same APIs and native libraries (Why reinvent the wheel).

Glib contains ICE and Telepathy functions that will be used to connect platforms to each other to support Video and audio chat as well as game streaming. It is in the PS4 and wasn't in the PS3. This limited the PS3 functionality to custom inside the Sony ecosystem features; Video chat to only friends and only through Sony servers, game streaming only to Sony platforms.

PS mobile can not be ported to the PS3 without Glib and an accelerated browser on the PS3 is not possible without CairoGL...both might be coming with the PS3 OS rewrite to use Playready which implies DLNA CVP2 support and that implies a software stack similar to the PS4 which all vidipath platforms have to support.

 

[MilesTeg]

I just don't see Sony giving a massive update or change to the PS3 OS at this late juncture. The console is basically dead.

 

[Jonnax]

Right but consider that PS Mobile is also based on a Gnome engine called Mono and Mono uses Glib. Android uses a version of Glib also.

Glib contains ICE and Telepathy functions that will be used to connect platforms to each other to support Video and audio chat as well as game streaming. It is in the PS4 and wasn't in the PS3. This limited the PS3 functionality to custom inside the Sony ecosystem features; Video chat to only friends and only through Sony servers, game streaming only to Sony platforms.

PS mobile can not be ported to the PS3 without Glib and an accelerated browser on the PS3 is not possible without CairoGL...both might be coming with the PS3 OS rewrite to use Playready which implies DLNA CVP2 support and that implies a software stack similar to the PS4 which all vidipath platforms have to support.

Mono isn't a GNOME project or an engine. It's a compiler for C# and a set of tools to give a cross platform implementation of .NET.

I'm also almost 100% that Android does not use glib. Do you have a link to source?

 

[Vashetti]

I just don't see Sony giving a massive update or change to the PS3 OS at this late juncture. The console is basically dead.

Yup, this is a pipedream.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I just don't see Sony giving a massive update or change to the PS3 OS at this late juncture. The console is basically dead.

Then why is Sony porting Playready to the PS3 at this late date? That is the point!!!

The PS3 didn't have Playready support. According to DRM today; the PS3 is still using Marlin.

But Sony hired someone to add playready support to the PS3. Sony Job posting 10/31/2014 Principal Engineer specializing in PlayReady

The primary role involves securing a well-known DRM solution to be used on PLAYSTATION®3, PlayStation®4 and PSVita™ for multimedia applications. You will be part of a small team composed of other software engineers based in London. You will work with this team to enhance the implementation and support integration. This is a contract role with the possibility to extend its duration.

Responsibilities
• Porting and securing of software components on multiple platforms such as PLAYSTATION®3, PlayStation®4 and PSVita™.
• Keeping implementation on target to meet a tight schedule
• Supporting the integration of software components with client applications being designed and implemented on parallel schedules

 

[jeff_rigby]

Mono isn't a GNOME project or an engine. It's a compiler for C# and a set of tools to give a cross platform implementation of .NET.

I'm also almost 100% that Android does not use glib. Do you have a link to source?

De Icaza started the GNOME project with Federico Mena in August 1997 to create a completely free desktop environment and component model for Linux and other Unix-like operating systems.[10] He also created the GNOME spreadsheet program, Gnumeric.

In 1999, de Icaza, along with Nat Friedman, co-founded Helix Code, a GNOME-oriented free software company that employed a large number of other GNOME hackers. In 2001, Helix Code, later renamed Ximian, announced the Mono Project, to be led by de Icaza, with the goal to implement Microsoft's new .NET development platform on Linux and Unix-like platforms. In August 2003, Ximian was acquired by Novell. There, de Icaza was Vice President of Developer Platform.

Many of the articles I've read state than Mono is analogous to Java and Java is a virtual machine/engine that translates a byte code to native language just as Mono does with C#. Mono by it'self is useless and needs something like Glib and GTK/Cairo to implement the C# code, I.E. Mono was designed to use Gnome libraries. I guess this might be dated as Mono is being used with a Unity game engine that provides the native libraries and/or access to native libraries like Android does for PS Mobile. This I think is what causes the confusion.

Android and Mono run on Linux and Unix like kernels. Glib and it's equivalent for Android contain the same functionality. Google just made sure all it's routines used the Berkley model for Open Source software licence and rewrote for efficiency and eliminated some routines. eGlib recently (a year ago or more) uses the more efficient Android source code.

Some of the new Linux kernels now support both Linux and Android L which is the latest Android.

 

[Diablos]

I just don't see Sony giving a massive update or change to the PS3 OS at this late juncture. The console is basically dead.

...which is really a shame because the OS is slower than ever and the store is one of the most frustrating experiences I have on anything. It's poorly optimized. It didn't have to be that way.

 

[AmyS]

Damn!

When this thread was created, all of the latest consoles were merely rumors, guesswork and pure speculation.

Now, there is one future console in active development (Nintendo's) and there are at least talks going on with AMD about successors to Xbox One and PS4 based on AMD's recent statements within the last 4-5 months about design wins for their semi-custom business.


And yes, the PS Store on PS3 runs absolutely awfully.

 

[BosSin]

Sweet Jesus, this thread still lives?!

I remember posting this almost 2 years ago, funny how it is still applicable today

 

[androvsky]

I gotta admit, it's a lot harder to get worked up about DLNA when there's a Plex app on both the PS4 and PS3.

 

[StuKen]

Many of the articles I've read state than Mono is analogous to Java and Java is a virtual machine/engine that translates a byte code to native language just as Mono does with C#. Mono by it'self is useless and needs something like Glib and GTK/Cairo to implement the C# code, I.E. Mono was designed to use Gnome libraries. I guess this might be dated as Mono is being used with a Unity game engine that provides the native libraries and/or access to native libraries like Android does for PS Mobile. This I think is what causes the confusion.

Android and Mono run on Linux and Unix like kernels. Glib and it's equivalent for Android contain the same functionality. Google just made sure all it's routines used the Berkley model for Open Source software licence and rewrote for efficiency and eliminated some routines. eGlib recently (a year ago or more) uses the more efficient Android source code.

Some of the new Linux kernels now support both Linux and Android L which is the latest Android.

Mono is to C# as Avian or JamVM is to Java. Mono is an open source implementation of the C# language specification and the CLI. Because there are Mono GTK bindings does not mean it was designed to use Gnome libraries.

Yet again Jeff, you demonstrate an uncanny knack of not understand anything.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Mono is to C# as Avian or JamVM is to Java. Mono is an open source implementation of the C# language specification and the CLI. Because there are Mono GTK bindings does not mean it was designed to use Gnome libraries.

Yet again Jeff, you demonstrate an uncanny knack of not understand anything.

Please enlighten me, the original Mono engine was about 2 megs in size. How did it implement C# code if it didn't call Gnome Libraries. This as I say above does not mean that Mono can't now call other platform native libraries or game engine APIs to do the same.

 

[Jonnax]

Many of the articles I've read state than Mono is analogous to Java and Java is a virtual machine/engine that translates a byte code to native language just as Mono does with C#. Mono by it'self is useless and needs something like Glib and GTK/Cairo to implement the C# code, I.E. Mono was designed to use Gnome libraries. I guess this might be dated as Mono is being used with a Unity game engine that provides the native libraries and/or access to native libraries like Android does for PS Mobile. This I think is what causes the confusion.

Android and Mono run on Linux and Unix like kernels. Glib and it's equivalent for Android contain the same functionality. Google just made sure all it's routines used the Berkley model for Open Source software licence and rewrote for efficiency and eliminated some routines. eGlib recently (a year ago or more) uses the more efficient Android source code.

Some of the new Linux kernels now support both Linux and Android L which is the latest Android.

No, just because someone associated with a project started another project does not mean that one depends on the other. Mono is not dependent on anything GNOME and it was not designed to use GNOME libraries.

Mono does not need GTK or Cairo, two libraries for implementing graphical user interfaces. It comes with a C# compiler, Runtime and Class libraries. Mono itself is not useless without some GUI toolkits. it is laughable to state this.

Mono is cross platform. It can be used on OSX, Linux or Windows http://www.mono-project.com/download/

Why does Glib's existence here have any importance? From Wiki:

GLib provides advanced data structures, such as memory chunks, doubly and singly linked lists, hash tables, dynamic strings and string utilities, such as a lexical scanner, string chunks (groups of strings), dynamic arrays, balanced binary trees, N-ary trees, quarks (a two-way association of a string and a unique integer identifier), keyed data lists, relations and tuples. Caches provide memory management.

GLib implements functions that provide threads, thread programming and related facilities such as primitive variable access, mutexes, asynchronous queues, secure memory pools, message passing and logging, hook functions (callback registering) and timers. Also message passing facilities such as byte order conversion and I/O channels.

Some other features of GLib include:

standard macros
warnings and assertions
dynamic loading of modules

It is simply a C library, that provides pretty low level functions.

GNOME is just one desktop environment and toolkit (GTK+), there are many others. Android doesn't use it because it does its own thing. I'm surprised you aren't talking about KDE intergration with the PS4 and Xbox with its Qt toolkit and Webkit originally coming from there.

This is what the mono site says about eGlib:

eglib is an embedded glib library available in the mono repo, which is a drop in replacement for glib for systems which don’t have glib (or for users that prefer a reduced/slimmed version).

Why does this have any relevance to anything?



Do you know what Linaro is? They are a group that work on optimising Android for ARM and they release optimised tools and kernels among other things.

Some of the new Linux kernels now support both Linux and Android L which is the latest Android.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Android is a operating system which runs on a Linux system in the same way that GNOME or KDE does. Linux is the Kernel of the operating system.

You are spreading misinformation about things you don't understand and don't spend the minimum amount of time verifying.

 

[jeff_rigby]

No, just because someone associated with a project started another project does not mean that one depends on the other. Mono is not dependent on anything GNOME and it was not designed to use GNOME libraries.

Mono does not need GTK or Cairo, two libraries for implementing graphical user interfaces. It comes with a C# compiler, Runtime and Class libraries. Mono itself is not useless without some GUI toolkits. it is laughable to state this.

Mono is cross platform. It can be used on OSX, Linux or Windows http://www.mono-project.com/download/

GNOME is just one desktop environment and toolkit (GTK+), there are many others. Android doesn't use it because it does its own thing. I'm surprised you aren't talking about KDE intergration with the PS4 and Xbox with its Qt toolkit and Webkit originally coming from there.

You are talking about a Mono package and I am talking about Mono the engine. Mono can be used with a Unity game engine or a Android package, or a iOS package and the package contains the "runtime" libraries that can be called by Mono.

Mono was originally designed to use the Gnome package, a set of cross platform libraries that were also chosen to support Webkit on the Gnome/GTK desktop.

Why does Glib's existence here have any importance? From Wiki: It is simply a C library, that provides pretty low level functions.

I brought up Glib because including Glib in a Playstation platform allows access to other platforms outside the Sony ecosystem which the PS3 does not have and the PS4 does. It's required for cross platform game streaming and chat. Android has libraries that contain ICE and more analogous to Glib so cross platform chat between Android and PS4 is possible without needing a Sony server.

On the PS4 the native libraries, the mono "runtime" as you call it, all support Gnome APIs and we are back to the original version of Mono that called Gnome libraries which requires Glib. I suppose you think that PS Mobile on the PS4 will require Android on the PS4? It won't!

without needing a Sony server. = almost OPEN platform able to communicate with other platforms. This is required by Vidipath and against self interest on Sony's part unless they see a bigger picture.

 

[Live Free or Die]

This is good news. thanks for the info Jeff!

 

[jeff_rigby]

From post # 67 in this thread 5 years ago. "Google and Sony already announced a partnership that will bring Chrome OS to Bravia TVs" and 2015 Sony Bravia TVs now use Android L.

5 years from leak to implementation! There are similar gems all throughout this thread.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Jeff, have you ever coded professionally? Mono as a "Gnome engine"...seriously :-D You're just putting words you don't quite understand one after another :-DDD

 

[StuKen]

You are talking about a Mono package and I am talking about Mono the engine. Mono can be used with a Unity game engine or a Android package, or a iOS package and the package contains the "runtime" libraries that can be called by Mono.

Mono was originally designed to use the Gnome package, a set of cross platform libraries that were also chosen to support Webkit on the Gnome/GTK desktop.

I brought up Glib because including Glib in a Playstation platform allows access to other platforms outside the Sony ecosystem which the PS3 does not have and the PS4 does. It's required for cross platform game streaming and chat. Android has libraries that contain ICE and more analogous to Glib so cross platform chat between Android and PS4 is possible without needing a Sony server.

On the PS4 the native libraries, the mono "runtime" as you call it, all support Gnome APIs and we are back to the original version of Mono that called Gnome libraries which requires Glib. I suppose you think that PS Mobile on the PS4 will require Android on the PS4? It won't!

None of the things you are linking are in any way coupled.

Glib is a c library that gives convenience access to complex data types. It is not an abstraction layer for anything and has no dependencies or integration with anything outside of c stl. The first line of the wikipedia page on it expressly says it is not tied to any gtk dependencies.

The Mono runtime libraries are not tied to any gnome or gtk libraries. Python uses tcl/tk bindings for its default windowing toolkit. Does that make it designed designed to use tcl?

Webkit gnome? Webkit was a fork of the khtml which was a kde project. Where does that leave your ecosystem?

These are the ramblings of a madman pay no heed.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

From post # 67 in this thread 5 years ago. "Google and Sony already announced a partnership that will bring Chrome OS to Bravia TVs" and 2015 Sony Bravia TVs now use Android L.

5 years from leak to implementation! There are similar gems all throughout this thread.

This is like that Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe thread, right?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Jeff, have you ever coded professionally? Mono as a "Gnome engine"...seriously :-D You're just putting words you don't quite understand one after another :-DDD

One more time as it has implications: Mono was an engine of apx 2 megs in size and it's useless unless it can call other native language libraries. Since the person who started the Gnome project, which is the minimum collection of cross platform native language libraries that can be called to support a desktop or a javascript engine to support GTKwebkit, also started the Mono project, he used the same Gnome libraries to support Mono on Gnome.

On a iOS or Android platform you have to provide runtime libraries but on a Platform that supports Gnome APIs, you don't. The PS4 supports Gnome APIs.

PS3 is another story as it doesn't have Glib and doesn't support CairoGL which is how Mono writes to the screen. This may be why Sony is so iffy on PS Mobile being supported by the PS3 when Mono was ported to the PS3 using a game engine for the runtime package.

 

[StuKen]

One more time as it has implications: Mono was an engine of apx 2 megs in size and it's useless unless it can call other native language libraries. Since the person who started the Gnome project, which is the minimum collection of cross platform native language libraries that can be called to support a desktop or a javascript engine to support GTKwebkit, also started the Mono project, he used the same Gnome libraries to support Mono on Gnome.

On a iOS or Android platform you have to provide runtime libraries but on a Platform that supports Gnome APIs, you don't. The PS4 supports Gnome APIs.

PS3 is another story as it doesn't have Glib and doesn't support CairoGL which is how Mono writes to the screen. This may be why Sony is so iffy on PS Mobile being supported by the PS3 when Mono was ported to the PS3 using a game engine for the runtime package.

Mono is not an engine. It is a C# compiler, interpreter and class library that implements ECMA-355. The C# interpreter contains no statically or dynamically linked GTK libraries. The CLR class library contains no GTK code. It is 100% separate from any Gnome codebase and has no dependencies on it.

Gnome is not as you put it a "the minimum collection of cross platform native language libraries that can be called to support a desktop or a javascript engine to support GTKwebkit" It is a desktop windowing system for linux and a collection of supporting API's to allow developers develop applications within the framework it provides.


You dont have any understanding of any of the things you are trying to link.

 

[jeff_rigby]

None of the things you are linking are in any way coupled.

Glib is a c library that gives convenience access to complex data types. It is not an abstraction layer for anything and has no dependencies or integration with anything outside of c stl. The first line of the wikipedia page on it expressly says it is not tied to any gtk dependencies.

You are confusing Gnome's Glib with GNU glibc.. Gnome is GNU but GNU is not Gnome. Glib contains some of the (minimum) glibc and adds to it Gnome dependencies. You can write an application with either as there is an overlap but you can't write a Gnome application that can dbus with other Gnome applications with just glibc.

GLib provides the core application building blocks for libraries and applications written in C. It provides the core object system used in GNOME, the main loop ..

The GNU C Library, commonly known as glibc, is the GNU Project's implementation of the C standard library. Originally written by the Free Software Foundation (FSF) for the GNU operating system

Glib also provides dbus support which is a necessary standard to allow applications to pass data between each other (Android supports dbus). Another necessary feature for Connected home applications or apps that are cross platform. For instance a Contact/friends list working with the ooVoo vidoe chat program or any of the other advanced features that ooVoo says they are working on for the PS4. ooVoo will also use the ICE and telepathy routines in eGlib.

 

[Flachmatuch]

One more time as it has implications: Mono was an engine of apx 2 megs in size and it's useless unless it can call other native language libraries. Since the person who started the Gnome project, which is the minimum collection of cross platform native language libraries that can be called to support a desktop or a javascript engine to support GTKwebkit, also started the Mono project, he used the same Gnome libraries to support Mono on Gnome.

We've been using Mono for ten years on my projects, purely for server side stuff. As far as I know (which may be wrong), we didn't use a single line of Gnome functionality in it.

It. Is. Not. A. Gnome. Engine.

 

[StuKen]

You are confusing Glib with glibc.





Glib also provides dbus support which is a necessary standard to allow applications to pass data between each other. Another necessary feature for Connected home applications or apps that are cross platform. For instance a Contact/friends list working with the ooVoo vidoe chat program or any of the other advanced features that ooVoo says they are working on for the PS4.

I am not confusing anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLib

Currently dbus is deprecated within glib and it is not in any sense the only ipc method available.

You hadn't added you edit while i was replying Jeff but it now appears you are confusing eglibc with glib.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

This

We've been using Mono for ten years on my projects, purely for server side stuff. As far as I know (which may be wrong), we didn't use a single line of Gnome functionality in it.

It. Is. Not. A. Gnome. Engine.

Aaaaand this. Mono is absolutely not a Gnome only thing. It uses a couple of libraries from Gnome, but it does not require Gnome itself.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I am not confusing anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLib

Currently dbus is deprecated within glib and it is not in any sense the only ipc method available.

You hadn't added you edit while i was replying Jeff but it now appears you are confusing eglibc with glib.

dbus is still very much in use and in Glib. One of the modules used by older software was depreciated.

GDBus (D-Bus support in GLib)

Since version 2.26, GLib includes a D-Bus binding. This is intended to replace the DBus-GLib bindings and many applications have started migrating their code. See the documentation for the high-level and low-level API for more details.

DBus-GLib (obsolete)

 

[jeff_rigby]

We've been using Mono for ten years on my projects, purely for server side stuff. As far as I know (which may be wrong), we didn't use a single line of Gnome functionality in it.

It. Is. Not. A. Gnome. Engine.

I never said it was. Please read MY posts not the misunderstanding of others. Mono is a virtual engine and can call any API. The first version of Mono called Gnome APIs as that was most familiar to the creator of the Gnome project. Gnome APIs are supported in the PS4, Vita and to a lesser extent the PS3. Mono I think requires Glib which technically makes it Gnome.

You guys are being picky and not discussing the real implications as it relates to Playstation.

 

[Flachmatuch]

I never said it was. Please read MY posts not the misunderstanding of others. Mono is a virtual engine and can call any API. The first version of Mono called Gnome APIs as that was most familiar to the creator of the Gnome project. Gnome APIs are supported in the PS4, Vita and to a lesser extent the PS3.

->

Right but consider that PS Mobile is also based on a Gnome engine called Mono and Mono uses Glib. Android uses a version of Glib also.

 

[jeff_rigby]

->

Mono I think requires Glib which technically makes it Gnome. So what if it was originally developed to use Gnome APIs and the developer didn't reinvent the wheel and still uses Glib......So what that some consider anything using Glib to be Gnome. It's an engine that can call any API but at it's core it was developed by the same guy that developed Gnome.

Gnome was designed as the minimum set of libraries to support GTKwebkit or a desktop using cross platform libraries.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Mono I think requires Glib which technically makes it Gnome.

TBH I have no idea what "being technically Gnome" means. If I use library A in my project does that project become "technically" "library A"?

Mono is simply something that allows you to run Microsoft .NET stuff on other platforms, including Linux, which is much cheaper - and better in many cases - to maintain than Windows (and we can still use the MS development tools which are actually pretty good). It uses Glib for low level functions and it also has C# wrappers for higher level Gnome stuff like GTK (which we never used). It is not a "Gnome engine", it is not technically a part of Gnome, and the Glib functionality could technically be replaced with other libraries. As far as I know.

It's an engine that can call any API but at it's core it was developed by the same guy that developed Gnome.

It is a set of tools (most importantly a CLR runtime + standard libraries) that allows you to run .NET code on any platform. Who developed it does not make it "Gnome". No idea what "engine" would mean in this case

Gnome was designed as the minimum set of libraries to support GTKwebkit or a desktop using cross platform libraries.

Mono has nothing whatsoever to do with that. It uses low level functions from Glib because I guess it was convenient and the implementation was already there and the developer who was in both projects knew this library well. Happens all the time. It also provides a c# "wrapper" for other Gnome functions but that doesn't make it "technically Gnome" either.