This ended up far longer than I expected, which is odd because I think that Shouta and I are mostly in agreement on the issues.
Even with false charges being a small portion of the ones reported, it doesn't change the fact that men feel uneasy that it exists. Getting caught up in a random shooting or getting your house robbed or your car getting stolen is an incredibly tiny possibility but it doesn't stop people from putting themselves at alert, preparing for that possibility. It makes people feel safer. When the possibility hangs over your head, no matter how likely it is, you want to prepare yourself.
That atmosphere of fear isn't just a matter of being falsely accused to the police. It's about the view and mentality outside of that as well. As I pointed out in my prior post, men that are pedophiles are a fraction of the general population but because of the way it's viewed by people, men have become more afraid. The situation of children playing with a grown man has gone from that to a possible pedophile preying on them even when it doesn't look like it. It's something that good men are scared of in our day and age. Their normal or supportive behavior is seen in a negative light. It's a helluva scary thing.
For men that react in these threads, correct me if I'm wrong guys, the fear is that if this isn't addressed as a part of making sure men are more educated about consent, helping women to be more forward about rape reports, and making sure it's properly handled by the justice system, it might cause the view of men to worsen and further developing that scary image.
I don't think what you say here is representative of views that they have been expressed in the past. That is to say, in years of having these discussions, I have never seen someone make a connection between paranoia about pedophilia and men feeling uncomfortable with behaving affectionately towards their own children in public, let alone behaving protectively towards other peoples' children, and a concern that somehow that furthering education on consent and encouraging reporting of rape and making sure it is properly handled causes fears about false rape allegations (Wouldn't making sure cases are handled properly help? Wouldn't dealing with issues of shame and double-standards about female sexuality help to deal with one motive for false rape allegations; fear of social censure for having sex? I feel like the very concerns you are talking about are addressed in the agenda you say worries them.) or causes fears about a worsening image of men. And on its own terms, I think that the pedophilia comparison is interesting, but I don't think there is any potential for perceptions of men vis-a-vis sexual assault to become akin to those of men vis-a-vis pedophilia.
Instead what I see in these conversations is a
presupposition that there are a lot of false rape allegations, a presumption that we are suggesting that men should be locked up on a woman's say-so alone, and an unspoken presupposition that women are untrustworthy and are just waiting to lie about consensual sex and call it rape the next day. By addressing those myths with facts, we
are addressing these issues, even if we aren't taking them seriously as concerns.
You're certainly right and clearing up those myths is part of proper education.
But being dismissive of the argument that lays beyond that misinformation only serves to put men in a more adversarial stance.
I think I should clarify what I meant by "dismissive." I do not mean that their concerns are summarily dismissed without being not addressed. I think that their concerns are addressed and addressed repeatedly over multiple topics - it is very rare that someone brings a new concern to the table. I am envisioning something like the following:
Person 1: "I'm worried about false rape allegations; there's nothing to stop a woman from just saying he raped her and ruining his life!"
Person 2: "There are hardly any false rape allegations, there are already laws for false reporting of crimes, and it is unlikely in the extreme that a he-said-she-said without any physical evidence of a crime is going to result in a conviction. False rape allegations are terrible when they happen, but they are not an endemic problem in the justice system and we don't require special or extraordinary measures to deal with the problem, and insisting that they are a bigger problem than they are can actually be damaging to perceptions of rape victim testimony, particularly if we believe myths about how rape victims "should" look, sound, or behave."
I suppose that conversation is a bit curtly dismissive but I also think that it addresses the concern. If Person 1 continues saying, "But false rape allegations are a huge problem! Women can just get a man locked up just by making an accusation!" I start to think that something is wrong. Does he not understand the argument? Is he approaching this conversation with the idea that false rape allegations are endemic and is undissuadable by facts? So perhaps I will try again to explain. If he continues to do the exact same thing without modifying his position or addressing the information I presented, I have to begin to question just how sincerely he is approaching this conversation and whether he is approaching this conversation from a place of ignorance and has an interest in having his concerns addressed and learning more or whether he is simply trying to advocate a demonstrably false perspective irrespective of the facts.
And if this is someone whom I have spoken to before, and this is someone I know has a history of arguing the feminism is a plot to subjugate men or passionately arguing anti-feminist or even misogynistic (I don't conflate the two) perspectives on the basis of clearly held principles, I am suspicious about the idea that, if only I took his concerns seriously this eighth time, everything would fall into place and he would change his mind. It is because of this that I believe that in many cases you have the order of causation backwards; oftentimes there are men in these conversations who come into the conversation with an adversarial stance towards addressing issues of sexual assault and rape (they present it as anti-male in some fashion (more on this in a moment)); the adversarial stance is not created by dismissiveness by exists prior to it, and the dismissiveness itself is a reaction to that adversarial stance.
You are right, of course, that this is not
everyone, which is why I do try to address the concerns even when I don't think that they are engaging with me sincerely (and by "sincerely" I mean "Willing to listen and to change their minds as they learn new things"; I'm sure their beliefs are sincerely held), I have to assume that there are people who are reading who are neutral or confused and are willing to listen, even if I sometimes have my doubts about my interlocutors. I think of those people as a more potentially persuadable audience than the person I am actually discussing something with. But I think it is a mistake to simply presume that the issue here is that peoples' concerns are not being adequately addressed and not that they don't have issues they want addressed; they are simply trying to express their viewpoints.
And I realize that you weren't necessarily talking about me in the particular when you were talking about how some people are seeing their concerns dismissed, but I think that by and large other people actually
do address those concerns with a lot of patience.
A dismissive attitude and the focus of discussion being entirely on what men do to women makes it look like men are being attacked. Discussing it from the men committing it to women viewpoint is perfectly valid (as it makes up the majority of cases), it's the reality. But if the valid concerns are brushed off, no matter how tiny they may be compared to the bigger problem, then what's the point of actual discussion? Men feel like this issue isn't about them, just about women because of the way it's conveyed.
Speaking in broad generalities, the issues of rape and sexual assault are about what men to do women and about what men to do to men, and outside of prison it is overwhelmingly an issue of what men do to women - as you say. Given that, I don't see how it is possible to have a discussion about rape and sexual assault and simply bury that because some men are oversensitive enough to think that a discussion about "Men who rape and sexually assault" is a discussion that is attacking them, men who I presume do not in fact rape or sexually assault anyone.
Truth be told, I am having some difficulty thinking of a concern I have seen someone express which was not easily answerable with, "No, that's not what we want to do" or "No, we don't think all men are rapists" or "No, we really do think that is a problem, too" or "No, that is actually a myth and here's why," or some variation on one of those themes.
Shoot, even saying "educating" men is loaded, hence kevm3's reaction.
In point of fact, the article hardly mentioned men outside of quotes from outside sources. It also talked about both men and women with these misconceptions and gave examples of both. The article was actually quite scrupulous about not making this an "We need to educate the men" issue, but a "We have a problem culturally and both men and women are susceptible to this."
Unfortunately, it is simply the case - see one of my earlier posts in #76 or #106 for study data and illustrative anecdotes - that a lot of men do not understand consent. And not uncoincidentally it is also true that women do not understand consent (see the issue of "gray rape" mentioned in the article), precisely because this is not a "men" problem but a cultural problem, and educating men is simply part of that project.
Asking them what scares them about it and then discussing that in the broader sense might be a start.
Rape is an all-encompassing issue. It affects men and it affects women. It affects women more but that shouldn't mean that men and the issues pertaining to what occurs to them should be passed up for later.
Okay, then. I'll try that:
Guys, what scares you about an agenda that involves better education about consent, more encouragement to report rape and sexual assault, better practices from law enforcement and judiciary in investigating rape allegations, and opposition to an ideology of sexual puritanism that attaches female ethical and moral worth to suppression of one's sexuality?
And if this is not the "it" that scares you, what is and what scares you about that?
You said it yourself that there is more of a issue with men believing that false rapes are a problem. Why is that? I think that this issue is poorly understand from the male perspective, or at least, I haven't run into literature that wasn't biased in some form. Getting to the heart of that problem and figuring out would help in the long run.
If we believe that false rape reports are more common than they are, we might also be more skeptical about claims of rape in general, we might look for reasons to be suspicious of rape testimony including buying into rape myths, and we might treat rape victims in a hostile manner. These are, of course, all problems with our handling of rape nowadays and it is unfortunately true that law enforcement is actually more likely to subscribe to rape myths such as the idea that a woman must have struggled or a woman should have disheveled hair or a woman should be in a particular emotional state.
