Shin
Banned
Knack 3 will be the opener for the presentation while Knack 1+2 will demonstrate how awesome their secret sauce BC chip makes older games look.
That was the dream, but Epic's money-hat was too deep that Knack couldn't compete
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Sony Patents possible PS5 Backward Compatibility method invented by Mark Cerny
- Thread starter Shin
- Start date
Palabragrís
Member
Let me dream for a moment: may the next console be called just 'PlayStation' and be backwards compatible with all previous generations of main Sony consoles? Almost 30 years of history in a single box? I'd love that.
It's not going to happen, but I'd love that.
It's not going to happen, but I'd love that.
JimboJones
Member
Wouldn't they just downclock it? I mean amd got Wii games working through the wiiu, this stuff seems pretty trivial in comparison.
Fox Mulder
Member
The Xbox BC is great and they did amazing technical work from the sound of it.
I just want full BC, not a selection of things approved by publishers. Why can't I play stuff like NCAA Football 14 or Outrun on xb1, or lots of other games that will never get supported. If I need to keep a 360 hooked up anyways, BC loses some of the usefulness.
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LostDonkey
Member
Isnt this just standard process? Sounds a bit of a reach to say cerny invented it. This is how BC works anyway, no?
DonF
Member
It could be something, it could be nothing. They are protecting their work. I hope its implemented cause frankly, I would love to revisit this gen's games later on. We are at a point where I see myself playing this games in the future. Hell, last gen had that effect, considering all the remaster and such. I seldom revisit ps1 or ps2 era games.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
To those saying that BC doesn't matter: That USED to be true. That has drastically changed due to so many games being purchased on digital.
While, I'm not ready to call it a deal breaker, I'd definitely say it matters far more going from PS4 to PS5 than it did for PS3 to PS4.
What I expect will happen is that games will be more like apps how they are on phones, where developers will release one game that can scale between consoles generations and after so much time they can stop supporting an older model.
While, I'm not ready to call it a deal breaker, I'd definitely say it matters far more going from PS4 to PS5 than it did for PS3 to PS4.
What I expect will happen is that games will be more like apps how they are on phones, where developers will release one game that can scale between consoles generations and after so much time they can stop supporting an older model.
When the gen is coming to an end and all people can talk about is being able to play games from the gen before, that's a problem. When a new gen is about to begin and you can have an instant backlog of cross platform games that's something else. We even had that with some PS3 titles on PS4 during the early stages of this gen.
Shin
Banned
Or the people aren't so smart as we make them to be, because system wide super sampling on Pro at launch says hi.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
I would imagine there's a bit more to just downclocking since it's a different microarchitecture...
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
No.
Xbox fans believed backwards compatibility was a major selling point when it was not. What you also have to remember is that Backwards compatibility offered little to no enhancements when it was first introduced on current gen consoles and people would get just about the same visuals and performance on their PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 consoles.
People were also fine with buying upgraded versions of games such as The Last of Us Remastered and Gears of War Ultimate. The only game I really played on my Xbox One X is SSX, and it wasn't different than playing it on my 360 console. Now we move on to next generation. Not only will likely to see visual enhancements, but we'll also see better frame-rate and cross-play enabled with PS4 and PS5 consoles.
Thiagosc777
Member
Every game running on X1 offers visual enhancements, even on the base X1. All of them run with V-sync enabled, meaning no screen tearing, which was common in the previous generation. They all have better framerates. On the 1X we get AF16 and some games are in 4k. And you could always play with other 360 players from the X1 since the beginning, because the emulation is basically running a virtualized 360.
I am going to take a screenshot of this to make fun of you later.
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SaucyJack
Member
XBO BC would have been a killer feature if it had been there at launch in 2013. Instead it was introduced 2 years later and didn’t flesh out until much later. It’s a very nice feature but the gen was lost by the time it was meaningful.
With the massive increase in digital this gen it will be far more important for next year's next gen.
Fake
Member
You're a genius.
Mass effect was near unplayable on X1 compared to 360. I don't think it had any enhancements either.
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Thiagosc777
Member
Mass Effect was always near unplayable. The game has bad framerate on the 360, dropping to 15 fps or less at times. Even on the 1X it still drops frames. It is just a poorly optimized game.
Journey
Banned
Keep in mind that BC on Xbox automatically enhances games with no extra effort. Games like the OG Red Dead Redemption and Panzer Dragon Orta running in 4K and playing with sharper textures is a sight to behold, that's why many Xbox gamers were excited, while console warriors downplayed the benefit.
So what's the difference here? "Spoofing" the CPU ID would mean the game is running identically with no enhancements, I mean being able to play old games is great and all, but not as exciting as firing up Panzer Dragoon Orta and playing it in HD with gorgeous textures, so if that still warranted a downplay, why is this any better?
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
You literally embarrass yourself in every thread, so you shouldn't talk about making fun of anyone.
Framerate
This is something you don't understand. Xbox One X and Xbox One runs last generation games through an emulator, and the games really receiving a 30 to 60 frame-rate boost are the ones with unlocked frame-rate enabled.
This means next generation consoles will not emulate PS4\XB1 titles. We have the possibility to see games running at 60 fps than can easily be patched into the game.
Visuals
All games are not enhanced. Even DF says you will not see improvements on all titles, something that I didn't see with SSX. There are games that are actually enhanced and you will see the improvements.
And make sure you read my posts.
Imtjnotu
Member
Is this patent new or is it still related to last year's BC patent?
https://gametransfers.com/sony-registers-backward-compatibility/
https://gametransfers.com/sony-registers-backward-compatibility/
Dee Dah Dave
Member
I hope Sony gets it right. I always expect them to make a bit of a pigs ear of things like this.
Thiagosc777
Member
I think you should watch the video you posted, because he mentions vsync and the lack of screen tearing. Every game has that, even on the base X1. And that's a visual improvement.
Also, you don't seem to understand gaming basics, such as framerate. Games drop frames, especially in the previous generation. The X1 can keep a more stable framerate, meaning where the game would drop on the 360, it doesn't on the X1. It has nothing to do with 30-60. You are just clueless.
Overall playing 360 games on the X1 is preferrable, even if you own a base model.
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
I watched the video, maybe you should take the time to read my comments. I said it offered LITTLE to no visual difference when it was first introduced and I said I saw no difference when playing SSX. If there's a little difference when it was first introduced, when that means there's a difference, which makes your point about v-sync, etc irrelevant since I never claimed that it never offered any difference overall.
It was poorly optimised but it performed worse on the X1 than it did on 360. The only time X1 was good was during cutscenes
Thiagosc777
Member
Well, this framerate comparison between the 360, X1 and 1X shows both X1 systems consistently ahead:
Thiagosc777
Member
Vsync is not a little visual difference. It makes a major difference. Also it offers better framerates to all games. That's not small either.
Rayderism
Member
If PS5 played all previous Playstation games (physical and digital), it would be THE Playstation to get. It would be a win-win-win-win-win. And if it also played their handhelds, another win-win. A win-x7. It would be a god-tier console that you'd have to be a fool to pass up. They wouldn't be able to make them fast enough. Seriously, if it did all that, they could actually get away with selling it for five hundred and ninety-nine US dollars, and people would be there day1.
But I highly doubt it will be all that......it won't be that easy. They'll find some way to make it more complicated than just accessing your PSN login and go.
But I highly doubt it will be all that......it won't be that easy. They'll find some way to make it more complicated than just accessing your PSN login and go.
Fake
Member
Not always. Bad implemantion means judder.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Compared to a higher resolution output vs game running nearly the same res with vsync? Yes, it's small.
Thiagosc777
Member
Like what game?
Fake
Member
Like most of the games that 'tryed' to implement v-sync in past gen/current gen. I not saying 'xbox bc games don't implement well', but what I saying is without a 'good implementation' is better don't even try to implement v-sync.
Thiagosc777
Member
Ok, then. So you are just making up some FUD to discredit the Xbox BC work, but doesn't have anything specific to point out.
Fake
Member
No no, you misread me. What I saying is its not 'every' sittuation with v-sync made a good job in gaming. And I not discredit Xbox BC, actually BC is the one of the reasons to get a Xbox imo. I'm a big fan of Gears and Forza too btw.
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bhunachicken
Member
You're obviously trolling, but I'll bite anyway.
Consoles are highly specialised machines, whereas PCs are far more generalised. I don't know why the actual x86 instruction set hasn't been used by Sony up until now, but remember that the original Xbox DID use x86. They changed to PowerPC because it met their requirements better - it costs less, had lower power consumption, had lower latency, and ... yes, it was just better for what was required of a games machine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_specifications
The PS4 has a crap load of custom chips in it to handle specific tasks (such as zlib decompression). But if you want to go with a real comparison, consider what would happen if you decided to put Spider-Man, H:ZD, or GOW on a PC.
Think you'd get those games in 5.5GB of memory (both RAM and VRAM, because it's shared)? I'm talking same resolution and frame rate here. No. No you wouldn't. A PC version of those games would likely have an 8GB RAM minimum, plus 2-4GB of VRAM, specs far outstripping the console counterparts.
So, yes, there is a reason for the madness of not just using an off the shelf Intel or AMD chip (and even the ones in the PS4 and Xbox One aren't, because they've had all kinds of things done to them to meet the requirements of the systems).
When you look at it, the PS4 was an absolute bargain launching at £350 with those specs. You couldn't build a PC with those specs (yes, including the Blu-Ray drive), and that form factor for the same amount of money. And Sony were even selling those at a profit.
So, yes, everything that Cerny does identifies the man as a genius.
And if you think he's not, as your clear sarcasm demonstrates, you go and build a dedicated gaming machine with all the PS4 gave us, for the same costs, form factor, and all. I'm quite certain there will be a job for you at Sony, MS, and Nintendo when you bring the thing to E3. Just try not to make the housing melt if it runs too hot.
theHFIC
Member
I can't see Sony releasing a next gen system that still reads CDROMs. PS4 didn't do it and they didn't even include a 4k UHD BluRay drive on the Pro. This looks like a patent for the sake of patenting something.
I don't think we will see anything less than PS4 get backward compatibility on next gen PlayStation. Any other backwards compat will be coming from digital sales that may run in an emulation layer or PlayStation Now.
I don't think we will see anything less than PS4 get backward compatibility on next gen PlayStation. Any other backwards compat will be coming from digital sales that may run in an emulation layer or PlayStation Now.
Negotiator
Member
Wrong, it can actually read CDs:
Playing back audio CDs is a different matter, since it requires extra licensing costs.
I think most PS4 users will be happy with just PS4 backwards compatibility. I will be anyway.
thelastword
Banned
That's a very interesting post because Sony did just that with PS3 and funny enough it was $599 too, you could play all your PS2 and PS1 disks, play every game from every generation before...... Guess what happened, PS3 was absolutely slaughtered in the media and on forums.....People complained about the price, especially those interested in BC. Some people just want everything for nothing.....All you heard was work two jobs and the George Foreman Grill..
So the real question is this, how much are you willing to pay for such a console. You think the people asking for PS1-PS4 BC are willing to pay say $1000.00 for it, you can use all your disks and you don't have to plug any other PS console, you get your convenience..... Do people really believe Sony can offer all of that at $400 or even $500? How about Sony makes such a console with full PS BC for $1000 and has the regular PS5 with PS4 BC only for $500. You really think the full PS BC console would move off shelves...... I'd just take the 500.00 PS5 and be more than satisfied tbh......but I'm not against choices, I just like people to put their money where their mouth is...
Lots of stutter in MS BC games, soupy textures are just blown up unsightly from base-rez x 3..... AF does not fix these low rez textures and assets. There are many DF videos showing this..... Then framerate which you expect to be doubled is not, games don't hold a solid 30fps in BC, far less 60 with last gen console settings which were lower than what you got on PC.... Look at something like Oblivion, sub 30fps, Morrowind from OG XBOX with worse settings than PC can't do solid 60fps at a 4:3 ratio....... The point is, if you're not going to do it well, don't do it at all...... At least with PS5's patent, they will inject new textures into old games, double the framerate and improve IQ beyond AF, at least there's incentive there......to go back and play.
As for those saying I have a boner all of a sudden, my stance was and always has been, give me an incentive to play old games and I will or may, it's why I love proper remastered and remakes.... If PS5 has PS4 BC, it's a nice bonus, no doubt, at least all PS4 games will be BC as opposed to being drip fed, it's pretty much a lock anyway, but I don't expect much more than PS4 BC, if there's more great, further bonuses, but to be frank, my purchase of a PS5 in late 2020 has nothing to do with BC.......If it's there, great.....but it's not why I'm purchasing the system........
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Related, but that was filed in the US, this one was recently filed in Japan's patent office.
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quickwhips
Member
Sounds like it’s using CPU specs so no upgrades in graphics as this would run maybe like ass. Might be reading to much into it so wait and see. Shame they didn’t give ps1 and ps2 games that I already bought on ps3. If I have to buy them again they can fuck off.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
It was pretty obvious PS5 would be BC. Good to see it's basically confirmed.
All consoles should be BC going forward..... at least for a few gens.
Just like PCs, understandable that there's certain OS/spec minimums to run games so a game won't run on every PC forever, but if console makers can make games let's say cover 3 gens of games before lopping off an old gen that would be awesome.
All consoles should be BC going forward..... at least for a few gens.
Just like PCs, understandable that there's certain OS/spec minimums to run games so a game won't run on every PC forever, but if console makers can make games let's say cover 3 gens of games before lopping off an old gen that would be awesome.
pimentel1
Banned
He created Marble Madness. Yes he is,
Thiagosc777
Member
Says the person who never played it.
On the contrary, there was so much detail that was hidden behind low resolutions in the previous generation. The textures on RDR on the 1X hold up pretty well. And the perfomance is boosted for all games. It's the best way of playing older games.
Hudo
Member
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/sony...tibility-why-would-anybody-play-this.1385853/The salt because Sony will have true compatibility
stranno
Member
I dont see how an x86 APU can magically emulate four completely different architectures (PSX MIPS, PS2 EE, PS3 CELL and PS4 JAGUAR) but ok. This CPU ID thing doesnt explain a shit. World doesnt work like that..
MS recompile the XBOX 360 executables in x86 native code in order to run games in a weak XBOX One, while they patch some calls around in HLE.
MS recompile the XBOX 360 executables in x86 native code in order to run games in a weak XBOX One, while they patch some calls around in HLE.
Punished Miku
Member
Yeah, he figured out what Xbox is doing right now. Genius!
Negotiator
Member
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