Neuromancer
Member
I don't disagree that they made bad (or unlucky, if you'd rather) tech decisions but for me what sunk them was DRM and the toxic PR surrounding the entire brand for months. Either way it's been a shit show.
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Techspot 'Xbox One's struggles are traceable to one bad decision'
- Thread starter jelly
- Start date
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
The general public does not know shit about power of the hardware or resolution.
Microsoft's terrible reveal, terrible messaging and the negative press that followed is why the Xbox one will be 2nd or third all Gen.
People forget that the anti-DRM sentiments and not being able to sell your games or let people borrowed games etc actually went mainstream beyond gaming forums which is what got Microsoft to change the policy and others.(low preorder numbers)
Like no offense, but if it was just us forum nerds complaining, nothing would have changed.
eso76
Member
Bolded are (entirely or in part) consequences of the RAM choice though.
That's 3 out of the 5 reasons you listed.
And reason number 4 "it's what my friends bought" could be an indirect consequence (a lot of those "friends who bought one" probably chose it over the Xbone because it was more powerful/cheaper/smaller)
5 is the only reason that isn't hardware related. Then again, that's assuming 'games i want to play' means 'series i like' and not "games i want to play because they look so effing good".
In the end, word of mouth counts a lot. I've spoken to tons of casuals (even halo, forza fans) who were not happy with MS releasing a console that is said to be 'worse' while 'being more expensive'. Btw, a lot of those could never tell what "worse" actually means.
After that, the Psone/iPhone effect triggered: the more units sold...the more units it will go on selling to people who will buy one just because "everyone has it !"
intheinbetween
Member
I don't think XB1 is that big compared to PS4:
XB1: 3.1 x 10.8 x 13.1 in
PS4: 2.09 x 10.83 x 12.01
XB1: 3.1 x 10.8 x 13.1 in
PS4: 2.09 x 10.83 x 12.01
I don't think you can really point to one specific thing, but this definitely doesn't help. The Xbox One was behind in the consumers mind from the start. Now that we've seen that it's a weaker system, that translates to salesman saying "the PS4 version is better" without really knowing why.
So it's really a number of factors.
So it's really a number of factors.
Wrong (as others have said as well). The PS3, when handled correctly, is more powerful that the 360. It just is. The problem is that it is a beast to develop for. Earlier game issues had more to do with engine/tool optimization than anything else.
How can they be to blame when you basically get the gpu's of these consoles thrown at you in the pc market. You can't really buy anything worse if you care at least slightly about gpu power, cause the price difference at this power segment is so tiny that it would be dumb to settle for less.
The price difference between a gpu with XBox One shader power and one with ps4 shader power is not even 10(!).
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Microsoft's E3 conference after the reveal last year was fine. People really mix up the reveal and the E3 conference. They talked nothing but games at their E3. The interviews at E3 last year were atrocious though
BruiserBear
Banned
That really is an interesting thing to ponder. Really wish they had done that.
The average customer has no idea what these specs even mean. Buzzwords and shocking resolution comparisons on the internet affect word of mouth though. I wouldn't be surprised to see people largely clueless about technology and gaming talk about the resolution.
Maybe you should actually educate yourself on the differences between the two machines before claiming it's all made-up marketing hype.
The average GAF poster doesn't either.
qa_engineer
Member
As others have mentioned there was no mention of the weaker GPU and customizations Sony made to their GPU to better suit GPGPU. But RAM is a pretty big limiting factor as well.
Green Yoshi
Member
Just look at Killzone 3 and Uncharted 3, I don't think that the 360 would have been able to run them. They used some of the SPEs of the Cell for the graphics, while multiplatform games only relied on the inferior Nvidia GPU in the PS3.
It also has a huge power brick.
They really need to out source the console design. No reason it has to be so big and have an external power supply.
Freeman
Banned
It was never the hardware, it was the combination of many things.
The terrible launch of XB1 and the terrible way MS handled everything in the start, they burned many bridges with it.
The fact that in the end the PS3 was a much better choice when it came to value (PS+, free multiplier, more and better exclusives).
Sony already had a much better relationship with indies by the time the consoles were releasing.
The perception that Sony has better exclusives, combined with a better hardware makes picking up the PS4 an easy choice.
Now MS will also have to deal with the perception that most of their "exclusives" show up on PC a few month later.
The PS4 seems to have most of the advantages the 360 last gen (better multis, competitive pricing, didn't release an year later, a well liked controller, better indie support in the start) combined with those of PS3 (PS+, Sony first and second party studios, support from Japanese devs, global appeal).
The terrible launch of XB1 and the terrible way MS handled everything in the start, they burned many bridges with it.
The fact that in the end the PS3 was a much better choice when it came to value (PS+, free multiplier, more and better exclusives).
Sony already had a much better relationship with indies by the time the consoles were releasing.
The perception that Sony has better exclusives, combined with a better hardware makes picking up the PS4 an easy choice.
Now MS will also have to deal with the perception that most of their "exclusives" show up on PC a few month later.
The PS4 seems to have most of the advantages the 360 last gen (better multis, competitive pricing, didn't release an year later, a well liked controller, better indie support in the start) combined with those of PS3 (PS+, Sony first and second party studios, support from Japanese devs, global appeal).
If MS had started the XB1 at 349.99 there never would have been an issue. The consoles power really isn't the problem. The fact that it was the weakest AND most expensive is where the difference is. Now that the XB1 is cheaper the power differential might become a moot point.
old manatee
Banned
No one can stop the Playstation's GDDR5. If they add another stick into the expansion slot the damn thing could rip a hole in space/time and win every console war.
joey_bone_bomb
Member
As if Tomb Raider wouldn't be on XBox anyways.
And I don't see how EA Access is a result of the sales (/power) gap between Xbox and PS.
intheinbetween
Member
well, I thought people talk about the shell not, the ac adapter, that's why they say is bigger or smaller
This is idiotic. The Xbone is getting crushed by the PS4 because it cost too much and focused on TV instead of gaming in its early messaging. Sony focused on games and has a very loyal fan base that was frothing at the mouth to come back to them after the PS3 struggles. Microsoft should have released the Xbox360 successor in 2011 when they still had their foot on Sony's throat and Sony had not started to get the momentum back with the PS3 and Plus.
PoweredByHentai
Member
I am honestly more interested in how hUMA is going to be used. Sony actually implemented hUMA into the AMD Jaguar architecture that originally didn't have such a feature. In fact, hUMA was introduced with the Kaveri architecture.
http://arstechnica.com/information-...orm-memory-access-coming-this-year-in-kaveri/
Put it this way, Mark Cerny and Sony were designing a 2013-2014 chipset feature since 2008 or so.
Not true in terms of the PS2 gen.
I honestly think that some of you guys are factoring the 360's higher sales of multiplats due to them looking better on the system a bit too much. It helped, but what helped way more was the system's head start therefore causing it to have a larger user base + Xbox Live.
Call of Duty's impact on the Xbox 360 would have been exactly the same even if the games looked slightly better on the PS3.
Amentallica
Unconfirmed Member
If Xbox One existed in a vacuum, I think it would be doing better than it currently is. But because it doesn't, and because the PS4 is alive and kicking, it faces stiff competition. Therefore, to deduce from all of this that the Xbox One is struggling simply because of 'one bad decision' is to somewhat discredit Sony for producing a competitive product. Just my thoughts on it.
Duxxy3
Member
The decision to go a more general route was the worst decision. That led to the Kinect push,weaker GPU, and then they panicked and put in esram after seeing the ps4 specs.
I'm not even sure there is enough gddr5 on the planet to feed both consoles with 8GB. Even one console getting that much was a huge risk.
Microsoft could have got away with it I'd they had buffed the GPU accordingly, and doubled the esram.
I'm not even sure there is enough gddr5 on the planet to feed both consoles with 8GB. Even one console getting that much was a huge risk.
Microsoft could have got away with it I'd they had buffed the GPU accordingly, and doubled the esram.
I seriously doubt Microsoft is throwing in the towel. In absolute numbers the Xbox One is selling better than the 360 which was already really successful. Granted the PS4 is selling that much better.
A 40% lead worldwide makes sense since PS4 shipped to more places and Playstation generally does better outside the US. I think launch price and initial backlash over the DRM thing (people still think it's in there) were the biggest factors in slower adoption. The bundles ($400 with a game, now $350) will drive sales and keep Microsoft in spitting distance of the PS4 in North America.
I have all three systems, but the Xbox gets the least playtime. PS4 = Destiny box, Wii U = Bayonetta machine, Xbox = Sunset Overdrive. This holiday's NPDs are going to be super interesting given how aggressive MS is being with price and software updates but right now for me there just aren't that many exclusives I want. The launch games I was really excited for (Crimson Dragon, Forza 5) were disappointing and the multiplats played better on PS4.
I think all those contribute to the overall picture. MS has the right price/deals. Marketing isn't the problem, getting quality software out that can't be played anywhere else (Sunset Overdrive, Fantasia, and Master Chief Collection) are what they need to do. Sony's exclusives are almost all pushed back to 2015. They can afford those delays for now since third parties are picking up the slack.
That's a lot of words to basically say "The XBone is far from doomed"
A 40% lead worldwide makes sense since PS4 shipped to more places and Playstation generally does better outside the US. I think launch price and initial backlash over the DRM thing (people still think it's in there) were the biggest factors in slower adoption. The bundles ($400 with a game, now $350) will drive sales and keep Microsoft in spitting distance of the PS4 in North America.
I have all three systems, but the Xbox gets the least playtime. PS4 = Destiny box, Wii U = Bayonetta machine, Xbox = Sunset Overdrive. This holiday's NPDs are going to be super interesting given how aggressive MS is being with price and software updates but right now for me there just aren't that many exclusives I want. The launch games I was really excited for (Crimson Dragon, Forza 5) were disappointing and the multiplats played better on PS4.
I think all those contribute to the overall picture. MS has the right price/deals. Marketing isn't the problem, getting quality software out that can't be played anywhere else (Sunset Overdrive, Fantasia, and Master Chief Collection) are what they need to do. Sony's exclusives are almost all pushed back to 2015. They can afford those delays for now since third parties are picking up the slack.
That's a lot of words to basically say "The XBone is far from doomed"
Most products would do better without competition.
Out source the console design? Did you just call their entire team of professionals incompetent? What the hell.
It's this big and has such a PSU so that there aren't heating issues like the 360 had. I'm betting that XboxOne will prove more reliable in the longterm than the PS4 just because of its design.
This article puts the cart before the horse, because the decision to use DDR3 RAM was made because they'd decided to make it into an all-singing-all-dancing Kinect-powered Windows 8 box. That was their biggest mistake, they completely misread the market. This was then compounded by the fact that literally everything they could have mismanaged they managed to absolutely fuck up beyond all possible belief. It was a Marketing 101 course on how to tank a brand. I wouldn't be surprised if it's taught in business schools in the next few years as a case study in how not to launch a product.
3rdamention
Member
The more I think about this topic, the fact that we can debate and discuss what that "one bad decision" really is, that is the real problem.
It really isn't traceable to 1 bad decision when many people here have many different examples of that "one bad decision." That could be the problem.
It really isn't traceable to 1 bad decision when many people here have many different examples of that "one bad decision." That could be the problem.
Diprosalic
Banned
was the 360 really a success? did they ever make money with it?
Amentallica
Unconfirmed Member
I was under the impression that between 360 sales and Live subscriptions the Xbox Platform was really successful. I'll look for a source but if someone has it handy it'd be interesting reading.
Diprosalic
Banned
they spent a shitload on it and sold it for a loss for quite some time. nevermind the RROD fiasco. I'd be extremely surprised if they ever made a dime on that thing.
Im the same, Id like to buy the XO and tempted at considering it, but Xbox execs keep reminding me regularly why I shouldnt support their product
. Its a shame the XO has such a stigma because in reality as a platform its heading in the right direction...ps3ud0 8)
Killing_Joke
Member
There is no one reason. It's a combination of trying to fuck over the consumer, holding on to kinect even though it was doomed to fail, and just so happens to be the weaker console. They're PR was also the worst I've ever seen.
But yeah, that RAM sure killed them....
But yeah, that RAM sure killed them....
PoweredByHentai
Member
Except that Microsoft started R&D on the Xbone in 2011.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=571921
My take is that any time an engineer says "Late <year>", it means that the project went into full gear at the start of the following year. A lot of it has to do with allocation of resources and recruiting/reassigning members from other projects during the first few months. This also makes more sense (to me at least) as to why the Xbone feels like poorly designed product, especially when you consider the horror stories from people complaining about long installation times because the system is actually trying to download a patch instead of finishing the disc installation first.
Why Microsoft didn't start their R&D on the 360's successor before 2010 is just weird to me.
duessano
Member
Yes just like they out source the x360 controller design and the apu itself in xbone.
With xbone they spent 100 million on xbone controller design in house. Just insane....
TTOOLL
Member
Yep, but policies can and were changed. You can't improve hardware during the generation. We've known for a long time now that the PS4 will always have better multiplats because graphics. It's year one and everybody knows the PS4 will have games the Xone will NEVER match graphically speaking.
Hardware was the true flaw that stands.
Maybe for people on GAF the power of the XB1 was the reason to get choose a PS4 over the XB1, but I think for the average person that's far from the truth.
As many others have said though I think it had to do with the reveal, pricing, and anti-consumer policies.
-The reveal focused on entertainment. Not games.
-The reveal said you had to have a Kinect. Many did not want a Kinect and didn't see the reason why you'd need one... especially for gaming.
-The cost of the XB1 was $100 more than the PS4 because of the Kinect, and as others have stated, for a weaker console.
-The always online requirement. Remember they said "we have a console that doesn't have these requirements, It's called the 360." That was a big F U to many people.
-You couldn't trade in used games initially.
I know there are more reasons, but seriously, I think most people on GAF could have marketed the same product better during the release than MS did, even though it's weaker. If MS just did what they are doing now with XB1, I still think it would be behind PS4 in sales globally, but I think the XB1 would be close to equal or above the PS4 in the US. It's all a moot point though because it is what it is now.
As many others have said though I think it had to do with the reveal, pricing, and anti-consumer policies.
-The reveal focused on entertainment. Not games.
-The reveal said you had to have a Kinect. Many did not want a Kinect and didn't see the reason why you'd need one... especially for gaming.
-The cost of the XB1 was $100 more than the PS4 because of the Kinect, and as others have stated, for a weaker console.
-The always online requirement. Remember they said "we have a console that doesn't have these requirements, It's called the 360." That was a big F U to many people.
-You couldn't trade in used games initially.
I know there are more reasons, but seriously, I think most people on GAF could have marketed the same product better during the release than MS did, even though it's weaker. If MS just did what they are doing now with XB1, I still think it would be behind PS4 in sales globally, but I think the XB1 would be close to equal or above the PS4 in the US. It's all a moot point though because it is what it is now.
Ol No Bones
Banned
Honestly I don't think the tech is going to be the biggest struggle this Gen. People got a whiff of the anti consumer ideas Microsoft had and although those IMO were blown way out of proportion it hurt regardless. Another that hurt them going into the new Gen was how first party support was at an all time low for Microsoft leading into this generation. The focus they had put on Kinect in the 360 left them only with sequel after sequel of "hardcore" games and even those had lost their quality to some extent. Halo 4 and Gears of war judgement were probably the worst in the series and meanwhile Sony was releasing an exciting new IP last of us. Microsoft lost some goodwill those last few 360 years. Even though the Xbox is IMO kicking sony's ass in the first party department right now Sony didn't have a PR blunder or lose good will going in to the generation. Sony had a simple message solid, less expensive hardware and no one thought from launch till now their first party support would be so damn pathetic.
Microsoft has a few things going for it. It has good games to play but not quite a killer app. It gas the best online service and OS by far.
Sony is still riding a shit ton of good will and made much better hardware/price decisions.
Microsoft has a few things going for it. It has good games to play but not quite a killer app. It gas the best online service and OS by far.
Sony is still riding a shit ton of good will and made much better hardware/price decisions.
MS started loosing this battle three years ago, when they basically abandoned their best console yet and let the PS3 gain momentum. By the time the Xbox One was announced, most of my friends had moved on the the PS3 after being 360 only gamers for the whole generation. Three years ago Live and 360 where the place to play, i owned a PS3 already like many of my friends but it was only used for exclusives back then.
They lost their momentum when they decided to focus on Kinect and basically ditch everything else.
They lost their momentum when they decided to focus on Kinect and basically ditch everything else.
BFIB
Member
It was a situation where MS was coming off of huge sales of the 360, and at the time, though they could push the industry around with their DRM policies.
You had Sony with a system developed that had the ability to create some incredible visuals, but a really difficult engine to work with.
Sony went into this gen with a console that is easy (compared to PS3) to develop for, and offered as much gap as they could create with their hardware. MS was caught flat footed with their DRM pushback, bad PR from Mattrick and co. and created a still powerful system, just not as powerful as what the competition was offering.
Its still early in the current gen, but both systems offer great value for what you get. $350 currently for an XBox One is a fanstastic deal, and I'm still trying to figure out how Sony managed to pull $400 for their console.
You had Sony with a system developed that had the ability to create some incredible visuals, but a really difficult engine to work with.
Sony went into this gen with a console that is easy (compared to PS3) to develop for, and offered as much gap as they could create with their hardware. MS was caught flat footed with their DRM pushback, bad PR from Mattrick and co. and created a still powerful system, just not as powerful as what the competition was offering.
Its still early in the current gen, but both systems offer great value for what you get. $350 currently for an XBox One is a fanstastic deal, and I'm still trying to figure out how Sony managed to pull $400 for their console.
TheGreyHulk
Member
Going for esram on the chip was a terrible decision. It stole space away from the GPU so they ended up with 50% less CU's and ROP's. The esram made the APU chip larger and more complex to manufacture, so any cost savings by going for ddr3 ram are somewhat negated by lower yeilds.
The worst is that it didn't cost less even though its noticeably weaker in power.
2 consoles launch.. You want in...why would you buy the console that's $100 more expensive and has a noticeably weaker GPU.
It really all did stem back to the ram decision. The DRM issue just added insult to injury
The worst is that it didn't cost less even though its noticeably weaker in power.
2 consoles launch.. You want in...why would you buy the console that's $100 more expensive and has a noticeably weaker GPU.
It really all did stem back to the ram decision. The DRM issue just added insult to injury