• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Ubi - "Wii U owners don't buy AC", Watch_Dogs their last M-rated WiiU release.

Log4Girlz

Member
No surprise. Nintendo has made little effort to cultivate an audience that is interested in the genres that are the bread and butter of massive third parties for decades now. These companies have confidence in Sony and Microsoft and push their AAA wares on those platforms without a second thought. Nintendo's platforms have been hit or miss with mature titles for ages and it is the platform creator's doing. Plain and simple.

I just can't believe the arguments made sometimes accusing third parties of bias because they didn't support the original Wii with tons of software in genres that simply were not their specialty because it did better than either HD platform individually. Like they were supposed to just change how they did business because a company that had historically been difficult with third parties suddenly had a hit.

And now that the successor to a platform that did not cultivate a mature, AAA game consuming audience has released, these companies are expected to support it with high quality ports on par with what they offer the competing hardware despite obtuse, weak hardware. Add to this the miserable sales of said hardware despite Nintendo support of the platform.

Seriously, how the hell can anyone question third party reluctance to support the platform even from the beginning. All these issues are completely Nintendo's fault.
 

sörine

Banned
you're not including PS4 or XboxOne, retail or digital
Why would we include PS4/XB1, those versions weren't what the Wii U version was delayed for? These were 2013 ltds too, by Feb the Wii U ltd crawled to 99k. We never got a leak for PS4/XB1 Legends, just that it didn't sell well either.

I know you have access to more numbers but given what we know it's hard to imagine Legends doing so well digitally the overall numbers elsewhere combined would be 3-4x Wii U when the numbers we do have are barely over 1x Wii U? That's why I figured Europe?
 

Cachuli

Banned
this has been happening since n64... nintendo console = nintendo games

ps: i bet bayonetta 2 port for x1/ps4 in 6 month or so
 

Opiate

Member
selling best does not equal selling well

Absolutely true. The Wii U in particular is in trouble because it's selling so poorly, and that specific issue probably can't be fixed by Nintendo. These problems with third parties go way back, however, and clearly transcend the specific problems the Wii U is having.
 

Roo

Member
People always say this and yet they never have any evidence to back it up despite historical evidence to the contrary. We know that devs had to go to great strides to cut things down to actually run on the Wii and we know that devs have to cope with an entirely different, again much weaker architecture on the Wii U.

Perhaps if the hardware was even remotely comparable in architecture or performance to Nintendo's current-gen competitors more people who buy the Assassin's Creeds of the gaming world would buy the system. Maybe if devs didn't have to rework things as much to run decently it wouldn't be such a PITA and more would be willing to work on ports (or even-heaven forbid-be able to ship them on time with decent performance).

Across the board from corporate philosophy to services to advertising to performance Nintendo isn't in any way, shape, or form ready to compete with the PS4 and XB1, much less their successors, but at least being in the same ballpark on performance would put them closer to being able to do that. By comparison continuing to develop gaming hardware with being able to fit it into a tiny, power-sipping form factor as one of the main goals doesn't do anything but drive the nails deeper.

Did you even read my post? You're just repeating what I said.
A more powerful console definitely would help them to get more third party support but it wouldn't be able to fix the problem. Even if they had the strongest console, third parties wouldn't support it the same way they support Sony and Microsoft simply because the audience isn't there. Nintendo made sure to align its own userbase with family/casual friendly games and now they're stuck. Read Hiltz's comment, even Iwata himself said it:

Software publishers that develop content that has great affinity with audiences that Nintendo has historically been strong with, namely children and families, are still very active supporters of Wii U, and their enthusiasm for Wii U can also been seen from the fact that they have even reached out to us to help people upgrade from Wii to Wii U.

Software publishers are not necessarily keen on making games in genres that have weaker affinity with audiences that Nintendo has not been as strong with, where making a huge investment does not guarantee a sufficient return.

With regard to Wii U, we first need to create a strong foundation in areas Nintendo excels at and achieve a sufficient sales volume. If we manage to do so, those publishers in the overseas markets who are currently not interested in Wii U will be attracted to the Wii U platform, as they were to Nintendo 3DS. This is going to be our approach in the near future.

It's not only about how powerful hardware they can come up with or firing Iwata, etc.
The company as a whole needs a shake up, a makeover. Work HARD on relationships with third parties, change policies, fund new studios, new intelectual properties that entice broader audiences, shake off the "family friendly" stigma/image it has. They still can provide those games and yet get mature games. If they don't spend money and take risks to change people's (industry) perception they certainly can't expect the world to be like.. Hey, it's Nintendo Ultra HD my go to console for Nintendo and third party games.
I know Nintendo is nowhere near the size of Microsoft and Sony, they have other divisions to eat up posible costs but you need to recognize Nintendo is playing the cheap card here. They're like.. oh well, if we launch our games, everyone will come eventually. LOL!
 

Sacul64GC

Banned
I bought Assassin's Creed 3 on Wii U. Did not buy Black Flag since I hated 3. Loved the other 4 games before it but could not get into 3.
 

Opiate

Member
Did you even read my post? You're just repeating what I said.
A more powerful console definitely would help them to get more third party support but it wouldn't be able to fix the problem. Even if they had the strongest console, third parties wouldn't support it the same way they support Sony and Microsoft simply because the audience isn't there. Nintendo made sure to align its own userbase with family/casual friendly games and now they're stuck. Read Hiltz's comment, even Iwata himself said it:



It's not only about how powerful hardware they can come up with or firing Iwata, etc.
The company as a whole needs a shake up, a makeover. Work HARD on relationships with third parties, change policies, fund new studios, new intelectual properties that entice broader audiences, shake off the "family friendly" stigma/image it has. They still can provide those games and yet get mature games. If they don't spend money and take risks to change people's (industry) perception they certainly can't expect the world to be like.. Hey, it's Nintendo Ultra HD my go to console for Nintendo and third party games.
I know Nintendo is nowhere near the size of Microsoft and Sony, they have other divisions to eat up posible costs but you need to recognize Nintendo is playing the cheap card here. They're like.. oh well, if we launch our games, everyone will come eventually. LOL!

I really don't think Nintendo's problem is that they need a "broader audience," exactly. That's something they've always had.

The problem is that they lack a very specific audience: males age 16-35. This is the market EA, Activision, Ubisoft and Take 2 focus on, almost exclusively.
 

Arkam

Member
Well I dont disagree with Ubisoft on this,but it really is not as cut and dry as all that. Yes no one bought AC 3/4 on WiiU, but Ubi also pushed the other console version much harder.

I mean AC 3 came to the WiiU almost a month after PS3/360. Then AC4 was really pushed as a Ps4/X1 game. I mean you really cant blame gamers for not going out of their way to buy late/inferior versions of games.

Dont even get me started on WatchDogs... basically telling people it may/maynot ever get released, then finally say its coming....6 months after other consoles.

Honestly Ubisoft(& EA) should have priced their inferior/late multiplats @ $39.99. Would have made them more money.
 

Roo

Member
The problem is that they lack a very specific audience: males age 16-35. This is the market EA, Activision, Ubisoft and Take 2 focus on, almost exclusively.

Yup, the biggest (and somehow, loyal) gaming audience (console wise) and yet here we are.
 

ozfunghi

Member
Nintendo should dedicate a few small internal "porting studio's" and do the "must-have" titles themselves, just pay for the needed royalties. Not every "mature" title is needed for their platform. Make sure they can at least get a GTA, COD, RE... that way and try to snatch up a few nice exclusives (like Bayo2, W101, ZombiU). Fans would know the ports are in capable hands that know the hardware and are able to push it, and it won't be botched.

Now, they just seem to be stuck in an endless loop. Hardware launches without strong Nintendo IP, 3rd parties cry their games don't sell and Nintendo needs to bring their franchises to make sure the userbase grows rapidly.
Nintendo launches with strong Nintendo IP, 3rd parties cry their games don't sell because the userbase is busy playing strong Nintendo IP.

As long as Nintendo is downplaying hardware, the userbase that plays these games, will just be buying these games on the more potent platforms, unless they have no other choice due to exclusivity.
 
I just can't believe the arguments made sometimes accusing third parties of bias because they didn't support the original Wii with tons of software in genres that simply were not their specialty because it did better than either HD platform individually. Like they were supposed to just change how they did business because a company that had historically been difficult with third parties suddenly had a hit.

Wii was a different story. There was definitively something bigger behind the decisions.

Call of Duty 3 outsold PS3 version, no COD4 was made, despite the sales. The excuse was the hardware. Treyarch managed to port it for Wii two years later, thus, made Infinity Ward/Activision claims sound dumb. COD4 skipping Wii in the original release slowed down better potential sales on the platform.

RE4: Wii Edition sold 1.7 million. RE5, for odd reasons, never saw the day of light on Wii despite the ground made by RE4. Instead, they brought two lightgun linear shooters running away from RE's formula. First one managed to sell, but the second didn't and they never managed to bring another on the veins of RE4.

Madden and EA Sports brand changed the aesthestic cover to "All-Play". Just look at it:

THIS:
67258_front.jpg

83877_front.jpg


BECAME THIS:
95547_front.jpg

110349_front.jpg

143600_front.jpg


Guess why sales went down?

Wii U is a bust, no doubt, but with Wii, many third-parties actually fucked up and missed opportunities. Sure, hardware and controls were certainly restricting factors for many developers, but for the cases mentioned above, this doesn't hold any water.
 

Opiate

Member
Yup, the biggest gaming audience (console wise) and yet here we are.

I think you could probably build an audience for other demographics on consoles, but to do so Nintendo would have to actively cultivate it.

I honestly don't think Nintendo's biggest failing with third parties is with EA or Ubisoft or the like; I think their biggest failing is in not cultivating third parties which might better suit their design philosophy.

This isn't some absurd notion. I think many of today's biggest publishers have been built in the image of Sony and Microsoft; they focus on a specific demographic, and nurtured third parties which shared their design. It doesn't mean EA or Activision are "second parties" of Sony or of Microsoft, but it does mean they share an approach to game design which makes them natural allies.

The same could be said of the major players in the iOS world now; Rovio and GungHo and King and the like were nurtured on iOS and are now loyal to it -- not in the most direct sense (i.e. they aren't iOS second parties), but in the sense that these companies started on iOS and were built with iOS-like development in mind from day 1.

This is what Nintendo lacks; third parties which share their design philosophy. It's not impossible to do, Nintendo has just done an awful job of it.
 
Condescending attitude and baited questions aside...

Wii U owners were starved for content when the original release date arrived. When the delayed release arrived, the library had begun to take root. The sales they missed out on for those 7 months of being a "must have game" would have been more than the sales they made on the other consoles when it finally arrived there. Those other platforms contributed very little to the overall results - especially at full price. There's no way you can argue that they actually gained any mindshare when you look at the actual results on those other platforms.

In the end, more people had the ability to play it, but the evidence doesn't point to them actually wanting to in very large numbers. A release with the XB1 and PS4 versions would have made far more sense for the project. What made it a 'good idea'?

Wii U owners just don't care about these games. They don't care about Assassin's Creed, they don't care about ZombiU, they don't care about Wonderful 101, and they won't care about Devil's Third or Bayonetta 2 either. It has nothing to do with some imaginary disrespect the publishers showed to the Wii U audience by releasing the games late or releasing "bad ports with no DLC" or whatever.

The core Nintendo audience has been shrinking since the N64 days. As this audience has shrunk it's become more conservative and more insulated from trends in gaming. They're Nintendo gamers who like Nintendo games and who have explicitly rejected the conventions of the rest of the industry - blood, guns, violence, zombies, etc. At this point I'm not sure there's anything anyone can do about it: this is the audience Nintendo's got and they're never going to be able to train that audience to like mainstream games, nor will they be able to attract core gamers to their platform in large numbers.

Imagine trying to open a restaurant on an island whose inhabitants have for many centuries come to subsist entirely on yams.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Well I suppose the data don't lie. It's an issue that is continually being cultivated by the very narrow dominate focus of Nintendo's overall game lineup - that is, the games they develop and publish - as family-friendly titles for all ages. The exceptions such as them publishing Fatal Frame don't even make sense when they're not going to publish it in Europe or the USA. They need to aggressively expand the percentage of risk taking titles where they leave their comfort zone. And they can do this while retaining the very personality that makes them so charming in the first place.

So for me the problem remains Nintendo's fault. It's necessary imo to start with a primer on Wii for illustrative purposes, so bare with me if you plan on wasting any time reading my post (I apologize in advance, and every shred of this post is just my opinion. Nothing is meant as me thinking it's a fact):

Nintendo's consoles have traditionally been more fun-for-all-ages oriented, not that there's anything wrong with that. The problem is as demographics continue to shift, it's not possible to be able to razor focus on one group 90% of the time and still expect mass market penetration. As a console manufacturer, it is your job to create an environment conducive to the type of experiences you most want on your platforms and perhaps encourage gaps to be filled by being willing to spend some cash to get third parties to create in the genres/themes you're not comfortable with (Note: Iwata has continually said they don't pay third parties like MS and Sony do. So hey if you don't compete, you automatically lose. Don't complain later Iwata!).

Some companies try to cast a wide net, others a more nuanced approach. People always tried to say developers didn't try on Wii, but the truth is many did try. They just didn't try with what people in the hardcore gaming community wanted them to. Stuff like Just Dance, Carnival Games, Boom Blox, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, Michael Jackson: The Experience, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Deca Sports, Game Party, EA Sports Active, We Skit, etc. represented many developers grasping what the Wii market was about, and making millions because of it. But how many forum members would say that was 'no effort' at all? I can tell you it's tons of people, because I've discussed this subject on many occasions in the past. They always blamed developers, when it was clear developers were just following Nintendo's leads (and being rather successful primarily only when they did, unless a major franchise name was attached to the title).

The disconnect exists imo because there is some stigma associated with these types of titles in hardcore gaming community. I personally feel because most of these games are shallow low-effort cash grabs (my personal view makes me feel perfectly comfortable including Wii Sports/Resorts in this group, as I've detailed at length before how problematic they were as quality sports games), but whatever I feel they weren't always well received, and they usually came with a hefty dose of associated traits that people generally assumed came along for the ride. It didn't matter that these games represented developers "trying" by responding to the actual market as it existed on Wii due to Nintendo's efforts. It just wasn't the latest Metal Gear or the new iteration of Final Fantasy, so obviously devs weren't trying in the eyes of many gamers.


Nintendo fostered an environment on the Wii that was illustrated by their casual fare, and supplemented by the hundredth version of Mario, Zelda, Metroid and Donkey Kong. Those franchise always come, so the differetiation is emphasized in the new approaches NIntendo takes. And as they 'led the way', the developed a consumer base that hungered for that very same (in my view garbage bin) mini-game compilation gimmickry parade. I disliked them from the second I tried Wii Sports. I tried too - got my whole family together, they laughed and seemed to adore it and played it for about a week and never touched the Wii again, emblematic of many people's experiences. (As an aside: In general, you can't turn people who do not have an interest in gaming into long-term gamers; they're more for the quick fix, and the emergent mobile gaming market covers much of that.) And those games sold extremely well, customers wanted them, The ones I listed above sold millions a piece! The few exceptions to the rule on Wii were generally those in well established franchises that typically sell anywhere, like Call or Duty or Resident Evil. But everybody knew what the focus of the platform was.

What did NIntendo choose to illustrate for the Wii U? Their advertisements once again focused on fun-for-all concepts that people were fast getting tired of by that point (and because Nintendo all but completely abandoned Wii in the last years of its life, so they felt forgotten and many moved on). They at least tried a little bit more obviously by helping push ZombiU, but the systems were packed in with NintendoLand with commercials like this - yet another mini-game compilation - another New Super Mario Bros. title, and Sing Party with commercials like this. They had Rabbids Party from Ubi, Scribblenauts, Skylanders, Your Shape Fitness Evolved, Sonic All-Star Racing, Game Party Champions.

Every major videogame system always gets the sports releases like FIFA and Madden (although not much longer for Wii U, illustrating how dire things are), so that's not going to demonstrate the system was going to be focused on more than the traditional Nintendo console content. They had way past relevancy ports of Batman and Mass Effect 3. a late port of Darksiders II, and a few other niche titles that were also old news by the time they hit Wii U. If it weren't for Zombie U, people were to get the impression that the system consisted of old ports that were either better elsewhere or so ancient that few cared to play a version with upgrades so infinitesimal that they barely registered.

Then we got many many more months of the same type of casual fare mixed with more ancient ports, and the next big title was Lego City Underground - yet another fun-for-all-ages romp that continued to fine tradition of the console being exactly what everyone expects, and were frankly bored with by that point. At least Wii, many thought, had a gimmick that could spice these experiences up. On my Wii U I mostly get map/inventory screens and lame off screen mini-games that I would rather have died than play anyway. Not exactly a compelling reason to jump on board here versus the other platforms.

And it's not like Nintendo shouldn't have realized the problem. They have reams of colorful platforms on Wii U. Endless family friendly outings. There's nothing wrong with those types of games, but diversification is the key. But Hell, even a year after Wii U was out they were saying they were having trouble figuring out compelling ways to sell the Gamepad concept! This is insanity! You can't simply keep coming up with a new gameplay idea and then yet again stick fuckin' Mario in it because you're so risk averse you believe that's the only way it'll sell. They should have confidence that the ideas themselves would sell the product, but they don't. For me this very frequently means the ideas themselves simply aren't particularly compelling, and many times this is correct as far as I'm concerned.

Yarn Kirby was disastrously easy, a glorified collection game without a single bit of compelling level design, obstacle navigation or enemy progression. It was cloying to the extreme. They probably realized nobody wanted to play this gameplay, and that it'd be even harder to sell if it was headed by a no-name character like "Prince Fluff." But then they added Kirby, and voila! Your game sells, despite the quality of the actual content which might as well have played itself for how insultingly easy it was. Shit, it wasn't even a decent scavenger hunt. It's not like they were trying to sell some impressive story. These games live and die on their gameplay, and the gameplay was a mind numbing cake walk surrounded by a gorgeous art style. I'm surprised I even lasted as long as I did without falling asleep at the wheel. Point is, you can insert your own view on many of their concepts, but they keep diluting the strength of their brands by continually thinking the way to success is to make a cool new gameplay idea (or sometimes not-so-cool) and then bury it beneath Yoshi's asscrack.

I like my Wii U a fair amount now. It came into its own a year after its launch, delivered Pikmin 3, Wonderful 101 and a slew of really good indie titles. I'm getting Splatoon, Xenoblade Chronciles X, Bayonetta 2. Super Mario 3D World was pretty good. Zelda U in the future looks mouthwatering. They are going to get some great titles.

But it's too little too late at this point to meaningfully change the systems trajectory, and that's a shame. It's a system that had a lot of potential to bring back Nintendo at their most boldly focused, hardcore gamers once again taking center stage in their productions.

The essential point to this long-winded narrative about what I feel keeps happening is that Nintendo has got to start leading the way. It is time they cast off all preconceived notions about they must do as a company who has always done this or that, and started diving headfirst out of their comfort zone. They have to make partnerships with third parties willing to create games that are not "mature" in the sense of blood and gore and sex (although if appropriate, they should), but 'mature' in terms of the careful handling of adult themes and experimental gameplay that speaks to the importance of sometimes focusing more directly on specific niche demographics.

Their ideas keep getting more and more like they just want to double down. Amiibos for example do not change Nintendo's reputation in this regard, if anything they reinforce it. Splatoon looks like a heck of a lot of fun and I want it, but thematically and artistically it eschews anything but the same fun-for-all-ages vibes the vast majority of all their releases have. I'm not asking them to stop making those, because I love those games more often than not. But I am saying that if Nintendo means to be relevant into the future, they have to be willing to change the focus a bit. Maybe push a larger fraction of their overall game releases to be a bit more risky and focusing on the 18-32 male demographic. Perhaps if they're too scared of that, they can form more meaningful partnerships. They are trying now a little bit, but Wii U is clearly too late to salvage. So I hope they begin to apply lessons learned in things like Bayonetta 2 partnership and Devil's Third agreement that they need to have these titles available on day one, they need to push them just as hard as any Mario game, and they need to be willing to prop up indie devs that cast nets into experimental waters and give them the budgets to make AA titles, like Sony keeps increasingly doing with titles such as The Tomorrow Children and Rime.

I love Nintendo. I want them to maintain the character they have always had
 
I think you could probably build an audience for other demographics on consoles, but to do so Nintendo would have to actively cultivate it.

I honestly don't think Nintendo's biggest failing with third parties is with EA or Ubisoft or the like; I think their biggest failing is in not cultivating third parties which might better suit their design philosophy.

This isn't some absurd notion. I think many of today's biggest publishers have been built in the image of Sony and Microsoft; they focus on a specific demographic, and nurtured third parties which shared their design. It doesn't mean EA or Activision are "second parties" of Sony or of Microsoft, but it does mean they share an approach to game design which makes them natural allies.

The same could be said of the major players in the iOS world now; Rovio and GungHo and King and the like were nurtured on iOS and are now loyal to it -- not in the most direct sense (i.e. they aren't iOS second parties), but in the sense that these companies started on iOS and were built with iOS-like development in mind from day 1.

This is what Nintendo lacks; third parties which share their design philosophy. It's not impossible to do, Nintendo has just done an awful job of it.

Nintendo tried what you're suggesting with Wii. It was made with exactly this same line of logic. They tried to make Wii as alternative for third-parties to follow their business model. This is was Iwata making clear what was Nintendo's strategy with the Wii:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2005/03/04/nintendo-president-talks-revolution-2

Satoru Iwata said:
If the next generation platforms are going to create even more gorgeous looking games using further enhanced functionality, and if that next-gen market can still expand the games industry, then I'm afraid that third-parties may not support Nintendo.

Satoru Iwata said:
On the other hand, what we are trying to do is such a different thing, and people have come to realize that the approach we have taken with Nintendo DS can actually expand the market beyond what existing platforms can do. Therefore I believe there should be more third parties who are willing to support Nintendo's new ideas.

Satoru Iwata said:
If we receive the support of the licensees, I believe we will expand third party support. If our ideas cannot be appealing enough, then we cannot receive third party support.

Satoru Iwata said:
Already publishers are not hesitant in disclosing their concerns over next generation gaming platforms, and development costs are rising. Publishers are afraid... of whether [the next-gen] consoles can appeal to people who are not the avid game fans of today.

In the end, this didn't worked and few third-parties fully supported this idea. Wouldn't be a good idea to repeat something that didn't met their expectations. The best thing they need to do is change their mentality as most of the biggest publishers and developers disagree with this "unique" strategy.
 
Nintendo could have had the best of both worlds if the Wii was of equal power to the 360/PS3. Just as with the GCN they would have received a lionshare of the third party ports while stilling blazing trails with their social gaming experiences.

Looking back, it was exceptionally short-sighted.
 
Black Flag was good but I really almost swore completely off AC with 3, WiiU or not. Watch_Dogs is a huge disappointment so of course I'm not going to buy it on WiiU. Not really sure how WiiU owners can support shitty releases. ZombiU was/is the tits, no excuse for people not to own that.
 

mo60

Member
I think the best way for nintendo to get third party support is to do it mostly indirectly like the Wii.They do not need to follow everything Microsoft or sony does to grab third party support. That won't work as we saw with the WiiU's somewhat direct approach.As long as the hardware is appealing for consumers and somewhat appealing for most developers games will be developed for the console.They just need to cultivate a big enough audience that would be able to buy the third party casual and hardcore games that release for their future console.They can also fund some studios to produce more western software, but they can not over do it. They can try a direct approach for the third party developers that they think can do well on their platform. We already saw this with the sonic deal.
 

ADANIEL1960

Neo Member
Love Zombi U - Scary scary game. Too bad there won't be another.

What drives a consoles growth?
Is it good games or the potential for good games?
Or the perception of a console being the best new platform?

Has anyone ever believed that the wii U was ever going to be the best new platform?

Why buy a game on console, or the console itself when there is no benefit in doing so?

Most gamers who play Assassin creed already had a PS360. Why but the WiiU version when there was no perceivable benefit. The games looked the same. In fact the site - df - seemingly owned by MS advertising said the 360 version was better than the Wii U version for AC3 / 4 and Black list.
Why buy the WiiU version?

Why buy them?
 

uncleslappy

nethack is my favorite dark souls clone
They'll be back with niche titles later this gen. WiiU is picking up steam and will continue to do so as major releases come out. There'll be just enough of an audience for something along the lines of Raving Rabbids or something similar.
 

Cosmozone

Member
This partnering with 3rd parties is often proposed, but I don't think this will work with western ones. Co-developing is good and the only way, but something like moneyhats doesn't work. I think what's best for them is to diversify and ramp up their first party output, mainly the former just like Disney does with Miramax, etc. 1st party means guaranteed exclusives, better quality, better synergy. Slowly grow into adult themes. Pretty late to begin with, true. But it's never too late I say. There's still no market for true mature games, that could be a good starting point.
 

mo60

Member
This partnering with 3rd parties is often proposed, but I don't think this will work with western ones. Co-developing is good and the only way, but something like moneyhats doesn't work. I think what's best for them is to diversify and ramp up their first party output, mainly the former just like Disney does with Miramax, etc. 1st party means guaranteed exclusives, better quality, better synergy. Slowly grow into adult themes. Pretty late to begin with, true. But it's never too late I say. There's still no market for true mature games, that could be a good starting point.

I think it would work with western developers that produce more child friendly software and software similar to nintendo's like minecraft.
 
Nintendo could have had the best of both worlds if the Wii was of equal power to the 360/PS3. Just as with the GCN they would have received a lionshare of the third party ports while stilling blazing trails with their social gaming experiences.

Looking back, it was exceptionally short-sighted.

If the Wii had been of equal power to the PS360 it would have been of equal price as well, and it would not have sold what it did.
 

Cosmozone

Member
I think it would work with western developers that produce more child friendly software like minecraft.
Well, with small indie titles, it's a lot easier, that's true. Minecraft is probably an exception, I think Notch is a Nintendo hater.
 

Sacul64GC

Banned
Imru’ al-Qays;126162650 said:
Wii U owners just don't care about these games. They don't care about Assassin's Creed, they don't care about ZombiU, they don't care about Wonderful 101, and they won't care about Devil's Third or Bayonetta 2 either. It has nothing to do with some imaginary disrespect the publishers showed to the Wii U audience by releasing the games late or releasing "bad ports with no DLC" or whatever.

The core Nintendo audience has been shrinking since the N64 days. As this audience has shrunk it's become more conservative and more insulated from trends in gaming. They're Nintendo gamers who like Nintendo games and who have explicitly rejected the conventions of the rest of the industry - blood, guns, violence, zombies, etc. At this point I'm not sure there's anything anyone can do about it: this is the audience Nintendo's got and they're never going to be able to train that audience to like mainstream games, nor will they be able to attract core gamers to their platform in large numbers.

Imagine trying to open a restaurant on an island whose inhabitants have for many centuries come to subsist entirely on yams.

I am getting tired of seeing the notion that "Nintendo gamers" are some strange group that never touch other systems and refuse to play other games. I have other systems. My top games one year were Wonderful 101, Bioshock Infinite, LoU, SM3D World, and Zelda ALBW. Apparently I am only supposed to play Nintendo games and ignore all others.

I am not going to buy a game that has less content and releases late on the Wii U when I can get it cheaper with more stuff. Its that simple. Companies cant even figure out if the DLC will come out to the system half the time. I seems to me some people are more worried about Nintendo getting games that may interest them.
 

heidern

Junior Member
I honestly don't think Nintendo's biggest failing with third parties is with EA or Ubisoft or the like; I think their biggest failing is in not cultivating third parties which might better suit their design philosophy.

I agree with the sentiment but I'm not clear on the practicality. Could you elaborate on how exactly Nintendo could go about 'cultivating' suitable third parties?
 
This will be debated, but the online system of the Wii was more detrimental to Nintendo in the long run than the hardware. It meant that even if a 3rd party did make a big game on the Wii, the system set up for extra monetization in terms of DLC was terrible. Now, people may argue what they wish about how bad the monetization schemes are becoming, but it was highly detrimental. Not only for 3rd parties, but for the building a sizable loyal community. The Nintendo online brand simply might as well not even have existed coming into this generation whereas most people who gamed knew of XBL and PSN.

I am not going to buy a game that has less content and releases late on the Wii U when I can get it cheaper with more stuff. Its that simple.

And without realizing it, you just hit the nail on the head of the huge problem Nintendo is facing. It's debatable whether or not it is their fault, but look at your example:

Why would a developer make Bioshock Infinite for the Wii U when you can just play it on the other system?

This is the question that has to be asked. Is the Nintendo only base really a sizable enough contingent to warrant putting out these ports? Because if the idea is that the Nintendo audience who will buy 3rd party games owns other systems, than what's the point of wasting money on a port?

Another problem is that the Nintendo only audience has been shrinking for years now. As of right now they've wedged themselves as the middleman that no one wants. They aren't the cheap option they used to be now that the mobile market exists, and they certainly aren't top of the line.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
Wii was a different story. There was definitively something bigger behind the decisions.

Call of Duty 3 outsold PS3 version, no COD4 was made, despite the sales. The excuse was the hardware. Treyarch managed to port it for Wii two years later, thus, made Infinity Ward/Activision claims sound dumb. COD4 skipping Wii in the original release slowed down better potential sales on the platform.
.

Well there's a simple answer to that. Remember, they were supporting the Wii. The sales weren't that great. So it wasn't worth the trouble. The PS3 version sold worse though? But on hardware that is very similar to the sales leader, which means it was worth the budget as it was probably relatively cheap to port.

Madden IIRC didn't sell that great on the platform either. So they attempted to mix it up, as the Wii audience was huge and so was the title, so they mixed it up a bit and tried targeting the audience a bit better in an attempt to increase sales. But now we diss them with our 20/20 hindsight and ask why they thought sales would drop. Well they didn't know at the time. The Wii was again, a platform which did not have a large audience for what third parties were making their bread on. There is only so much experimentation a company is going to do before they give up.

I remember their attempt at a sims game, looked hyper cute. Yet it didn't do so hot. I mean, what are we going to say "Well it wasn't the best game ever so what do you expect"? Honestly it was a good attempt and they got little in return. So they just went back to the audience they knew. Its important to know your audience and what they purchase. Casuals? Tough to crack on a console. Difficult to know for sure what they'll like. This is why mobile is still dominated by entrepreneurial upstarts. They threw their die and won the lottery. While on console we know that shooty bang bang games do well with the young male demographic. And that's why you see GTAV on 7th gen machines and not Wii or Wii U.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
I think you're looking at what currently exists and concluding "it must not be possible," which isn't reasonable.

What we can say is that people aren't currently doing it right now and on home consoles. But they are doing it elsewhere: games like Angry Birds and Clash of Clans are clearly driving iOS game adoption broadly. Thus, it's clearly a thing that can happen. You also have the examples you gave: things like Wii Fit or Wii Sports. That shows that not only is it possible, but it's happened on consoles, and happened recently.

I would argue that the current major console publishers are structurally incapable of making these types of games, just as I'd say Rovio is not going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly make a huge, AAA, M rated hit on Xbox. Any company will have a specific set of skills, and as of right now the skill sets of the major console publishers are focused pretty narrowly on the 16-35 male demographic.

Getting more games, therefore, would not be done by getting EA back on board, or getting Ubisoft to rescind their decision, or something. These companies already have their specific expertise, and trying to get them to radically change the companies' business plan is extremely difficult. A more likely solution would be to create whole new third parties that adopt business plans more like your own.

This is how iOS flourished: like Nintendo's systems, iOS (and Android and Facebook, for that matter), mostly got a cold shoulder from the established third parties, even once it was clear that the ecosystem was growing rapidly. As such, new, major third parties grew in their absence; companies like GungHo and Gameloft are now huge corporations in their own right. These markets couldn't be driven by the established players like Take 2 or Ubisoft, because those companies aren't really skilled at making that sort of game. Instead, it had to be driven by new blood with new design philosophies. I am suggesting that Nintendo is in the same position; their approach to game design is philosophically at odds with the major console publishers, so if they want support, they're going to have to foster new publishers who share their philosophy.

Well, I'd agree with most of that. What I was saying is it wouldn't help there sales if third parties were just focusing on making the types of games Nintendo makes that sell on their consoles (i.e. platformers, Kart races, cartoony fighers, cartoony JRPGs like Pokemon etc. etc) as that doesn't broaden the base. None of that is going to get somone like me who doesn't give a shit about those type of games anymore back on board, nor bring in casuals/non-gamers.

I agree if they're ever going to be huge in hardware sales again it will come from expanding the market again the way Wii Sports and Wii Fit did. They aren't getting the core gamers back anytime soon. That will only happen if there's some new fad that comes along that supplants the shooter/sports/racer/gta type games dominating sales and Nintendo happens to have the big exclusive in whatever that area is. Otherwise, they just don't have any exclusives in those genres and aren't going to get any unless they find a mountain of cash to buy up a major western developer.
 

Cosmozone

Member
Imru’ al-Qays;126167756 said:
If the Wii had been of equal power to the PS360 it would have been of equal price as well, and it would not have sold what it did.
True, but I still wish the Wii was a little more powerful. It couldn't really show that it was stronger than it's predecessor. Most of the HD twins' power went into HD resolution, so all the rest had to be a big compromise. That would've been Wii's big chance to push SD to the limit. 60fps to everything, huge amount of objects on screen, particle effects en masse, etc.
Don't know if it would've been enough to win over the male teens, but I would've been extremely happy with that.
 
D

Deleted member 752119

Unconfirmed Member
Why would a developer make Bioshock Infinite for the Wii U when you can just play it on the other system?

This is the question that has to be asked. Is the Nintendo only base really a sizable enough contingent to warrant putting out these ports?

No. And it's further compounded by the fact that pretty much everyone that's Nintendo only (meaning not a PC gamer either) obviously isn't into shooters, GTA type games etc. or they wouldn't ONLY own a console that is pretty much devoid of titles in those genres.
 
Imru’ al-Qays;126162650 said:
Wii U owners just don't care about these games. They don't care about Assassin's Creed, they don't care about ZombiU, they don't care about Wonderful 101, and they won't care about Devil's Third or Bayonetta 2 either. It has nothing to do with some imaginary disrespect the publishers showed to the Wii U audience by releasing the games late or releasing "bad ports with no DLC" or whatever.

The core Nintendo audience has been shrinking since the N64 days. As this audience has shrunk it's become more conservative and more insulated from trends in gaming. They're Nintendo gamers who like Nintendo games and who have explicitly rejected the conventions of the rest of the industry - blood, guns, violence, zombies, etc. At this point I'm not sure there's anything anyone can do about it: this is the audience Nintendo's got and they're never going to be able to train that audience to like mainstream games, nor will they be able to attract core gamers to their platform in large numbers.

Imagine trying to open a restaurant on an island whose inhabitants have for many centuries come to subsist entirely on yams.

I... I don't know what the fuck I just read, tbh. It was generalizing and condescending, that's for sure.

perfection.gif

Absolutely magnificent post, Amir0x! Agree on all counts. Hope you've been able to recuperate btw :).
 

Amir0x

Banned
I agree with the sentiment but I'm not clear on the practicality. Could you elaborate on how exactly Nintendo could go about 'cultivating' suitable third parties?

Allow more third parties to utilize classic Nintendo characters in big game releases or crossovers. Spend more on promising indies and give them the budget to revive the AA category of games on their platforms, a whole legion of games which used to give Nintendo their stellar unique personalities. Approach devs for partnerships on games with themes and adult directions that Nintendo themselves are to scared to develop (or more accurately, inappropriately believe it'd damage their family friendly image - Disney has done fine), and market those titles as if they were just as big as Mario or Zelda or Wii Sports. Come up with their own bold new ideas that highlight why they've always preferred family friendly titles, but doing so whilst casting off the prohibitive net of the expectations and limitations of having to work with a very well established old gaming IP. Don't worry about Mushroom Kingdom, don't worry about how many cameos Luigi needs to make. It doesn't matter if jumping is in this game, and no princess needs saving. Instead, remember the time those games were born in and why they resonated the way the did, and try your damndest to apply those ideals to the new realities of 21st century gaming.

Hire people who actually know how to deal with online functionality, so that your next system makes it a cornerstone and not only competitive but boldly open and original. Unified Account systems. Working with pubs/devs to ensure they can release whatever services they have in mind for the network (same as Sony and Microsoft's), and then offer them various ways you can incentivize they're placing games on their platform it a sort of prioritized way. An occasional marketing deal here, special Nintendo-themed costume pack there... and you start lots of mini Soul Calibur II-esque system-specific boosts. You show publishers and developers you're humbled, and you're not above any sort of mutually beneficial deal. Tell them you have plans to go in bold new directions and to put those games at the forefront with just as much emphasis as our time tested family friendly affairs.

It's not that difficult. Nintendo has only made it difficult.
 
I am getting tired of seeing the notion that "Nintendo gamers" are some strange group that never touch other systems and refuse to play other games. I have other systems. My top games one year were Wonderful 101, Bioshock Infinite, LoU, SM3D World, and Zelda ALBW. Apparently I am only supposed to play Nintendo games and ignore all others.

If you bought W101 then I'm pretty sure he didn't talk about you. Not all WiiU owners play only Nintendo game. I myself own a WiiU and the only game I played on it is MH3U.
 

impact

Banned
Can't blame em after ZombiU was largely ignored despite still being a top 3 game on the console. They supported Wii U really well at first and got nothing in return. Just hope they port ZombiU eventually so more people can play it, even if it'll be a worse game on other platforms.
 
I am getting tired of seeing the notion that "Nintendo gamers" are some strange group that never touch other systems and refuse to play other games. I have other systems. My top games one year were Wonderful 101, Bioshock Infinite, LoU, SM3D World, and Zelda ALBW. Apparently I am only supposed to play Nintendo games and ignore all others.

I am not going to buy a game that has less content and releases late on the Wii U when I can get it cheaper with more stuff. Its that simple. Companies cant even figure out if the DLC will come out to the system half the time. I seems to me some people are more worried about Nintendo getting games that may interest them.

If you were representative of Nintendo gamers games like ZombiU and Wonderful 101 wouldn't be selling so terribly on the Wii U. We know what Wii U gamers like, and it's not what PlayStation and Xbox gamers like.

I... I don't know what the fuck I just read, tbh. It was generalizing and condescending, that's for sure.

I don't see the point in getting offended. You're free to provide evidence that Wii U gamers actually like all the same sorts of games that are popular with the rest of the market, if you have any.
 
Top Bottom