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Ultima 7's weird camera (also does the game hold up?)

120v

Member
i was always intrigued by the game, missed out on crpg stuff in the 90s

nabbed it on GOG and couldn't get anywhere because of the interface, kept trying to play it as a WASD controlled game. but the short bit i got through was pretty fun, weird isometric presentation didn't turn me off at all, though looking at screenshots in 2017 (or any time 15 years earlier) it does look wtf
 

Fugu

Member
I'm a big fan of CRPGs - even ones older than Ultima VII - but this game is impenetrable for me. I've probably put 20 hours into it total across two playthroughs but something gets me everytime.

I can get past the terrible combat and I can stomach the inventory management, but what gets me every time is that, despite all the immersion and world-building (and there's a lot of it to an extent pretty much unparalleled in any other game) the game constantly undermines itself with quests that never quite resolve and dialog that suggests that the characters are unaware of what has happened in the world. It drives me nuts and it totally ruins a game like thisl

As an aside, I think this game is gorgeous. Yes, the perspective is a little odd, but the art is wonderful, and not just for a game released in the early nineties.
 
Ultima VII is still one of my favourite games.

The music, the graphics, the emergence, the NPC scheduling, the day and night cycles and dynamic weather, the vast open world, and the story made a huge impact on me when I loaded it up for the first time decades ago.

The oblique perspective throws some people off but it never fazed me. Really loved how everything interacted with each other, how the whole open world streamed seamlessly from interior to exterior environments, all the little Easter eggs, and the unabashed and unapologetic paradoxically simplistic and complicated nature of the game.

As someone mentioned, the combat was janky as hell and it was essentially akin to letting mad dogs off their leashes and hope for the best kind of affair. The game was also surprisingly gory, blood and guts galore, murdered pets, dead children and babies ... Ultima VII went all in.

I feel that U7 doesn't get enough credit particularly when modern games still can't quite nail the immersion and emergence that Ultima VII nailed effortlessly.

This guy speaks wisdom and truth.

Nothing comes close to Ultima VII. Nothing. Except VI.
 

Crayon

Member
I agree if you play with Exult, you see more tiles and the view is more natural. The busy isometric style is easier to get used to then.
 
How bad is the combat? Like Planescape Torment "can we just get this over with and get to the fun stuff" bad, or actually poorly designed frustrating bad?
 
The combat is just so mechanically slipshod and awkward. Honestly it was pretty bad even for its era ( I played it when it came out) compared to some of its peers. Inventory is a constant annoyance that never goes away. Reagent foolery in particular is misery. There's zero in-game documentation for anything and everything feels alien.

The setting, points of interest, characters, and such are strong points but if you value mechanics at all in your games I'd just youtube U7's story bits.

How bad is the combat? Like Planescape Torment "can we just get this over with and get to the fun stuff" bad, or actually poorly designed frustrating bad?

Bad for its era, hideous now. There is nearly zero feedback for anything you do in combat and the interface will drive you crazy.
 

Aeana

Member
I love Ultima 7. I am extremely curious to hear how someone with a background like yourself would take to it.


It is a great end to a great series of games. I'm glad they never made any games after it.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Complete Ultima VII, combined, make for some of my favorite cRPG memories from my youth. It will forever hold a place in my heart. In many ways, it's a precursor to today's open world RPG design. It fumbles something things. Combat is sloppier than it should be. It has a kind of proto-side quest system that could have used a bit more development. But it remains one of my favorite collection of worlds to just dive into and explore, top-to-bottom, however I see fit. I remember looking through all of the dead fish by that polluted lake looking for the one that swallowed a damn key used to gain access to... I don't know, was it a farmer's shed that contained the Hoe of Destruction or some shit, that I invariably gave to Jaana to wield every single time I ran through the game again?

I love slowly leveling my growing troupe, turning them into a crew of magical weapon-bearing murder-machines. I love managing my growing inventory of magical gear, dedicating one character to hold my food, one to hold my excess gear, one to function as a mobile vault, etc. I even loving looting the world and manually feeding my forever hungry gang of fuckers.

I love the games so much, I even replayed them one last time on my PSP, with relatively terrible controls, via the ExultPSP homebrew.
I have so many fond little memories of similar scenarios like the polluted lake one I wrote above, from all around the two games' sprawling campaigns.
 

Tanis

Member
How bad is the combat? Like Planescape Torment "can we just get this over with and get to the fun stuff" bad, or actually poorly designed frustrating bad?

The combat is fairly easy. You'll have to micro manage your party a bit to make sure they don't all run headlong into big groups of enemies and aggro them all at once.

The game hides lots of stats - from memory there is no in game way to tell if one sword does more damage than another, or if one piece of armor provides more protection than another. You mostly rely on obvious cues to tell what is better (plate mail provides more protection than leather etc).

Spell casting is very annoying though. You need individual reagents for each cast. There is an item in the Ultima 7 part II that removes the reagent requirement. The good news is apart from certain quest requirements you can ignore magic and just hack everything to death.
 
It is a great end to a great series of games. I'm glad they never made any games after it.

Savage. I still believe VI is the pinnacle, myself, but everyone has that one title that reached them at the right time to become a pivotal part of their gaming bildungsroman.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Savage. I still believe VI is the pinnacle, myself, but everyone has that one title that reached them at the right time to become a pivotal part of their gaming bildungsroman.

She's not really wrong, IMO. Pagan and IX were so far removed from anything recognizably Ultima, it's hard to believe they share a name.
That said, IV, V, VI, and both parts of VII (plus expansions) are easy recommendations in my eyes. They're all dated as hell in one way or another, but they all still have something to offer to folks, even today.
 

Goatless

Neo Member
Combat can be bad but it's not unbearable bad. You can get up to 7 companions so it's going to be a bit messy and while meele weapons might be the stronger choice (and less tedious since you don't have to carry arrow/bolts or collect the missed shots, throwing weapons drop to the ground on a miss) i always had quite a few ranged ones so that they don't clump up too much.

I enjoyed the Combat if it wasn't in a narrow space full with deadly traps.
 

The Wart

Member
I played it for the first time a couple years ago. Was a JRPG console-only player for most of my life, but about 5 years ago started diving into the cRPG well.

1) First thing is that, as others have said, Exult is a must. It lets you put a background against the text, which makes it actually legible, and smooths the painfully jerky scrolling. I honestly would not have been able to play the game without those quality of life improvements.

2) The writing is incredible. Every NPC has a meaningful story. Every town is chock full of pathos, humor, grand tragedy and the rich texture of everyday life. From a modern point of view, this is the aspect of the game that holds up the best. Indeed, the writing stands head and tail over modern open-world RPGs (excepting Witcher 3 but that's more a linear story that is set in an open world).

3) The game is fascinating in that it goes all-in on a simulationist approach that has been all but abandoned by modern RPGs. Detailed NPC schedules where they work, eat, and sleep, tons of possible interactions in the world, lack of visible stats associated with weapons and armor, an inventory that mimics sorting through an actual backpack, and so on. It's sophistication in this regard is matched now only by immersive sims, and those work at a much smaller scale than what Ultima 7 attempted.

4) The game also makes clear why modern "mainstream" games have abandoned that simulationist approach. The core problem is that a lot of the simulationist aspects just aren't much fun. For instance, your backpack has a "space limit" where you can only have so much volume stuffed into it. Realistic, in some sense, but the volume occupied by any given object is not communicated, leading to a huge amount of trial-and-error just trying to get everything into your party's inventory. Even worse, it's super easy for a key item to literally get buried in the bottom of your pack and it will be incredibly annoying.

Not only is this not fun, it's also not really realistic. If you were "really" in the game world, you could just see the volume of an item and when your backpack was full. If you needed to find something at the bottom of your pack you could just empty your pack on the ground all at once rather than dragging out one item at a time. You would know how to evaluate the quality of a weapon!!!! So the simulationist aspect really takes away information and capabilities that you realistically should have.

5) Exploring the world is fun, but gets tedious as it certainly will not inspire the sense of awe today as it would have in 1995. Find the magic carpet ASAP (use a guide if you have to) to minimize frustration.

6) Combat is... well it's just there. Look up the location of the most powerful spells and stock up on the necessary ingredients so you can blast through it as fast as possible. Exult also enables mid-battle pausing which makes spellcasting in combat much easier.

7) Don't be afraid to consult a guide if you're stuck. The game can be infuriatingly obtuse. It's very easy to miss a crucial clue and have no indication of why you can't progress the main storyline.

I guess this sounds pretty negative, but I really enjoyed playing the game.
 

1upsuper

Member
Ultima 6 and 7 are two of my favourite games of all time. 7 in particular is a must play for youngsters, if only to realise that open world isn't some modern invention. Ultima 7 did it way better a long time ago. Npcs, job cycles, interactive bread making."Modern games could be better but cpu constraints!!!" Give me a break, it ran on a 386.

This is actual open world, not the modern "open landscape" where things vanish when you turn a corner. It is magical.

But I feel it will be a tough sell because of the combat (you enter combat mode and random shit happens) and the lack of hand holding in quests. This means the game demands a lot, but I hope you can get into it, if just to cast some fun spells.

6 is the better one though. Besides giving a mouse a boomerang you ... actually no that is enough.

Give both a go.
Ultima is, in my opinion, the single most underrated game franchise today relative to its contributions. Its importance in the history of games cannot be understated. The first few played an integral part in the formation of console JRPGs, Ultima Underworld sowed the seeds for the modern FPS genre, and VII helped pave the way for a new age of W/CRPGs that would last for years. Plus, the games themselves tackled ideas and concepts that games just don't do anymore. Just take Ultima IV. How many RPGs task you with becoming a better, well-rounded individual? It's OK, I'll wait.
 

JCG

Member
She's not really wrong, IMO. Pagan and IX were so far removed from anything recognizably Ultima, it's hard to believe they share a name.
That said, IV, V, VI, and both parts of VII (plus expansions) are easy recommendations in my eyes. They're all dated as hell in one way or another, but they all still have something to offer to folks, even today.

I do prefer VII and the earlier Ultima games myself, but in retrospect...Pagan actually had potential. It had a pretty interesting setting with a few good ideas. Unfortunately, they clearly rushed the production and introducing the jumping mechanic was a poor choice. It was one step forward and two steps back, which is a shame, while IX was just a disaster.
 

Eusis

Member
Ultima IX sounds like what happens when you pull an OK looking fanfic (at a glance anyway) off the Internet and try to use it to wrap up your series.

EDIT: I had been looking forward to IX based off of vaguely fond memories of IV on NES and knowing it as one of THE key RPG series. And also getting a gaming capable PC for the time, but we all know how that game ultimately turned out. Later stuff like Elder Scrolls and Witcher 3 worked better to realize that promise from what I looked at then.
 

Iolo

Member
Hell yeah it's worth playing. The story is great.

One thing I didn't see mentioned that Exult fixes was the "hunt the key" nonsense -- IIRC you can just press K to open any door if you possess the key, rather than digging through a hundred keys in your backpack. The add-on provided a similar capability. I think you can also feed your party via a keystroke too (hunger being rather archaic).

FWIW I did not have any problems solving this when it came out, without a hint guide. I did need one hint for part 2, bought the hint guide, and was pissed when it turned out to be a fake wall that I kept missing. (Also note: if you click on a wall and it says "Wall" instead of "wall", pay attention.) I've always felt that part 1 was fair though.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
I do prefer VII and the earlier Ultima games myself, but in retrospect...Pagan actually had potential. It had a pretty interesting setting with a few good ideas. Unfortunately, they clearly rushed the production and introducing the jumping mechanic was a poor choice. It was one step forward and two steps back, which is a shame, while IX was just a disaster.

Potential, but it didn't live up to it. There's something to be said about being forced into circumstances that might require you to sacrifice those ideals that you strove for in Ultima IV and that you, as the Avatar, came to embody throughout that game and those that followed. But Pagan wasn't the right approach, IMO. Taking the player agency out of those decisions was a terrible idea. And converting the game into Super Avatar Bros. was an even worse one. All of this could have been somewhat forgivable, just to get more insight into and context for the Guardian. But then, of course, Ultima IX followed, and oh god why?

Hell yeah it's worth playing. The story is great.

One thing I didn't see mentioned that Exult fixes was the "hunt the key" nonsense -- IIRC you can just press K to open any door if you possess the key, rather than digging through a hundred keys in your backpack. The add-on provided a similar capability. I think you can also feed your party via a keystroke too (hunger being rather archaic).

Yeah, IIRC, Exult bakes Ultima VII Part 2's keyring into Ultima VII Park 1 (along with a few other of Part 2's improvements). Or, at the very least, allows you to apply a keyring mod to Part 1. I don't recall the exact circumstances. AND AUTO-FEED BUTTONS SUCK. I loved managing my food stores. But yeah, that's there if you can't be bothered with something so old fashioned. :)
 

Eusis

Member
Probably worth noting for anyone willing to try to dip their toes in is that GOG provides the hint books and all that documentation type stuff the games originally came with. Doubly nice to load that all up on a tablet.
 

Northeastmonk

Gold Member
I don't mind the over the top view. What I have been having issues with is the older Elder Scrolls games. Those can be difficult to maneuver especially if you're trying to enjoy them for their detail and narrative.

It's all how you perceive things. I haven't really had issues with going back, but I did have to uninstall Daggerfall.

Oh well, I have the majority of the Ultima games on GoG, but it's all based on my perception when I play. There's only so much effort I can put into a game until I need it to give me something back for all my hard efforts.

Note: those maps are neat with the GoG version. The dialogue to go with the maps is not that interesting. It's great for those really into the world.
 

Aeana

Member
Dear people stanning for Ultima 8,


7yrulsc.png
 

psyfi

Banned
I already have a strong bias against games with isometric cameras, so there is absolutely no way I'd ever play Ultima 7. That's too much for me, nope.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
I have a weird-ass Ultima VII (Part 1 only, sadly) guide-book that is more of a novelization than a distinct recipe of maps and tips or walkthroughs. Was a damn interesting read when I was a kid, and it even provided coordinates for the important shit they discovered on the game that you could then look up on, yes, of course, the provided maps. I loved reading through it almost as much as I loved playing the game.
 

JCG

Member
Dear people stanning for Ultima 8,

Hey, I merely think seeing a cleaned up version of Ultima 8 would have been cool (and it certainly could use a fan remake).

But sadly, that's not what we ended up getting. I wouldn't really recommend the game. Not at the time and not in 2017.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
The best part of U8 is the decapitation execution at the very beginning.
The game is literally straight downhill (off a sheer cliff) from there.
 

Kvik

Member
Shit, even Iolo's here. Please don't reprimand me for stealing from NPCs. :p

Before the invention of keyring in Serpen't Isle, god forbid you need a certain key for a dungeon, because inventory management consist of rummaging inside your backpack for 1/2 an hour because you forgot to put it inside another bag :p
 

1upsuper

Member
While we're on the subject, are Ultima I-III worth visiting if I hopped on with IV? I've heard II in particular is pretty rough and kinda proof-of-concepty, but I think I've heard good things about Exodus..?
 
I always found the Serpent Isle standalone sequel to be more accessible than the original Ultima 7. They made a few QOL improvements and it was just more fun to play.

Ultima_VII_Serpent_Isle_box.jpg


I tried installing Ultima 7 recently using whatever tools are out there and it still runs like crap. I remember back when it came out originally it pushed me to upgrade to 1MB of ram, IIRC. And then the memory managent required to run the game was like fucking wizardry to get right, and then the game ran at like 2 fps. And I still played the hell out of it because the world was larger and more detailed than anything prior, by a long shot.
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
Whyyyyyy!?

I'd rather play the Crusader: No Remorse than that Ultima.

If the implication here is that Crusader: No Remorse is a lesser of 2 evils, and as such bad...

Well we're just going to have to do pistols at dawn.

giphy.gif


While we're on the subject, are Ultima I-III worth visiting if I hopped on with IV? I've heard II in particular is pretty rough and kinda proof-of-concepty, but I think I've heard good things about Exodus..?

Exodus is the first game in the series that feels like a proper RPG. Ultima 1 and 2 are kind of worth playing for just how utterly batshit insane they are (you become a star pilot, fly into space and fight tie fighters at one point...) but really aren't very fun. You can learn everything you need to know about Ultima 1 & 2 from Spoony's Retrospective. Ultima 3 is pretty fun though, the NES version is actually a really solid way to play it too.

Counterpoint: kicking zombie children in the face.

Counter counter point. You are forced to murder children in every Ultima from 4 onwards, so you can do so while playing a game that isn't a festering piece of shit if that's your thing.
 

Renekton

Member
While we're on the subject, are Ultima I-III worth visiting if I hopped on with IV? I've heard II in particular is pretty rough and kinda proof-of-concepty, but I think I've heard good things about Exodus..?
I and II are ridiculous, you'll be cruising around a medieval land in a jet-powered car blasting orcs with a phazor, then flying off into space in a shuttle. II is especially broken where levelling up does not work. Don't play them.

III is quite playable though for an ancient CRPG.
 

Danneee

Member
Ultima VII was my GTA back in the day, the amount f shit you could do was amazing. All the secrets and stuff...
I don't think I ever played it normally, just cheating, blacksmiths chimney and teleporting myself around. Along with Settlers 1 and Civ 1 it's the PC game I've spent the most time with.
 
D

Deleted member 286591

Unconfirmed Member
Oh god the memories... Loved this game so much.

Ultima Online too, remember a friend in the US who was in the beta and shared his account with me, the shock this game was... In my top 5 fondest vidyagame memories with EverQuest 1 real close.

About Ultime Online, is it still possible to play with the OG 2d graphics and vanilla rules and world, like EQ with Project1999 ? I would be so down to play again.
 

Anoxida

Member
Damn boys you made me thirsty. I bought it from gog last night and have installed exult and played around with it a little bit. Still not sure what all the options do. Will read up on the readme later today unless there's a good Youtube video about exult? Will also follow that guys recommendation abput getting the magic carpet and strong magic asap because I accidently attacked a guard and I could tell the combat is pretty bad.
 

Oni Jazar

Member
I have a weird-ass Ultima VII (Part 1 only, sadly) guide-book that is more of a novelization than a distinct recipe of maps and tips or walkthroughs. Was a damn interesting read when I was a kid, and it even provided coordinates for the important shit they discovered on the game that you could then look up on, yes, of course, the provided maps. I loved reading through it almost as much as I loved playing the game.

The hintboooks for the Ultima games were all amazing. It's awesome that gog includes them.

Ultima 7 is perhaps my all time favorite game. Truly the first real immersive game world.

Anoxida don't rush for the carpet or spells just play the game and get into the characters. The combat isn't great but it's mostly harmless. No need to cheat for help, I think the carpet would be harmful for the first time. It could lead to you missing a lot of nuances the game has to offer.

Stay grounded. Talk to everyone. SOLVE THE MURDER MYSTERY.
 

Lord Panda

The Sea is Always Right
Dear people stanning for Ultima 8,

I beat that game before there were patches, GameFAQs,etc. I loved that game in spite of EA and their shareholders.

The amount of stuff they cut from that game that linked it back to U7 and Underworld is really depressing.

Man loved the manuals for Ultima VIIs through to VIII ... lost count how many times I read them cover to cover.
 

Anoxida

Member
The hintboooks for the Ultima games were all amazing. It's awesome that gog includes them.

Ultima 7 is perhaps my all time favorite game. Truly the first real immersive game world.

Anoxida don't rush for the carpet or spells just play the game and get into the characters. The combat isn't great but it's mostly harmless. No need to cheat for help, I think the carpet would be harmful for the first time. It could lead to you missing a lot of nuances the game has to offer.

Stay grounded. Talk to everyone. SOLVE THE MURDER MYSTERY.

Ok ok. I'll go with the flow.
 
6 is the better one though. Besides giving a mouse a boomerang you ... actually no that is enough.

Lol. True.

Cherry is like the best party character ever created. Speaking of that little mouse, I remember being able to split the party whenever I wanted in U6. Using Cherry to get the rest of the party out of prison by crawling inside a mouse hole and stealing the key from the guards, was so delightful; or casting an invisibility spell on that little bitch and send her on shrines reckon, awesome.

Was party splitting still a thing in U7? I can't remember.
 

mclem

Member
What are you talking about there is no Ultima 8 or even 9, the series ended with 7.

I love Ultima 7. I am extremely curious to hear how someone with a background like yourself would take to it.


It is a great end to a great series of games. I'm glad they never made any games after it.



...Underworld 2 came after 7. I do hope you're not impugning that!


Trying to remember, did money have weight in Ultima 7? I know an Ultima irritated me on that front, I think it was 7?
 

Thorgal

Member
It's considered to be the pinnacle of the Ultima series.

I still get sad that Ultima 8 and 9 sucked so hard they killed the series.
thanks alot EA :(
 

mclem

Member
While we're on the subject, are Ultima I-III worth visiting if I hopped on with IV? I've heard II in particular is pretty rough and kinda proof-of-concepty, but I think I've heard good things about Exodus..?

Of the Ultima series, while I've owned them all, I've only actually finished I, IV and VIII (well, and UW2). I think I's actually a great game, as long as you're okay with how primitive it is in many ways, and the fact that it got an EGA remake makes it a lot more palatable than the CGA II and III. It's fun to see so many ideas, before the model of 'how these games should work' was solidified.

II is a mess. An interesting mess, to be fair, but still an almighty mess. So much of the game is actually irrelevant.

III, I've not got into, but it's a much more coherent game than II is, so there's that going for it.

(There was a great 1-6 bundle available in the early days of CD-ROM which set me in good stead. All the documentation, too, although the maps were on cardboard not cloth)
 
The best part of U8 is the decapitation execution at the very beginning.
The game is literally straight downhill (off a sheer cliff) from there.

Funny I was going to make a joke exactly along those lines. Besides that scene which set everything up beautifully you also had that mage guy who teleported in and blew you up if you tried to do the wrong thing.

Boy did they fuck it up from there. And by them, I mean EA.

A fun Ultima 7 fact. It was made by something like 28 people and ran on devices that these days would barely power a printer. But despite that, it still packed more gameplay punch then all the modern open world games combined.

How bad is the combat? Like Planescape Torment "can we just get this over with and get to the fun stuff" bad, or actually poorly designed frustrating bad?

It isn't frustrating, it is just a non event. The curve sort of goes like this:

* You enter combat and things start happening randomly around you. You win which is good or you die which is bad. You have little control over which is which.
* So you start playing a bit more carefully and level up your stats. As you do this, you realise that you can actually max your stats, really, really easily with almost no effort. So you do.
* You enter combat and everything dies.

So just stick with it. After your first few encounters you'll be clearing out a den of dragons without even thinking about it. Although you may be thinking how awesome it is that there is actually a den of dragons.

Ultima 6 fun fact. The prostitutes respond to a surprisingly diverse range of words.

I love Ultima.

Ultima series fun fact. The music is fucking amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X1gC3BLq2w
 
U7 blew me away when it released, after I got blown away trying to get enough conventional memory to even run it. Serpent Isle was even better.

The game silently referencing Origin's evil takeover by EA flew over my head until years later.

And they followed that up with Pagan and Ascension...... get pissed just thinking about it.
 
Actual More_badass if you can stomach U6 (and I know you can because you play all sorts of cool games) you should also try ultima: worlds of adventure 2: martian dreams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima:_Worlds_of_Adventure_2:_Martian_Dreams

The cast list alone should sell it.

If people can't play the old games and this is fair enough, at least watch Spoony's retrospective http://spoonyexperiment.com/game-reviews/ultima-retrospective/. It covers the huge highs and terrible lows of the series extremely well. The interview with Lord British at the end is particularly cathartic.
 
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