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The state of NeoGAF

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P

PlumCantaloupe

Member
The Albatross said:
The way this is all being handled is inexcusably bad, it's just a master class in bad executive decisions. There isn't much community left here, but removing the Off Topic forum because the owner of the website allegedly did something disgusting several years ago -- and was identifies -- is punishing the community for disgusting decisions that the owner of the website made.

Evilore, the Off Topic forum did not make you make the wrong decision or do the wrong thing 2 years ago or 5 years ago. The Off Topic forum did not make Amir0x download child pornography. Yes, the Off Topic forum exposes risk for your business (these three issues are examples of that risk), but the reason your business is a business is largely because the site has both a gaming discussion area (which I think is the initial draw for most members) and then an off topic area (which most members also chat in). I think most people here became members to chat about videogames, but then naturally, you chat about other things you're interested in -- sports, movies, music, or the really specific topics like the Black Culture threads, developer/programming threads, or the communities like WrassleGaf or NFLGaf. Punishing those communities because you or your former staff are exposing your business to risk with poor choices is not the right way to handle this.

There have been a number of high profile sexual assaults in the news lately, and while most folks are talking about Harvey Weinstein, Liberty Mutual -- the investment firm -- has also recently fired two employees for sexual misconduct at the workplace. It wouldn't be right for Liberty Mutual to say, "We're not having the company Christmas Party, because Christmas parties is what got us into this mess in the first place," or "We're not going to participate in social out reach because social out reach has made us look like hypocrites with these sexual assaults." No, because it's not The Christmas Party or the Social outreach program that's causing the problem: It's bad, hurtful, or illegal decisions made by you or by some former staff members.

You've always had a reputation for making brash decisions, and most of these have not faired well for you. Poorly thought out statements about Amir0x that bent the truth, came too late, and just weren't handled correctly; decisions to ban certain topics from being discussed; decisions to ban certain members or former staff, and scores of others. This, though, is clearly the worst decision and it shows in inability to accept fault. This decisions seems to simply be another projection: "I've made bad decisions in my life and business, and so the business must be punished." That doesn't make any sense, it's selfish and delusional.

You have an opportunity to make the right decision. Obviously you feel like this site is your baby and "it's your's," but this business exists in spite of you, not because of you. It can be hard for a CEO or business owner to give up something that they think is theirs, many CEOs resist this and are befuddled when their board ousts them for a business that they themselves launched. The right thing for you to do would have been to announce that you're taking an indefinite leave of absence from NeoGaf. Revenue from the site would be put into an escrow account to cover expenses and hire staff who would manage it in your absence. A board of staff (moderators, admins) would be formed to hire staff who would manage the site and support the community. Those would be base level decisions which would ensure, at least, some integrity with the site which would keep at least some members around. The site would persist and could possibly bounce back, ultimately you wouldn't be punishing your customers or your business for your own bad decision. Instead, you made the wrong decision with how this was handled and then continually made the wrong decision with how you're going to move forward with this, instead of holding yourself accountable, you're punishing the community that has made your business successful.

It shows an utter lack of self-awareness which then also undermines any integrity that you're trying to preserve against allegations like the ones you're facing.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The way this has been handled comes across as immature. It shows a distinct lack of empathy and respect for victims of sexual assault and their recent public outreach campaigns.

Sadly, what could have been a great platform for speaking out against these issues and setting a moral standard; comes across as suspiciously insecure.
 
W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
So I think everyone kinda needs to take a deep breath and chill out. I don't think the OT is done for good, but there definitely can be some changes that happen. I'm willing to give everyone a chance to figure out how best to unfuck this place. It's been back up for what, a couple hours? And it's already trying to spiral out of control.




And holy fuck Friday is going to be a disaster lol.
 
L

Lucky Seven

Banned
Mr. Phellps said:
Unfortunately, GAF has a history of mishandling these controversies, and each time an Amirox or an Opiate outburst happens, the community suffers. This is just another gaping wound that just keeps bleeding.

I'm honestly unsure about where I stand here. I love GAF for the community, not for the person running it. At the same time, I can't dissociate it from it's owner. It benefits him after all.

For the time being, I will stand by the alleged victim's side. Trust the victim, it takes a lot of guts to come out and tell their harassment stories, etc. We've all been through this many times with other culprits. This time, it just so happens that the accused party is NeoGAFs' headmaster. I can't treat this differently.

For better or for worse, I will watch as this story develops. And I hope, after all, that it wasn't true. Not because it suddenly makes me comfortable coming back to GAF, but because it means there was one less case o harassment in the world, and because it means that someone that was once believed to be supportive of women's rights was not involved in a sexual harassment case.

As it stands, I Believe in her.
Click to expand...
This, all of this. This is complicated, more information needs to come out and for all of us on the outside we won't be getting it.

Now that the site is back up, I'd suggest waiting for more statements from Evilore while also checking out what she says. They're not obligated to tell us anything, but until everything is said and done people can contemplate for themselves whether they should hold onto GAF.
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
Ombra said:
It says a lot that off topic didn't devolve onto /pol with edgy man children injecting Hitler did nothing wrong into random threads for the meme lulz. Those kind of people HATE gaf because that shit never flew here.
Click to expand...

You know what DID fly here though? Going around calling everybody who didn't pass some gaf progressive purity test Hiter, a nazi, a racist, and any number of other things, usually with little/no justification. That flew here. And that was a problem.

Sounds like a ton of those people are leaving or have already left. That's a good thing.
 
U

Uno Venova

Banned
Watching your behavior in the Screenjunkies thread was kind of the turning point for me. After 20,000 posts and 6 years I just stopped caring about the forum, the inconsistent, and oppresive moderation with absolutely no transparency is absolutely no way to run a forum. And now you're making it even worse with anonymous mods.

The layout is great and all, but the community is what makes it. And there seems to be a great group going to ERA, with transparent moderation, I'd rather put my eggs in that basket. I'm most likely done here.
 
E

ec0ec0

Member
seeing everyone during the weekend (when the mods had already left, but while the site was still running) acting like they really believed that a social media post was the end for GAF, was shocking.

i really couldn't understant it, or bother to panic. Still can't. This situation is just scary. That everything can turn around so quickly with just a simple twitter post. A huge web site gone. And that was supposedly the end of it.
 
K

Korky

Neo Member
Well, those are all just allegations.

In most countries on this planet, people are innocent until proven guilty. Meaning by a court, not by public emotional reactions.

Even if you think we have the right to be judge, jury and executioner, then at least we have to prove his guilt. Innocent until proven guilty is an ethical stance, not only a legal one. If we don't know all the facts then we can't (shouldn't) pass judgements.

It's digusting how we let emotions take control of us like this and we start judging so quickly before we know the actual factual truth.

Also, on a seperate note, this sounds odd to me:

According to Kotaku, the accuser was so traumatized that not only has she "continued her friendship" with him...but also "had a brief physical relationship with Malka until they had a falling out at E3 2015."

Yeah, sounds like an extremely traumatic experience indeed.
 
G

GYODX

Member
You are being selfish and delusional. The forum can survive without you; step down and let somebody else take the reins.
 
Represent.

Represent.

Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Wamb0wneD said:
You mean wanting better sources than banned users who love to see this place go down?
Absolute trash indeed. I don't believe Evilore, since I have no actual sources. I also don't take everything someone says at face value just because she's a woman. Guess that makes me sexist or something.
Click to expand...

Seriously, ban all these lame ass male feminists.
 
T

therealist

Member
ZeoVGM said:
So basically, bury your head in the sand because you don't want to see subjects (that you aren't forced to click) related to the realities of today's world.
Click to expand...

GAF is a gaming forum at its core, not a "realities of today's world" forum. A forum doesn't have to be everything to everyone. It is your right to leave and I respect that decision. Now respect the decision of people who want to stay.
 
ramuh

ramuh

Member
Uno Venova said:
Watching your behavior in the Screenjunkies thread was kind of the turning point for me. After 20,000 posts and 6 years I just stopped caring about the forum, the inconsistent, and oppresive moderation with absolutely no transparency is absolutely no way to run a forum. And now you're making it even worse with anonymous mods.

The layout is great and all, but the community is what makes it. And there seems to be a great group going to ERA, with transparent moderation, I'd rather put my eggs in that basket. I'm most likely done here.
Click to expand...

I'd say, log off for a while and return and see if you like it or not.
 
R

rucury

Banned
Its mostly juniors now posting stupid comments and baiting, but the sad thing is that if things keep going the way they are going, we’re looking at the future of GAF in these gamergate-rhetoric-using members.

PhoReal said:
If this place can move past the leftist bullshit this forum could be awesome again

Not getting my hopes up
Click to expand...

As if on cue. I’m glad I wrote “mostly juniors”.
 
T

The Lamp

Member
How are you going to enforce sterilizing off-topic discussion from political or social commentary? Everything in life bleeds into these topics and it's impossible to avoid them completely. A dev might have personal social or political reasons for a game feature. A movie may have political or social implications. I'm not sure your strategy will be effective at what you hope to achieve.
 
T

TwilightPrincess

Member
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret said:
I dont believe you're innocent but feel free to prove us all wrong if you have the guts.
Click to expand...

She slept with him after the shower event. Read the Kotaku and Wayforward articles. Also she didn't even want to publish the info, it was stolen without her consent which in the end will hurt her more. The whole case is a mess but really not worth to damage this forum or leave it. But people love drama.

And yes the political side of Neogaf was toxic, so if some of this toxiticy goes away it even has something good. I loved the gamingside of Neogaf and hope it will stay.
 
Iorv3th

Iorv3th

Member
autoduelist said:
You know what I've always hated most about Neogaf?

I rarely felt like I could speak my mind. You risked being called something terrible for simply asking a question, or asking for more evidence, or simply being on the fence about something. I realize people hate toxicity, but the ban culture here -fostered- toxicity because the bandwagon attack mobs were allowed to shower insults at will... even if the insults themselves were hate driven ['cunt', for example].

If you asked a question, you were accused of baiting. Do you guys realize how toxic that is? People should always be allowed to ask questions. If you asked for more evidence, you were done. Heck, I fucking hate Trump. But if I mention that? Then clearly, I'm lying... right? I'm just setting up for something else. Bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. I've been far more left than almost every one here for longer than most here have been alive... but just because I don't agree with their agenda I risk being painted as a fascist, which is absurd. That's a culture of fear. That's censorship through ideology shaming. I guarantee my anarchy trumps your fucking Clinton loving nonsense, but god forbid I say anything against Clinton, because I get painted as a Trump loving fascist. That's sick. Sick, sick, sick. Broken minds led by broken ideology ruled by broken moderation that can't handle being questioned.

Now, you know what? I don't know if you're guilty of anything. I don't know if what was said to happen happened, and honestly, even if it did, I don't know what signals were or weren't sent, or what level of miscommunication happened. So I don't particularly like that you were summarily executed by mob. My guess is you're full of shit... but I know that's just a guess. I know I have no idea. And I won't execute you for it, just like I wouldn't execute Naughty Dog, even though it was so much fun for people here to leap to ridiculous conclusions based on a single tweet.

But you know what? You fostered an environment that summarily executes with no evidence. So while I hate it, and I'll -always- be on the side of 'wait for more information' regardless of the topic, I can't say I can't see the sick humor of it all. Some people need to learn by example, and if you're truly innocent of all charges, then I hope next time someone gets accused of something you support the presumption of innocence. This is not saying I don't think horrible things happen all the time - they do... my wife has been sexually harassed at work and I know how hard it is to come forward and rock the boat.

If you're guilty, then I hope you learn. Evolve. Grow. Become a better person. Everyone can change, even though some swear no one can.

If you're innocent, then also learn. Evolve. Grow. The culture of 'no proof needed' you fostered is sick... it flies in the face of everything our collective cultures have learned and fought for over the past few millennia. You reaped what you sowed, and it's either ironic, or horrifying, based on your guilt... which I can never know.

I'll probably get banned for this post. I don't think I said anything worth being banned for. In fact, I think this is a pretty fair assessment of both your actions, the accusations against you, and the general culture of this site. If you ban me, fine. If you don't, I'll still be here, posting, because, honestly, I don't judge a community on a single individual member. Heck, I don't judge -you- based on actions of a previous you, because I know people change over time.

People learn. People grow. People evolve. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Now it's time for you to do so, and in the process, evolve this site so it doesn't become an echo chamber of toxicity against anything deemed toxic.
Click to expand...


bomblord1 said:
I wanted to quote you and say I agree but my first thought was I was legitimately scared that I would be moved by people saying I'm defending a rapist encouraging something that ends in culture and attacked on other grounds of being a gamergate supporter or a white supremacist for wanting to agree with a fairly neutral post.

I have to say gaf really did a number on me I almost never speak my mind anymore on the internet after being hate mobbed and temp banned a few times for what I legitimately thought were fairly innocent questions or stances. Usually taking a wait for the evidence on a topic of fairly serious allegations would also end badly. Even at this point I'm thinking someone is going to dig through my post history after seeing this and find some kind of serious allegation against me. It's even seeped into my personal life.

At some points I would say gaf scared me more than 4 Chan especially "detective gaf" who would find some insane thing someone said years or even longer ago, dig deep into people's personal life, or bring up some random contributor to a game and say anyone who supported it was the scum of the earth and turn those random bits of info into massive controversy. I'm probably a hypocrite too because I'm sure I've in some ways participated, encouraged, or cheered on similar behavior in the past when it aligned with my beliefs.

On the topic of the actual allegations it was handled about as horridly as possible and on the case of it despite evilores assurance to the contrary I have a hard time believing him after the crap show that was the last few days. I'll probably be using an adblocker on here until definitive evidence is given that proves something one way or another.
Click to expand...

I agree with these posts. Off Topic did foster a lot of toxicity stemming from political discussion to where I didn't even feel comfortable replying honestly in some of those threads.

I don't know what EvilLore did in his past. Hopefully he learns from whatever mistakes he has made and has changed for the better. I know I have done stupid shit under the influence of alcohol in the past when I was younger.

At some point we gotta stop crucifying people for past mistakes. That's one of the reasons you aren't going to get good honest people in politics, they don't want any dumb shit from their past dug up and thrown at them or used to misconstrue who they are now.

I've been posting on gaming forums for around 20 years and hope that this place can get back to what it was.
 
O

onadesertedisland

Member
What is sad is the end result will be so much worse than the events that spawned it. I see the re-opening of this forum as validation for some pretty repugnant viewpoints/behavior of a good portion of the "gamer" community.
 
meanspartan

meanspartan

Member
ChaosZeroX said:
I can't believe some.people are actually staying after hearing everything. I hope you realize that by staying all your doing is endorsing what the owner of this site has done.

There are other gaming forums out there.

I for one would like to request someone PM me the new site people are moving to. I have reddit and would like something to replace Gaf. I can't support this site anymore.
Click to expand...

I cant believe an accusation is enough to ruin someone. Where else in life do you take the word of a total stranger?

Gaf doesnt even let people post unverified rumors about fucking GAMES, we are gonna just gonna believe a claim that ruins someone's life?

People making such accusations should be listened to and comforted, and their claims investigated. But I refuse to just "believe" anyone, especially strangers.
 
mindatlarge

mindatlarge

Member
I've never been banned from a messageboard and I don't feel an account suicide does any good other than letting out frustration and anger. Extended, constructive and honest dialog seems to do more good.

With that being said, I'll try and extend some of my thoughts and concerns in a honest and fair way, constructively.

Complete honesty:

While I always enjoyed lurking here, to keep up to date with all the new video game news and such, it wasn't until I became a member that I found out how toxic the atmosphere could be at times. Though I stayed reserved and respected other's opinions as I was just here to be apart of the gaming community and always stayed out of other matters out of respect for others, I never desired to be apart of that negative aspect.

It should be known that I never respected or enjoyed how certain mindset mobs seemed to have a green light to attack others and jump to crazy conclusions for questionable reasons. I understand we all have different backgrounds as individuals but I want it to be known, that's not me. I'm no mob member nor do I rush to judgment based on a different belief than mine or with little to no facts on a matter concerning an individual. I'm so tired of divisions and excuses to lash out at others because of a varied opinion. When it came to game discussion though, I really enjoyed spending time here. Saying all that, I feel I'm being 100% transparent with how I feel and have always felt.

As far as the more important matter at hand goes, I've always gone by the mantra "innocent until proven guilty", as I try and live my life treating others how I would hope to be treated. I also don't feel it's my place or really anyone's place to rush to judgment. When indisputable facts materialize...as there is always two sides to a story, one should then form an opinion after the rock solid facts are known, but still, try and be constructive with your words no matter what. So, I just needed to say as well, while I take allegations like the ones that have been made seriously, especially since I've witnessed first-hand how that sort of experience can affect someone, we have to as a community let the facts speak for themselves and not rush to conclusions based on other factors and put yourself in another's shoes, trying to stay as neutral as possible until the facts present themselves.

Now that I have those words off my chest, I feel that I've said all I needed to say and this is the last time I plan on discussing it.

If it is felt that my viewpoints don't jive with this site, then I understand being banned. If not, I plan on just discussing games as I did in the past and reading other people's gaming related content. If I simply don't want to post here for any reason anymore, I'll simply just not post here anymore and go on my marry way.
 
M

-Mutsukki-

Member
Who fucking sane person still references, or cares about Gamergate in 2017? Anyone still involved in anything like that in any way is really pitiable
 
G

Glass Shark

Banned
Setting aside all the other stuff for a moment (because there’s A LOT to be said about that), what kind of meaningful conversations can we have, even on the gaming side, without being able to discuss the things that are now off-limits? It’s 2017. Everything is politics. Everything is heated news. Everything is a social issue. Without those deeper subjects, GAF just becomes a glorified version of GameFAQs where people ask how to get the cursed ring in Dark Souls or whatever the fuck.
 
P

Phased

Member
rucury said:
Its mostly juniors now posting stupid comments and baiting, but the sad thing is that if things keep going the way they are going, we’re looking at the future of GAF in these gamergate-rhetoric-using members.
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

I can find gamergate disgusting and still think the OT forum was borderline extremist. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive and I'd bet a lot of people fall in the same area of the spectrum.
 
ramuh

ramuh

Member
PhoReal said:
If this place can move past the leftist bullshit this forum could be awesome again

Not getting my hopes up
Click to expand...

There was also rightist bullshit too (although that side was mostly muted by the past mods). If we are ever to return to a OT in the future, we need to allow open discourse while shunning racist, and other vile behavior we need a strong neutral mod team.
 
R

RastaMentality

Banned
PhoReal said:
If this place can move past the leftist bullshit this forum could be awesome again

Not getting my hopes up
Click to expand...

it never will

gaf will always be a place where racial minorities, women, and the lgbt community have their humanity protected

if this bothers you i suggest you find another place to post
 
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