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Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods
- Thread starter Sendou
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They're also a far cry from horse armour or wizard's tower. I'm hard pressed to think of a time when a company would give you the content of Dragonborn or Dawnguard for free either.
I missed this at first, but it's a statement a I have a few issues with (at the risk of going way off-topic) even though I'm not a huge fan of small DLC and I usually only buy the bigger pieces:
First, if we take a slightly simplistic, but also kind of objective view then that is absolutely not true. We as gamers are getting tenfold worth of manhours and work for our money and that's before adjusting for inflation. Games as a whole are increasingly more complex, more detailed, more comprehensive than they have been. If you take for example a single art asset, say a sword, then for that same price we are getting a sword that is easily tenfold of work and rendered in much higher detail.
Now it's a matter that in the end is widely subjective since the quality of the content can be subjective (taking that crude example of sword you can still say that the sword that is less detailed still looks better). That renders your concept factually untrue, as you can't determine if I for example feel like that 60$ product is much, much better than the 60¤ of the old, which is actually something I would agree in case of Skyrim (I personally much prefer Oblivion and Skyrim to Morrowind and Daggerfall, but of course that's just me). In the end they are still getting a whole working product that is at least comparable to the old products and when adjusting for inflation the base cost of a game is lower.
DLC prices however don't scale according to the base product, which has to do with the fact that it's attach rate isn't usually near the sales of the base product and that in a business sense it's devised to subsisidize some of the the increased costs to the enthusiasts gamers. In any case, DLC on it's own is another matter than once again isn't black or white and we've seen plenty of great and plenty of poor examples of DLC.
ashecitism
Member
Saw this on FP, but was posted on reddit yesterday. Got buried I guess.
Not that it would be feasible but they should had contacted some modders about this a long time ago to make new "premium" mods to showcase it vs just having old free mods go paid to demonstrate what good can come of this.
They kind of did that, but only with a very few modders and a very limited time. Some of the mods are pretty high quality and the fact it's the reason that development on SkyUI can continue speaks for the fact that this can have good results. I wholeheartedly agree with Robin's comments on the topic and I hope that this results in a positive change, but it also can go wrong for many reasons.
thanks for sharing robins reply, I hadn't seen that. I agree with you _machine. The goal here is a positive change, and if that doesn't come I fully expect Valve to revert this new system or at least work on it until it's a good thing for everyone.
not a long time ago. they had roughly a month, which is almost enough time to make a good armor set. Really epic, big stuff, or even really polished stuff, takes a lot longer.
not a long time ago. they had roughly a month, which is almost enough time to make a good armor set. Really epic, big stuff, or even really polished stuff, takes a lot longer.
So the argument is basically "it's not about the money, as long as the money comes from any other source than myself"
Also, if someone is posting a pic of someone hanging themselves over paying for content for a game..
Also it's funny that people are raging over popups but this guy wants mods to be ad supported? Like how does he think that's gonna work exactly?
aftercompletion
Banned
Absolutely awful take.
All this whole debacle has proven is that "the modding community," a term used very liberally by people who have never created any meaningful content themselves, doesn't deserve people like Durante independently creating content for them.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Remember when people cried about MW elite which just turned out to be a season pass and soon after much more companies adopted that system and almost no one complained when other people did it?
Also, that post just reflects what I think people are really upset about, which isn't the "death of the modding community" which isn't going to happen regardless of how they feel. They just think mods are supposed to be free and should always be free and never charge for a mod. Skyrim is NOT the first game to have paid mods, even ignoring the F2P games. You have had mods being repacked as full games for a long time now.
Now I am not saying there aren't legitimate concerns, I am just saying that a lot of people are likely motivated more about the fact that you have to pay than anything else. In the end, some people never want to see things change, for variety of reasons. Some good, some just selfish.
uncredited male
Member
The lure of financial compensation could produce some amazing mods with professional assets that wouldn't have been created otherwise. But I think Bethesda is going to need to do some gating to prevent issues like we have already seen.
This rollout needed more time in the oven.
This rollout needed more time in the oven.
ab.aeterno
Member
Anyone but Valve, huh?
How about we stop coming up with baseless conspiracy theories that a multi-billion dollar independent company was strong-armed into doing this and accept the fact that they can fuck up and make shitty decisions?
Like good god, is this here we're at now? Spinning up impossible what-if scenarios to explain how it couldn't possibly ever be Valve in any way at fault or fucking up? It's ridiculous.
ginger ninja
Banned
LTTP but Isn't the 75% cut up to the mooder, because if not than lolwut. If I was a mooder, might as well give the mod for free instead of taking the meager 25% and throwing 75% to valve/beth for basically doing nothing/hosting.
Up to the game developer although the max is probably 70% for the modder, since 30% is the standard valve cut for anything.
Apparently the way it'll work going forward is Valve takes 25-35% (I've heard 25%, 30%, and 35% all used, not sure which is actually accurate), then lets the games publisher decide how to split the rest with the mod developer.
not psycho
Member
There is another option: consider the price of must-have mods to be part of the price of the game, and decide if you want to buy the game accordingly. That may mean you have to wait for the game price to drop before buying it.
DSfix is an interesting example, because From probably made more money from it being free than they would have made if it was paid and they got a cut. With a free fix, there was nothing stopping people from buying Dark Souls at full price; all the reward for the fix goes to them. If the fix cost money I bet a lot of people (including myself) would have a WTF reaction to a broken game with a paid fix that partially goes to the company who left it broken. Therefore more people would have waited until a lower price, likely more than eliminating From's cut of the fix.
DSfix is also interesting in another way: it was broken by forced updates multiple times and temporarily taken down by a mistaken DMCA notice. That's for a mod which did nothing but fix the game and make From a lot of money.
And that's part of the reason we should all have major concerns about this. Being able to turn off forced updates is a bare minimum requirement for selling mods. How can you sell something that can be broken at any moment with no recourse?
And Valve has done nothing but wave away concerns over how this will affect free mods. No statement that companies won't be able to say "only paid mods allowed". No explanation of how they are going to deal with a deluge of questionably stolen or copied mods; how are they going to judge and enforce? By the time a system is in place to more easily shut down free mods (which is already possible by forcing updates to break them and sending DMCA notices, but now there is a potential profit motive to shut down free mods), it may be too late.
Very rarely, considering how popular it is and that this is the internet. I think I had to ban a grand total of 1 person from my blog comments for being insufferable. (compared to about 20000 spam accounts
) The only recurring somewhat annoying part is having people tell you that they "expected better of you" whenever they disagree with your position. That gets old quickly.Anyway, I think this thread has gone into great detail about all the ways in which paid mods can destroy modding, humanity, and perhaps the earth. But I don't think that the other side of the coin has been looked at enough. There is, of course, the financial support aspect and how it might allow people who would otherwise not be in the position to do so to dedicate more time to modding. This has been discussed, some dismissed it while others have given examples.
What hasn't been brought up (at least as far as I saw) is the validation getting some financial compensation can give modding (and modders) in the eye of the general public. Modders -- at least most of them I would assume -- have friends, familiy, significant others perhaps who by and large are very unlikely to be "core" gamers or familiar with the modding scene at all. With other gamers, being known for making mods is great. With normal people, they mostly just wonder why you spend hundreds (or maybe thousands!) of hours "playing around with the computer". Being able to show them that there actually are people - gamers - out there who appreciate what you are doing enough to reward it financially immediately makes modding more "real" and, yes, worthy in their eyes. You can discuss what that says about society in general, but the effect is undeniable. And I think this type acknowledgement can serve as a huge morale and motivation booster for modders.
(Oh, and since it has been a dozen pages or so I guess it's time to throw in another reminder that I'm not interested in selling my mods -- I already have a job, and I wouldn't want to deal with the pressure/expectations of providing "professional" support. But I also don't believe that others should be denied the option of doing so)
CybernatonEvolution
Member
If you are referring to the OP of the 2012 Steam topic, he clearly stated that ad revenue could be generated from download sites, download links and youtube videos, in which the author of the mod has a share of the ad revenue. He did not mention in-game mod advertisements or popups; you clearly misread his statement.
What he is trying to get to is that modders should get payed in a way other than selling their mods, because of the nature of mods as a product (compatibility issues, pricing and number of mods that can be bought).
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Again, I don't think the idea of (some) paid mods is necessarily a bad one - it is an extension of hats, so to Valve of course it seemed the next logical step.
However, the execution and sudden implementation has been so terrible that it has soured the whole initiative. It would have been much smoother has they tested this on a new title than trying to shoehorn it into a 4 year old game with such a vast web of already existing mod interdependencies that originated in a world state where money wasn't a factor.
That was what was shortsighted and caused this whole kerfluffle.
Which is besides the most notable specifics of the arguably terrible revenue split and the horrendous refund policy/nonexistent QA.
However, the execution and sudden implementation has been so terrible that it has soured the whole initiative. It would have been much smoother has they tested this on a new title than trying to shoehorn it into a 4 year old game with such a vast web of already existing mod interdependencies that originated in a world state where money wasn't a factor.
That was what was shortsighted and caused this whole kerfluffle.
Which is besides the most notable specifics of the arguably terrible revenue split and the horrendous refund policy/nonexistent QA.
CybernatonEvolution
Member
Bethesda should have made its own mod marketplace, where they extensively test mods and approve them. Paid mods, or premium mods would be, in my opinion, very polished large overhauls.
From what I noticed in F2P models and microtransactions in general is that people who care about the game buy "artistic" and aesthetics mods e.g skins, paints, retextures,..etc; users apparently value the artistic side of these mods, and they are easy to implement and have minor to no compatibility issues. We will see what kind of mods are the most popular (or profitable) Skyrim mods.
I have an idea actually. Developers can make a very dedicated and high quality modding tools, interface and market, and ask players for subscriptions. Mod authors get a percentage of that subscription revenue depending on how popular their mod is. Also, making modding competitions and giving away prizes/rewards could make a competitive and higher quality modding scene.
VitaminCaim
Neo Member
You guys are in harsh denial. Valve said "Ok" to the decision. They implemented it. Gabe defended it.
So much corporate cheerleading.
So much corporate cheerleading.
Glass Shark
Banned
Maybe it's just because I'm not a big user of mods, but I've read a bunch of stuff on GAF and reddit about this, and I'm still not sure exactly why I'm supposed to be pissed off.
me0wish
Member
Who ever is in favor of this thinking that something good is coming out of this is in denial, companies have exploited the DLC/season pass system for years, this won't be an exception.
If you want to make money out of your mods, go make your own game and get money for it, or make a really good mod that a company will take it and polish it to be sold as official DLC.
I already avoid games that have DLC until the inevitable GOTY edition is 80% off, by then, maybe the game is polished enough by modders to be "playable", now companies have even less reason to add features and polish their games, as they will be awarded by the money the modding community makes for them.
Resident Evil 5 doesn't have local coop? Sure, just pay 10$ for the hard work some modders put into the game to get it when it should of been there in the first place.
Skyrim has bugs and millions of issues caused by stupid AI? There is a mod to fix that for 5$!
It will be hilarious when so-called AAA titles have features purposely hidden in their games so modders can easily "unlock" them and be sold at the store, want "advanced pc graphical options" for Watch Dogs 2? That would be 15$, all free versions of this mod will be considered pirating and will get you banned from the workshop.
The day downloading/making mods will be considered pirating is near, and it will be everyone's fault as we are accepting companies shady practices.
If you want to make money out of your mods, go make your own game and get money for it, or make a really good mod that a company will take it and polish it to be sold as official DLC.
I already avoid games that have DLC until the inevitable GOTY edition is 80% off, by then, maybe the game is polished enough by modders to be "playable", now companies have even less reason to add features and polish their games, as they will be awarded by the money the modding community makes for them.
Resident Evil 5 doesn't have local coop? Sure, just pay 10$ for the hard work some modders put into the game to get it when it should of been there in the first place.
Skyrim has bugs and millions of issues caused by stupid AI? There is a mod to fix that for 5$!
It will be hilarious when so-called AAA titles have features purposely hidden in their games so modders can easily "unlock" them and be sold at the store, want "advanced pc graphical options" for Watch Dogs 2? That would be 15$, all free versions of this mod will be considered pirating and will get you banned from the workshop.
The day downloading/making mods will be considered pirating is near, and it will be everyone's fault as we are accepting companies shady practices.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I dunno if you're just joining the conversation, but I've been shitting on valve throughout the thread. At this point I'm done shitting on them, so I'm in the phase of 'How did things go down'. Who approached who? Was it Bethesda, who's nearing their conference with a *possible* announcement of the sequels to 2 of the biggest RPG franchises from last gen? Or Valve, looking to make even more money?
Logically, who would be the one to approach the other? Yeah, I can keep shitting on valve, but that's no fun. They've been shit on enough by me and others.
NotoriousPUG
Member
As soon as other games integrate into this system it will be up to the modder. The games offering the best rates will probably attract the best modders.
Just going to apply some rational thought and play devil's advocate here.
Easier said then done.
Both of those options have a massive barrier to entry, with the latter being a complete shot in the dark. Setting up a mesh and texture for a new sword is a great way to get your feet wet in the industry. Step up to larger mods and full games from there. If you make 10 cents per on 100,000 or 200,000 sales as you get your feet wet, more power to you.
I generally don't purchase DLC at all as it tends to be objectively worse than the main game. This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
Resident Evil 5 already doesn't have co-op. This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
Skyrim already has bugs and issues with AI. In fact, I found vanilla Skyrim to be filled with bugs, poor design, and a mediocre game overall. This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
Ironic that you cite Watch Dogs as this is exactly what happened. The only difference is, modders now have more motivation to improve their work if the game supports paid mods. Not to mention that publishers are more likely to give modders the tools to fix these broken games.
This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
The wider demographic has been accepting AAA trash for nearly a decade now. I don't understand why this is bringing the roof down.
Easier said then done.
Both of those options have a massive barrier to entry, with the latter being a complete shot in the dark. Setting up a mesh and texture for a new sword is a great way to get your feet wet in the industry. Step up to larger mods and full games from there. If you make 10 cents per on 100,000 or 200,000 sales as you get your feet wet, more power to you.
I generally don't purchase DLC at all as it tends to be objectively worse than the main game. This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
Resident Evil 5 already doesn't have co-op. This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
Skyrim already has bugs and issues with AI. In fact, I found vanilla Skyrim to be filled with bugs, poor design, and a mediocre game overall. This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
Ironic that you cite Watch Dogs as this is exactly what happened. The only difference is, modders now have more motivation to improve their work if the game supports paid mods. Not to mention that publishers are more likely to give modders the tools to fix these broken games.
This exact same argument could be applied to essentially any modern game, not mutually exclusive to those with paid mods.
The wider demographic has been accepting AAA trash for nearly a decade now. I don't understand why this is bringing the roof down.
crazyrabbits
Banned
Not anymore. It's easier than ever to publish a game, ironically through Steam. Anyone with $100, a little bit of marketing knowledge (and bundle sites) and bit of coding expertise can make a game nowadays. The indie market has exploded.
You are completely correct. However, the argument was that a complete game would be a higher barrier to entry than a singular texture mod. Do you concede that point?
Someone completely new to the industry would find themselves much better served introducing themselves to blender and or a small script for a mod, then getting over their head on a full game.
crazyrabbits
Banned
Considering the influx of game creation tools like Game Factory, Game Maker that really don't require much (if any) coding knowledge in the first place, I'd say they're almost on equal footing. Then again, it all depends on the framework of the game I'd be modding.
That someone is actually Danny DeVito in hilarious comedy series [redacted]
Please spend 5.99 Space Dollars for complete answer.
I kid. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
Edit: Grief.exe, I think that poster above was talking about the co-op hack/mod for RE5 that re-enables the split screen mode on PC.
Edit #2: Some more actual points regarding the topic: If this makes pubs more open to supplying mod tools so some games might not need to stay broken forever or get these amazing fan made overhauls, I feel that's worth spending money on. If you don't like that Elder Scrolls VI is all level scaling bullshittery, wait for a sale and a mod to pop out. Like, a 20 dollar sale and a 5-10 dollar mod that makes the game play as you'd wish. That's a whooping 30 dollars spent. Big deal.
It might also have the effect of showing publishers just what PC gamers want out of ports just by analyzing mod sales. I mean they're corporations, they look at the money, not the amount of downloads on the Nexus.
I'm referring to the same.
I disagree, but we can just leave it at that.
Zombie James
Banned
So Valve set the 25/75% cut and not Bethesda?
Confidence Man
Member
That is a pretty big deal.
Game comes out and the inventory sucks, the hud sucks, level scaling sucks, textures suck, features are missing, etc... and the only options now are paid-for mods? Because let's be real here, now that the motivation is no longer to improve the experience but rather how much money can be made this stuff isn't going to be free. People will be tripping over themselves to get a piece of the pie.
Valve decided they would take 25% (or 30%, I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere), then told Bethesda they could decide the split between them and the mod creator. Bethesda then decided to give the content creator 25% and keep the rest for themselves.
LurkerPrime
Member
It just hit me that Bethesda (and moreso Valve) have found a way to make horse armor-style DLC palatable, oddly by getting their own customers to make it. By giving up a bit of profit per sale, they can turn a no-effort product into full-profit merchandise, all while entirely avoiding bad PR from people complaining about the poor value-to-content ratio inherent to modern DLC. And they'll even get praised for farming out their profit-maker, giving money to those poor modders.
This is the sort of sublime insidiousness that other companies cannot even dream of.
This is the sort of sublime insidiousness that other companies cannot even dream of.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Hopefully those people have the insight to feel embarrassed later.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Only one is really bad. The others are pretty funny.
Compsiox
Banned
johntown
Banned
This is mod that I 100% support being paid!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=431136974&searchtext=
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=431136974&searchtext=
Link doesn't work, removed?
johntown
Banned
Yeah it was removed pretty quick. It was someone who said the mod was absolutely nothing but a blank esp. Said it does nothing and is nothing.
I thought it was amusing.
Not to nitpick, but the OP's fear was that Valve would assume ownership of Workshop content and begin charging for it, which isn't what happened.
What if you build a mod that goes up for sale and then you release an updated version that is complete shit? What if you include a rootkit in your mod's update?
How would people be protected against stuff like that?
Workshop doesn't really support files that could work as rootkit. The updating is a problem though and one of the reasons why I much prefer Nexus.
Bu... bu... bu... I thought Valve had already been determined to be evil?
But seriously, I can't wait for whatever the next internet shitstorm is going to be so that people can forget about this long enough for us to collectively realize that it really is going to be a better deal for both consumers and developers.
That is a very interesting response. Thanks for posting it here
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