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The influx of moderates telling us to tolerate sexism, xenophobia, and racism all day

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How many times do we have to tell you that we (our ancestors) started the conversation for-fucking-ever ago, and white people weren't interested, and they still aren't?

I suppose the dissonance is too strong for most people to handle.

That's a non-answer, and yet another snide one at that. The white vote behind Clinton would almost certainly be interested. Anyone with a bit of humanity would be behind it.

*Let me clarify. I'm talking from the perspective of White moderates. I am not a white moderate

Because it people actually have a shit this fight had been going on already. It's not new. It's not something we need to "learn how to engage" there is no needed education or whatever.

Treat minorities like human beings. That's it. That's the one simple inroad we got. I'm sorry I'm done bloviating about this needless pontifical bullshit but it's time to collect our check.

This isn't a new battle. If people have a shit they'd have tried fighting the institution that allowed Donald Trump to run for president in the first place

Nobody helped us, as always. So forgive me for having no patience left to teach more blessing heart white centrists how to not be shitheads.

So essentially, there is no answer to solving this issue. Trump sympathizers are irrevocable.

If that is truly the case, then the plan of action should be to regain the votes of those who didn't vote in this election. One could certainly convince some of the red voters to go blue once more given the right candidate.
 

pigeon

Banned
The point isn't that we need to appeal to racists, but that maybe we should try to understand what underlying factors caused a deplorable candidate like Donald Trump to win so that we can ensure it never happens again.

Racism.

Done, bye.
 

wildfire

Banned
I'm sure you and many of us have noticed the sudden shift in the last 24 hours, with many members of this website not only telling POC, LBGT, and women that we should tolerate and be accepting of the right, but pretending that not doing so means that we just wanna stick to an echochamber, are trying to take the moral high ground, are just as bad as the the alt right, and a whole bunch of other logic that anyone with even a semblance of logical thought would see is absolutely ridiculous. The crux of the matter is this:

Why are you targeting this criticism towards minorities, lbgt, and women, why do you feel the need to tell them that they are the issue, not the xenophobia, sexism, and racism?

I'm annoyed you imply the people saying this are white only. I'm not white and I know a woman was saying the same thing.

FYI we weren't framing the idea as criticism towards minorities, lbgt, and women. It was directed to those who wanted to live and those that still live in the echo chamber.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Lol Trump didn't teach out to rural America. He fucking lied to them.

That's not reached pop tarts using them and their believes that ask their problems are other people's fault and that their jobs are coming back. The rust belt is dead. That's just the sad reality.
eh... he did reach out. At a 37% likability rating, had he not lied to them you likely would have seen that 1m voter deficit grow even larger.

But yes, the rust belt is dead. The jobs are never coming back, but just like I outlined above, those voters are stuck there much the same way minorities often feel stuck in the inner cities. If the dems don't reach out to them, they'll just keep voting red because it's what they've always done.
 

Bossking

Banned
So we are going to bitch about the EC now? We knew the rules of the game. Clinton broke the DEM firewall because of her hubris.

Lost PA, WI, MI.

I don't give a fuck about the gop voters. They were never for me. I care why she couldn't bring home our base. They just stayed home instead.

You said she lost because her voters didn't turn up. They did. She won the popular vote. I don't care by how slim of a margin it was, she still won.
 

roknin

Member
Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you for this damn thread, Eden.

I mean that.

As a black man Im fucking terrified right now. I'm scared for my brown friends, my gay friends, my friends that are sick and needed ACA to help them... but no, fuck me, I should "understand" why people voted not just against their own self interests in many cases, but that of millions of others.

And if your reason comes down to "I don't like racism but he's gonna lower mah taxes," then congrats: your reason is "fuck y'all, gettin' mine".

And I will not fucking pretend to understand that.

BTW, when you've got crowd members still screaming "kill Obama", tell me what the fuck I'm supposed to feel right now. Please.
 

Lumination

'enry 'ollins
People aren't victims when they support a person who preaches such a venomous platform. Their positions are understandable but it doesn't alleviate them of the consequences of their vote; they're still putting themselves above people who are even worse off and due to that I'd have to consider them to be pretty shitty people. That's even assuming that a majority of them don't supports Trumps hateful shtick.
I personally agree that minorities are worse off than rural Americans. But we so close to the bottom, does it make a difference? Once you go below a certain point, it all really becomes a question of survival. I cannot blame anyone whom voted for their survival over mine. After all, I did the same. Yeah, I can say I voted Hillary for all minorities, but they have an equal claim that they did it for all of rural America. I'm not sure which group is bigger actually.

False narrative. Clinton lost cause her voter stayed home, not because they switched.
Why can it not be both?

Because they choose to remain ignorant and core for a man who will abandon them and day it's the liberals fault again.

Two minutes on Google would have shown them he's from of shit.
Lack of education is a huge problem in America. Especially when coupled with faith which can also stifle critical thinking.

Also in internet world, it's really easy to get lost in the echo chamber. Remember, Google tailors search results to your history/preferences.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Reading the first 5 pages of this thread...

I just want to say, no wonder Trump won. His side might be hateful, prejudiced, bigots, etc, whatever you might call them, but at the very least they stand united.

Meanwhile, the good guys, the ones supposed to be doing something against his group, all are left in tatters due to infighting and blaming each other.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
That's a non-answer, and yet another snide one at that. The white vote behind Clinton would almost certainly be interested. Anyone with a bit of humanity would be behind it.
It is an answer. We already came to the table. We built it. Set it up. And no one came to the meeting but the minorities who hosted it and a minority of white people.

The fact that you keep denying something you have no knowledge or experience of is damning.

Minorities are telling you there are issues and have brought up ways to fix it and are voicing their displeasure, and you are ignoring it. That is your part in this. Good job.
 
That's a non-answer, and yet another snide one at that. The white vote behind Clinton would almost certainly be interested. Anyone with a bit of humanity would be behind it.
And yet it's been sixty years since the civil rights act passed and look where we are.

So no, I don't believe most voters are behind it.

Not enough to care or make a difference.
 

marrec

Banned
Racism.

Done, bye.

If this is the answer that the Dems go with than we're fucked for future elections cause Racism ain't going to magically go away and we clearly gotta come at our voters with something other than "don't vote for the racist" if we want them to show up.
 
Reading the first 5 pages of this thread...

I just want to say, no wonder Trump won. His side might be hateful, prejudiced, bigots, etc, whatever you might call them, but at the very least they stand united.

Meanwhile, the good guys, the ones supposed to be doing something against his group, all are left in tatters due to infighting and blaming each other.

we're left in tatters because we lost

i don't think we'd be figuring out what went wrong if nothing went wrong
 

Squalor

Junior Member
You are blaming minorities for issues caused by white America, then expecting minorities to be able to fix it on their own by force.
 

Enzom21

Member
Reading the first 5 pages of this thread...

I just want to say, no wonder Trump won. His side might be hateful, prejudiced, bigots, etc, whatever you might call them, but at the very least they stand united.

Meanwhile, the good guys, the ones supposed to be doing something against his group, all are left in tatters due to infighting and blaming each other.

Really? Because I see a bunch of banned folks who were telling minorities they should be nicer to racists.

Edit: And people bitching about the "GAF echo chamber"
I said damn!

Seriously. Its about time this site's echo chamber bullshit got called out.
 

faisal233

Member
You said she lost because her voters didn't turn up. They did. She won the popular vote. I don't care by how slim of a margin it was, she still won.
Ok, I don't even know how to argue with you on this. She came in -6 million from Obama. Trump won the rust belt not by over performing, but by Clinton underperforming.
 

kirblar

Member
The answer has always been to grab control of the levers of power and give them the "live in our world or else" ultimatum.

Soft attempts don't work in monolithic populations, and even though rural america is dying, it's not dying fast enough (population proportion wise)
 

pigeon

Banned
If this is the answer that the Dems go with than we're fucked for future elections cause Racism ain't going to magically go away and we clearly gotta come at our voters with something other than "don't vote for the racist" if we want them to show up.

I agree that my conclusion today is that America is too full of white nationalists for people of color to ever live safely in it.
 

jdstorm

Banned
"I didn't go to college" doesn't mean "I am racist."

They could educate themselves. They don't. They don't need to be racist. They could say "Why do I hate a group of people just because they look different? just because they love differently?" They don't.

It's not hubris. You just want to defend bigotry and bigots because you seem to be one.

Im not defending bigotry. Im just trying to say that basing your own standards from others you decry is both hypocritical and Shitty.

They could educate themselves is just incredibly apathetic. If a person cant even be bothered to improve society for their own benefit. Why should that same person then expect others go out of their way to improve society for strangers that they have little experience with and have been taught to hate?

The answer has always been to grab control of the levers of power and give them the "live in our world or else"have the ultimatum.

Soft attempts don't work in monolithic populations, and even though rural america is dying, it's not dying fast enough (population proportion wise)

See this is a perfectly fine and good aproach because its inclusive. Just such a shame that your second sentance undermines that by hoping everyone you disagree with dies out. You are essentially argueing for the genocide of a peoplegroup/culture that you disagree with.
 
It is an answer. We already came to the table. We built it. Set it up. And no one came to the meeting but the minorities who hosted it and a minority of white people.

The fact that you keep denying something you have no knowledge or experience of is damning.

Minorities are telling you there are issues and have brought up ways to fix it and are voicing their displeasure, and you are ignoring it. That is your part in this. Good job.

And yet it's been sixty years since the civil rights act passed and look where we are.

So no, I don't believe most voters are behind it.

Not enough to care or make a difference.

What have you done to educate yourself on the topic?


I voted for Hillary Clinton, I support Black Lives Matter, I support LGBTQ rights, so I'm evidently not the person you're talking to here. I'm asking what we can do beyond that. I'm trying to play devil's advocate here. White liberals have believed this, and that's great, but we need a way to convince the moderate.
 
I mean if you want to throw up your hands thats fine.

The people genuinely saying "lets figure this shit out" are the people that recognize the difficulty of the fight and the ugliness of the process, but want to find the best way to put the next step forward in the long, hard trek that likely won't be fixed next election and perhaps even fully in our lifetimes.

Don't.

Don't you act like I'm doing nothing and that I just don't care about the process or its ugliness or whatever.

I've lived in this fucking process literally my ENTIRE life. My jaded skepticism about white moderates and middle america is formed from almost three decades on this earth of constant unending negative re-enforcement.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
Im not defending bigotry. Im just trying to say that basing your own standards from others you decry is both hypocritical and Shitty.

They could educate themselves is just incredibly apathetic. If a person cant even be bothered to improve society for their own benefit. Why should that same person then expect others go out of their way to improve society for strangers that they have little experience with and have been taught to hate?
Here you are blaming minorities for issues they didn't cause. Good job.

And as I said, minorities of all kinds started the conversation over and over and over again, and very little happened because the bigots weren't interested.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
eh... he did reach out. At a 37% likability rating, had he not lied to them you likely would have seen that 1m voter deficit grow even larger.

But yes, the rust belt is dead. The jobs are never coming back, but just like I outlined above, those voters are stuck there much the same way minorities often feel stuck in the inner cities. If the dems don't reach out to them, they'll just keep voting red because it's what they've always done.

Whats so amusing about the rust belt stuff, as a smug liberal looking down at their ignorance for a moment, is that in all reality, for many areas, their best bet for an improvement of quality of life from a jobs perspective would be to get on board with things like a green energy transition.

A major investment on a national scale to evolve our economy to more sustainable energy and become a manufacturing leader would likely spur all sorts of new industries and growth from them. All over the country.
 

marrec

Banned
I agree that my conclusion today is that America is too full of white nationalists for people of color to ever live safely in it.

Clearly the only path forward is tricking white nationalists into voting against their own self-interest.
 

Afrodium

Banned
Racism.

Done, bye.


There are people from Storfront and the KKK who supported Trump for his overt racism. There are people who live in towns that rely on coal and only Donald Trump appeared to care about them keeping their jobs, which to some voters is enough to overlook his deplorable qualities. The latter carries some prejudice and racism that makes this vote easy for them, but this voter could also easily vote Democrat (and potentially had in the past) and is fine with legislation to help minorities. Acting like every single vote for Trump came from someone in a white sheet only causes people to dig in their heels.
 

sonicmj1

Member
The opening post is a pretty narrow reading of the Letter from a Birmingham Jail.

The whole letter is about the need for non-violent protest, how it's always necessary when there is injustice, how there's no excuse for sitting by as people's God-given rights are stripped from them. That photo is a great thing to bring up when talking about any kind of protest movement. Never, ever stop protesting just because someone thinks it's inconvenient.

But the one thing it is not is an excuse to turn your back on your countrymen and shut them out.

To quote what may be my favorite paragraph of that same letter:

Martin Luther King Jr. said:
You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

The letter is an impassioned plea to demonstrate the justice of his cause to those same "white moderates", the clergymen who should be sympathizing with his cause, but demand patience because they don't like his methods. He could have told them to go fuck themselves for standing in the way of his rights with their apathy, but instead he never loses sight of the fact that deep down, they believe in the same God and the same principles.

Today, we have been trying to live in monologue rather than dialogue. That has to change.

That doesn't mean tolerating bigotry, but at least try and listen to people instead of rushing to judgment. We can't have a democracy where each half of the nation is convinced that the other half wishes to destroy them.

Protest and dialogue are compliments, not adversaries.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Clearly the only path forward is tricking white nationalists into voting against their own self-interest.

Worked for Trump.

I just hope it takes the DNC less than 4 years to realize this and prepare accordingly.
 
GAF is really falling apart.

For the record OP I do agree with you 100%.

It's funny, I've been browsing OT over 6 years now. My first time ever seeing a lot of these posters has been to celebrate a Trump victory and/or tell minorities to come together in unity behind Donald fucking Trump.

This win normalized this bullshittery on GAF for some people and that's depressing as hell.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
There are people who live in towns that rely on coal and only Donald Trump appeared to care about them keeping their jobs…
No, he lied to them.

Hillary told them the truth and introduced ways they could remain employed.

They weren't interested.
 
Im not defending bigotry. Im just trying to say that basing your own standards from others you decry is both hypocritical and Shitty.

They could educate themselves is just incredibly apathetic. If a person cant even be bothered to improve society for their own benefit. Why should that same person then expect others go out of their way to improve society for strangers that they have little experience with and have been taught to hate?

Have you had to live your entire life with your family telling you "you have to never step out of line. You have to be good. You can pass, but your bother isn't so lucky, you need to be strong and smart for him. Don't go out after dark. Don't let your hair out. Don't grow facial hair they could profile you."? And that's just surface level stuff.

No. It's not my, nor other minorities responsibility to educate those that don't give a shit about us until we beat it into their heads. That's nonsense.
 
There are people from Storfront and the KKK who supported Trump for his overt racism. There are people who live in towns that rely on coal and only Donald Trump appeared to care about them keeping their jobs, which to some voters is enough to overlook his deplorable qualities. The latter carries some prejudice and racism that makes this vote easy for them, but this voter could also easily vote Democrat (and potentially had in the past) and is fine with legislation to help minorities. Acting like every single vote for Trump came from someone in a white sheet only causes people to dig in their heels.

Nobody is saying that.

People can be implicitly racist. People can ratify racist teachings without themselves being or believing themselves to be racist.

That doesn't mean the net results of their actions aren't an increase in virulence of racism.
 

jdstorm

Banned
Here you are blaming minorities for issues they didn't cause. Good job.

And as I said, minorities of all kinds started the conversation over and over and over again, and very little happened because the bigots weren't interested.

So what happened next. Did they keep the conversation going until those bigots listened. Did they stand up for their own rights? Did they continue to treat all people with the human decency and respect that they are fighting to be treated with?
 

theecakee

Member
The point isn't that we need to appeal to racists, but that maybe we should try to understand what underlying factors caused a deplorable candidate like Donald Trump to win so that we can ensure it never happens again.

For the last year liberals have been smug as fuck laughing at the Republicans for putting forth such a ridiculous candidate that could never possibly win. We were so confident that instead of opening a dialogue with Trump supporters we told them to fuck off and made them into caricatures. Now the GOP controls the House, Senate, and Executive branch and the ramifications will last a generation. Sure, we can decide that all the people who voted for Trump are sexists/racists/misogynists and decide we never want their vote, but that path is just going to keep them controlling the government.

Did a large party of the country vote for a candidate they knew was bad for women and minorities because they thought he would make their life better? Yes. Is that terrible? Yes. However, pretending that these people are cartoon villains who voted for Trump only because of his racism and misogyny and not because they might have real issues of their own that were completely ignored by one candidate will achieve nothing and ensure that no progress is made.

We need to communicate, we need to educate, we need to work, we need to heal. Patting ourselves on the back for insulting straw men on social media and online forums had failed spectacularly.

Great post.

I'm not happy by any means, but definitely a time I've been having a lot of self-reflection on how everything happened.
 

cheezcake

Member
She won, but still didn't win hard enough, so give the actual victory to Trump.

This election should have been simple but the DNC and Clinton fucked up by going for a blowout instead of just focusing on key states. That arrogance has cost America decades worth of progressive policy progress.
 

pigeon

Banned
Alright then, nothing more to talk about then, congrats on solving it. See you all in 2020!

Oh, it isn't solved. Just identified. Most white Americans voted for a white nationalist in Tuesday. Now some other white Americans are trying to explain to us why it's our fault that white Americans keep hitting us.

Lesson learned.
 
Minorities, POC and women shouldn't accept or open up to hate crimes or being abused.
The thing is that not all Trump supporters are a basket of deplorables. We need to make a distinguishment that Trump voters are not monolithic. There are truly awful people who vote for Trump, but also many who doesn't, and who feel betrayed by Obamas Change campaign of 08 and the lack of justice as of the recession!
As Tim Carney puts it- we're dealing with low information white voters who voted for Obama in 08; https://twitter.com/TPCarney/status/796384207631159297?ref_src=twsrc^tfw Some of these people are just angry, and a combination of the toxicity of their anger and Hillarys problems made them feel like that the Democrats had abandoned them.

That is not to invoke a #NotAllTrumpSupporters. It's true that when you pick up one end of the stick you own the other, but there is a degree to being a hardcore stormfront activist, and just living in a shithole in flint michigan who is lost, confused, irrational and angry.
We need to stop with the labels. Some voters who are misguided, have intentionally been shamed away. And instead of swallowing their ego and informing themselves it has gone the opposite direction:



The Democrats can pull decent independents and moderates who voted for Trump and who are uninformed and selfish, but can be brought over. They do not have to be in the same group as stormfronters, and to give them all the same label as has been done in this election is a mistake.
Realistically can the Dems pull another Obama who can get that voter turnout needed? Some of these people are needed. And that is not to say that anyone should tolerate racism, but if we can stop shaming people who need the understanding, Dems can bolster them if they can come out and do ground work for them.

How would any of you win over the rustbelt? How do you show what Dems could do? These people need to be able find new jobs, but many of them need new careers. That's the truth. They need to find a way out, and they are the first of many. Today it's coal miners, tomorrow it's retail workers. Then Truck Drivers. Then automation will remove a lot of overhead and software will reduce the jobs needed. We need to look at the long term. It's a global disaster in the making!
 
So what happened next. Did they keep the conversation going until those bigots listened. Did they stand up for their own rights? Did they continue to treat all people with the human decency and respect that they are fighting to be treated with?

Please god don't you dare be suggesting that minorities haven't been fighting for their rights non-stop in this country since they came here.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
So what happened next. Did they keep the conversation going until those bigots listened. Did they stand up for their own rights? Did they continue to treat all people with the human decency and respect that they are fighting to be treated with?
Fuck you.

Seriously. Fuck you. This post is bullshit. I am done entertaining your bigot-enabling ass.

You have no real interest in minority issues.
 
Cross posting from another board:

Now that i've had a day to take stock and think about it. i'm more resolved than ever to fight for the causes i care about.

I believed in Hillary Clinton. I thought she was the best, most qualified person for the most difficult job in the world. I now realize that many people didn't see it that way and that's the fault of the campaign for not communicating its message and sell its candidate effectively. She pinned her hopes on the fact that Trump was unfit for office and waited for the voters to make that decision for themselves. She won that argument, only 38% of voters thought he was fit. But they voted for him anyway. That was the biggest mistake that cost her the election.

There were other errors along the way that felt minor at the time but ultimately proved to be her undoing. Not campaigning in Wisconsin until the last week of the campaign despite losing the primary. Giving moderate Republicans an out which infuriated her support on the left for zero gain. I could go on.

I am however deeply saddened by the fact that, despite her numerous faults, nearly half the country felt that a racist balloon animal with a penchant for sexually assaulting women was the best choice for the highest office in the land. Particularly among the voters in blue collar towns like Erie, PA, or Youngstown, OH. Towns that voted for Barack Obama four years ago in a time when their economic despair was greater than they are now. It's difficult for me to square away the fact that the voters wanted a change election despite Obama's 54% favorable rating. It truly is Obama's unique strength that he's able to insulate himself from the electorate's repudiation of Washington as a whole, and I highly doubt it will ever be replicated again.

It's true, not everyone who voted for Trump is racist or deplorable, and they don't want to be talked down to as such. As a pragmatist, I know that it is absolutely vital to find a message that resonates with blue collar workers, who have always been at the core of the democratic coalition. Take Nevada for example, the strong unions there was able to deliver the state to Clinton despite massive rural turnout, whereas traditional blue collar democratic bulwarks fell apart, as the unions there weakened in recent years. A coincidence, I'm sure.

However, we must be crystal clear in not dismissing the racial element here. Again and again, we see that non-white blue collar workers, when faced with the same economic angst as their white peers, threw their lot behind Clinton. We know that Clinton still ended up winning 53% of the voters who indicated that the economy was their biggest worry. We have to reach out and talk to people and provide them with specific policies to improve their future. But absolving them of the consequences of voting for Trump would be a gross injustice to the minority vote that the Democrats have taken for granted for far too long.

To say that I'm disappointed by Trump's victory over every major white cross-tab (men/women/young/old/college/no college) would be a wild understatement. Again, they're not all racists and they don't all post Pepe memes or send "Gas the kike" messages to Jewish writers, but the silence of their acquiescence to Trump's white nationalist platform was deafening and it broke my heart.

It's easy to lash out against them and blame them for the result of the election, and to a certain extent, you'd be correct, but that's not the way to build relationships and propel our nation forward. Those of us feeling aggrieved today, I feel your pain. Let this be a reminder that there's still more work to be done in the name of justice and equality.
 
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