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[JardeL]

So, Sony sold 35.7 mil PS3s in 4 years, that's 4.2 mil more than MS did with X360.

By the way, those losses include R&D costs like PSP2 or Move?

 

[Truespeed]

Hmm, the projections seem a bit low to me - bookmark that, wallaby's.

 

[gofreak]

This was NPS operating loss for the quarter, 7bn Yen:

But like I said, during their call they say that the game business posted a profit in this quarter.

Not very satisfactory if trying to truly track the performance of the game business :|

 

[Caramello]

I think you pin too much responsibility on Game for NPS overall results.

By the sounds of it, for the last quarter, Game made a profit while NPS overall had a loss. So...you can't really work your math like that.

I'm surprised at the discrepancy between 'game' and NPS for the last quarter. I'm trying to find more detail.

Sony lost $50 billion Yen or roughly $540 million USD from the PS3. That's how much it contributed to the $893 million USD loss in the games division.

My post on the matter with data

 

[yurinka]

So, Sony sold 35.7 mil PS3s in 4 years, that's 4.2 mil more than MS did with X360.

By the way, those losses include R&D costs like PSP2 or Move?

I would say yes. But consider like everybody they always are working in R&D, so you have to add here PS4, and PS3+PSP future cheaper revisions.

 

[deepbrown]

It's worth noting that with these losses, Sony has now officially lost money since entering the game industry.

I don't think that's correct. Weren't they plus 300million before this quarter? And then this quarter turned a profit (full year loss)

 

[Firewire]

So they are no longer loosing money on every PS3 sold?

 

[FrankT]

http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=19625436&postcount=90


SCE had worse losses in recent years.

So ~$4.6 billion this gen. They had improved the year before while tracking back to similar losses from the earlier years this last year. Price cut I'm sure did that which certainly leads me to believe a price cut going forward looks rather silly, but with 15 million eh they'll have to have it.

Corrected.

 

[Celine]

So ~$5.6 billion this gen. They had improved the year before while tracking back to similar losses from the earlier years this last year. Price cut I'm sure did that which certainly leads me to believe a price cut going forward looks rather silly, but with 15 million eh they'll have to have it.

~$4.6 ?

 

[FrankT]

~$4.6 ?

Not with 900 million on top of it.

Y/E 2007 -$1,970,923,859 $1,914,666,388 -$1,969,000,000 -$2,025,257,471
Y/E 2008 -$1,079,994,103 $4,322,637,887 $426,000,000 $3,668,643,783
Y/E 2009 -$664,313,787
Y/E 2010 -$900,000,000

It does look like they have a few hundred million left over from the PS1 era though so not quite yet on wiping it all out.

 

[yurinka]

So ~$5.6 billion this gen. They had improved the year before while tracking back to similar losses from the earlier years this last year. Price cut I'm sure did that which certainly leads me to believe a price cut going forward looks rather silly, but with 15 million eh they'll have to have it.

They think that now it is profitable, will likely post an annual profit of at least 1 billion yen this year from PS3 HW.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21254624&postcount=138

So at the end of the generation maybe this 5.6 billion is back in addition to some profit.

Note they will have even more profit globally thanks to the PS3 at the end of the generation if we consider PS3 games (not hardware), PS3 perifeals and PSN services sales, and the additional profit the console would be added to HD TVs, 3DTVs, BlueRay players and movies divisions at the end of the generation.

 

[Tutomos]

If they lose so much money why don't they quit? Very simple answer, because they can make it back.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

Wow, how the fuck do you lose $900million?

I thought it was those LCD Tvs, the currency rate, continued company wide restructuring, and decreased sales of the highly profitable psp and ps2?

The losses should be expected in this day and age thanks to the nature of Sony Corp. Nintendo only has games while Sony has like everything, the bloomberg article explained the reason for the loss actually well I think.

Cause they made billions on revenue they can keep sustaining losses for a good while...

That's my understanding. I hope a psp2 rejuvenates and they can probably make those ps3 sales predictions based on combined new unannounced and rumored titles for this fiscal year to be revealed at e3

 

[Vinci]

I thought it was those LCD Tvs, the currency rate, continued company wife restructuring, and decreased sales of the highly profitable psp and ps2?

Link?

 

[Spiegel]

They think that now it is profitable, will likely post an annual profit of at least 1 billion yen this year from PS3 HW.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21254624&postcount=138

So at the end of the generation maybe this 5.6 billion is back in addition to some profit.

Note it will be even more if we consider PS3 games (not hardware), perifeals and PSN services sales, and the additional profit the console would be added to HD TVs, 3DTVs, BlueRay players and movies divisions at the end of the generation.

Billion yen != Billion dollars

They won't recover these losses this gen.

 

[donny2112]

If they lose so much money why don't they quit? Very simple answer, because they already have the infrastructure setup and it would be a waste to not try to do better from here.

Fixed.

No one but Nintendo is likely to make $6B in gaming in the next few years. PS2's biggest profit year was < $1B with typical years like $600m profit. Perspective is useful.

Edit:
Here's Psychotext's latest update to the financial results chart.

	   Sony		    Nintendo	      Microsoft	        Total
Y/E 1998     $902,811,090   $1,023,333,867                      $1,926,144,957
Y/E 1999   $1,102,563,557   $1,301,350,000                      $2,403,913,557
Y/E 2000     $722,738,949   $1,368,207,547                      $2,090,946,497
Y/E 2001    -$449,776,290     $677,576,000                        $227,799,710
Y/E 2002     $629,101,056     $895,872,180   -$1,135,000,000      $389,973,237
Y/E 2003     $935,569,253     $834,333,333   -$1,191,000,000      $578,902,586
Y/E 2004     $627,195,212     $993,161,303   -$1,337,000,000      $283,356,515
Y/E 2005     $419,888,799   $1,056,056,202     -$539,000,000      $936,945,001
Y/E 2006      $69,129,058     $774,478,055   -$1,339,000,000     -$495,392,887
Y/E 2007  -$1,970,923,859   $1,914,666,388   -$1,969,000,000   -$2,025,257,471
Y/E 2008  -$1,079,994,103   $4,322,637,887      $426,000,000    $3,668,643,783
Y/E 2009    -$664,313,787   $5,691,428,301      $169,000,000    $5,196,114,515

Y/E 10Q1    -$413,541,667     $420,843,750      $312,000,000      $319,302,083
Y/E 10Q2    -$653,333,333     $710,655,556      $375,000,000      $432,011,111
Y/E 10Q3     $210,629,750   $2,087,904,452               N/A               N/A

Total				
	     $387,078,407  $24,072,504,822   -$6,157,000,000   $16,004,049,028
				
Full Year Average
	     $103,665,745   $1,737,758,422   -$1,001,857,143      $914,270,499

Profitable Years				
			8		12		   2		    10
				
Non Profitable Years				
			4		 0		   6		     2
				
Average in Loss Year				
	  -$1,041,252,010              N/A   -$1,251,666,667   -$1,260,325,179
				
Average in Profit Year				
	     $676,124,622   $1,737,758,422      $333,000,000    $1,389,625,094

...and a handy note suggested by Stumpokapow:

The years in the chart above refer to the financial years of each company, which do not align on a calendar basis.

Microsoft is one quarter behind Sony and Nintendo on that chart. They will be the first to report their 2010 calendar Q1 earnings (Jan - Mar), which they report as their 2010 Q3 financial figures. Nintendo and Sony just reported their 2010 calendar Q3 earnings (Oct - Dec), which they report as their 2010 Q3 financial figures.

...and another:

These numbers are the operating income figures for all companies, rather than the net income.

...and another:

As of FY 2010 Q1, Sony are now reporting the results for the re-organised division "Networked Products & Services" rather than the old method of reporting for the gaming division.

"Sony said it will combine its VAIO personal-computer, Walkman and PlayStation businesses in the Networked Products & Services Group to focus on creating gadgets that can work with each other and connect to the Internet."

 

[Tom Penny]

Shortages will prevent them from even outselling the 360 never mind near Wii numbers.

 

[yurinka]

Billion yen != Billion dollars

They won't recover these losses this gen.

LOL I failed. xD
But adding PS3 SW, PS2, PSP and PSN stuff can they reach $1B this fiscal year?

 

[FrankT]

Fixed.

No one but Nintendo is likely to make $6B in gaming in the next few years. PS2's biggest profit year was < $1B with typical years like $600m profit. Perspective is useful.

Which blows my mind to think the 360 division is approaching PS2 era profits this fiscal year (the biggest profit year that is). How does the Wii compare to the best PS2 years? I'm sure this is harder to tell with the NDS in the mix.

Shortages will prevent them from even outselling the 360 never mind near Wii numbers.

Pretty sure that is all but over. I could be mistaken however.

 

[gcubed]

Yea and who actually beleives that really happened. :lol

is the 360 number from a financial report or Sony's estimates, if its from a report, i don't know how you can argue... unless you are saying companies lie on their financial reports

 

[donny2112]

How does the Wii compare to the best PS2 years?

Updated the previous post with Psychotext's last chart update.

 

[FrankT]

is the 360 number from a financial report or Sony's estimates, if its from a report, i don't know how you can argue... unless you are saying companies lie on their financial reports

Oh it is most certainly from the reports, but where in the world did it actually outsell the 360. Name one place and even if it did in Japan it couldn't have been anywhere near enough to make up the rest of the world. And no I'm not big on Sony reports they have in fact changed shipments numbers well after the fact.

 

[gofreak]

Geez. Listening to them talk to about NPS, it makes it sound like a fool's errand to try and dissect the games business performance from it.

Vaio last year overall posted a loss. Other network business posted a loss also.

This FY they expect Vaio and Game to turn around, but that new business and other network business will drag them down and result in NPS overall still being in the red.

Last quarter - a 'small' quarter at that - the performance of the other businesses under NPS dragged results down by north of $75m.

(FWIW, on packaged software they expect PSP to be flat, PS2 to decline, PS3 to rise. They expect network software to rise also.).

 

[gcubed]

Oh it is most certainly from the reports, but where in the world did it actually outsell the 360. Name one place and even if it did in Japan it couldn't have been anywhere near enough to make up the rest of the world. And no I'm not big on Sony reports they have in fact changed shipments numbers well after the fact.

thats fine, can't really argue with you. You don't trust financial reports but you trust your gut more.

 

[Taurus]

Shortages will prevent them from even outselling the 360 never mind near Wii numbers.

I think you should add "/sarcasm" since not everyone can figure it out.

 

[Celine]

Not with 900 million on top of it.

Y/E 2007 -$1,970,923,859 $1,914,666,388 -$1,969,000,000 -$2,025,257,471
Y/E 2008 -$1,079,994,103 $4,322,637,887 $426,000,000 $3,668,643,783
Y/E 2009 -$664,313,787
Y/E 2010 -$900,000,000

...

2 + 1.1 + 0.6 + 0.9 = 4.6

 

[FrankT]

thats fine, can't really argue with you. You don't trust financial reports but you trust your gut more.

I trust this;

US NPD

~1.1 million X360 (Q1)

~260K PS2 (Q1)

Now combine that with Europe and the rest of the world and tell me where it outsold the the 360 again.

...

2 + 1.1 + 0.6 + 0.9 = 4.6

Yea, you are correct totally reading that wrong.

 

[Celine]

So at the end of the generation maybe this 5.6 billion is back in addition to some profit.

no.

 

[Vinci]

Updated the previous post with Psychotext's last chart update.

But that's a company breakdown. Is there any spreadsheet comparing what the Wii itself has done compared to what the PS2 did? Nintendo has always had handhelds to skew the numbers.

 

[yurinka]

Oh it is most certainly from the reports, but where in the world did it actually outsell the 360. Name one place and even if it did in Japan it couldn't have been anywhere near enough to make up the rest of the world. And no I'm not big on Sony reports they have in fact changed shipments numbers well after the fact.

PS3 vs 360 HW worldwide LTD became closer with the years, specially after the big PS3 price cut. Now (as of March 2010) there is 4.5M distance I think.

I think USA and UK (around 20% of Euro market) are the big markets where the 360 has a bigger install base. Same happens in Japan with PS3. BTW does anyone has PS3 vs 360 HW LTD sales updated until March in USA,Japan and UK?

The combined sales of the other smaller markets I think should be around 50% or maybe with a really small PS3 lead globally considering this 4.5M.

 

[FrankT]

PS3 vs 360 HW worldwide LTD became closer with the years. Now there is 4.5M distance I think.

I think USA and UK (around 20% of Euro market) are the big markets where the 360 has a bigger install base. Same happens in Japan with PS3. BTW does anyone has PS3 vs 360 HW LTD sales updated until March in USA,Japan and UK?

The combined sales of the other smaller markets I think should be around 50% or maybe with a really small PS3 lead globally considering this 4.5M.

We are talking about the PS2 bro. That was a comment in reference to it.

 

[Flachmatuch]

no.

They'll do it, using their new 200 year plan

 

[Taurus]

They think that now it is profitable, will likely post an annual profit of at least 1 billion yen this year from PS3 HW.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21254624&postcount=138

So at the end of the generation maybe this 5.6 billion is back in addition to some profit.

I don't know if you noticed but that 5.6 billion is dollars, when the number above is yen.

Either way, that bolded part makes you sound like a fucking lunatic. In PS2 era when Sony was completely ruling the market their best FY result was 960 million dollars profit. Now PS3 is in 3rd place and nowhere near the success that PS2 was and you think it suddenly starts raining money in Sony HQ? :lol :lol

 

[gbovo]

One thing that's irked me so far about Move, or I suppose that's curious, is that practically all the software coming from Sony isn't from existing Sony studios. They're nearly all from new studios, or from external studios they've contracted in (with the exception of one game from Sony Cambridge).

Filling a gap until their more 'star' studios adopt it? Or recognition that it needs a different type of software altogether? Either way, Sony's not really leveraging their established talent for it. Yet, anyway...maybe we'll see that change at E3 or TGS, but that'll likely be for non-launch, 2011 software anyway.

Or maybe Sony realises that their 'star' talent are pretty set in thier production strategy ways, and it wouold take fresh blood to implement fresh ideas. Theoretically speaking.

 

[Road]

They only lost 33 million dollars in the Network Products blah blah blah this quarter. That's down from last year, and the lowest in a long while iirc.

Fake-edit: Let me check my maths

Real-edit: My yen conversion skills fail, more like a loss of only 330 million. My previous point does not stand anymore. :lol

They lost $75 million this last quarter. Your other point still stands -- it is the best 4th quarter result since the PS3 launched:

	  Q1	  Q2	  Q3	   Q4	 TOTAL
FY2006	-26.8	-43.5	-54.2	-107.8	-232.3
FY2007	-29.2	-96.7	 12.9	 -11.6	-124.6
FY2008	  5.4	-39.5	  0.4	 -24.8	 -58.5
FY2009	-39.7	-58.8	 19.4	  -7.0	 -86.1

(Billions of yen.)

I think a PS3 price cut depends more on how much money Sony has planned to waste on Move (and if there is indeed a PSP2) than on if they profit on each sold console or not.

 

[Boombloxer]

So if I'm reading this correctly, they're expecting the PS3 to sell almost as much as the Wii?

That is pretty ambitious.

Look at their projected growth apart from the Wii projection--it's not an unrealistic target.

Just get ready for a Price cut.

 

[gcubed]

I trust this;

US NPD

~1.1 million X360 (Q1)

~260K PS2 (Q1)

Now combine that with Europe and the rest of the world and tell me where it outsold the the 360 again.



Yea, you are correct totally reading that wrong.

i have no idea where it came from. If you trust only NPD and extrapolate to the world, then you dont believe the PS3 outsold the 360 either?

 

[gofreak]

Now combine that with Europe and the rest of the world and tell me where it outsold the the 360 again.

The rest of the world is probably a much bigger deal for PS2 than it is for 360, at this stage in its life. It's not too difficult to think that all the places Sony's still pushing PS2 add up to a reasonable number.

Or maybe Sony realises that their 'star' talent are pretty set in thier production strategy ways, and it wouold take fresh blood to implement fresh ideas. Theoretically speaking.

Move doesn't wholly new directions to be applicable though. I forgot about SOCOM, btw. I think other existing studios with stuff coming next year will probably support it also. But I did think it curious just how much of the first batch is coming from 'new' studios.

 

[FrankT]

i have no idea where it came from. If you trust only NPD and extrapolate to the world, then you dont believe the PS3 outsold the 360 either?

We're talking about the PS2 not PS3. Don't mix things.

The rest of the world is probably a much bigger deal for PS2 than it is for 360, at this stage in its life. It's not too difficult to think that all the places Sony's still pushing PS2 add up to a reasonable number.

I don't really buy that argument but ok. Even if you we're to add in Japan I'm fairly certain the numbers wouldn't change by much. I'm sure someone has those which really leaves EMEA, AU and NZ and that just ain't happening. It comes down to shipment numbers, but in actual sale through sorry no way it could make up that kind of gap adding in the rest.

 

[Stink]

Definitely not buying a PS3 again until Sony can prove that they can make their gaming division solvent.

 

[Square Triangle]

I would think that software sales on the 360 are lower because of the modding community?

Although I work in retail and I do see PS3 owners purchasing more than 360 in terms of software, whereas it's the opposite for accessories.

 

[TunaLover]

How can they afford to lose so much money?, I doubt they go for another red year, they will probably add more value at the package, but no price cut, though.

 

[gcubed]

We're talking about the PS2 not PS3. Don't mix things.



I don't really buy that argument but ok. Even if you we're to add in Japan I'm fairly certain the numbers wouldn't change by much. I'm sure someone has those which really leaves EMEA, AU and NZ and that just ain't happening. It comes down to shipment numbers, but in actual sale through sorry no way it could make up that kind of gap adding in the rest.

the 360 outsold the ps2 in japan for the first quarter (by about 20,000), i still have no idea where it's coming from, but i tend to trust a financial report. It does seem a bit outlandish, but i have no idea what the rest of the world does

 

[FrankT]

How can they afford to lose so much money?, I doubt they go for another red year, they will probably add more value at the package, but no price cut, though.

I could see some good bundles comng down the line aye.

 

[gofreak]

I don't really buy that argument but ok. Even if you we're to add in Japan I'm fairly certain the numbers wouldn't change by much. I'm sure someone has those which really leaves EMEA, AU and NZ and that just ain't happening. It comes down to shipment numbers, but in actual sale through sorry no way it could make up that kind of gap adding in the rest.

Well these are reported as retail shipments, not sold-through.

But 'PAL' is now a big area for Sony...they've been making a pretty big push into India the last couple of years. Still a tiny market of course, but it's a relatively fresh market for them.

Ditto with Latin America (although I'm sure a bigger market in total than India).

Sony has been pretty aggressive in the last couple of years about pushing into new developing markets, where PS2 is probably still the most popular choice among their products. And in the 'old-new' markets (the poorer parts of Europe, Russia, the mid-east), I'd say PS2 is still ticking over relatively better than it is in the US or Western Europe. (Though even in Western Europe, I'd imagine it sells more than it does in the US).

Now I'm aware we're talking about markets that are very immature, but if you took them together and totalled them all up, and added to the existing '3-prongs' of US/EU/JPN, the numbers may add up.

The alternative is there was a mistake or Sony's lying

 

[donny2112]

I would think that software sales on the 360 are lower because of the modding community?

Probably because the OP is taking the likely NPD tie ratio that Microsoft gave in its earnings report and extrapolating that as total shipped software, which could be close, but no one would know for sure except Microsoft. For the record, the NPD tie ratio for PS3/Wii is signficantly below their shipped tie ratio.

The alternative is there was a mistake or Sony's lying

Or Microsoft over-shipped the previous quarter and was making it up in the first three months of the year.

 

[ULTROS!]

Also recently, Sony is pushing the PS3 in the Philippines. We had a launch 2 months ago (launch titles were FFXIII, God of War, Uncharted 2, and Ridge Racer 7 for the PS3 and Tekken 6 and LocoRoco for the PSP).

FYI, the PS3/PSP are the first video game consoles to be officially launched in the Philippines ever. :lol

 

[Baki]

I trust this;

US NPD

~1.1 million X360 (Q1)

~260K PS2 (Q1)

Now combine that with Europe and the rest of the world and tell me where it outsold the the 360 again.



Yea, you are correct totally reading that wrong.

:lol :lol Jyettis.

At any rate you should take into account that:

A) Deepbrown was talkin about Q4 (haven't seen the numbers myself)
B) PS2 sells very well in emerging markets (China, India, Russia,Korea,Middle East)
C) Its also quite possible MS overshipped a bit in Q3.

 

[FrankT]

:lol :lol Jyettis.

At any rate you should take into account that:

A) Deepbrown was talkin about Q4 (haven't seen the numbers myself)
B) PS2 sells very well in emerging markets (China, India, Russia,Korea,Middle East)
C) Its also quite possible MS overshipped a bit in Q3.

I know exactly which quarter he was talking about. It be might selling well it just ain't selling through that well every else which is the differnce between sell through and shipped. It is possible MS was on the high side for Q3.

 

[Celine]

Which blows my mind to think the 360 division is approaching PS2 era profits this fiscal year (the biggest profit year that is). How does the Wii compare to the best PS2 years? I'm sure this is harder to tell with the NDS in the mix.

In the last 4 financial years Nintendo made US$ 15.8 Billion in operating income.
That figure , in the videogame industry context, is simply mind blowing.
In comparison if we sum up every and only the profitable years for Sony gaming division ( most pre-PS3 years ) we would get a total operating income of around US$ 5.7 - 6.1 Billion.