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Sony Announces FY 2009 Annual Results,Sets Ambitious PS3 Sales Target

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
SlipperySlope said:
Gross margin? Alright then, I was correct. I thought the numbers didn't add up, and that could explain it.

Gross margin doesn't include so many expenses.

True. That aside I think your aiming for the wrong total anyway, in trying to make the numbers fit. I doubt the game unit's loss was anything near that. The 50bn yen figure seems to make more sense (whether Oneda meant it was SCE's loss, or just PS3 loss; there's likely not much difference given that PS3 hardware would have been by far their biggest negative contribution).
 

Karma

Banned
unconcerned said:
Actually no. They did 13m last fiscal year, and half of that time the fat ps3's were selling like shit @ $399. The Slim ps3s came through and crushed the buildings. 9 million ps3s were sold in 6 months because of the slim. I remember people on GAF laughed at sony for setting a goal of 13m for last fiscal year. See what happened? So with a full year of the slim ps3 (bar supply issues) i see no reason why sony wouldn't reach their goal of 15m. GT5 bundle for the holidays is a lock, and that will be enough to pick up the slack of not having a "FF13" in Japan this year.

The slim was available for 3 quarters last year. The slim gave the PS3 a huge bump because current owners re-bought the system. They will not have that this year.

ChefRamsay said:
Agreed :p

I concede it may be overly optimistic, but even if you knock 20m PS3s off my 90m estimate, that means Sony has 70m PS3s left in the 10 year cycle.

They are at 35.7m now, and therefore would still have two-thirds of the way left to go! Lots of future sales remaining to recoup the losses via hardware profit, no?

:lol They are not going to sell 70-90 million PS3 units in the next 5 years.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
Karma said:
The slim gave the PS3 a huge bump because current owners re-bought the system. They will not have that this year.

.

Yeah... just like all those Xbox owners replacing their broken units. That must be it!
 

Karma

Banned
Kagari said:
Yeah... just like all those Xbox owners replacing their broken units. That must be it!

Every PS3 owner I know bought the slim. Same will happen with the 360 slim if it makes you feel better.
 
Karma said:
The slim was available for 3 quarters last year. The slim gave the PS3 a huge bump because current owners re-bought the system. They will not have that this year.

33eoe1e.jpg
 

Zoe

Member
Karma said:
Every PS3 owner I know bought the slim. Same will happen with the 360 slim if it makes you feel better.

Damn, does this mean I have to buy 2 slims now to replace my and my boyfriends phatties? :(
 

Suzzopher

Member
Karma said:
Every PS3 owner I know bought the slim. Same will happen with the 360 slim if it makes you feel better.

Wow, they must hate money. I know people who finally bought a PS3 due to the Slim(trading 360s in) but I don't know anyone(bar JigglyWiggly, as his 60gb died) to do that.
 

Karma

Banned
Pistolero said:
Yeah, I was told the same thing by my informant : The rose unicorn...

So no one thinks current owners re buying the system had anything to do with the bump?

I still say no way they reach the 15m sold mark without a PS3 slimmer and another $100 price drop.
 

Suzzopher

Member
Karma said:
So no one thinks current owners re buying the system had anything to do with the bump?

I still say no way they reach the 15m sold mark without a PS3 slimmer and another $100 price drop.

Maybe a very, very small percent. I don't think there are millions of people stupid enough to waste that kind of money. The new design and price cut was quite clearly a sweet spot for consumers.
 

Karma

Banned
Suzzopher said:
Maybe a very, very small percent. I don't think there are millions of people stupid enough to waste that kind of money. The new design and price cut was quite clearly a sweet spot for consumers.

Fair enough. Maybe my friends and the tons of people on gaf rebuying confused my perception of reality. :lol Time will tell.
 

Suzzopher

Member
Karma said:
Fair enough. Maybe my friends and the tons of people on gaf rebuying confused my perception of reality. :lol Time will tell.

Video game forums, do tend to skew reality:lol

I find it amazing that some people I meet in real life have never heard of the Wii D:
 

mintylurb

Member
Karma said:
The slim was available for 3 quarters last year. The slim gave the PS3 a huge bump because current owners re-bought the system.
Karma said:
Every PS3 owner I know bought the slim. Same will happen with the 360 slim if it makes you feel better.
Karma said:
Fair enough. Maybe my friends and the tons of people on gaf rebuying confused my perception of reality. :lol Time will tell.
Whew, nice save!
 

Biff

Member
Karma said:
:lol They are not going to sell 70-90 million PS3 units in the next 5 years.
Well, 6 years. I was directing my estimates in terms of fiscal years (70-90m by the end of FY2015, and we were just given numbers for FY2009).. But it was my mistake as I clearly said '10 year life cycle'.

Anyway, look at my low end estimate of 70m. In 6 years, that would mean just under 12m average. PS3 sales haven't peaked yet, as evident by the jump in estimates from FY09's 13.0m forecast to today's FY10 15.0m forecasts.

I could see PS3 sales peaking at 17.0m in FY11. I think that is very achievable. 32m out of 70m sold in just two years. Four years left to hit 38m? With a $200 PS3 in 2011 and a $150 PS3 in 2013? No problem.

Taurus said:
I just want to ask, do you think MS and Nintendo are just going to sit on their asses doing nothing? It seems that you assume that the market is just waiting there for Sony to grab it while all Nintendo and MS can do is run around waving hands helplessly HINT: new consoles.

Expecting Sony to sell 100 million+ PS3s just because "it's the way they tend to do with Playstations" is just utter bullshit.
Fair argument. I am hedging my bets on brand loyalty in the EU and emerging markets who have yet to transition to what we consider the 'current' generation. There are over 2 billion people in India and China. When they upgrade from their PS2, what are they going to choose? Could be the Wii, could be the PS3... Sony has brand penetration; with proper marketing those 140m PS2s are potentially their best weapon against Nintendo and Microsoft.
 

Vinci

Danish
Karma said:
Fair enough. Maybe my friends and the tons of people on gaf rebuying confused my perception of reality. :lol Time will tell.

Don't worry. GAF can often distort one's measure of reality. According to GAF, the Wii wasn't going to sell worth a shit and the DS was doomed.
 

Taurus

Member
ChefRamsay said:
Fair argument. I am hedging my bets on brand loyalty in the EU and emerging markets who have yet to transition to what we consider the 'current' generation. There are over 2 billion people in India and China. When they upgrade from their PS2, what are they going to choose? Could be the Wii, could be the PS3... Sony has brand penetration; with proper marketing those 140m PS2s are potentially their best weapon against Nintendo and Microsoft.
2 billion PS2s in India and China? Holy crap!

Brand loyalty means absolutely nothing. Otherwise Nintendo wouldn't have lost its crown, PS3 wouldn't be such a failure it is etc.

Those 140 million PS2 aren't active users anymore (most have already moved on to current gen consoles), and those that remain (the casual ones that don't care so much for new tech) are likely to move on to Wii which seems to be the best thing since sliced bread among certain group of customers. The group of 100 million+ active PS2 users sitting on a fence waiting for Sony to make PS3 too attractive to resist just doesn't exist in the real world.
 
ChefRamsay said:
Fair argument. I am hedging my bets on brand loyalty in the EU and emerging markets who have yet to transition to what we consider the 'current' generation

Sega had all kinds of European brand loyalty with the Master System and look where that got them. Some people I see here put wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much stock in brand loyalty.
 

Taurus

Member
Karma said:
Fair enough. Maybe my friends and the tons of people on gaf rebuying confused my perception of reality. :lol Time will tell.
I've seen this happen actually. People actively using gaming forums seems also to be very interested in hw upgrades. For what I've seen the most common thing has been 60Gb launch unit -> 40Gb/80Gb -> Slim.

But I don't believe this is common outside core users. Maybe someone should make a research about this, at least in gaf? I'm pretty sure there aren't that many 60Gb launch units around anymore, at least working ones so those users have had to upgrade.
 

Zoe

Member
Taurus said:
I'm pretty sure there aren't that many 60Gb launch units around anymore, at least working ones so those users have had to upgrade.

You really think that's a safe claim to make?
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
OldJadedGamer said:
Sega had all kinds of European brand loyalty with the Master System and look where that got them. Some people I see here put wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much stock in brand loyalty.

It's very easy to do so, but it's very easy to dismiss it altogether also.

If you took lifetime PS3 sales and 360 sales over its first 3 and a bit years, and compared unit sales and compared average selling cost, you'll find a higher number of units at a higher average sales price. Is that a measure of the brand's value/power? Of course not, not purely, there are other factors that allow Sony to sell more at a higher price. But I think relative brand strength between the two is indeed one of those factors.
 

Baki

Member
Taurus said:
I've seen this happen actually. People actively using gaming forums seems also to be very interested in hw upgrades. For what I've seen the most common thing has been 60Gb launch unit -> 40Gb/80Gb -> Slim.

But I don't believe this is common outside core users. Maybe someone should make a research about this, at least in gaf? I'm pretty sure there aren't that many 60Gb launch units around anymore, at least working ones so those users have had to upgrade.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
 
gofreak said:
This was NPS operating loss for the quarter, 7bn Yen:

110vl2r.png


But like I said, during their call they say that the game business posted a profit in this quarter.

Not very satisfactory if trying to truly track the performance of the game business :|

So that's about U$70 million, that means almost all the money since 1998 is gone, still in the black by about U$300 million though.

http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=19625436&postcount=90

Anyways, this is good and bad for Sony, they lost way too much money but seem to be on their way now, starting over again. Predicting 15 million for this FY does not suggest a price cut IMO, I think it's an optimistic prediction, sure, but if there was a price drop, I believe the PS3 would sell more than 15 million comfortably. I think Sony is banking on Move and GT5. What I think we'll see is U$299 Move bundle 120 or 160GB HDD and U$349 Move bundle 250GB or 320GB HDD. They should still be able to break even or make some money on the HW then because move and Eye and a 1st party game are probably cheap as dirt for them and Cell should be at 32nm this Fall if the rumors are true, so there should be another revision for the PS3 this Fall. For the record I don't think it'll reach the 15 million forecast as it is, I find it highly unlikely actually.

PSP holy shit, no price drop this year, that is really pathetic, I think if Sony dropped the price of the PSP they could ship 10 million, but as it is 8 million might be achievable at this price point. I also think that Sony's vagueness (they said approx same as FY09) in predicting software shipments suggests that the PSP2 is coming.

PS2 will probably continue selling 5+million for at least a couple of years, remember that it's being launched and sold at a lot of developing countries and Sony can always drop the price to U$79 as they're probably making good profit on it.
 

Taurus

Member
Zoe said:
You really think that's a safe claim to make?
Well it's impossible to tell when there's no official statistic, but you can get some kind of overview by reading gaming forums. Don't we also know that PS3's failure rate is something between 10-15%? You don't have to be Einstein to know that the older ones are the ones breaking, just like with X360 and Wii.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Karma said:
Every PS3 owner I know bought the slim. Same will happen with the 360 slim if it makes you feel better.
Damn, Greatest argument since Banned XBL consoles are the reason why 360 keeps selling.

Isn't it NPD day today anyways? :lol
 

Taurus

Member
shintoki said:
Damn, Greatest argument since Banned XBL consoles are the reason why 360 keeps selling.
It's also very VERY naive to think that all Slim owners are new owners. Make a thread about this and let's see what kind of stat we get from gaffers. There's at least something to compare to then. =)
 

Rat Salad

Banned
Kagari said:
Yeah... just like all those Xbox owners replacing their broken units. That must be it!


A Sony fan speaking about console durubility?! PlayStation consoles are notorious for having their owners buy multiple systems every generation. Where the fuck have you been?:lol
 
shintoki said:
Damn, Greatest argument since Banned XBL consoles are the reason why 360 keeps selling.

Isn't it NPD day today anyways? :lol

lol I always took it that because so many 360's were being replaced that M$ was just counting their own number of replacement units as "units sold". heh
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Taurus said:
Well it's also very VERY naive to think that all Slim owners are new owners. Make a thread about this and let's see what kind of stat we get from gaffers. There's at least something to compare to then. =)

No one said all, but Karma attributed the bump primarily to repurchases...that's crazy :p

And we know no such thing about the PS3 failure rate, btw. And looking at forums is not a good way to judge the general failure rate.

I'd also say that repurchases on GAF - i.e. among harder-core gamers - would be higher than average, significantly so. Normal people don't replace $300 or $400 videogame consoles just because it got smaller...GAFFERs, however, are probably a different breed in that respect :p Sampling GAF would give you a skewed result that couldn't be applied to the general base of users.

Anyway, look at software numbers. Software in the last quarter were up over 50% YoY. Look at third party finances, look at the growth in PS3 share. Look at NPD software last month, even. These things aren't purely reflections of userbase changes, but I think you can see the userbase growth reflected there.
 

mintylurb

Member
Taurus said:
It's also very VERY naive to think that all Slim owners are new owners. Make a thread about this and let's see what kind of stat we get from gaffers. There's at least something to compare to then. =)
strawman.jpg
 

Karma

Banned
gofreak said:
No one said all, but Karma attributed the bump primarily to repurchases...that's crazy :p

Sorry, it does sound that way. I never meant it was the primary reason. My original post said people re-buying, $100 price drop and FF in Japan.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Taurus said:

Let's say it was representative... it hardly supports the claim 'I'm pretty sure there aren't that many 60Gb launch units around anymore'.

If after 2 years, 10% of PS3s had failed, it doesn't jive with 'can't be many launch units around any more' after 3. The vast majority of launch units are most likely around based on that kind of failure stat.

Karma said:
Sorry, it does sound that way. I never meant it was the primary reason. My original post said people re-buying, $100 price drop and FF in Japan.

Fairs enough. I'm sure there's people rebuying - a non-negligible number in absolute terms, even - but I'd also be reasonably certain that they make up a relatively minor proportion of sales.
 

Mrbob

Member
PS3 is selling very well right now, there will be no major price drop with it. There may be a price shift of sorts...I can see the 120 going down to 249 temporarily to clear stock, and the 250 to 299. These models will be replaced with a Move enabled PS3 system at $299, perhaps with a 160gb hdd included.
 

Withnail

Member
Most people who 'upgraded' to a slim would have sold or traded their old console anyway, so I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like they just threw it in the bin :lol
 

Suzzopher

Member
I fully expect to see PS3 at under £200 this year in the UK. Whether that is £199.99 or lower I don't know, but I do think that over £200 is a sticking point.
 

Melchiah

Member
Rat Salad said:
A Sony fan speaking about console durubility?! PlayStation consoles are notorious for having their owners buy multiple systems every generation. Where the fuck have you been?:lol

I've never heard from any of my friends, or their friends, that their PlayStations would have died. Hell, my EU launch PS2 lasted for six years, until it started to have problems reading discs. Which means it lasted until the PS3 arrived, and the need for a PS2 ended.
 
Suzzopher said:
I fully expect to see PS3 at under £200 this year in the UK. Whether that is £199.99 or lower I don't know, but I do think that over £200 is a sticking point.

Unlikely. The last price cut we got was £50 off and I don't think Sony will do that again. £30 max if you ask me.
 
Baki said:
Well to be fair, they are no longer losing money on the PS3 anymore. Those losses are mainly due to Q1/Q2 FY 09 performance.

No.

edit: I mean, their losses on PS3 were almost completely ineffective this last fiscal year. I heard it ended at the end of March, which is the end of the quarter.

Either way, I hope someone--psychotext--updates the Super Duper Chart. I'm thinking -800milion~ is not good for any company, especially when MS had a +800million quarter~
 
yurinka said:
PS1 and PS2 had 10 year cycle, if not more. These consoles saw the release of the next gen inside this cycle (I would say around the 6th-7th year). I think with the current gen will happen the same.

The PS3 is not the PS1, and it's definitely not the PS2. Those systems had long cycles because they were market leaders. The NES and SNES had similar long support cycles, or even longer. If the PS3 lasts 10 years, it'll be the first and only non-market leader to do so. The Genesis is probably the current record holder, and it only held out a couple of weak years while the Saturn struggled. The N64 was dead slightly before the Gamecube launched, the Gamecube was dead months before the Wii arrived, and the Xbox was killed outright before the 360 hit stores. That's what happens to also-ran systems, which the PS3 most certainly is.

All that said, this gen has broken the mold in several ways, and the transition to the next gen looks like it could be an odd one as well. So who knows. But I wouldn't put money on the PS3 seeing support for that long, if I were you.
 

Zinthar

Member
Leondexter said:
The PS3 is not the PS1, and it's definitely not the PS2. Those systems had long cycles because they were market leaders. The NES and SNES had similar long support cycles, or even longer. If the PS3 lasts 10 years, it'll be the first and only non-market leader to do so. The Genesis is probably the current record holder, and it only held out a couple of weak years while the Saturn struggled. The N64 was dead slightly before the Gamecube launched, the Gamecube was dead months before the Wii arrived, and the Xbox was killed outright before the 360 hit stores. That's what happens to also-ran systems, which the PS3 most certainly is.

All that said, this gen has broken the mold in several ways, and the transition to the next gen looks like it could be an odd one as well. So who knows. But I wouldn't put money on the PS3 seeing support for that long, if I were you.

I mostly agree, but as you at the end, this gen has broken the mold. The current market leader hasn't dominated among hardcore gamers, and may still see a serious drop-off in sales. There's no guarantee that a Wii 2/HD, whenever it may come, would be a huge boon to Nintendo, as they risk dividing their user base to come out with a product that isn't likely to appeal to the casual market that has been Nintendo's bread and butter.

Microsoft definitely doesn't want to jump-start the next gen this time around, as they're making money on the hardware now and are seem much more likely to reload with a slim 360 bundled with Natal. Developers are likely no more thrilled to start developing for a new platform after spending so much to develop current gen engines.

Sony's situation is the most precarious -- they seem likely to see the most sales growth from here, but Cell has been significantly more expensive to produce, and both Cell & RSX have proven more difficult to cost-reduce than they ever expected.

Sony may actually have the best incentives to jump-start the next gen -- perhaps giving them an opportunity to do what they managed with the PS2 by beating MS & Nintendo to that generation. They could possibly bundle it with both Move & a traditional dual-analog controller, thus ensuring 100% of the install base would be able to use motion control. More importantly, they could switch away from the Cell architecture sooner, getting started with hardware that can see meaningful cost reduction & get new game engines to tailor to PS4 hardware.

The biggest downside to this analysis is that Microsoft may choose to challenge them to keep the PS4 from getting a head start -- which would defeat the chief point for doing it and would just end up hurting the profits of both companies.

There's my half-assed analysis.
 
Zinthar said:
Sony may actually have the best incentives to jump-start the next gen -- perhaps giving them an opportunity to do what they managed with the PS2 by beating MS & Nintendo to that generation. They could possibly bundle it with both Move & a traditional dual-analog controller, thus ensuring 100% of the install base would be able to use motion control. More importantly, they could switch away from the Cell architecture sooner, getting started with hardware that can see meaningful cost reduction & get new game engines to tailor to PS4 hardware.

The biggest downside to this analysis is that Microsoft may choose to challenge them to keep the PS4 from getting a head start -- which would defeat the chief point for doing it and would just end up hurting the profits of both companies.

There's my half-assed analysis.

I thought in that Cell Successor or so thread here, the latest thing said they were back to investigating and researching on the cell?

Regardless, why would anyone jump to start the next gen in the next three years, I think after that would be ideal in this atypical third generation of videogame consoles...
 

noobie

Banned
Actually I was right, the Game business again made a profit in Q4: "The game business achieved a profit in the fourth quarter due to strong sales of first-party software and the elimination of negative margins on the PS3," said Nobuyuki Oneda, chief financial officer of Sony, at a Tokyo news conference."

I wish we can get a better breakdown for the whole year.. But look like first 2 quarter losses were quite huge.
 
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