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[A.E Suggs]

I find that pretty odd too. Considering how many posts in this thread are about false accusations or freaking out about the whole 'then all sex is rape!' straw man, it really drives home the point that people can be rape illiterate.

I wouldn't say its odd if thats the way they've been raised, you have to remember everyone doesn't have the same education and its easy to say educate yourself when said problem is not our own. I tend to do that a-lot to people but when people don't know something that you think they should know that creates a problem as well.

Also people do this even though they aren't racist because people want control. This is something we all want at one time or another for different issues. Taking away the power that one has always leads to defensiveness like some of those post with people freaking out weather its good or bad. Thats my take on this anyway I could be something completely different, but even still this is the topic to educate people on issues. I say let them say that as long as they listen and learn thats whats important here, some people have to be told more than once from different angles before they get messages.

 

[pigeon]

Wrong. Everything humans do has some kind of evolutionary origin.

As soon as you start arguing evo psych positions, I want to see the receipts. You have those papers, right?

A single testimony from the victim is enough to put someone in jail. It does happen.

I acknowledge that, but, meaning no offense, I think it's an error to categorize testimony from the victim as not being evidence. Testimony from the victim is used to convict criminals in pretty much every criminal trial*. I see what you're saying about people being worried about the absence of other evidence (although rape happens to be a crime that usually leaves obvious physical evidence as well) but I don't think I agree that rape is distinct from most other crimes in this way.

Honestly I'm not an expert in the slightest, but I've always kinda thought that one of the best way to cut down on this is hardcore targeting / enforcement against the type of situations where this behavior happens. Particularly against college campus parties with drugs / alcohol. The rate of rape and sexual assault in these situations in particular is just through the roof, and honestly I don't see education as being quite enough to help once people start getting smashed. It has to be stopped before it gets started and before something terrible happens. Does your fraternity keep having parties where women are passing out in vulnerable situations? Or being pressured to drink heavily? Well don't wait for a rape to happen, they are already putting women in dangerous positions, make 'em a dry fraternity with campus security oversight into their events.

I think this is a solid post. The key thing about education is that it's not about hypothetical guys who "accidentally rape", it's about guys who deliberately rape and claim it's accidental. That's why the goal is to identify behaviors that serial rapists engage in to blend in and make their predatory behavior less obvious.

* Well, not murder.

 

[Mumei]

Hmm, does anyone have a link to that one study that showed that college students (fratboys) think that sex without her consent is okay, and rape slightly less okay - when they are both the same thing and the only things that is different are the connotations of these terms.

I think that a lot of people are more okay with rape becaues they do not consider it to be "rape" - which has unfortunately been characterized as something that only ugly rapists do by dragging a poor white woman into an alleyway/bush and using a weapon to force her to have sex with him.

So yeah, I don't think it's unfair to call said nation "rape illiterate".

If you are talking about the Neil Malamuth UCLA studies, I posted the quote on the first page.

I remember reading on this site that there are evolutionary reasons for the social stigmas regarding men and women. I have no idea if its bullshit pseudo-science so I wonder if there was more info about it. It was basically men sleep around to spread their offspring in the most places. They try for less promiscuous partners so that they know it is their seed being spread, and not someone else's. Women on the other need to be most attractive for these men, needing to find the best partner.

Recommended reading on Evolutionary Psychology.

Indeed, the guilty secret of psychology and of behavioral economics is that their experiments and surveys are conducted almost entirely with people from Western, industrialized countries, mostly of college age, and very often students of psychology at colleges in the United States. This is particularly unfortunate for evolutionary psychologists, who are trying to find universal features of our species. American college kids, whatever their charms, are a laughable proxy for Homo sapiens. The relatively few experiments conducted in non-Western cultures suggest that the minds of American students are highly unusual in many respects, including their spatial cognition, responses to optical illusions, styles of reasoning, coöperative behavior, ideas of fairness, and risk-taking strategies. Joseph Henrich and his colleagues at the University of British Columbia concluded recently that U.S. college kids are “one of the worst subpopulations one could study” when it comes to generalizing about human psychology. Their main appeal to evolutionary psychologists is that they’re readily available. Man’s closest relatives are all long extinct; breeding experiments on humans aren’t allowed (they would take far too long, anyway); and the mental life of our ancestors left few fossils.​

The whole thing is good.

Male concern around false rape claims doesn't really stem from the likelihood of conviction, but that the simple act of being accused can be enough to ruin reputations and lives. It hardly matters of the prosecutors eventually withdraw the charge before the falsely accuse perpetrator ends up in court - the damage has already been done.

What about the likelihood of a false claim in the first place? Reliable statistics place it anywhere from sub-2% to 8% (and 8% isn't for "false" rape reports but for "unfounded" reports which includes may be true but were not able to be prosecuted).

I guess I just feel like if you are sleeping with someone, you ought to be able to trust them. If you don't trust your partner enough not to lie and say she was raped, perhaps sleeping with her isn't the best idea.

They're not talking about a woman being unconscious during sex, but someone who, by the legal definition of rape under certain jurisdictions, could qualify as been raped. If there is no victim, how can there be a perpetrator? It seems to be saying that the most important thing it to increase rape reporting, so woman should always be on the look out for times that can play the victim, even when it goes against their own views on the matter.

I think this is twisting things; men are not the only ones who have problems with rape illiteracy. The point here is that sometimes women are unaware that something that has happened to them - e.g. manipulated into having sex while drunk or high - is rape.

You are right that if there is no complainant then there is axiomatically no one to prosecute; part of educating about rape and consent includes educating women about consent as well.

I've not seen any empirical studies that show this to be the case. How many women honestly know other women who have been through the judicial system as a rape victim?

I don't personally know women who have been through the judicial system (nor am I woman, but anyway), but I'm certainly aware of it from reading the news and being aware of things, and I suspect most women are aware that they would have to discuss their rape repeatedly, go through invasive and humiliating physical examinations, have their life torn through, admit this publicly, and so on and so forth.

It is merely speculative that this causes women to subconsciously not want to place themselves in that category, however. I can see how I would find it discouraging because I can empathize with not wanting to let the whole community know I was raped, but that's about all I can say on the matter.

I see nothing that reconciles the finding of this study with the ideas behind affirmative consent. How can you confirm affirmative consent when almost half the time you'll be told no (meaning yes).

Why do you think they would say, "No" if they were actually willing to? And do you think that addressing issues of sexual shaming, and hang-ups about female sexual desire and debunking myths about male sexual aggressiveness (e.g. that men must always be the initiator) might help?

I think it's disturbing that in all rape threads the discussion centers around how to better protect men.

Quite.

It is rather nicely demonstrative.

 

[Shouta]

I also don't understand the defensiveness we also see when having conversations of this nature. If you aren't a rapist, there isn't a reason to be defensive about the subject. It's not hard to just...not rape people.

As ronito points out, the claim of rape against a man even without being convicted is enough to ruin their life in many circumstances. Even if actual false rape claims are an incredibly small part of the equation, it creates an atmosphere of fear for men. Pedophile issues cause much of the same problem. It's a miniscule fraction of the population that commits such crimes but it's caused an enormous shift in the mentality of people when they see children and men. I'm not sure it's been properly studied but in a laymen's experience, men have to fear their own interactions in many situations now.

I agree that if we want to solve the problem, we need to educate men and focus on the issues women face in rape cases. However, other issues like situational ambiguity and the possible societal ramifications for men as we continue to better the issue are not things we can ignore. It's still a part of the equation even if it's not the core issue.

Besides, you don't have to be a rapist to be defensive about it. That's a silly sentiment. It's like having to be a rape victim to be concerned with rape related issues. It's not just about the act itself but the ripples it sends out and how it affects our society. The societal view of men is something that men should be concerned about just like how it should be for women. It's more than enough reason for them to speak up.

 

[kevm3]

nicely demonstrative of what?

that neogaf men are undercover rapists?

 

[User 100115]

I've not seen any empirical studies that show this to be the case. How many women honestly know other women who have been through the judicial system as a rape victim?

RE: Why Yes Mean Yes is more effective than No Means No



I see nothing that reconciles the finding of this study with the ideas behind affirmative consent. How can you confirm affirmative consent when almost half the time you'll be told no (meaning yes).

I will say right now, that yes, I am very personally acquainted with what it's like to go through the process as a rape victim, and yes, it fucking sucks.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Male concern around false rape claims doesn't really stem from the likelihood of conviction, but that the simple act of being accused can be enough to ruin reputations and lives. It hardly matters of the prosecutors eventually withdraw the charge before the falsely accuse perpetrator ends up in court - the damage has already been done.

The bit you qouted said that prosecutors already screen rape cases. No damages are done if they don't file charges because they find the accusation dubious or the case weak.

 

[pigeon]

nicely demonstrative of what?

that neogaf men are undercover rapists?

Is this seriously what you think people are saying?

The problem with rape culture is that people have been miseducated to believe that attacks on rape are attacks on them and their "way of life." The defensiveness demonstrates that problem pretty effectively. Why should anybody be having negative reactions to an article about how to prevent rape? The answer is that people are interpreting it as somehow being about them. Nobody is saying it is! Nobody is suggesting that anybody on NeoGAF is a rapist. That's exactly why the reactions are so surprising.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I think it's disturbing that in all rape threads the discussion centers around how to better protect men.

I think it's disturbing that we rape the meaning of terms like illiteracy and survivor so that people can use them in these discussions.

Don't get me wrong, rape isn't a laughing matter, but neither is death and illteracy, and it just feels trivialized when we attach these terms to things that they dont really apply to.

rape has its own culture and terms, no need to fish for other terms and apply them.

That said, i think men need to be protected from rapist as much as women do.

 

[Eidan]

nicely demonstrative of what?

that neogaf men are undercover rapists?

I would say that it demonstrates what a lot of people consider a priority on the issue. In this case, that protecting men from false rape accusations (a statistically rare event) is more important than actually preventing rape.

 

[Mumei]

As ronito points out, the claim of rape against a man even without being convicted is enough to ruin their life in many circumstances. Even if actual false rape claims are an incredibly small part of the equation, it creates an atmosphere of fear for men. Pedophile issues cause much of the same problem. It's a minuscule fraction of the population that commits such crimes but it's caused an enormous shift in the mentality of people when they see children and men. I'm not sure it's been properly studied but in a laymen's experience, men have to fear their own interactions in many situations now.

I think this is the issue. False rape allegations are a very, very rare (on par with or lower than false reporting for other serious crimes). I do agree that there could be an atmosphere of fear, but the dismissiveness is precisely because the real danger from false rape reporting is very low.

Part of the issue I have is that I am aware that a) false rape reporting is extremely rare, b) parts of the men's rights movement argue that false rape reporting is endemic and do all they can do cast doubt on victim testimony, c) the doubts raised by b) have become a part of our cultural understanding of rape - that "false rape" is a significant part of it. I feel like the dismissiveness is a form of pushback against that sort of agenda that people who are probably unaware of the origins are pushing.

I think we have more of a problem with people believing that false rape is a problem and related myths because it causes men to be unsupportive about issues of reporting (they immediately think of false reports) and it causes average people and, worse, police to behave more hostilely and skeptically towards claims of rape than they do towards other claims of crimes. I can certainly be empathetic towards the notion that there men believe that this is an endemic problem, but I'm not sure where they would like me to go once we get to, "Okay, well, this might happen but it is extremely rare."

nicely demonstrative of what?

that neogaf men are undercover rapists?

Y'all are paranoid, I swear.

No, of an unwillingness to talk about issues of rape as they effect women and of illiteracy with the basic facts of rape (e.g. that false rape reporting is vanishingly small).

 

[ronito]

I think this is the issue. False rape allegations are a very, very rare (on par with or lower than false reporting for other serious crimes). I do agree that there could be an atmosphere of fear, but the dismissiveness is precisely because the real danger from false rape reporting is very low.

Part of the issue I have is that I am aware that a) false rape reporting is extremely rare, b) parts of the men's rights movement argue that false rape reporting is endemic and do all they can do cast doubt on victim testimony, c) the doubts raised by b) have become a part of our cultural understanding of rape - that "false rape" is a significant part of it. I feel like the dismissiveness is a form of pushback against that sort of agenda that people who are probably unaware of the origins are pushing.

I think we have more of a problem with people believing that false rape is a problem and related myths because it causes men to be unsupportive about issues of reporting (they immediately think of false reports) and it causes average people and, worse, police to behave more hostilely and skeptically towards claims of rape than they do towards other claims of crimes. I can certainly be empathetic towards the notion that there men believe that this is an endemic problem, but I'm not sure where they would like me to go once we get to, "Okay, well, this might happen but it is extremely rare."

Well I believe it.

And you wrong people that don't agree with you. I'm not dismissive. You can be concerned about false claims and still be concerned about rape.

I swear whenever I bring up about my friend and how his entire life was cratered people are like "WHY ARE YOU ON THE RAPISTS SIDE?!!"

 

[Sheik]

I think it's disturbing that in all rape threads the discussion centers around how to better protect men.

Which is why I don't have the patience, the maturity, or the emotional detachment to be be able to engage in civil discourse regarding rape and rape culture. Ugh.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

Enthusiastic consent is easy.

Every time some guy says it isn't makes me think they believe in an adversarial relationship between the sexes: sex is something men want and women have, and we men have to seduce, con, trick, or force it out of them.

That said, i think men need to be protected from rapist as much as women do.

In the sense that no one should be raped, sure, I don't think the statistics show that as much effort needs to be spent protecting men. Also, most men are more concerned about being falsely accused of rape than being raped, see this thread as evidence.

As for 'protecting', I think our efforts are better spent on getting people to stop raping. If only we had a thread that was ostensibly about doing that in our society.

Edit:

I swear whenever I bring up about my friend and how his entire life was cratered people are like "WHY ARE YOU ON THE RAPISTS SIDE?!!"

Because anecdotes aren't data. It's an awful story, and it's a compelling one. It takes away from the discussion of prevention of real rape.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Well I believe it.

And you wrong people that don't agree with you. I'm not dismissive. You can be concerned about false claims and still be concerned about rape.

I swear whenever I bring up about my friend and how his entire life was cratered people are like "WHY ARE YOU ON THE RAPISTS SIDE?!!"

I believe it too.

I think the number of false rape reports is a lot higher, and the conviction of falsely accused rapists is also a lot higher, leading to a set of skewed data which shows that it's lower then what it should be.

I'm not on the side of the rapists, I'm also not on the side of the compulsive liars.

In the sense that no one should be raped, sure, I don't think the statistics show that as much effort needs to be spent protecting men. Also, most men are more concerned about being falsely accused of rape than being raped, see this thread as evidence.

As for 'protecting', I think our efforts are better spent on getting people to stop raping. If only we had a thread that was ostensibly about doing that in our society.

men are less likely to report being raped by a women, and men are less likely to get a women convicted. Much like physically abusive relationships and domestic disturbances. I lived in a household where my mom was an alcoholic terror, and when we called the police the blame seem to be weighted equally on both my parents when it was clearly the fault of my mother. This is societal, just like the issue of rape for men. How often are both men and women put in a non consenting situation of sex, where the women report it as rape even though it's just as possible for the man to do the same thing? and how often is the court going to take the man side on the issue?

 

[kevm3]

Or maybe men are getting TIRED of being treated like we're some kind of sexual savages that constantly need to be 'educated' lest we let our wily nature get the best of us and get to preying on the women. Maybe we need to start educating women on how to avoid committing statutory rape with teenage boys in the school system since we have had so many stories come out on television about all of these teachers sleeping with students.

You know the most underreported kind of rape? MALE RAPE. And never do you hear a peep of that. Where are the campaigns and push for that? You know what would happen if a man reported he got drunk and that a female took advantage of him? He would get laughed out of court. Remember the story about the Russian woman who subdued her robber, put him in the back of her shop and raped her for three days? What were the responses to that? Awesome! Haha, awesome fantasy!

Why are males the only one that need to be 'educated'? Why aren't males ever called forth to report their rape?

Men are concerned about protection from false rape allegations because they are DEVASTATING to the lives of men and have actually been used by tools as women against men such as in this instance:

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

You know the most underreported kind of rape? MALE RAPE. And never do you hear a peep of that. Where are the campaigns and push for that?

If we'd stop blaming the victim and treating victims so horribly, maybe more men would come forward.

You know what would happen if a man reported he got drunk and that a female took advantage of him? He would get laughed out of court.

Female? I would be very surprised if most of the cases of men being raped weren't committed by other men.

 

[ronito]

Because anecdotes aren't data. It's an awful story, and it's a compelling one. It takes away from the discussion of prevention of real rape.

Yeah that's nice.

But people's experience drives their views and actions.

I don't think that you'd go to my friend and be like "You need to stop being on the rapists' side and being dismissive. It's too bad what happened to you. But eh, you're an outlier."

Everyone's just an "anecdote" with a big enough sample size.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Or maybe men are getting TIRED of being treated like we're some kind of sexual savages that constantly need to be 'educated' lest we let our wily nature get the best of us and get to preying on the women.

You're saying this on a well-moderated forum where we still had a wealth of bannings in a single thread because of the belief that women wearing revealing clothing were basically tempting men to be creeps. Actions speak louder than words.

Maybe we need to start educating women on how to avoid committing statutory rape with teenage boys in the school system since we have had so many stories come out on television about all of these teachers sleeping with students.

Do you have statistics on these female statutory rape vs male statutory rape stories?

You know the most underreported kind of rape? MALE RAPE. And never do you hear a peep of that. Where are the campaigns and push for that? You know what would happen if a man reported he got drunk and that a female took advantage of him? He would get laughed out of court. Remember the story about the Russian woman who subdued her robber, put him in the back of her shop and raped her for three days? What were the responses to that? Awesome! Haha, awesome fantasy!

Why are males the only one that need to be 'educated'? Why aren't males ever called forth to report their rape?

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying overall, but you do realize that the bolded type of responses are exactly the kind of mindsets caused by rape illiteracy/lack of rape education/rape culture, right?

You're clearly angry. I don't think you understand that male rape victims being "laughed out of court" isn't caused by lack of education specifically for women on rape, but a complete misunderstanding of rape, in general.

Anecdotes are fun. Perhaps you've heard of this site. Not hard to find casual jokes about rape in there.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

I don't think that you'd go to my friend and be like "You need to stop being on the rapists' side and being dismissive. It's too bad what happened to you. But eh, you're an outlier."

I wouldn't say it to your friend, I've got tremendous sympathy for what he went through. I'm saying that people (men, mostly) latch onto stories like this, greatly overstating the occurrence of false-rape accusations, and shifting the discussion away from the larger issue of rape.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

You're saying this on a well-moderated forum where we still had a wealth of bannings in a single thread because of the belief that women wearing revealing clothing were basically tempting men to be creeps. Actions speak louder than words.



Do you have statistics on these female statutory rape vs male statutory rape stories?



I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying overall, but you do realize that the bolded type of responses are exactly the kind of mindsets caused by rape illiteracy/lack of rape education/rape culture, right?

You're clearly angry. I don't think you understand that male rape victims being "laughed out of court" isn't caused by lack of education specifically for women on rape, but a complete misunderstanding of rape, in general.



Anecdotes are fun. Perhaps you've heard of this site.

I actually think it's because an abuse of the term rape being used by women, particularly feminists. So... blame feminists.

Also, the term rape is derrived from theft. People shouldn't even use rape, they should use sexual assult when discussing the matter at hand.

 

[ronito]

I'm saying that people (men, mostly) latch onto stories like this, greatly overstating the occurrence of false-rape accusations, and shifting the discussion away from the larger issue of rape.

Perhaps, but I can't be the only one that finds these kinds of arguments ironic when discussing people's "dismissive attitudes."

 

[Anton Sugar]

I actually think it's because an abuse of the term rape being used by women.

Common reasons male rape isn't treated seriously:

-The male ejaculated and therefore "wanted it"
-Males are perceived as always wanting sex
-Male physicality would easily allow them to overpower a woman
-It's "not manly"

It has little to do with false rape accusations from women.

EDIT:

I actually think it's because an abuse of the term rape being used by women, particularly feminists. So... blame feminists.

Also, the term rape is derrived from theft. People shouldn't even use rape, they should use sexual assult when discussing the matter at hand.

Now I have no idea what you're talking about. Why are feminists to blame? And what does the derivative origin of the term "rape" have to do with anything?

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Women DO have sexual freedom. They can sleep with any man they want to...

This is untrue. But since you asked, yes sexual freedom includes freedom from social censure for consenting acts between adults.

 

[Mumei]

Well I believe it.

And you wrong people that don't agree with you. I'm not dismissive. You can be concerned about false claims and still be concerned about rape.

I swear whenever I bring up about my friend and how his entire life was cratered people are like "WHY ARE YOU ON THE RAPISTS SIDE?!!"

I don't get what you are talking about. I was not referring to you being dismissive; I was referring to people like, say, myself or Fiction being dismissive and explaining why that happens.

Maybe you could rephrase or expand on your thoughts or give me CliffNotes or something? If your only point is, "I think false rape allegations are a problem because it happened to my friend", well sure. I can accept that. When I say it isn't a problem, I don't mean that it isn't a problem when it happens, I just mean that it isn't a broad societal issue or an epidemic or something that is peculiarly problematic. If you don't think it is a problem in that respect, I don't really think we disagree on that.

 

[ronito]

I don't get what you are talking about. I was not referring to you being dismissive; I was referring to people like, say, myself or Fiction being dismissive and explaining why that happens.

Maybe you could rephrase or expand on your thoughts or give me CliffNotes or something? If your only point is, "I think false rape allegations are a problem because it happened to my friend", well sure. I can accept that. When I say it isn't a problem, I don't mean that it isn't a problem when it happens, I just mean that it isn't a broad societal issue or an epidemic or something that is peculiarly problematic. If you don't think it is a problem in that respect, I don't really think we disagree on that.

Ah I think we have a misunderstanding then. Carry on good fellows. Carry on.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Perhaps, but I can't be the only one that finds these kinds of arguments ironic when discussing people's "dismissive attitudes."

It's quite reasonable when there's been more discussion about false rape accusations than about the actual topic discussed in the OP.

 

[Sheik]

I actually think it's because an abuse of the term rape being used by women, particularly feminists. So... blame feminists.

Also, the term rape is derrived from theft. People shouldn't even use rape, they should use sexual assult when discussing the matter at hand.

What's wrong with the term rape? Why is sexual assault more appropriate? They are actually different by definition. Sexual assault can mean any unwanted sexual act, from a hand on a breast to forced intercourse. It is far more innocuous and condescending than the term rape.

Feminists believe in equality. Period. For all minorities and all peoples. You shouldn't judge an entire group of people based on radicals. If you're even doing that..? Not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I'm not exactly sure where to draw the line, or how to deal with the evidentiary concerns, which seem to me to almost be an insoluble problem: the vast majority of rapes occur in private between people who know each other, so getting corroborating evidence evidence is exceedingly difficult (requiring proof of resistance is one such way courts tried to require corroborating evidence in the past, but that has obvious problems, namely that resistance to a rape invites retaliation, and many opt not to take the risk). In such a world, I don't know whether the status quo of allowing people to rape with impunity in those circumstances is worse than the reverse where any accusation even without corroborating evidence is enough to get someone locked up.

I do wish many of my gender tried to see things through the opposite perspective. Consider the opposite situation to the one we have today, where an accusation of rape is sufficient to convict; the accuser always wins the he-said, she-said battle. You need a very high level of trust before you spend any time in private with a woman, because if she wants to, she can get you locked up. You must constantly evaluate your potential partners for trustworthiness, because not only are you putting your emotions on the line when you have sex, you are giving the person you choose to be intimate with the power to hurt you deeply on a social and psychological level. If you choose unwisely, people are likely to say that you deserved it; what were you thinking, going to that party and getting drunk?

If this seems like a terrible world, it is - and it's pretty close to the one women have to navigate under current rape law.

Women are still as picky and unwilling to have casual sex as ever. Women are simply not made to fuck around as much as men are.
20% of gay men has had over 1000 sex partners, 2% of all lesbian women has had over 100 and 0% have had over 1000.

Do you have a citation for this?

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I think this is a solid post. The key thing about education is that it's not about hypothetical guys who "accidentally rape", it's about guys who deliberately rape and claim it's accidental.

I disagree. Rape obviously requires intentionality for it to be a crime in the legal sense, but I think there's a lot partners of both genders can do to prevent so-called "accidental rapes" from occurring.

As an illustration, I was really nervous my first time. I was obviously so, even to the point of shaking, but I didn't have the courage or the strength to say, "no." He picked up on my obvious signals and stopped of his own accord. Obviously if he had gone ahead, that wouldn't have been rape and if he had gone ahead without noticing my nervousness that wouldn't even be morally blameworthy. But because he had his wits about him and because he valued my well-being over getting his rocks off, I was spared a traumatic experience that probably would have ended the relationship. And while it was pretty obvious in my case, there are lesser signals that people can pick up on when sex starts to go downhill or when consent is ambiguous to spare both partners some pain, and I think teaching people about that sort of thing is an important and neglected goal of anti-rape activists.

I guess I just feel like if you are sleeping with someone, you ought to be able to trust them. If you don't trust your partner enough not to lie and say she was raped, perhaps sleeping with her isn't the best idea.

C'mon, Mumei, this is victim blaming, the inverse of the "don't get alone in private with people who might be rapists." Victims of false accusations didn't merit it anymorethan rape victims did.

 

[Mumei]

C'mon, Mumei, this is victim blaming, the inverse of the "don't get alone in private with people who might be rapists." Victims of false accusations didn't merit it anymorethan rape victims did.

And to think, I was so happy with your last post!

When I made the post, I actually did think for a moment about it being read in that way. I was not intending to say, "If you sleep with someone and s/he lies the next day and says it was rape, it is your fault; you should have known better." I meant that if beforehand you don't trust your partner, perhaps you should rethink things. I would not argue that a victim of a false accusation is ever at fault, though, even if s/he ignores that little voice. I meant it as a suggestion if someone really did feel that mistrustful towards one's partners, not as a litmus test for deciding whether someone got my sympathy in the event that it happened.

Does that help, or am I digging this hole deeper with you?

 

[Devolution]

The irony in some of the "men get raped too" and attacks against feminism is that feminists have been fighting to expand rape definitions for years and for prison reform due to the high prevalence of rape among men and the normalizing effects it has on the idea of rape in general. Never ceases to amaze me how much feminism gets shit on even while it's trying to equalize stuff across the board.

 

[User 100115]

The irony in some of the "men get raped too" and attacks against feminism is that feminists have been fighting to expand rape definitions for years and for prison reform due to the high prevalence of rape among men and the normalizing effects it has on the idea of rape in general. Never ceases to amaze me how much feminism gets shit on even while it's trying to equalize stuff across the board.

So much this. Yet it seems every thread, this one as an example, turns from a discussion about education and such into 'men are raped to!' We know that. We are fighting against it as much as we fight against women being raped.

 

[Orayn]

The irony in some of the "men get raped too" and attacks against feminism is that feminists have been fighting to expand rape definitions for years and for prison reform due to the high prevalence of rape among men and the normalizing effects it has on the idea of rape in general. Never ceases to amaze me how much feminism gets shit on even while it's trying to equalize stuff across the board.

Most of the backlash I see on GAF and elsewhere is directed at incredibly convenient straw feminists, perceived inequality in how feminists approach equality itself, or the name of all things. (WHY AREN'T THEY CALLED EQUALISTS?!??!?!?!?!?)

Needless to say, some people are more than a little off base with their criticism.

 

[Devolution]

So much this. Yet it seems every thread, this one as an example, turns from a discussion about education and such into 'men are raped to!' We know that. We are fighting against it as much as we fight against women being raped.

Yes. Feminists fight against all forms of rape. They aren't somehow paradoxically in favor of prison rape or male rape and yet it comes up every time.

Most of the backlash I see on GAF and elsewhere is directed at incredibly convenient straw feminists, perceived inequality in how feminists approach equality itself, or the name of all things. (WHY AREN'T THEY CALLED EQUALISTS?!??!?!?!?!?)

Needless to say, some people are more than a little off base with their criticism.

The other irony is in fighting for women/the feminine to be on par with the masculine a lot of issues men face in terms of "not being masculine enough" will also be improved because it all centers around women/feminine being inferior and weak. All men who want to see the standards men are measured by change should be feminists really.

 

[Kenka]

It's horribly disgusting, I am literally having tears in my eyes, how can you be that oblivious of a tragedy of proportions so tremendous that it can shatter the mind, the trust you have in other and leaves you most vulnerable?

Just reading these lines left me breathless. If you have endured sexual abuse in your life, then you know it just leaves you in a catatonic state of confusion, leaving you grasping air as if it as the last piece of consistency in a world gone mad around you. And the pain?


AND THE PAIN?? Well, I guess when you are raised to wave off someone else's despair because it's comfortable to you, you just can't imagine it. You may even feed your ego with it. And that's the whole problem with repressing other's distress. It is totally inhuman.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Or maybe men are getting TIRED of being treated like we're some kind of sexual savages that constantly need to be 'educated' lest we let our wily nature get the best of us and get to preying on the women.

Just want to point out from the article:

If you’re married, you’ve contractually agreed to be available for sex whether or not you want to. If you’re a woman of color, you must be a liar. If you don’t have as much money as your attacker, you’re just looking for a payday. If you’re in college, you shouldn’t want to ruin your poor young rapist’s life. If you’re a sex worker, it wasn’t rape it was just “theft of services.” If you said yes at first but changed your mind, tough luck. If you’ve had sex before, you must say yes to everyone. If you were drinking you should have known better. If you were wearing a short skirt what did you expect?

This kind of thinking isn't isolated to men. Women hold these views as well, this effort is to change things in the culture, not to reprimand men.

 

[GungHo]

A scientist mentions this exact figure. Forgot his name, but he's an actual scientist from an american university.

Actual scientists from actual universities are as capable of generating actual bullshit as everyone else in the world.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Well, here’s the beauty of it. It isn’t, because people can always bargain around the law in private arrangements, and law provides a background rule. The person initiating has the obligation to secure consent. In the presence of enthusiastic participation, that person may be so clear on the existence of consent that they don’t need a verbal confirmation — but they have to be willing to assume the risk of error. The non-initiator, if they are for example a survivor who freezes, faces serious consequences from a mistake, and the initiator faces serious consequences from a mistake theoretically (but not actually because there are no convictions in these situations). But the initiator is more able to avoid the mistake by checking for affirmative consent. As I recall, “stop if your partner goes limp” was a rule of Fight Club. If a bunch of guys fighting in a basement can observe that, we can expect it between sex partners, I should think.

If a bunch of dudes duking it out understand the concept of consent, surely a frat boys can be taught the same?

Loved this bit.

 

[CLEEK]

I guess I just feel like if you are sleeping with someone, you ought to be able to trust them. If you don't trust your partner enough not to lie and say she was raped, perhaps sleeping with her isn't the best idea.

While I'm all for common sense approach to my own sexual relations, the idea that the victims should have been more careful and are at some level at fault is thoroughly rejected amongst more progressively minded folks when it comes to rape victims. What should it not be the same for falsely accused men too?

The flip side to your comment that the same could be said for not getting raped. If you don't trust a person enough to not rape you, maybe you shouldn't put yourself in a position where they can. That view in undoubtedly victim blaming, even if it is common sense and basic self preservation.

The bit you qouted said that prosecutors already screen rape cases. No damages are done if they don't file charges because they find the accusation dubious or the case weak.

Nonsense. You don't need a criminal conviction against your name for your reputation or life to be ruined. The the prevalence of slander/libel laws. It could be as simple as someone making a false rape claim on Facebook - once made, the damage can be next to impossible to undo.

 

[Shouta]

I think this is the issue. False rape allegations are a very, very rare (on par with or lower than false reporting for other serious crimes). I do agree that there could be an atmosphere of fear, but the dismissiveness is precisely because the real danger from false rape reporting is very low.

Even with false charges being a small portion of the ones reported, it doesn't change the fact that men feel uneasy that it exists. Getting caught up in a random shooting or getting your house robbed or your car getting stolen is an incredibly tiny possibility but it doesn't stop people from putting themselves at alert, preparing for that possibility. It makes people feel safer. When the possibility hangs over your head, no matter how likely it is, you want to prepare yourself.

That atmosphere of fear isn't just a matter of being falsely accused to the police. It's about the view and mentality outside of that as well. As I pointed out in my prior post, men that are pedophiles are a fraction of the general population but because of the way it's viewed by people, men have become more afraid. The situation of children playing with a grown man has gone from that to a possible pedophile preying on them even when it doesn't look like it. It's something that good men are scared of in our day and age. Their normal or supportive behavior is seen in a negative light. It's a helluva scary thing.

For men that react in these threads, correct me if I'm wrong guys, the fear is that if this isn't addressed as a part of making sure men are more educated about consent, helping women to be more forward about rape reports, and making sure it's properly handled by the justice system, it might cause the view of men to worsen and further developing that scary image.

Part of the issue I have is that I am aware that a) false rape reporting is extremely rare, b) parts of the men's rights movement argue that false rape reporting is endemic and do all they can do cast doubt on victim testimony, c) the doubts raised by b) have become a part of our cultural understanding of rape - that "false rape" is a significant part of it. I feel like the dismissiveness is a form of pushback against that sort of agenda that people who are probably unaware of the origins are pushing.

You're certainly right and clearing up those myths is part of proper education.

But being dismissive of the argument that lays beyond that misinformation only serves to put men in a more adversarial stance. A dismissive attitude and the focus of discussion being entirely on what men do to women makes it look like men are being attacked. Discussing it from the men committing it to women viewpoint is perfectly valid (as it makes up the majority of cases), it's the reality. But if the valid concerns are brushed off, no matter how tiny they may be compared to the bigger problem, then what's the point of actual discussion? Men feel like this issue isn't about them, just about women because of the way it's conveyed.

Shoot, even saying "educating" men is loaded, hence kevm3's reaction.

I think we have more of a problem with people believing that false rape is a problem and related myths because it causes men to be unsupportive about issues of reporting (they immediately think of false reports) and it causes average people and, worse, police to behave more hostilely and skeptically towards claims of rape than they do towards other claims of crimes. I can certainly be empathetic towards the notion that there men believe that this is an endemic problem, but I'm not sure where they would like me to go once we get to, "Okay, well, this might happen but it is extremely rare."

Asking them what scares them about it and then discussing that in the broader sense might be a start.

Rape is an all-encompassing issue. It affects men and it affects women. It affects women more but that shouldn't mean that men and the issues pertaining to what occurs to them should be passed up for later.

You said it yourself that there is more of a issue with men believing that false rapes are a problem. Why is that? I think that this issue is poorly understand from the male perspective, or at least, I haven't run into literature that wasn't biased in some form. Getting to the heart of that problem and figuring out would help in the long run.

 

[CLEEK]

Most of the backlash I see on GAF and elsewhere is directed at incredibly convenient straw feminists, perceived inequality in how feminists approach equality itself, or the name of all things. (WHY AREN'T THEY CALLED EQUALISTS?!??!?!?!?!?).

The obvious point it, the Feminist movement is a broad church. There isn't a single stance on any issue.

At one end of the spectrum, you have moderate 'Third Wave' feminism, which is effectively just egalitarianism and wanting equality for all genders, races etc. At the other, you still have the all-men-are-rapist fundamentalists.

My personal idealogical sits well within that of political egalitarianism, so I am pretty much a third wave feminism. Except I will never identify as a feminist, due to the more extreme parts of the movement. As for WHY AREN'T THEY CALLED EQUALISTS, that is a very important point.

With all ideologies, the moderates enable and reinforce the extremists. For example, anyone who self identifies with being a Republican or a Catholic by default supports the extreme views within their chosen ideology, whether they personally hold those views or not. The most effective voice against extremist is that of moderates within the same movement. But you get comments like yours that that just defensive for the whole spectrum and don't address the real concerns with a subset of bigots within the movement.

You can't state that all feminists are moderate and that the old view of feminist as man hating is a straw man. It doesn't take much looking on the web to find plenty of blogs and article written by hard-liner feminists. Even just looking at the main feminist sub-reddits, there are plenty of comments that make me wince in their bigotry. While the fire and brimstone feminists might be in the minority, they still exist, so non-feminists have every right to question the motives - equality, or gender bias - of anyone who uses the label feminist.

 

[Devolution]

The obvious point it, the Feminist movement is a broad church. There isn't a single stance on any issue.

On one end of the spectrum, you have moderate 'Third Wave' feminism, which is effectively just egalitarianism. At the other, you still have the all-men-are-rapist fundamentalists.

My personal idealogical sits well within that of political egalitarianism, so I am pretty much a third wave feminism. Except I will never identify as a feminist, due to the more extreme parts of the movement. As for WHY AREN'T THEY CALLED EQUALISTS, that is a very important point.

With all ideologies, the moderates enable and reinforce the extremists. For example, anyone who self identifies with being a Republican or a Catholic by default supports the extreme views within their chosen ideology, whether they personally hold those views or not.

You can't state that all feminists are moderate and that the old view of feminist as man hating is a straw man. It doesn't take much looking on the web to find plenty of blogs and article written by hard-liner feminists. Even just looking at the main feminist sub-reddits, there are plenty of comments that make me wince in their bigotry. While the fire and brimstone feminists might be in the minority, they still exist, so non-feminists have every right to question the motives - equality, or gender bias - of anyone who uses the label feminist.

Want to make it easier to get sex or obtain a one night stand? Want to avoid becoming a baby daddy due to increasingly available contraception and abortion? Want to be able to like what you want and show emotion without being called a faggot or girly?

Those are all end goals for feminists.

 

[CLEEK]

Want to make it easier to get sex or obtain a one night stand? Want to avoid becoming a baby daddy due to increasingly available contraception and abortion? Want to be able to like what you want and show emotion without being called a faggot or girly?

Those are all end goals for [some] feminists.

FTFY

They are also the goals of [some] non-feminists and [some] anti-feminists.

As I said, and as you blatently ignored, there is no such thing as a single feminist view on any issue, whether it is abortion, rape, cultural views on gender roles or anything else. Just this week I saw an article on Reddit where some feminist blogger made the claim that 100% of men are rapists, due to her insane definition of rape. While she is as representatives of the entire Feminist movement as the Westboro Baptist Church is on all Christians, these extreme views do still exist.

 

[Devolution]

FTFY

They are also the goals of [some] non-feminists and [some] anti-feminists.

As I said, and as you latently ignored, there is no such thing as a single feminist view on any issue, whether it is abortion, rape, cultural views on gender roles or anything else.

Anti-feminists don't really support the end goals I mentioned.

 

[CLEEK]

Anti-feminists don't really support the end goals I mentioned.

Again, there is no such thing as a single, unified anti-feminist movement. There are plenty of high profile women writers who voice anti-feminist views on some subjects, but they themselves still identify as feminist.

You can't say all self identified Republicans are against abortion or gun control, even if the majority are.

 

[Devolution]

Again, there is no such thing as a single, unified anti-feminist movement. There are plenty of high profile women writers who voice anti-feminist views on some subjects, but they themselves still identify as feminist.

You're just trying to dodge the label. If you're for the end goals I mentioned you basically believe in basic feminist ideology. Full stop.

 

[CLEEK]

You're just trying to dodge the label. If you're for the end goals I mentioned you basically believe in basic feminist ideology. Full stop.

Nonsense. When you refer to 'Basic' feminist ideology, you're referring to moderate feminist ideology. Competing ideologies can have overlapping views at the more moderate end of their respective spectrums. That doesn't mean that you follow another ideology, just because a subset of its views overlap to yours.

Feminism doesn't have exclusive ownership of the views you've stated.

 

[TUROK]

OK, so now all I was really asking in the first place is, do you still accept that ratio when it comes to rape? Do you begrudgingly accept that it is better for 10 guilty rapists to go free than for 1 innocent defendant to be falsely convicted of rape?

(I'd actually be interested to hear an answer for this from other people, not just Mr. Turok. Do people who think societal views on rape need to change also think the law should view rape differently from other crimes?)

Hell of a loaded question, but sure.

Props to Shouta for a ridiculously well thought-out post.

 

[Devolution]

Nonsense. When you refer to 'Basic' feminist ideology, you're referring to moderate feminist ideology. Competing ideologies can have overlapping views at the more moderate end of their respective spectrums. That doesn't mean that you follow another ideology, just because a subset of its views overlap to yours.

Feminism doesn't have exclusive ownership of the views you've stated.

It's the end goals for feminism in general. Where it breaks down or gets more broad is in how these goals are met. Anti-feminists don't like those ideas period. If those are not end goals for feminism, then what do anti-feminists/misogynists believe?