-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods
- Thread starter Sendou
- Start date
- Status
dave is ok
aztek is ok
The "modding community" seems to be made of about 2% actual modders and 98% people who like free stuff.
This debacle is so weird because the people who claim to be on the side of the modders are also staunchly defending their right to never give them a penny.
It's pretty much exactly the same as everything from games in the store to early access - that creator/modders reputation goes to shit.
Everything in Early access and in the Store has the same issues particularly with new developers, and it is only with the help of the early adopters, bloggers and youtubers reviewing this stuff, that they get slammed as they should.
The best approach is to never be an early adopter and to see how well supported something is over time, to determine how trust worthy these things are
ashecitism
Member
Saw FMPONE (prominent CS mapper) RT this: https://twitter.com/radiatoryang/status/592346574681866241
Hah, I have to admit that there have been some amusive aspects to the protests as well.
Some have missed it though, but it's fair to remind that these mods do not actually go on sale and the mods do have to approved first. So far these are the only mods actually that have gone on sale: http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/...eitems&admin_view=1&requiredflags[]=paiditems
All the trolling and exploited content is under review and users are free to let Valve know of any content that violates the rules. That said, I'm unsure if Valve actually has the resources to be thorough enough if this gathers more momentum.
EDIT:
Once again I can't help but to agree with the modder in question, like so many modders that have commented on the topic.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Not sure if this is genuine but i wouldnt be surprised either way. Getting a refund of store credit locks you out of the Workshop for a week?
Also it seems that Skyrims user ratings have gone to complete shit. Went from a 98% rating to mid-80s over the weekend.
Also it seems that Skyrims user ratings have gone to complete shit. Went from a 98% rating to mid-80s over the weekend.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
There is no community. There are people who enjoy making mods and having others enjoy their work, and the people who like to customize their game with the various mods.
It's a market even less so than a community. The whole thing is a joke. If Valve thinks this makes sense, PC gaming should start moving away from Steam.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Went to the store page and yeesh.
What a mess.
Also I'm guessing that any positive reviews are going to get down-voted like crazy until they're buried.
EDIT: Has Bethesda had anything to say on this issue?
Ehh..well.
Probably not a good idea to say anything at all at this point.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I agree with some points that he made, but I'm wondering how you can verify popularity and capability if the mod hasn't been out free already. His system would ensure you really couldn't make a new mod and expect to be able to charge for it right away. His suggestion would also bring a certain elitism to the community, only the perceived "best" and popular modders would be making money.
The Cowboy
Member
I have some spare credit, I'm going to test this.
Not sure if this is genuine but i wouldnt be surprised either way. Getting a refund of store credit locks you out of the Workshop for a week?
Also it seems that Skyrims user ratings have gone to complete shit. Went from a 98% rating to mid-80s over the weekend.
There is a post on reddit from a valve employee explaining this - apparently this is meant to only be in place if a purchase was made by credit card, and is meant to be a measure to prevent people with stolen credit cards buying stuff and then getting wallet money via refund - it isn't actually meant to work wallet funds that you use, so is apparently an "oversight that will be fixed"
Not sure if this is genuine but i wouldnt be surprised either way. Getting a refund of store credit locks you out of the Workshop for a week?
That's messed up if it's true.
The Cowboy
Member
Not sure if this is genuine but i wouldnt be surprised either way. Getting a refund of store credit locks you out of the Workshop for a week?
Also it seems that Skyrims user ratings have gone to complete shit. Went from a 98% rating to mid-80s over the weekend.
Right, just did 6 different purchases and refunded them all, all Steam money was taken instantly BUT rather annoyingly all Steam money was not returned instantly and it states it can take a couple of day to get it back.
After 6 refunds i still have access to workshop/market, i would do a few more purchase to see how many triggers a ban (if one is real), but i can't do any more until i get my funds back.
Edit.
My test was irrelevant, when you buy a mod via Steam wallet funds it isn't meant to trigger a ban when you request a refund. HOWEVER, if you buy any mod using a different payment method (say a debit card or PayPal etc) and you request a refund - it does indeed issue you a 7 day ban whilst it waits to confirm the initial fund are legit before it goes into your wallet.
Basically buy a mod using a debit/credit card/paypal etc, don't like the mod and as such request the refund = 7 day ban from the market. In light of this, be sure when/if you buy any mods that you use Steam Waller funds to pay for them, because if you don't and want a refund on a mod you can't buy any more paid mods for a week.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
The lockout always happens when you add a new payment method to Steam. I'm guessing someone added a new payment method, bought a mod, refunded it - and assumed it was the refund causing the lockout but it was the payment method in the first place.
EDIT:
lukeskymac
Member
How is making something nice once in their entire history exactly argument-breaking?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Valve is always trying to find ways to monetize Steam, it is highly likely they approached Bethesda. These are all presumptions though.
If Bethesda wasn't lazy they could have made the system themselves and pocketed 75%+ of the profits. They are a big enough company to fund the infrastructure, make the interface and store, and patch in a login to Skyrim's client. The initial work may have cost some money upfront, but the system would have been there at the start of Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls 6.
It's really hard to navigate 71 pages on mobile.
Were Brodual's videos on this posted here yet? They're a channel who posts brief, but really well detailed and edited spotlights of Skyrim mods (so well edited they're often superior to the mods they're spotlighting, I'd say). I think their thoughts and summary of the situation valuable.
Here's their first video on this from a few days ago, is outdated and was probably already posted.
Anyone trying to catch up with this whole deal might find these useful.
Were Brodual's videos on this posted here yet? They're a channel who posts brief, but really well detailed and edited spotlights of Skyrim mods (so well edited they're often superior to the mods they're spotlighting, I'd say). I think their thoughts and summary of the situation valuable.
Here's their first video on this from a few days ago, is outdated and was probably already posted.
Anyone trying to catch up with this whole deal might find these useful.
The initial poster linked this image and then cherry picked horse armor DLC, while completely ignoring Shivering Isles. Oblivion's release would take from both the 2006 and 2011 portion on the image, and wasn't accurately represented.
ashecitism
Member
Just a correction there, he isn't remaking Mirage 2 anymore. He handed it over to the creator of Ali and Zoo, because Vice (Miami) is getting an original layout.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The initial poster linked this image and then cherry picked horse armor DLC, while completely ignoring Shivering Isles. Oblivion's release would take from both the 2006 and 2011 portion on the image, and wasn't accurately represented.
That picture also misses the fact that the "free" portions were not really ever free to begin with. They were paid for by the hard work of modders. Plus it supposes the content was cut from the original game, also something clearly false.
not psycho
Member
So am I, especially this part:
But perhaps the difference is that I have no faith in Valve to address the problems adequately.
It should be clear to everyone that, on a technical level, it is ridiculous to sell mods while forcing updates (to both the game and, presumably, the mod). I already considered Steam to be one of the most intrusive DRM schemes ever created for this reason, but it is completely unworkable when you add in mods. Things can be breaking all over the place with no recourse (except a 1 day refund window that is long gone when everything breaks).
Valve has also not explained how they will deal with copyright concerns, or devs asking for a "paid mod only" rule. How will they judge copyright concerns and how will they enforce them? Will some devs (with a new financial incentive) try to stifle non-Steam mods?
So why exactly are we supposed to gladly accept Valve being the one to do this, when not only are they completely technically unprepared for it, but their history gives no indication they will ever do it right? I also agree with him that the cut is too small for the modder, but the technical/copyright concerns are more primary than that; the system should never have been rolled out until they were resolved.
As someone who's been doing nothign but Cities Skylines since it came out, modding is definitely a community. There's a constant conversation going on where people discuss the game and what things would be interesting to implement. People jump on certain ideas and implement them and the conversation starts over again. No, not everyone is a modder, but many modders just take ideas other people throw out there and make it. Since they are part of the community a lot of them take feedback seriously when making updates to their mods as well. There's also people who take and remix other people's mods or decide to learn to mod as a result of this whole conversation.
Yeah there's tons of people who just show up, download, and disappear, but there's absolutely a community there.
PedroLumpy
Member
Seriously. It hasn't been too bad here, but elsewhere there's been a ton of people who want to decide for modders what they should be happy with.
I've enjoyed the free ride for a long time, but I look forward to these people getting compensated for amazing work.
I never actually used DSfix, but I should PM Durante a thank you or something in case he's been receiving any flak lately.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
The lockout always happens when you add a new payment method to Steam. I'm guessing someone added a new payment method, bought a mod, refunded it - and assumed it was the refund causing the lockout but it was the payment method in the first place.
EDIT:
There we go. Makes total sense that way. Looks like Valve is going to address it and the issue The Cowboy came across.
The Cowboy
Member
They're only addressing the issue with the ban when you pay via Steam wallet funds, if you pay via other means (debit card/credit card etc) regardless of it being an already linked payment method, you do a refund and you get a 7 day ban from the market.
The only way to not get a 7 day ban if you request a refund on a mod is if you pay for a mod via Steam wallet funds, so if you plan to buy mods and think there might be a chance you will want a refund on them then be sure to pay for them via Steam wallet funds and nothing else.
I'm banned from the market now after testing it after the Steam wallet payments, i did a mod purchase on my linked debit card and got a 7 ban after i refunded it.
Its all in here.
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1047-edfm-2932
People tinkering around with commercial software for shits and giggles, knowledge, curiosity, or just plain boredom, and sharing their knowledge, findings, and creations with one another, has been a staple of personal computing since its very founding.
It's never been about money until now. That's the problem. Consumers frowned upon people trying to make a buck off of these things, and corporations frowned upon their intellectual property being used for monetary gain outside of their consent and their sphere of control.
It's not that some mods don't deserve money - it's that there's a billion other ways to make money, and very few environments where people can just tinker around without concern for monetary exploitation or benefit. Why change that? Why bring the app store model to mods after 30+ years of money not being a factor?
What's wrong with just finding good modders and mod teams and contracting them for official DLC? Or making well-received mods into their own corporate IPs/brands?
Why ruin something special? :/
I like having content created for the community out of a desire to create content. No money, no fame, just curiosity and self-fulfillment. No barriers to entry
It's never been about money until now. That's the problem. Consumers frowned upon people trying to make a buck off of these things, and corporations frowned upon their intellectual property being used for monetary gain outside of their consent and their sphere of control.
It's not that some mods don't deserve money - it's that there's a billion other ways to make money, and very few environments where people can just tinker around without concern for monetary exploitation or benefit. Why change that? Why bring the app store model to mods after 30+ years of money not being a factor?
What's wrong with just finding good modders and mod teams and contracting them for official DLC? Or making well-received mods into their own corporate IPs/brands?
Why ruin something special? :/
I like having content created for the community out of a desire to create content. No money, no fame, just curiosity and self-fulfillment. No barriers to entry
If the only reason some people didn't charge for the work was due to the license prohibiting selling anything, I'm not so sure it was the "community" that was keeping them from charging, and many mod communities have members that have directly made money off their ability to tinker and mod the original games and they still enjoy tinkering (look at the Sonic hacking community, where Sega hired people from it to remake Sonic 1 and 2)
You're also ignoring that there are plenty of communities where there is a paid mod economy, like flight simulators.
Plus, as pointed out in this thread multiple times, there have already been mods made and sold for PC games.
You still have the option of choosing to release your work for free. That's not going away. That community is not going away. People are just pissed that some content they're not entitled to might cost money to use now. The simple solution is to simply not buy it, because you're not entitled to other person's work for free that they feel like charging for.
Even the guy that got hired at Bungie for his Skyrim modding said he was doing it to get money working at a full job.
There are only so many jobs companies have. They cannot hire every modder that wants a job simply because there are just not an infinite supply of gaming jobs. This weirdness where "it's not about money" but people are taking donations or running ads or the bullshit of "think of it as an unpaid internship" means people know it's work. There's more to game development than working just for big aaa companies. Not all companies start as an office building. Not all people that work in the video game industry should have to work for someone else directly. Give developers more choice in how they work and you'll get more choice in content.
You're also ignoring that there are plenty of communities where there is a paid mod economy, like flight simulators.
Plus, as pointed out in this thread multiple times, there have already been mods made and sold for PC games.
You still have the option of choosing to release your work for free. That's not going away. That community is not going away. People are just pissed that some content they're not entitled to might cost money to use now. The simple solution is to simply not buy it, because you're not entitled to other person's work for free that they feel like charging for.
Even the guy that got hired at Bungie for his Skyrim modding said he was doing it to get money working at a full job.
There are only so many jobs companies have. They cannot hire every modder that wants a job simply because there are just not an infinite supply of gaming jobs. This weirdness where "it's not about money" but people are taking donations or running ads or the bullshit of "think of it as an unpaid internship" means people know it's work. There's more to game development than working just for big aaa companies. Not all companies start as an office building. Not all people that work in the video game industry should have to work for someone else directly. Give developers more choice in how they work and you'll get more choice in content.
why shouldn't they be able to make money off of this? It's not changing anything, those that want to create content purely out of the desire to create content can still do that. That has not changed. Why assume that all of a sudden everyone that was doing it before will disappear or turn into a money grubbing business man simply because this option is now available ?
Mods didn't go commercial for fear of being C&D'ed into the ground not because they just wanted to do stuff for free. Now people can do original stuff as paid content if they want, do it for free if they want and tinker around in other people's IP playground for free if they want.
It's another option for modders.
von Stroheim
Member
What is now an option will become mandatory when Fallout 4 comes out. And another modding community is ruined. Bethesda using the EA playbook and we are all poorer for it.
PS: Von Stroheim directed a classic silent movie called "Greed." He was against it. I'll just leave this here:
PS: Von Stroheim directed a classic silent movie called "Greed." He was against it. I'll just leave this here:
What is now an option will become mandatory when Fallout 4 comes out. And another modding community is ruined. Bethesda using the EA playbook and we are all poorer for it.
PS: Von Stroheim directed a classic silent movie called "Greed." He was against it. I'll just leave this here:
Care to explain how they will release tools to let you change game files that restrict you to only making paid mods?
von Stroheim
Member
You'll pay for the tools next time. And the EULA will say you can only sell them on steam. Can't you see where this is going?
What is now an option will become mandatory when Fallout 4 comes out. And another modding community is ruined. Bethesda using the EA playbook and we are all poorer for it.
PS: Von Stroheim directed a classic silent movie called "Greed." He was against it. I'll just leave this here:
both valve and bethesda have been vocal about the fact that the option to remain free is important
I don't think either are stupid enough to remove that. If someone wants to give their work away, they are not going to stop them. It doesn't even make sense. Their own content, sure. User created content? Up to the user.
but feel free to keep doomsaying
only if they don't want anyone using those tools..
A. The EULA already restricts making and using mods but it doesn't matter because it's not enforcable
B. If they charge for the mod tools, they will be pirated to hell and back for free mods. They can charge for people making paid mods but those people are making paid mods.
von Stroheim
Member
Wait and see, people.
Retreat!
Skyrim has Steam DRM and you can still pirate it
And your argument is? That because piracy is still an option, it's all going to be okay?
Yes, modding is illegal under the current EULA's so if Bethesda makes a move to prevent people from making free mods a workaround will be found even if it involves ripping the entire game out of the Steam ecosystem and applying mods to those files. As long as you own the game that's perfectly ethically sound.
But it's in their interest to make modding convenient and appealing.
von Stroheim
Member
Well, no, I'm fighting it by making my lonely voice heard.
von Stroheim
Member
All of a sudden, being part of a modding community and doing it for the love of the game is not enough. Divide and conquer really works! SMH.
Did you consider that it was maybe never enough but there was no reasonable way to monetize without getting C&D'ed before?
Some people like to get compensated for the work they do. A lot of modders always wanted to parlay modding into a paying gig and did it to hone their craft so they could get a studio job where they would be paid.
von Stroheim
Member
Indeed, I too wish to be paid 25% of the value of my work! HA!
We are not going to agree or change each others mind. Let's revisit when Fallout 4 comes out.
Project managers can work on projects worth millions of dollars and make a few hundred thousand a year. A programmer at Rockstar makes maybe a hundred grand a year? The list goes on and on.
Lots and lots of people make less than their work is "worth."
Well on the other side of the coin, the modification is useless outside the context of the game - ie the work of the people that developed a game.
Each game becomes a platform of it's own for more content to be built off - similarly modders creating something that others then use to create from, should be rewarded too for their initial work - under your pretence, even if the original modder is paid, the one that builds on top of that should be able to do so at no cost because it is "my work" even though that work is useless with out the original mod it is based off and the game that is being built on and the combined work in there.
this is something people either seem eager to dismiss or don't even take the time to consider in the first place.
one of the best parts about the workshop is that you are directly succeeding or failing based on your work. Even if it's "only 25%", there's a pretty direct correlation of what you do to what you get as a return. Unless you run your own business you probably aren't going to get this. As Aselith points out, even in best case scenarios (let's say call of duty or guitar hero), you might make something that brings in billions, and even a significant bonus might only net you 100-200k. Seems a lot lower % wise, unless you are the CEO or an exec.
edit: here's an update from Valve http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked