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Unseen 64: Nintendo's Project H.A.M.M.E.R: The Untold Story

Terrell

Member
Must have been awful for NST trying to make the game fun, but the Japanese executives being obsessed in removing the good parts of it (the tone and art) because they couldn't understand it.

Their first attempt to tweak the game seemed to focus on bringing in destructible environments and making that a core part of the game. There wasn't an immediate push to reduce the mature tone. The core gameplay as it existed was just... meh. And a lot of the people at E3 who actually played the demo said the same thing. So something had to be changed at the fundamental level.

Glad some posters are pointing out the obvious. This is a one-sided account comprised mainly of anonymous sources. It's an interesting tale, and doubtless some of it is true, but caveat lector just the same.

Yeah, that's definitely my takeaway on this. I don't think anyone can disagree that there was a management issue, but I don't necessarily think it was how it's being presented by the former employee(s) and was likely addressed by the entire staff poorly.

Jesus.

One of the most xenophobic stories I've ever heard.

"It's all the evil Japanese people's fault!"

Yeah, this is my other big takeaway from the story. The fact that we have employee(s) throwing around overtly xenophobic statements with regards to management and terribly one-sided accounts about the situation doesn't really speak all that well of the staff that was in the picture in the first place; xenophobia doesn't just magically appear, after all, and management was hardly solely responsible for the creation of what was described at E3 as a boring game, so of course they'd want to make changes. And supposedly racist managers somehow getting off scott-free in a large multinational corporation like Nintendo? Yeah, sorry, something's off about that.

I will say that despite reporting what was heard from former employee(s) verbatim, an attempt was made to at least even things out in the video and not squarely lay blame in one direction beyond what was said.
 

AwShucks

Member
Let me just say this was the best demo I played at e3 the year it was there. It was fun and felt more natural with the controls than most everything else. I remember it not looking bad either.

Shame it was cancelled.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
Also, the reports from Next Level Games working with Nintendo are extremely positive, and it shows in their games, where they have a lot of freedom (I'm still surprised by what they did with Mario Strikers).

They don't have that much freedom; they found out they were being "given" Luigi's Mansion during a prototype for a totally unrelated project.
 

RiverBed

Banned
This sounds more like a massive cultural clash where the Japanese team shat all over them just because.

There is no such thing as 'just because' in large scale business. It's unfortunate what happened. I wish I knew more, but it is unlikely much details would emerge.
 

Meffer

Member
I don't think the attitude of the Japanese producers is that surprising. This is pretty much the same story as Metroid Prime, Miyamoto turned up and shat all over Retro until they shaped up.
Except Retro was a mess then until he showed up.
 

Shiggy

Member
Sounds pretty terrible. So this is what caused the studio's death. Now they are bound to endless Mario & DK sequels.
 
Jesus.

One of the most xenophobic stories I've ever heard.

"It's all the evil Japanese people's fault!"
Or NCL purely didn't care about them talent wise, same era where Nintendo asked Denis Dyack to make a mini game collection for Wii, after enternal darkness and twin snakes
 

L Thammy

Member
Don't have the time to watch this right now, but this is certainly interesting. What I'm really wondering is what the game actually played like when it was nearing completion. NST's work has always seemed pretty weak and uninspired to me. Maybe allowing them greater freedom would have fixed that, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the game was shaping up to be pretty crappy.

I'd be more inspired to believe that this was solely a case of cultural clash or xenophobic management if this wasn't the studio that made Mario constantly babble in mock Italian, for example.
 
Not surprised that the game was fucked with by out-of-touch management. Turning it into some ugly Wii-line game is the funniest part. Completely ignoring any legitimate attempts at making it better and just going "slap the Wii name on it" because that was the hot thing at the time. Says a lot about their management.
 

Big One

Banned
I don't think the attitude of the Japanese producers is that surprising. This is pretty much the same story as Metroid Prime, Miyamoto turned up and shat all over Retro until they shaped up.
I've always heard the original version of Metroid Prime and their other games were really bad though, so Miyamoto making them tighten up is a good thing. Should've done it with Project Hammer as well.
 

thefro

Member
Not surprised that the game was fucked with by out-of-touch management. Turning it into some ugly Wii-line game is the funniest part. Completely ignoring any legitimate attempts at making it better and just going "slap the Wii name on it" because that was the hot thing at the time. Says a lot about their management.

Whoever was in charge of NST must have had quite a bit of power since the design ethos described in that video goes completely against what most of Nintendo does (focus on gameplay first).

It would have gotten Miyamoto table flipped pretty early on at EAD, who was even critical of the early version of Splatoon.
 
I've always heard the original version of Metroid Prime and their other games were really bad though, so Miyamoto making them tighten up is a good thing. Should've done it with Project Hammer as well.

Probably different producers.

To me the story is interesting because go against the usual "Nintendo shapes western studios" stuff. Thought it may very well a change attitude to the western branch as the Wii era was infamous in bringing.
 

Jessmo111

Banned
And can someone explain the the cultural differences, between western studios, and Japanese studios? Why are Japanese studios potrayed as more disciplined? (Up-ending tea tables)?
Is this a 3rd rail discussion?
 

Toxi

Banned
Because is actually kind of shitty calling the debs xenophobic as is the usual heat that other Japanese companies get.
The story doesn't call the devs xenophobic. The sources he was getting info from made that accusation.

But that distinction is lost for shitty NeoGAF posts.
 

jeffers

Member
https://twitter.com/Doctor_Cupcakes/status/617351113168322561

Apparently the gentleman who researched the story finds commentary on the content from his sources to be a personal attack on him now.

It's good that out of 75 posts he picks that to be his representation of not just this thread but the whole forum. and he says that on twitter, where you are going to get far stronger opinions in much more vast quantities.

people-from-the-internet, everyone.
 
It's good that out of 75 posts he picks that to be his representation of not just this thread but the whole forum. and he says that on twitter, where you are going to get far stronger opinions in much more vast quantities.

people-from-the-internet, everyone.

Is truly a shitty post that no many have called out it.

The story doesn't call the devs xenophobic. The sources he was getting info from made that accusation.

But that distinction is lost for shitty NeoGAF posts.

Devs as the studio that got shafted and a poster here called the article xenophobic.
 

gogojira

Member
I played the demo at E3 and it was really dull. Maybe it could've turned into something great but this always felt like a game that people envisioned being better than it was.
 
I played the demo at E3 and it was really dull. Maybe it could've turned into something great but this always felt like a game that people envisioned being better than it was.

This seems to always be the case with games that are canned though. People romanticize them because we never got to actually see how bad they (potentially) were.
 

gogojira

Member
This seems to always be the case with games that are canned though. People romanticize them because we never got to actually see how bad they (potentially) were.

Definitely, I do it, too. The illusion was broken for me though when I actually got to play it.
 

Chindogg

Member
It's a weird and really unfortunate story. There could definitely be a clash of cultures here, however the game honestly didn't look that great to begin with.

Perhaps NCL waited it out because they thought they could pull the game together. Maybe management was too harsh on the western devs, or maybe the western devs just weren't good enough. It's hard to tell when you only have one side of the story.

Ultimately it was probably for the best to cancel the game and push NST down a few pegs. Just an unfortunate situation for all involved.
 

Revven

Member
Why is this guy so much in the defense regarding GAF? Did he get banned?

There was a little spat over his E3 leaks and many people on GAF were annoyed criticizing him for "charging" for E3 leaks as the leaks he had were part of his podcast. Said podcast was behind a $1 "paywall", as people put it in the thread at the time, when it's more of a Patereon (or whatever service he uses to receive money) bonus for people who donate $1 towards their server costs for the site -- the people who donate get the podcast early, basically.

The E3 leaks turned out to be old stuff as well so people were not just annoyed by the $1 thing but also that the E3 leaks weren't what they expected. He wasn't banned, people on GAF just made extremely ridiculous statements and hurled insults/general distaste at LiamR without any context for where the money was going and that he's had it set up this way for awhile now.
 

Johndoey

Banned
Their first attempt to tweak the game seemed to focus on bringing in destructible environments and making that a core part of the game. There wasn't an immediate push to reduce the mature tone. The core gameplay as it existed was just... meh. And a lot of the people at E3 who actually played the demo said the same thing. So something had to be changed at the fundamental level.



Yeah, that's definitely my takeaway on this. I don't think anyone can disagree that there was a management issue, but I don't necessarily think it was how it's being presented by the former employee(s) and was likely addressed by the entire staff poorly.



Yeah, this is my other big takeaway from the story. The fact that we have employee(s) throwing around overtly xenophobic statements with regards to management and terribly one-sided accounts about the situation doesn't really speak all that well of the staff that was in the picture in the first place; xenophobia doesn't just magically appear, after all, and management was hardly solely responsible for the creation of what was described at E3 as a boring game, so of course they'd want to make changes. And supposedly racist managers somehow getting off scott-free in a large multinational corporation like Nintendo? Yeah, sorry, something's off about that.

I will say that despite reporting what was heard from former employee(s) verbatim, an attempt was made to at least even things out in the video and not squarely lay blame in one direction beyond what was said.

You can't imagine racism in upper management of a large corporation? Are you kidding, or willfully ignorant?
 

TI82

Banned
Racism, record low morale for Nintendo of America (maybe Nintendo as a whole), wasteful spending on a game basically done, and now record low sales.

Cmon Nintendo, get your shit together.
 

Toxi

Banned
Racism, record low morale for Nintendo of America (maybe Nintendo as a whole), wasteful spending on a game basically done, and now record low sales.

Cmon Nintendo, get your shit together.
This happened over five years ago.
 

Vena

Member
You can't imagine racism in upper management of a large corporation? Are you kidding, or willfully ignorant?

Oh its certainly possible.

Might even explain Tanabe's rise in the western branch, as he's now one of the top heads of the western development wing and as far as we're aware his teams are treated quite well and given freedom in their projects.

Racism, record low morale for Nintendo of America (maybe Nintendo as a whole), wasteful spending on a game basically done, and now record low sales.

Cmon Nintendo, get your shit together.

Are you paying attention to this thread at all? Are you paying at attention at all in general?
 
to be honest project hammer never looked good as excite truck (which turned out splendid) or disaster (which was hohum but well the next game was phenomenal) at its initial reveal.

NST always was a studio that seemed capable of great things (Ridge Racer 64, Wave Race Blue Storm, metroid prime hunters) but ultimately failed due to the lack of polish the other nintendo games usually have. Id say that Wave Race probably is their best game to date because they somehow managed to bring that "Nintendo polish" into the final product (which I think is better then Wave Race 64 and amazing from a visual and gameplay standpoint even to this day).

With the racism part... well Nintendo is a japanese company and like with any global company HQ is always going to have superiority over any of its subsidiaries.
is a bit weird. The biggest crime was probably not cancelling the game sooner (so NCL/higher managment failed there). Would like to know more details about why it got dragged on so long, when the wiimote could have been good for new sports games.

edit: also found some of that miyamoto/metroid prime stuff: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...o_Studios_On_The_Journey_Of_Metroid_Prime.php

well its kinda nintendos style to fund games even if they dont seem to amount to anything. sometimes it works out a few years later down the road (for example that stage debut Gamecube Demo that became the "Miis")
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Oh its certainly possible.

Might even explain Tanabe's rise in the western branch, as he's now one of the top heads of the western development wing and as far as we're aware his teams are treated quite well and given freedom in their projects.



Are you paying attention to this thread at all?

It's TI82. Why should he need to pay attention if he can hyperbolically shit on Nintendo anyway? No reason at all. "Bad thread for Nintendo? Time to troll and to free myself from all this hate I have towards them, yahah!" His life wouldn't be complete without that. It's like bread.
 

Johndoey

Banned
Oh its certainly possible.

Might even explain Tanabe's rise in the western branch, as he's now one of the top heads of the western development wing and as far as we're aware his teams are treated quite well and given freedom in their projects.
What does this have to do with my statement, I didn't mention Nintendo I mentioned the foolishness of not realizing there could be racism in the upper echelons of a large corporation.
 

jeffers

Member
Racism, record low morale for Nintendo of America (maybe Nintendo as a whole), wasteful spending on a game basically done, and now record low sales.

Cmon Nintendo, get your shit together.

I do love some conjecture! it implies the survey was done BY NoA for NST. Not even sure why you said 'maybe nintendo as a whole', there is absolutely no basis to come to that conclusion from these events.

Glenn Beck style stuff right here.
 

Vena

Member
What does this have to do with my statement, I didn't mention Nintendo I mentioned the foolishness of not realizing there could be racism in the upper echelons of a large corporation.

Oh I am not disagreeing with you, I was adding some food-for-thought, and jumping off of your point. :D

I used you as a spring-board. :p
 

TI82

Banned
It's TI82. Why should he need to pay attention if he can hyperbolically shit on Nintendo anyway? No reason at all. "Bad thread for Nintendo? Time to troll and to free myself from all this hate I have towards them, yahah!" His life wouldn't be complete without that. It's like bread.

Maybe I'm alone here but I find it pretty hilarious you posted this message as I was just beating Hyrule Warriors and watching the credits. Try not to shit on people for their opinions all the time man.
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Oh I am not disagreeing with you, I was adding some food-for-thought, and jumping off of your point. :D

I used you as a spring-board. :p

Vena, pls, this is Gaf, not Sonic Boom.
 

Tripon

Member
There was a little spat over his E3 leaks and many people on GAF were annoyed criticizing him for "charging" for E3 leaks as the leaks he had were part of his podcast. Said podcast was behind a $1 "paywall", as people put it in the thread at the time, when it's more of a Patereon (or whatever service he uses to receive money) bonus for people who donate $1 towards their server costs for the site -- the people who donate get the podcast early, basically.

The E3 leaks turned out to be old stuff as well so people were not just annoyed by the $1 thing but also that the E3 leaks weren't what they expected. He wasn't banned, people on GAF just made extremely ridiculous statements and hurled insults/general distaste at LiamR without any context for where the money was going and that he's had it set up this way for awhile now.
LiamR? Isn't that a gaffer?
 

jeffers

Member
well its kinda nintendos style to fund games even if they dont seem to amount to anything. sometimes it works out a few years later down the road (for example that stage debut Gamecube Demo that became the "Miis")
Yeah I guess, its weird when they go on about their prototype model as you think that would weed out fundamentally dull games sooner but maybe thats mostly, or used to be mostly, an EAD affair and they view studios further away differently and more like contracting work out. And I guess they did pull resources away from the sounds of it.
 

Vena

Member
Yeah I guess, its weird when they go on about their prototype model as you think that would weed out fundamentally dull games sooner but maybe thats mostly, or used to be mostly, an EAD affair and they view studios further away differently and more like contracting work out. And I guess they did pull resources away from the sounds of it.

Outside of Retro, most of their western development is effectively contracted. NLG isn't an owned studio, but they get IP to work off of from Nintendo in spin-off titles or revivals of older franchises. NST is weird.

Retro does what Retro wants to do, and Tanabe is overall in charge of their projects.

It would be great to see some Garage-like initiatives open up in the west but Nintendo doesn't really have an "EAD"-type centralized location there/here to have such a program to aspire new project prototypes. I think Nintendo's overall attitude towards pet-projects/prototypes has generally been changing for the positive recently, though, as we've seen some of the little titles make it big or decently: BOXBOY, Splatoon.
 
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