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Ultima Underworld series being revived as Underworld Ascension by Paul Neurath
- Thread starter Nirolak
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Yeah, the influence of Ultima Underworld is pretty huge. It has its own little branch in the FPS family tree that some GAFers worked on a while back.
It could be considered indirectly responsible for the Souls series, since those are descended from King's Field, which was a sort of stripped-down action-y version of Ultima Underworld.
Also, we partially owe the existence of Doom's game engine to John Carmack seeing an unfinished version of UU in 1990 and deciding he could write a faster texture mapper.
More people need to learn this, and they need to go play Underworld 1 and 2. These games still have incredible puzzle, level design, and interactivity. Their quality has not been equaled or exceeded to this day, except by the series' direct descendents (System Shock, Deus Ex). The combat isn't even bad. If you can play Skyrim, you can play Underworld. On that subject, I'd rather play Underworld, with all its ancient graphics and interface design, than play Skyrim again.
We like to talk about Deus Ex and even System Shock 2, but it all started with Ultima Underworld.
On topic: I will buy this.
Further Aside: Yes, UU owes a debt to Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder. As Dungeon Master evolved Wizardry's brand of first person dungeon crawling, UU evolved dungeon crawling from tile based to real time.
BTW, these games are also still fun. In fact, they've probably held up the best of the old computer RPGs. They play exactly like Legend of Grimrock. They also look nice, with "charming" sprite based graphics. I recommend Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder 1 and 2, and Lands of Lore Throne of Chaos (featuring the voice acting of Patrick Stewart).
This. I'd also count the Souls games as one of those crossover points, or at least the reemergence of a once-obscure tangent. Etrian Odyssey might be another example. People are wondering when grid-based dungeon crawlers will come back, but they kind of already came back in Japan a few years ago.
I agree too, but I don't think you can do anything to convince today's Skyrim fans to even pay attention to UU short of releasing a console version with a completely re-done control scheme. The whole reason games like BioShock and Skyrim blew up is because of what they did to the control interface and the fact that they came out on consoles. It doesn't matter that UU will practically run on your toaster at this point. People just don't want to deal with the mental barrier of installing and working with a PC game, much less learning UU's controls.
I was trying to say that the combat in UU is largely similar to Elder Scrolls (unsurprising, as Elder Scrolls Arena was heavily influenced by Underworld, by the ES lead designer's own statements). The rest of the controls are not that difficult to pick up.
Anyway, I don't think I can convince 20 million people to play Ultima Underworld, but if I can get just 1 person to do so, I think it's worth a couple minutes of posting. Then that person might convince another person. And in time, the design lessons of the games might pass on to more modern projects and by increased consumer support for such projects.
As for BioShock and Skyrim, I think half the reason is the improve graphics quality. It's easy to sell someone on a game when you show them a sweeping snowy vista. It practically sells itself, regardless of whether the game is good or not. I'd say the interface in Skyrim is actually sort of clunky, really. BiosShock is pretty simple, though.
Sentenza
Member
It's amost funny how today TES is the giant who seems impossible to defeat while at the time the first one was generally received by many core RPG fans as "the poor's man Ultima Underworld".
FlyingSaucer
Banned
BTW, who here played the Japanese PS1 version of UU ? I've always wondered about how it was changed from the original PC version.
Some years algo I also found out about what looks like a japanese novel based on the game, if someone can confirm it ?
http://i.imgur.com/2BGwz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IG0v2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AzhP4.jpg
Art is by Mila Aizawa (Blue Forest Monogatari)
If you look at the history of the Japanese branch of the Wizardry titles, they never really got away.
Some years algo I also found out about what looks like a japanese novel based on the game, if someone can confirm it ?
http://i.imgur.com/2BGwz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IG0v2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AzhP4.jpg
Art is by Mila Aizawa (Blue Forest Monogatari)
If you look at the history of the Japanese branch of the Wizardry titles, they never really got away.
Getting into a shoving match about who is biggest is silly. Mario is one of the most important series in gaming, as far as influence on the design of other games goes, without a doubt. Ultima is as well. So is Doom/Quake. So is Dune 2.
Easy to be a giant in a field with little to no competition
Easy to be a giant in a field with little to no competition
Lord_Balkan
Member
Mechanically, I don't really see a big difference. They both have combat based on character roles / statistics. The statistics in JRPGs are less known to the player, while in RPGs- players have complete control on how they assign points (direct result of a more accessible ultimo). Both have levels/progression, importance on stories, turn based combat. Both have been linear or more free roam. Thematically now? They are miles apart, but mechanically? They both work with very similar systems.
I am very excited for Ultima Underworld and now that Paul and Tim are on board. If this goes well, I kind of hope they work on a real Thief reboot.
Lord_Balkan
Member
This is basically my stance on it. I see lots of similarities between say Fallout and FF7. There are differences, but I wouldn't characterize FF7 as "Japanese" in its gameplay, but rather, in its theme.
It would be the biggest plot twist if Ken Levine shut down Irrational to join OtherSide Entertainment. Bigger than Infinite.
According to Wiki release dates, cRPGs basically stopped coming out in Japan after around 1994. None of the Infinity Engine games even showed up in that market (although Final Fantasy XII has odd similarities).
Fantastic. I'm sadly/fortunately old enough to have played the original and its sequel when they were first released, back on my 33mhz 386. Along with Wolfenstein, playing first-person in those early days was mind-blowing.
The sense of immersion in UU in particular was incredible - I wish I got the same feelings from today's games.
The sense of immersion in UU in particular was incredible - I wish I got the same feelings from today's games.
UW2 was the first "proper" computer game I ever completed. I will never forget how immersive and believable those worlds felt at the time. There's a cavern with lava walls hidden in the depths of the starting world. I remember getting my ass kicked down there too early, but coming back later in the game and taking down the thing that scared me. I remember feeling so alone and lost in the ice world. If they can bring those feelings back, I am SOLD.
Lord_Balkan
Member
Here are some not-to-old videos of interviews of Paul and Tim Stellmach. There are others as well like Ken Levine. They all talk about their time @ Looking Glass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02agCNRnp7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj1w-8Bb_9w
According to this interview, Paul owns "Underworld" but EA owns Ultima. So for a new Underworld to happen, EA and Paul would have to agree. He said he has been trying to get EA to let him make a new underworld game for a while but they have been on the fence. He also said he is not sure if he could just call it Underworld, because since EA owns the trademark to Ultima, if Underworld feels like Ultima Underworld (which obviously it will) it may be infringing on trademarks since consumers can be confused on wether or not it is a sequel. So from this information, it seems like EA might be involved, or at least gave the thumbs up. I really recommend listening to the podcast, especially since it is only 1-2 years old.
EDIT: And Tim Stellmach seems to be a poster at the looking glass forums http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144106
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02agCNRnp7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj1w-8Bb_9w
According to this interview, Paul owns "Underworld" but EA owns Ultima. So for a new Underworld to happen, EA and Paul would have to agree. He said he has been trying to get EA to let him make a new underworld game for a while but they have been on the fence. He also said he is not sure if he could just call it Underworld, because since EA owns the trademark to Ultima, if Underworld feels like Ultima Underworld (which obviously it will) it may be infringing on trademarks since consumers can be confused on wether or not it is a sequel. So from this information, it seems like EA might be involved, or at least gave the thumbs up. I really recommend listening to the podcast, especially since it is only 1-2 years old.
EDIT: And Tim Stellmach seems to be a poster at the looking glass forums http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144106
OmegaDL50
Member
What about Torment: Tides to Numenera.
It is supposedly more or less a spiritual follow up to Planescape Torment, even having Torment in the title despite not using the D&D license or Planescape setting.
Pillar's of Eternity is also doing something similar being heavily reminiscent of Baldur's Gate 1 / 2, just not using the D&D license or the D20 combat system and instead using a similar fantasy inspired world and dice-roll based combat system.
Shroud of the Avatar is another game as well created by Richard "Lord British" Garriott himself no less, even using both the Avatar and Britannia references despite not using the Ultima license.
If Torment or Shroud of the Avatar can reasonably get away with what their doing. Then a new Underworld title without the Ultima references or names can work without any legal issues.
toddhunter
Member
Updated chart:
(Yeah I'm still bitter)
If EA has nothing to do with this, then it could be great. UU2 had little to do with Ultima anyway, so I hope they just keep the inspiration and do their own thing.
I remember a while ago, RevenantKioku (a regular in our RPG threads even though he seems to be pretty MIA these last few years) was showing pics of him playing the Japanese version of Baldur's Gate, so I'm pretty sure at least a few of those later 90's western RPGs came out over there.
hooijdonk17
Member
Unfortunately, this is not so easy. I played UU1 (never finished it) and played UU2 for AGES (but again never finished it, the game was immense!) - so I grabbed them at a GOG sale and tried to play them. It's just not possible. Playing them on a 640x480 CRT is one thing; you can actually see shit. Playing them in a 640x480 window or shittily upscaled on an LCD panel is something else. Coupled with a terribly clunky UI, it becomes nigh unbearable pretty fast..
I LOVED UU, but it aged pretty badly in terms of UI, graphics and gameplay. I wish there was something similar to EXALT for the Underworld games.. How come no one dug into its engine and modded it like the Doom engine or ported it to the Doom engine or whatever?
hooijdonk17
Member
That project is incomplete and as good as dead now though, isn't it? Such a shame..
Sentenza
Member
Origin at its peak. Both still unsurpassed in many ways.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
Coincidentally, 1992 was also the year they were acquired by Electronic Arts.
BrassDragon
Member
RPG grognards: first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you drown them in Kickstarter money.
Sentenza
Member
...It suddenly makes sense, when you think about it.
Lord_Balkan
Member
That is just what Paul said in the podcast. I don't personally know one way or another.
Yeah there's no way I can get complete information on that. I think I remember hearing one thing that put the Japanese market off WRPGs was a really bad Japanese localization of one of the isometric games. I can't remember if it was Baldur's Gate 1 or Diablo 1 or what.
This has been one of my biggest disappointments -- that there's no complete source port for UU. I think someone is trying to put together the Stygian Abyss in that new game Delver.
UUW retrospective with Paul Neurath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sh_DY28wl4#t=46
I don't completely agree, and I think this sort of "old PC games play bad" attitude has kept a lot of great games from getting the exposure they deserve. Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder are still completely playable today, and there's nothing wrong with their sprite based graphics. In fact, I think many late 80s and early 90s PC games have quite nice sprite work.
Underworld 1 and 2 may be a little rougher in terms of UI, with their primitive mouse based interfaces, but so are Baldur's Gate and Fallout. Heck, even Oblivion and Skyrim have fairly janky and obtuse interfaces. And the sprites in BG and Fallout have aged even worse. They're just plain ugly with horrible animations, without any of the charm of the sprites in Underworld 1 and 2. I mean this is not that bad looking a game:
Definitely not compared to this visual mess:
Nor is getting them to run much of a problem now, what with the GOG self install packages. At one time it was more difficult, when we had to manually launch DOSBox with all its parameters.
It's my hope that as more people get into PC gaming, they'll take a look at the generations of classics before the standard late 90s go-tos (Baldur's Gate, Fallout, and Planescape Torment). Because games like Dungeon Master, Ultima VI and VII, Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore Throne of Chaos, and other great old RPGs are still good today, with some of them of greater historical importance.
Wiktor
Member
Ultima IX can be rescued by mods though. There are unofficial patches made by ex Origin folk, then unnofficial fan ones that change the gameplay, economy and storyline. With all of those it's actually a damn good RPG, definitely a lot better than U8: Pagan ever was.
Plus even in it's broken form IX was surprisingly influential. The whole Gothic series and similiar titles were definitely inspired by Ascension.
Just take it with you.
Member
I finally played the Underworld games last year, and I enjoyed them. The first game was pretty good, and the second improved upon the first in many ways. Unfortunately, I ran into an issue in the second game which stopped my playthrough dead in its tracks and really put me off the game. I'd like to get back to it at some point, but probably not for a while.
I don't completely agree, and I think this sort of "old PC games play bad" attitude has kept a lot of great games from getting the exposure they deserve. Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder are still completely playable today, and there's nothing wrong with their sprite based graphics. In fact, I think many late 80s and early 90s PC games have quite nice sprite work.
Underworld 1 and 2 may be a little rougher in terms of UI, with their primitive mouse based interfaces, but so are Baldur's Gate and Fallout. Heck, even Oblivion and Skyrim have fairly janky and obtuse interfaces. And the sprites in BG and Fallout have aged even worse. They're just plain ugly with horrible animations, without any of the charm of the sprites in Underworld 1 and 2. I mean this is not that bad looking a game:
Definitely not compared to this visual mess:
Nor is getting them to run much of a problem now, what with the GOG self install packages. At one time it was more difficult, when we had to manually launch DOSBox with all its parameters.
It's my hope that as more people get into PC gaming, they'll take a look at the generations of classics before the standard late 90s go-tos (Baldur's Gate, Fallout, and Planescape Torment). Because games like Dungeon Master, Ultima VI and VII, Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore Throne of Chaos, and other great old RPGs are still good today, with some of them of greater historical importance.
Nah bruh. I started a whole thread about this a while ago, and the answer I got is that console gamers simply do not want to deal with the interfaces of most PC games, especially PC games from 20 years ago. Even the interface of Thief Gold and Thief II is too messy for a lot of people to go back and play, so they stick with 2014 THIEF. You have to admit, in terms of controls, 80's and 90's PC games are a lot less accessible than even contemporary console games. For these reasons, most Fallout 3 fans aren't going to go back and try Fallout 1 and 2. Most Dragon Age fans aren't going to go back and try Baldur's Gate (maybe the iPad version). And many BioShock fans still refuse to put up with System Shock 2's controls. A lot of it is simply because these games don't work with controllers -- a shitload of people don't want anything to do with a keyboard.
Sentenza
Member
Ironically, while I can see the argument for "clumsy interfaces" when it comes to really old games and precursors of entire genres like Underworld (which simply pre-dates what now we consider the "standard controls for first person games") I still think that many of the games you listed (System Shock 2, Thief 2, Baldur's Gate) were blatantly better than their modern "counterparts" even in terms of interface.
Fallout 2 is a bit of a special snowflake, in the sense that I think the interface was in fact a bit messy and sub-optimal, but on the other hand surprisingly enough its modern take in Fallout 3 is even worse and fucking ATROCIOUS.
Wiktor
Member
Heh. Their loss. That's why for every two new games I finish I also finish one oldie.
I find a lot of even very old pcgames still perfectly playable. The biggest problem is indeed the interface, but getting used to it never takes more than half an hour and after it happens the gameplay itself is very often surprisingly good instead of feeling outdated.
hooijdonk17
Member
I just had to chime in and say that UU's biggest problem is NOT its graphics (not that those aged beautifully or anything), I can live with them. The major problem is the UI and controls. The most important part of a 3D dungeon game in particular, movement, is absolutely terrible.
Don't get me wrong, I loved it for what it was at the time! I just can't go back and re-play it. After a while trying to turn left and right or look around myself becomes unbearable. The game really needs DOOM level of horizontal mouselook and WASD movement support. If someone modded bette movement controls into this game, I'd gladly donate to their mod project.
Don't get me wrong, I loved it for what it was at the time! I just can't go back and re-play it. After a while trying to turn left and right or look around myself becomes unbearable. The game really needs DOOM level of horizontal mouselook and WASD movement support. If someone modded bette movement controls into this game, I'd gladly donate to their mod project.
Wiktor
Member
I didn't have this much troubles when replaying it about a year ago. But I mostly played it on keyboard, using mouse solely to use other interface elements. Worked pretty well.
PC classic commentary: Ultima Underworld with Paul Neurath
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sh_DY28wl4
60 minutes long.
EDIT: Already posted. But of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sh_DY28wl4
60 minutes long.
EDIT: Already posted. But of course
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