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Sonic Mania (8-15-2017, SEGA/Taxman/Headcannon/PagodaWest, PS4/XB1/PC/NX)

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Azure J

Member
Hey GAF!

Been waiting so long to finally show you guys this game. Reading all the posts here has been amazing - thank you so much for the support. Seriously. :)

We've been planning this for some time, and the entire team behind the project are all extremely talented. As we go forward, we plan to tour the game around even more so that more people can get some time to play it and really experience how good it is. (Up next is Summer of Sonic in the UK.)

So excited to show you guys what comes next for this one!

Any chance for short intro-outro animations a la Sonic CD?
 

TrueBlue

Member
Normally you could maybe dismiss it, but there are pretty clearly colors there for Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. The teal could be a thing to discuss, actually.

That's what I was thinking. But I can't think of any teal characters.

Hell, I even double-checked to see if Classic Amy wore teal - she doesn't, and would almost certainly be represented through pink in any case.

Interesting detail if nothing else.
 

jax

Banned
Hey GAF!

Been waiting so long to finally show you guys this game. Reading all the posts here has been amazing - thank you so much for the support. Seriously. :)

We've been planning this for some time, and the entire team behind the project are all extremely talented. As we go forward, we plan to tour the game around even more so that more people can get some time to play it and really experience how good it is. (Up next is Summer of Sonic in the UK.)

So excited to show you guys what comes next for this one!
Hey RubyEclipse! Thanks for the amazing party! I drank too much and LOVED Mania. Best night ever! Also,
nice secret messages on the handout. Yeah I saw those. Now all I need is maple syrup.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Izuka and one of the art directors from Sonic CD & Knuckles Chaotix is on board & overseeing production on the game. They are even helping Taxman & Company with the original zones appearing in Mania!

Okay, that's great, thanks! I was worried it would be a case of Sega basically turning a fangame into an official release (like Capcom did with Street Fighter X Mega Man) but if people from Sonic Team are helping with things beside production, this is great news to my ears.

Eh, with the way Sonic team changes staff and the inconsistent quality of their games (apart from being consistently bad-mediocre) I'm not sure what them being attached adds. I've been wishing for someone else to make a Sonic game for a long time because Sonic Team keeps pushing for changes that I feel make the games worse.

The person most responsible as far as I'm concerned for the success of Sonic was Hirokazu Yasuhara, who was the main game planner and level designer for the Genesis games as well as director. His amazing knack for game design is what made Sonic great, and his departure coincided with Sonic's fall in quality. Level and general game design got way worse and the series lost focus.

Takashi Iizuka started working on Sonic games with Sonic 3. He took control of the series following that, becoming director of Sonic Adventure. I consider him responsible for a lot of the bad decisions made with the series. For example, in an interview about Sonic 4, he said this:

"As you know, Homing Attack was an action featured from ‘Sonic Adventure’ and it didn’t appear in the classic series. In Sonic 4 the Homing Attack is added, and this provides sense of speed that none of the classic series have."

Everything that Sonic Team has been involved with time and time again has taught me they don't get classic Sonic. I'm just happy they finally hired a team that does get classic Sonic. I just hope they don't try to force homing attack and boost stuff into Sonic Mania.

I actually don't mind this one too much, if only for playing like a ghetto Panzer Dragoon game (Wasn't there a scrapped dragon boss for this bit? A PD tribute might have actually been the intent of Sky Chase), which is far more inoffensive than practically every other Sky Chase variant in the series.

The problems with Sonic Adventure's Sky Chase is it has no challenge whatsoever, it's too long, and they make you do essentially the same level twice. Well, 4 times since you have to do them in Tails' story, too.

I think it would work as a bonus stage where you have to collect rings, though.

Oh yeah, these too! They added such a nice bit to the progression of the game.
What surprised me was the artwork for the map in Lego Dimensions:
yMzRR8t.jpg


It's basically Angel Island, but it has Green Hill Zone, Aquatic Ruin Zone, Chemical Plant Zone, Sandopolis Zone, Ice Cap Zone, Lava Reef Zone or Red Mountain, and Carnival Night Zone.

When I first saw it I was shocked because I had an idea for something pretty much just like this for a way to make 3D Sonic work. Basically every Zone would have an open world adventure platforming act and a linear platforming act. the linear acts would connect the open world acts and gradually transition between the two. I had the idea of starting out in a Green Hill type open world act, opening the path to the linear act, and then the linear act would involve a river being polluted by chemicals from a chemical plant, which would be the next open world act.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
For folks who are curious what this game looks like at "native resolution", which appears to be 424x240, I used some screenshots that were released to approximate it.

XxDOf0s.png

BOrILtU.png

Studiopolis Zone is probably the most aesthetically pleasing stage I've ever seen in a Sonic game, god damn. Mania is too beautiful.
 

Raitaro

Member
mania.png


Saw this being discussed on Sonic Retro, but does anyone think the teal represents something? If I remember the classics correctly, they liked to use colours to reference playable characters and whatnot.

It's probably nothing, but it's fun to speculate.

Now that you bring it up, I'd actually be interested to see them follow the trend set by Sonic 2 and 3 (and CD if you count Amy) to introduce a new mainstay character that people can actually get behind and enjoy playing as. If Sonic Mania is Sonic 4/5 in all but name, why not introduce a new character that would fully fit within the old Genesis games as well? Perhaps a Teal character that excels in water or something? (Sonic Rush's Blaze the Cat would also be an acceptable fourth character for me by the way. I've always thought her design was great.)

And yes, I get that there are plenty of people who'd argue that Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are all that we need, which might be true, but at the same time I'd say that those characters were also new at some point before they managed to grow on people, and that the fourth character would not have to take centre stage to present us with something new that would help define the Mania experience. Just my five cents.

As a final side note, can I just say how refreshing it is to actually be looking forward to a new Sonic game and be clamouring for any new tidbit of info while at the same time wanting to dive back into the old games as a result as well? It's been many years since I've felt that this strongly. Thanks RubyEclipse (and the rest of the team)!
 

Rlan

Member
Just remembered where the damn sound from going into the hornet car is from - it's the teleport sound from Sonic Spinball!

https://youtu.be/DzPpRPDRQvA?t=97

Also keen to see what they do for a Super Sonic thing in this. Will Super Sonic finally have a full sprite set? Will Super Sonic finally be able to look up and keep his quills? Will Tails go with his Sonic 3 & 2 styled sprite? Will Knuckles get an entirely new sprite that's more fitting to the 1-CD-2 style?

Thing missing at the moment for me was actual new art of Sonic & Co in the announcement video. It was still the same art of Sonic, Tails & Knuckles from Sonic 3&K.
 

Sciz

Member
and I loved the zone transitions.

You know, I completely forgot about them in all the excitement, but they're absolutely mandatory. Such a little detail in the grand scheme of things, but it makes such a big difference to have the entire game presented as a cohesive whole.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Hey GAF!

Been waiting so long to finally show you guys this game. Reading all the posts here has been amazing - thank you so much for the support. Seriously. :)

We've been planning this for some time, and the entire team behind the project are all extremely talented. As we go forward, we plan to tour the game around even more so that more people can get some time to play it and really experience how good it is. (Up next is Summer of Sonic in the UK.)

So excited to show you guys what comes next for this one!

Would you please give me the opportunity to pay 70€ for a (if necessary limited) retail release :)?

EDIT: And as an overall comment: The return of 3D boost Sonic and Mega Drive Sonic is the best possible way to continue the Sonic franchise. A bit sad to not see Sonic Mania on a Nintendo system, because that's where most platformers release, but Xbox One is of course perfectly fine as well.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Do we know this for sure ? I don't think so.

Well, technically we don't but the trailer heavily implies it, both, with the combination of modern and classic Sonic, as well as the speedy sequences that look like the boost in Generations. I'm am quite certain Sega is aware that this amount of teasing the return of the best gameplay style would not be a wise idea if they wanted to experiement with something different. The neglection of Lost World in the show and the (absolutely correct) claim that Sonic Generations was "one of his best games to date", and "a highlight in Sonic's history", right after underlining that Colourswas an evolution of Unleashed that finally helped Sonic in 3D find its footing further point towards marketing wanting to push the boost angle. Considering I also enjoyed Lost World greatly, I could definitely live with a different direction, but it would be an enormous surprise after this presentation.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I'm hoping for the return of Sonic 3 style cutscenes to tie the world together.
I'd love these... but the existence of the "classic" levels makes me wonder if this won't feel like a disjoined series of independent levels.

But what the hey, if it has transitions between classic and new all the same, I'd be fine with it.
 
Whoa, someone likes that genesis high def look in the intro, I like. The Genesis look is so articulate and well defined.

Something that defines the early Sonic games were the surrealism and almost cubist design elements that pervade Sonic 1 and especially Sonic CD.

Spring Yard Zone's background is zen

sparkling___spring_yard_zone_by_chitonid.jpg

These are my thoughts exactly! Sonic 1 and CD had this really cool vibe, and I'm so glad to see it recaptured in Sonic Mania.
 

Teppic

Member
Classic Sonic for me kind of lives or dies with its music. If they can match the greatness of Sonic 1/2/3 & Knuckles and have some decent level design I'm getting it. If I don't like the music no amount of level design is going to get me to play it.
 

Ash735

Member
Classic Sonic for me kind of lives or dies with its music. If they can match the greatness of Sonic 1/2/3 & Knuckles and have some decent level design I'm getting it. If I don't like the music no amount of level design is going to get me to play it.
The music is being done by Tee Lopes, and the style they are aiming for is Sonic CD mixed with a bit of Sonic 3D and Knuckles Chaotix, you can hear a few of the released tracks below:
Main Theme
Studiopolis Zone
Invincibility
 
Hey GAF!

Been waiting so long to finally show you guys this game. Reading all the posts here has been amazing - thank you so much for the support. Seriously. :)

We've been planning this for some time, and the entire team behind the project are all extremely talented. As we go forward, we plan to tour the game around even more so that more people can get some time to play it and really experience how good it is. (Up next is Summer of Sonic in the UK.)

So excited to show you guys what comes next for this one!

I love you. Seriously.

If possible, please consider bringing some demo stations to the brazilian equivalent of Comic Con or BGS. I wish I had connections in this world to help you with that :(
 

Raitaro

Member
Quick question for those of you with more understanding of drawing techniques: is it me or are the tall narrow towers in Studiopolis drawn in the wrong perspective? I can't find a clear screenshot that shows them (and videos do a better job anyway) but you can see one of them here on the left:

J0ZQx37.jpg


They stand out to me because they seem to be following their own horizon lines while everything else faces the screen (if that makes sense, sorry I don't know how to explain it better in English).

It might be a nitpick, if true, but seeing as Sonic games are known for their fantastic backgrounds and considering Taxman and his team seem to be trying to honor that legacy, I feel I needed to bring it up (just in case I'm right and things can be changed still, in which case it might help if RubyEclipse is still here.)
 

Piers

Member
Quick question for those of you with more understanding of drawing techniques: is it me or are the tall narrow towers in Studiopolis drawn in the wrong perspective? I can't find a clear screenshot that shows them (and videos do a better job anyway) but you can see one of them here on the left:

J0ZQx37.jpg


They stand out to me because they seem to be following their own horizon lines while everything else faces the screen (if that makes sense, sorry I don't know how to explain it better in English).

It might be a nitpick, if true, but seeing as Sonic games are known for their fantastic backgrounds and considering Taxman and his team seem to be trying to honor that legacy, I feel I needed to bring it up (just in case I'm right and things can be changed still, if Ruby is stil here.)

It's a deliberate design choice to fit in with the semi-surreal, pop art graphics of the game. Although I do agree that it does stick out more than I'd want it to.
 

Raitaro

Member
It's a deliberate design choice to fit in with the semi-surreal, pop art graphics of the game. Although I do agree that it does stick out more than I'd want it to.

I see. Where did you get this info from if I may ask? I'm not doubting you but can't remember hearing anyone comment on this.

Personally I feel that while things like the checkered floors in Greenhill Zone for example do enhance the feeling of surrealism (while also making the levels feel unique and slightly otherwordly), these towers do not really but instead just give a feeling of sloppy art. Like you say, they stand out negatively to me as well, not positively in the sense of "oh wow, look how surreal / otherworldly this looks!" - which is a shame.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Quick question for those of you with more understanding of drawing techniques: is it me or are the tall narrow towers in Studiopolis drawn in the wrong perspective? I can't find a clear screenshot that shows them (and videos do a better job anyway) but you can see one of them here on the left:

J0ZQx37.jpg


They stand out to me because they seem to be following their own horizon lines while everything else faces the screen (if that makes sense, sorry I don't know how to explain it better in English).

It might be a nitpick, if true, but seeing as Sonic games are known for their fantastic backgrounds and considering Taxman and his team seem to be trying to honor that legacy, I feel I needed to bring it up (just in case I'm right and things can be changed still, in which case it might help if RubyEclipse is still here.)
With these kinds of backgrounds you can't do perspective because the they move. The buildings would have to be 3D models so they could change as the vanishing point moves.

That said, even in drawing 2D non-moving art you can have multiple vanishing points. Those buildings simply aren't square with the foreground, they're diagonal to it. Not all buildings have to be square with each other.

Vanishing points get complicated when you have multiple objects or parts of objects that are in different orientations:

GwfKC9r.jpg
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
For folks who are curious what this game looks like at "native resolution", which appears to be 424x240, I used some screenshots that were released to approximate it.

4sEWhDb.png

q41AFGf.png

XxDOf0s.png

BOrILtU.png
So it'll be exactly one quarter 480p, and will scale up to 3x on 720p. Unfortunately not smoothly enough on 1080p, but it shouldn't really be that big of a deal.

For comparison, Shovel Knight is 400x240. (Which has mentioned is the resolution of the top 3DS screen.
 

TreIII

Member
I would be shocked if SoA at least isn't considering some sort of physical LE with some goodies.

Easiest thing to do, at least in my opinion, would be to just bundle Sonic Mania with the Taxman versions of Sonic 1, 2 and CD. Call the whole pack the "Sonic Mania Collection", or something of that ilk, and price it at 59.99.

Obviously, the most glaring thing would be is that a Taxman!3&K would still be missing from such a collection. But perhaps that would just help increase the demand for such a thing~!
 

Raitaro

Member
With these kinds of backgrounds you can't do perspective because the they move. The buildings would have to be 3D models so they could change as the vanishing point moves.

That said, even in drawing 2D non-moving art you can have multiple vanishing points. Those buildings simply aren't square with the foreground, they're diagonal to it. Not all buildings have to be square with each other.

Vanishing points get complicated when you have multiple objects or parts of objects that are in different orientations:

GwfKC9r.jpg

Cheers for explaining.

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the buildings are not wrong in their perspective but just different because they are not square with the foreground as most other things are but instead have their own vanishing point? And that they look a bit "off" perhaps due to them being static instead of turning along with the screen?

I guess I can accept that, even though I still can't shake the feeling that this slanted perspective on them does not really add anything in that case. It doesn't make the background feel more layered or have more depth imo, if that was the intent - heck, the multiple layers of "screen squared" objects used in the classic games did that job more than adequately I feel.

Like I said, I'm nitpicking on an otherwise great looking game here but then again most of Genesis Sonic's stage backgrounds have always looked near flawless to me and I was hoping Mania would live up to their standards (which it still might of course).

Edit: looking at them again, especially their roof tops in a video like this one by GameXplain around the 4:40 mark, I don't know, something about them simply looks off, perspective wise, like you see them too much from below if that makes sense. Shouldn't their roof top lines converge in the middle of the screen horizontally speaking and vertically at the heigth where the horizon is? Or is that caused by that lack of rotation on them again?
 

RagnarokX

Member
Cheers for explaining.

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the buildings are not wrong in their perspective but just different because they are not square with the foreground as most other things are but instead have their own vanishing point? And that they look a bit "off" perhaps due to them being static instead of turning along with the screen?

I guess I can accept that, even though iI still feel that the slanted perspective on them does not really add anyhting in that case. It doesn't make the background feel more layered or have more depth imo - the multiple layers of "squared" objects used in the classic games did that job more than adequately.

Like I said, I'm nitpicking on an otherwise great looking game here but then again most of Genesis Sonic's stage backgrounds have always looked near flawless to me and I was hoping Mania would live up to their standards.

Edit: looking at them again, especially their roof tops in a video like this one by GameXplain around the 4:40 mark, I don't know, something about them simply looks off perspective wise. Shouldn't their roof top lines converge in the middle of the screen horizontally speaking and vertically at the heigth where the horizon is? Or am I now not understanding your explanation again?

Yeah, they have different vanishing points because they aren't square with everything else.

But I'm also saying that since it's a moving image 2D backgrounds can't simulate perspective because as the image moves so does the vanish point and the perspective would be constantly changing. Only 3D models can do that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ8gRp8whOc

See how the clock tower in the background changes perspective as Richter walks past it? That's because it's a 3D model. A 2D background isn't able to simulate that.
 
Easiest thing to do, at least in my opinion, would be to just bundle Sonic Mania with the Taxman versions of Sonic 1, 2 and CD. Call the whole pack the "Sonic Mania Collection", or something of that ilk, and price it at 59.99.

Up until the new sprite showed up in the trailer and it cut to gameplay, I thought it was going to be an announcement of a new compilation featuring the Taxman ports.
 

Raitaro

Member
Yeah, they have different vanishing points because they aren't square with everything else.

But I'm also saying that since it's a moving image 2D backgrounds can't simulate perspective because as the image moves so does the vanish point and the perspective would be constantly changing. Only 3D models can do that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ8gRp8whOc

See how the clock tower in the background changes perspective as Richter walks past it? That's because it's a 3D model. A 2D background isn't able to simulate that.

Ok, got ya.

Final question then, if I may: with that non-rotation caveat in mind, do you feel that the manner in which these towers are drawn is adding anything, artistically speaking, or should they perhaps have stuck to flat looking, non-slanted objects like before in earlier games?
 

Sciz

Member
Ok, got ya.

Final question then, if I may: with that non-rotation caveat in mind, do you feel that the manner in which these towers are drawn is adding anything, artistically speaking, or should they perhaps have stuck to flat looking, non-slanted objects like before in earlier games?

Having them at an angle requires more unique tiles and shading, which adds more depth and color to the overall scene, which helps drive home that this is no mere 16-bit game.
 

TreIII

Member
Up until the new sprite showed up in the trailer and it cut to gameplay, I thought it was going to be an announcement of a new compilation featuring the Taxman ports.

Same. But every so often, being surprised in the best way possible is more than worth it.

That said, the fact that the Taxman ports aren't on current gen consoles is still something I think is odd. Especially with how much Sega usually loves to port Sonic's catalog all over the place.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Hey GAF!

Been waiting so long to finally show you guys this game. Reading all the posts here has been amazing - thank you so much for the support. Seriously. :)

We've been planning this for some time, and the entire team behind the project are all extremely talented. As we go forward, we plan to tour the game around even more so that more people can get some time to play it and really experience how good it is. (Up next is Summer of Sonic in the UK.)

So excited to show you guys what comes next for this one!

glad to see you around, ruby! hope you've been well, man
 

celsowmbr

Banned
From Stealth (on sonicretro's forum):

I can only imagine that this "fan game" business that keeps popping up is just a manifestation of jealousy. I wonder how many realize that I've personally been banging my head against this for 25 years? :/

A lot of stuff has already been said, but what I can add to the discussion is that everything we do is evaluated by SEGA anyway, and if it doesn't fit their standards and requirements, we're asked to change it. Some of the stuff I've seen used to accuse Mania of being a "fan game" is actually stuff we were asked to do, and in general I perfectly-well understand the reasoning behind the request, too. We work with them directly just like any other studio that anyone might decide to have more respect for

I can't even begin to understand the mindset, anyway. It's bad that "SEGA picked us" (a phrase that pretty much totally misrepresents the situation) because we're fans? So by extension, it's bad that anyone who, besides having legitimate talent, actually understands and cares about a franchise is working on it? Yeah, avoiding that has worked out well in the past :p

On the other end, though, the response has otherwise been pretty amazing! I'm blown away by even this thread alone, thank you all for your support!
 
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