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[onQ123]

That would be suicide. Consoles don't sell at those prices, they already tried that this gen.

don't sell & over 120 million sold (PS3 + Xbox 360) don't go together.


starting at $399 doesn't mean it's going to stay that price.


if it's what you want $399 - $499 is not going to stop you from getting it.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

So 3 Teraflops? Admittedly I'm not the most technical, but wouldn't that be hard to do practically in terms of cost/heat?

1T? Might not be quite possible taking from what we have available today, but >500 is not that hard. TDP of modern APUs (i'll use the A10) at 32nm range from 17w to 100w. The higher end of course is off the table, so lets stick to an underclocked 65W maximum. You're looking at ~700GFlops on just heatsink and chassis fan. Comparable to what we have in consoles today.

If the new consoles use higher end parts, then it depends on how improved those new architectures are per clock. It's POSSIBLE using most optimistic guesses. though...

 

[KageMaru]

That would be suicide. Consoles don't sell at those prices, they already tried that this gen.

Well let's look at the facts:

-MS and Sony lost billions this gen and clearly do not wish to repeat this.

-Both MS and Sony are building these systems to be more than just gaming machines, they both will feature multi-media support beyond what they currently offer on the PS360.

-Unless Nintendo drops the price of the Wii-U, the fact that their console reaches $350 actually gives MS and Sony breathing room for $400, especially if they can prove it's a step up over the Wii-U in terms of hardware offered.

-Both MS and Sony will have the PS360 to sell to the more price conscious consumer while leaving their new, high end, consoles for the early adopters who are willing to pay the premium price.

-Both companies can drop the price within the year if sales lag enough.

With current gen consoles still at the price they currently are, I wouldn't be surprised if MS and Sony try for a $400 starting point next gen.

 

[Elios83]

That would be suicide. Consoles don't sell at those prices, they already tried that this gen.

Actually no it's the opposite, this gen has proven that there are at least 20m people willing to buy a home console at 399$. By the time that target audience is exploited, they have more than enough time to cut manufacturing costs and price.
Also we're seeing Nintendo selling 5 years old hardware with a tablet controller at 300/350$.
Expecting less than 400$ from Sony/MS is crazy, they won't just offer vastly updated graphics but they'll have their new control interfaces as well (with cameras, sensors, touch pad/screens).
One way to lower the entry price is to offer subscription deals with online services which is something I expect them to do.

 

[charsace]

CPU+APU+GPU+Parallel Programming tools that customized for each system = a lot of power. I can see some great looking games be produced on these systems as devs improve parallel programming. Even at launch I can see some games being way a head of the pack because of the programmers.

Companies that use SDK will still put out nice looking games, but the companies that write their own stuff on this system will be the ones that put out the best looking stuff.

 

[AdventureRacing]

-MS and Sony lost billions this gen and clearly do not wish to repeat this.

Even with the billion dollar write off due to RROD MS has made a pretty hefty profit this gen.

I don't think charging $399 is that bad at all and i think it's a near certainty at this point.

 

[KageMaru]

Actually no it's the opposite, this gen has proven that there are at least 20m people willing to buy a home console at 399$. By the time that target audience is exploited, they have more than enough time to cut manufacturing costs and price.
Also we're seeing Nintendo selling 5 years old hardware with a tablet controller at 300/350$.
Expecting less than 400$ from Sony/MS is crazy, they won't just offer vastly updated graphics but they'll have their new control interfaces as well (with cameras, sensors, touch pad/screens).
One way to lower the entry price is to offer subscription deals with online services which is something I expect them to do.

Spot on IMO.

Edit:

Even with the billion dollar write off due to RROD MS has made a pretty hefty profit this gen.

I don't think charging $399 is that bad at all and i think it's a near certainty at this point.

True, but I get the impression they lost more early on than they anticipated. Maybe due to the whole RRoD fiasco, I'm not sure.

Also with them profiting off of that division, I'm sure they aren't eager to go back into the red.

 

[Apophis2036]

>.< Don't blame me for dreaming mang. I want both of these machines to be nothing short of beasts.

I was joking man .

I don't blame you for dreaming, people like me love hearing about the possible new hardware but it's important you do realise that you are dreaming, nothing more, or you risk disappointing not only yourself but also a large number of people eagerly awaiting PS4.

Everyone wants PS4 / 720 (or at least one of them) to be as powerful as possible but you also have to realise that they are still consoles and as such have to be relatively small form (to get them in family / living rooms), which then has an impact on how powerful the chips can be because of over heating.

MS esp will be wary of the heat issue after the 360 hardware problems, if the PS3 / 360 generation told them anything it was that the CPU's at least were clocked far too high for the time.

They are at the end of the day both companies and want to make a profit, to say that PS4 is going to have a 3TF GPU with 8GB's of Ram and a 4Ghz CPU just isn't feasible from a price, power and heat perspective.

If you really want native 4k gaming with super powerful CPU's / GPU's then maybe PC gaming is for you, consoles will always get the 'poor mans' version of multi platform games.

Waiting until late 2014 to release PS4 for stacked memory ect is out of the question for Sony imo, they cannot let MS have any sort of lead on them, nevermind a full year.

A large number of people will buy a WiiU this Xmas / early 2013 just for something new and shiny to play with as they are bored to tears with these consoles after 7 years, if the 720 is out in Nov 2013 and people bite again just how many people will bite yet again in early / late 2014 for PS4 ?. It will be released in Nov 2013 alongside the 720 i think.

A 4 core AMD CPU / 1.8 - 2 TFLOP GPU / 2GB's of Ram will make for a fantastically powerful PS4, wanting more is just greedy and unrealistic tbh.

 

[Ashes]

I thought trustzone was for tablet competition. Guess not.

 

[RaijinFY]

All you need to ask your friend is this: Will there be a discrete GPU?

Also-

1. Will the new console's be able to run Star Wars 1313 / Agnis Philosophy at the quality that was shown in the technical demonstrations?
2. Will the ports between the two consoles be similar, or will we see a current gen fiasco where the 360 beats PS3?
3. In relative terms, how powerful will the console's be compared to whatever desktop part is available on the market when you factor in APU + Discrete GPU?

Well his friend doesnt play much so i doubt you will get answers...

 

[Melchiah]

PS2 did not drop really fast in Europe it cost as much as 400 at launch and they were shortages for months .
The first price drop for PS2 in NA was 18 months after release .

399 is not a ridiculous price point both Sony and MS sold over 10 million consoles at that .
In the first year when you know the hardcore going to by your consoles if you can sell it for 399 and break even or make profit it make sense to do so .
You also have to take in account how many units they can make for the first year , then you can drop 50 - 100 of in the second year .

Actually the PS2 cost 500€ in Europe at launch. I'm perfectly fine with 400-500€ launch price for PS4.

 

[i-Lo]

How when file is from freaking 2010. It's almost irrelevant at this stage.

Yea, things like that from 2 years ago are subjective modification.

That said, older info pertaining to things like RAM and GPU could enlighten us on the absolute base specs aimed back in 2010.

As an educated guess, I think the final specs should be agreed upon by sometime between Q1-Q2 next year if the console is to hit the market in Q1 2014.

 

[CorrisD]

320 non-GCN shaders at 800 Mhz is a far cry from 1.8Tflops.
It's weird that Sony is using one, older graphics architecture as an APU and will presumably use another, newer architecture as a GPU...
Maybe the APU is there for Cell emulation, for at least all the PSN games, and major disc releases.

I've seen some others suggest this before, it would be great if true and that Sony had sorted out BC for the PS3 properly and also use it for PS4 games.

 

[mrklaw]

Unfinished Swan has made me think I'd be ok with 720p with lots of AA and high IQ next gen. It's so clean and crisp with no obvious aliasing, and that's high contrast edges etc. that kind of quality with more detailed environments and models would be plenty for me.

 

[AgentP]

Even with the billion dollar write off due to RROD MS has made a pretty hefty profit this gen.

I don't think there is any public info on how much the 360 cost to produce, total RRoD and XBL investment costs. If they made that money back I'd be very surprised.

 

[KageMaru]

I don't think there is any public info on how much the 360 cost to produce, total RRoD and XBL investment costs. If they made that money back I'd be very surprised.

It's all public knowledge through their financial reports. IIRC you could see how much they lost on the xbox division before it was all merged into the E&D division. Even after the merge, taking into account the profits made by the division, the system should be in the black. Even considering the other products in the division (Zune, Windows phone, Kin) dragging profits down, the division has generally still been pulling in profits for a couple years I think.

I'm not much into the financial side of these companies but I'm pretty sure you can calculate the 360 has been profitable for a while now.

 

[i-Lo]

At the end of the day, the proof will be in the pudding. Makes me wonder if we'll see fidelity like this (720p plus AA and AF at 30fps):

Forbidden Land WIP

Forbidden Land WIP2

 

[coldfoot]

I think the two final piece of information that we need is
A. The number of compute unites / SPU / ALU in the discrete GPU.
B. The amount of total system / video ram.

That should tell us everything.

You're forgetting the most important aspect, memory bandwidth.

 

[Respawn]

That would be suicide. Consoles don't sell at those prices, they already tried that this gen.

For you maybe

 

[Strike]

That would be suicide. Consoles don't sell at those prices, they already tried that this gen.

PS3 and 360 are still selling bundles at $300 and above this holiday season. The Wii U is launching at $299/$349. Odds are since MS/Sony will be going the multimedia/high end game machine route again, they'll find a way to justify the cost. I say they will at least go for $349 and at most $449. $500 psychological barrier might be pushing it. You wont see another $600 dollar fiasco again. Hardware-wise Sony seemed to have learned their lesson with the Vita. MS might do something out of left field and subsidize the cost of their console.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Was there a "$600 dollar fiasco"? I don't think the real problem here was the price, but what they had to offer at that time: Games which didn't look much better than the competition, bad online service, etc ... I think we have reached a point with this generation where they can release a $499-599 console and it will be sold out for a long time. People are hungering for a new generation.

 

[specialguy]

Was there a "$600 dollar fiasco"? I don't think the real problem here was the price, but what they had to offer at that time: Games which didn't look much better than the competition, bad online service, etc ... I think we have reached a point with this generation where they can release a $499-599 console and it will be sold out for a long time. People are hungering for a new generation.

I dont think a console can really sell well at 599. That is a barrier.

The high initial price is OK I think, especially if you offer the experience (read, graphics) to match, which PS3 didn't. But you'll have to price reduce pretty fast. But I do remember selling a launch PS3 on ebay for $1200 (yeah, anybody remember that? It happened, for a couple days PS3 demanded crazy ebay prices). So obviously, it can be done and beyond.

499/399 at first might, might, be doable. 399/299 is probably the realistic target though.

The leaked docs said MS was going for 299. I bet in the end they come in at 399/299 though.

 

[M°°nblade]

Actually the PS2 cost 500&#8364; in Europe at launch. I'm perfectly fine with 400-500&#8364; launch price for PS4.

I never got the discrepancy between USA and EU prices before this generation. I remember a lot of PS magazines complaining about the high PS2 launch price as well, begging sony to lower it. Importing an NTSC PS2 was pretty popular in 2000.

PS2: $299 - &#8364;599

PS3: $599 - &#8364;599

What caused the 1:2 -> 1:1 jump? It can't be just the decrease of the value of the dollar, can it?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I don't know. $300 seems a bit low if you look at current prices for Xbox 360/PS3 and Wii U. There is also inflation:

PS3:

$599 in 2006 -> $690 in 2013.

Xbox 360 Core:

$299 in 2005 -> $355 in 2013.

Xbox 360 Premium:

$399 in 2005 -> $475 in 2013.

Not sure how many people bought the "Core" version of the Xbox 360, I didn't. If there is really off-the-shelf tech like x86 etc. in those new consoles, it should be ridiculously easy to shrink those components in the future and reduce the price sooner. Maybe they want to start with a relatively high price because early adoptors will buy them regardless, and then reduce it after a while.

 

[jeff_rigby]

You're forgetting the most important aspect, memory bandwidth.

Yes, many things have been forgotten. The best design is ONE SoC not APU + discrete GPU that needs it's own memory. Only if they can't get the performance they are targeting in one SoC with forge specs available @ their targeted mass production date would they have a discrete GPU. And if it did require a discrete GPU, the design must be easily refreshed so that down the road it can become a 1 SoC solution.

The specs (from April 2010 PDF) appear to be 10X & 300fps to support glass-less S3D on a 4K TV with 5 discrete video streams that have their own GPU calculated/generated perspective (20 degrees different S3D for each of the 5 glass-less hot spots). This requires a very large memory bandwidth. I believe the XMB PS3 screen shows/demos what's coming; under Film there are 5+ video previews all running at the same time, an animated background and "What's new" shows zooming and trapezoid manipulation.

There would be no need to move from 4 desktop CPUs @ 3GHz to 8 Jaguar @ 1.6GHz to save TDP with the specs given by sweetvar26 for the APU and a discrete second GPU. The specs for the GPU in the APU are lower than off the shelf AMD APUs which does not make sense. Designing a custom APU that is less powerful? Something else in there that needs a large TDP budget like BC PPUs and SPUs? But if they are only being used for BC there should be no TDP issue.

On the other hand if Sony and Microsoft don't mind losing money the first year or so and are looking to a refresh in 2014-2015 @ 20nm or 14nm on 20nm plane then this APU + GPU could be possible.

Anyway the specs for PS4 appear to have been known in early 2010 and that's when a design for next generation would have started. We are confusing early developer platform changes with incremental design changes.

 

[RaijinFY]

An APU with 320 shaders @ 800 MHzm would only provide 512 giga flops of GPU power. With a new architecture, maybe it would be 4x in real world performance. Not good enough for a new gen, IMO.


However if the APU's primary use case is similar to that of the cell in that the shader processing power is used like the SPE's, the it could be considered a very powerful CPU and paired with a 1+ Tflop GPU would be really powerful system.

Re-reading sweetvar's posts reminded me the pastebin info posted a couple of month ago...

http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r

Though an A8-3870k has 400 shaders.

 

[Moegames]

Well let's look at the facts:

-MS and Sony lost billions this gen and clearly do not wish to repeat this.

-Both MS and Sony are building these systems to be more than just gaming machines, they both will feature multi-media support beyond what they currently offer on the PS360.

-Unless Nintendo drops the price of the Wii-U, the fact that their console reaches $350 actually gives MS and Sony breathing room for $400, especially if they can prove it's a step up over the Wii-U in terms of hardware offered.

-Both MS and Sony will have the PS360 to sell to the more price conscious consumer while leaving their new, high end, consoles for the early adopters who are willing to pay the premium price.

-Both companies can drop the price within the year if sales lag enough.

With current gen consoles still at the price they currently are, I wouldn't be surprised if MS and Sony try for a $400 starting point next gen.

MS lost billions with the xbox 360? I think you need to re-do the math...they been in the green for quite some time now. I cannot comment on the PS3 as i do not know the figures so i keep my mouth shut if i have not done my homework before spewing out gibberish.

 

[disap.ed]

Though an A8-3870k has 400 shaders.

Not enough shaders.

 

[Proelite]

Re-reading sweetvar's posts reminded me the pastebin info posted a couple of month ago...

http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r

Though an A8-3870k has 400 shaders.

A8-3870k with 6850 onboard is impossible. It will be more than just a redesign, it'll be a major engineering breakthrough to have an APU like that.

 

[filopilo]

At the end of the day, the proof will be in the pudding. Makes me wonder if we'll see fidelity like this (720p plus AA and AF at 30fps):

Forbidden Land WIP

Forbidden Land WIP2

That's pretty low expectations.The kind, i can assure you will be easily surpassed.

 

[Canis lupus]

Actually the PS2 cost 500€ in Europe at launch. I'm perfectly fine with 400-500€ launch price for PS4.

Indeed. PS2 was 20.000 belgian francs(€500) at the time.

I would definetly buy a €500 console again. We pay that much for smartphones and tablets, sure I'll do it for a console/mediacenter.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Micron 20nm NAND Flash Powers 44TB Solid-State Storage System for Big Data Oct 16 2012.

Micron's 20nm monolithic 128Gb device was the first in the industry to enable 1Tb of data storage in a single fingertip-size package (thanks to stacking of eight dies). It is currently in mass production and shipping to numerous customers for use in a variety of storage applications.

Apple eyes 20 nm quad-core chips for next-gen iPad&#8232;&#8232; Posted on October 13, 2012

Hsu also notes that Apple began verifying TSMC's 20nm process in August 2012 and may begin risk production as soon as November 2012. Volume production, says the analyst, is expected to kick off in the fourth quarter of 2013.

&#8232;&#8232;Unsurprisingly, the 20nm quad-core chips are expected to make their way into iTVs and even MacBooks.

If the Seronix quote is accurate "First quarter 2014 for PS4" then 22-20nm is possible. Risk production Nov 2012 is close enough to Oct that test chips to Microsoft mentioned in the MisterXmedia cite is possible. The above is TSMC and AMD-GloFlo/IBM may be more advanced.

We are looking at 6-8 months to go from what we were expecting (28nm) to 20-22nm. As far as performance is concerned 28nm on SOI and 20nm on bulk may be a wash but Volcanic Islands 2014 designs are at 20nm and gate last bulk process silicon so that TSMC can also produce the chips. You do not want to release a design for a game console that eliminates TSMC from producing the silicon till a major refresh redesign (2015?). That plus full HSA including full HSA for a second discrete GPU if it has one.

Altera intends to launch 20nm products next year with volume production starting in 2014, Bradley Howe, senior vice president for R&D at Altera, told a meeting in London this morning.

The process will deliver twice the density of 28nm and a 60% reduction in static and dynamic power, said Howe. It will deliver 40Gbit/s transceiver and 28Gbit/s backplanes.

When it is architected for high performance, it will deliver 5TFLOPS DSPs, said Howe.

The 20nm process for which Altera's products are being developed is TSMC&#8217;s bulk CMOS process. Howe said the TSMC&#8217;s 20nm SRAM is now yielding &#8216;extremely well&#8217; .

"TSMC&#8217;s 20nm SRAM is now yielding &#8216;extremely well&#8217;" echos AMD/GloFlo statement on 20nm and both announce this, in fact all announce this within days of each other.

 

[CorrisD]

MS lost billions with the xbox 360? I think you need to re-do the math...they been in the green for quite some time now. I cannot comment on the PS3 as i do not know the figures so i keep my mouth shut if i have not done my homework before spewing out gibberish.

I imagine he was taking into account the original Xbox which iirc lost them a lot of money they never made back along with the 360 and some of the earlier problems and costs it had.

And I think you mean being in the black, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has made back their initial investment in R&D and such, the PS3 has also been in the black for a whole but they lost even more money that I doubt they will ever really make back.

 

[slider]

Indeed. PS2 was 20.000 belgian francs(&#8364;500) at the time.

I would definetly buy a &#8364;500 console again. We pay that much for smartphones and tablets, sure I'll do it for a console/mediacenter.

I'd prefer not to but I would too.

But the question is how big is that demographic and how quickly can MS and Sony reduce the sticker price for a more "mainstream" appeal? If they aim to launch at £/$500... there are lots of variables. Profitability and cost reduction principal amongst them.

 

[Elios83]

Micron 20nm NAND Flash Powers 44TB Solid-State Storage System for Big Data.



Apple eyes 20 nm quad-core chips for next-gen iPad&#8232;&#8232; Posted on October 13, 2012



If the Seronix quote is accurate "First quarter 2014 for PS4" then 22-20nm is possible. Risk production Nov 2012 is close enough to Oct that test chips to Microsoft mentioned in the MisterXmedia cite is possible. The above is TSMC and AMD-GloFlo/IBM may be more advanced.

We are looking at 6-8 months to go from what we were expecting (28nm) to 20-22nm. As far as performance is concerned 28nm on SOI and 20nm on bulk may be a wash but Volcanic Islands 2014 designs are at 20nm and gate last bulk process silicon so that TSMC can also produce the chips. You do not want to release a design for a game console that eliminates TSMC from producing the silicon till a major refresh redesign (2015?). That plus full HSA including full HSA for a second discrete GPU if it has one.

PS4 and Xbox next will be designed around the 28nm process imo because it will be the only one feasible for mass production with decent yields.The target release date for both products is the end of 2013, the physical retail units will be ready by mid 2013 to go in production. Also the manufacturing process is chosen at the beginning of the design process, back then it's impossibile that Sony and Microsoft chose to risk to go with a 20-22nm design, if delays happened it would have been suicide.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PS4 and Xbox next will be designed around the 28nm process imo because it will be the only one feasible for mass production with decent yields.The target release date for both products is the end of 2013, the physical retail units will be ready by mid 2013 to go in production. Also the manufacturing process is chosen at the beginning of the design process, back then it's impossible that Sony and Microsoft chose to risk to go with a 20-22nm design, if delays happened it would have been suicide.

Very true and I looked for information and posted it here. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43347306&postcount=5214

AMD and IBM have been working together since 2008. The design specs for PS4 and Xbox 720 were in place by 2010.

Key is this: From 2008:

the latest news on the web announces that the company has also started working on the 22 nanometer technology, the next step after 32nm. This is a long shot move, as the technology will not be ready before 2012, while products manufactured under the process should surface in the first half of 2013.

According to the news, AMD is working on the 22nm process with IBM, which may prove to be beneficial for both companies.

sweetvar26 says that they are 6 months behind, change 22 nm to ready last half of 2013 which makes the Seronix 1st quarter 2014 for PS4 to fit in the timeline.

IBM already testing 22nm for Playstation

Register work at 22nm by IBM (GloFlo, IBM and Samsung are sharing technology) for Playstation and Sony stating they were skipping the 32nm node for Cell is a possible hint.

- Owned the register file cell qualification analysis in the 22nm node
- Owned the design of a 3.2GHz one read one write custom register file array in the 22nm node.

Edit: It appears that the 20nm node is when 3D stacking takes off for both AMD and TSMC, SimiAccurate and the Sony CTO are talking TSVs and stacking for PS4.

I'm hoping someone in the industry will step up and confirm or deny this.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Remember this from the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint thread also found here.

ANALYST: XBOX 720 WILL COST $99

Michael Pachter, analyst for Wedbush Securities, has gone on record saying that as far as he’s concerned, the next Xbox (which most are still calling the 720, in lieu of an official name) will cost just $99.

Speaking at the Evolve conference, Pachter said that he thinks Microsoft have got their console strategy right, and predicts that the next Xbox is “going to be your television as well”, suggesting a built in tuner.

“You won’t need a ‘smart TV’ when you’ve got an Xbox 720, it will be your television and your internet,” he said.

“It’s going to be open architecture and I think its real trick will be that one Xbox will be able to display television to as many screens as you have in your possession.”

He also claims that the next Xbox will run Windows “for sure”, and you’ll be able to use SmartGlass to “shoot off” different channels all over the house. “That is happening, that I’m certain of,” he confirms, boldly, and apparently with some authority.

But that pricing claim?

“I’m pretty confident that in the US Microsoft is going to partner with a cable TV provider, so I expect that the console will be priced like a smart phone. I expect you’ll be paying $99 for the console with a cable TV subscription,” Patcher added.

The Xbox 720 powerpoint would support the above.

If the Xbox 720 is going to ALSO be a cablebox selling for $99 (with subsidy) then it can't be a beast with high power and heat dissipation. It could have several SKUs with add-on GPU and more memory and perhaps without tuner. The QOS patent and QOS mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint would allow different performance designs.

The 9000 series GPU is a mystery and it's features might lend it'self to the above.

 

[KageMaru]

MS lost billions with the xbox 360? I think you need to re-do the math...they been in the green for quite some time now. I cannot comment on the PS3 as i do not know the figures so i keep my mouth shut if i have not done my homework before spewing out gibberish.

I meant the cost of developing and launching the console along with the initial hit on every unit sold before it became profitable. It's true MS has made up the money they lost early on with the 360, but I get the feeling both companies want to profit off of their next gen hardware sooner than later.

 

[thuway]

Remember this from the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint thread also found here.

ANALYST: XBOX 720 WILL COST $99

The Xbox 720 powerpoint would support the above.

If the Xbox 720 is going to ALSO be a cablebox selling for $99 (with subsidy) then it can't be a beast with high power and heat dissipation. It could have several SKUs with add-on GPU and more memory and perhaps without tuner. The QOS patent and QOS mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint would allow different performance designs.

The 9000 series GPU is a mystery and it's features might lend it'self to the above.

Jeff, the Xbox 720 can be a powerhouse and a cable device at the same time. Pachter is pointing out the obvious by talking up strategic subscription models. Most people will purchase a Durango in the retail store, and not be locked into some draconian over priced headache. Especially when Live costs $50 a year (with a price hike I bet).

Also, great work on the 22nm/20nm find. This should give both Sony and Microsoft leg room for performance. It seems like all the pieces are falling in place for a beast system.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

MS lost billions with the xbox 360? I think you need to re-do the math...they been in the green for quite some time now. I cannot comment on the PS3 as i do not know the figures so i keep my mouth shut if i have not done my homework before spewing out gibberish.

.

 

[Terbinator]

.

What?

 

[Ashes]

.

I can't ever get to see big pictures when they are quoted. :/
You click on it once and have to hold it. So how do I move around the chart?

 

[AuthenticM]

.

and this comes from where ?

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

and this comes from where ?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35972291&postcount=86

 

[KageMaru]

Jeff, the Xbox 720 can be a powerhouse and a cable device at the same time. Pachter is pointing out the obvious by talking up strategic subscription models. Most people will purchase a Durango in the retail store, and not be locked into some draconian over priced headache. Especially when Live costs $50 a year (with a price hike I bet).

Also, great work on the 22nm/20nm find. This should give both Sony and Microsoft leg room for performance. It seems like all the pieces are falling in place for a beast system.

Actually IIRC you saved $10-$20 with the current subscription plan, at least before the recent price drop. If MS can offer the 720 for $200 at launch under a similar subscription model, I can see that being attractive to a lot of people.

.

I wasn't including the losses of the original Xbox. Makes no sense to theorize the financial goals of a company by including losses that they do not care to make up. That was an eaten cost, so I don't understand why it's still brought up.

 

[AuthenticM]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35972291&postcount=86

and this comes from where ?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Jeff, the Xbox 720 can be a powerhouse and a cable device at the same time. Pachter is pointing out the obvious by talking up strategic subscription models. Most people will purchase a Durango in the retail store, and not be locked into some draconian over priced headache. Especially when Live costs $50 a year (with a price hike I bet).

Also, great work on the 22nm/20nm find. This should give both Sony and Microsoft leg room for performance. It seems like all the pieces are falling in place for a beast system.

It's not confirmed @ 20nm but it seems that 6 months makes a difference, is 20nm the target? All I'm pointing out is that it could be.

A Xbox 720 as cable box will likely be a inexpensive 1 custom APU/SoC if possible.

 

[CLEEK]

It doesn't matter that historically, MS hemorrhaged money with the original Xbox and during the first half of the 360. Businesses and share holders only really care about the last 12 months, and the next 12 months.

As a product, Xbox has been profitable for a few years, and more than that, its a successful new product that diversifies from their core, and potentially stagnating, OS and Office markets. In the US at least, the Xbox brand is highly regarded and a growth platform, so I'm sure MS are focusing heavily on it from a strategic point of view. The Xbox is no longer a niche little side project, but has fulfilled their original goal in bringing MS into the home away from the PC.

Whatever the spec difference between the next Xbox and PS, I'm sure the Xbox will be a far more unified, cohesive platform, with clear goals and directions from MS as to how they will market it and expand its userbase. All things that Sony have spectacularly failed to do this gen. The downside to this is from my perspective is that gaming will be low on MS's priorities, and will just be one of many functions the Xbox can perform. At least with Sony, you know that the console will have been built as a gaming device first and foremost.

 

[thuway]

It doesn't matter that historically, MS hemorrhaged money with the original Xbox and during the first half of the 360. Businesses and share holders only really care about the last 12 months, and the next 12 months.

As a product, Xbox has been profitable for a few years, and more than that, its a successful new product that diversifies from their core, and potentially stagnating, OS and Office markets. In the US at least, the Xbox brand is highly regarded and a growth platform, so I'm sure MS are focusing heavily on it from a strategic point of view. The Xbox is no longer a niche little side project, but has fulfilled their original goal in bringing MS into the home away from the PC.

Whatever the spec difference between the next Xbox and PS, I'm sure the Xbox will be a far more unified, cohesive platform, with clear goals and directions from MS as to how they will market it and expand its userbase. All things that Sony have spectacularly failed to do this gen. The downside to this is from my perspective is that gaming will be low on MS's priorities, and will just be one of many functions the Xbox can perform. At least with Sony, you know that the console will have been built as a gaming device first and foremost.

I honestly think MS will court third parties harder than ever in the coming E3. You can bet your bottom dollar every single third party game worth a damn will have "First DLC", "Exclusive content", and "Powered by Kinnect" stamped all over it. This will be the trojan horse. Money Hats will seal the deal.

Also, don't be surprised if the new Bungie IP, Call of Duty Next-Gen, Gears Next-Gen, Watch Dogs, and Star Wars 1313 end up becoming "timed exclusives".

 

[thuway]

It's not confirmed @ 20nm but it seems that 6 months makes a difference, is 20nm the target? All I'm pointing out is that it could be.

A Xbox 720 as cable box will likely be a inexpensive 1 custom APU/SoC if possible.

It sounds like 4 teraflops is not an impossibility after all in Early 2014.