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[IHaveCandy]

This is not a question of will they do this, but why didn't they do this.

So Durango is rumored to have 8 GB DDR3 with 32 MB eSRAM. I understand that MS cannot just swap the DDR3 RAM with GDDR5 in any efficient way without delaying the console. It sounds like 8 GB GDDR5 was too expensive to do to them, and eSRAM wasn't too expensive, even though eSRAM is pretty pricey too. But why didn't MS just use 6 GB DDR3 RAM, with 2 GB of GDDR5 RAM. Change the balance between GDDR5 and DDR3 as much as you need to make it price efficient. Even if they only did 512 MB of GDDR5, this sounds to make more sense to me, who doesn't know much. Here's why I think it makes more sense.

Their current setup allows a max bandwidth of 170GBps if they most efficiently use the eSRAM, with a minimum bandwidth of about 68GBps. They are limited by that 32 MB of RAM that is much faster.

My idea would remove the eSRAM, and replace it with 512MB - 2GB of GDDR3 RAM, and the remaining RAM to make it 8 GB be DDR3 RAM. Wouldn't this allow them to have a max bandwidth of 176 GBps, and a minimum bandwidth of 68 GBps, but they would now have the hyperfast RAM have a capacity between 512 MB - 2 GB.

Thoughts?

 

[statham]

you donot have candy. *mad*

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Microsoft knows what it's doing. They will have what they need. They have highly trained advisers and accountants. It might not be at level C but it will do xyz, and they are building it to do xyz.

 

[SSM25]

It does not matter, microsoft's architecture is good as it is. It's using DDR3 but a very high frequency DDR3 not the same the WiiU is using.

 

[Zeal]

We don't know exactly what MS's goal is with the console, or what they want it to do, so I think the RAM discussion is approaching the beating a dead horse level until the system is officially unveiled.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

The system would RRoD and melt through your floor before you even plugged it in.

 

[Tagg9]

I don't think you understand how the hardware works.

It's a logistical nightmare for developers if the RAM isn't unified. In your scenario, they would have to specifically code which RAM to use for which data.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there would be issues connecting the different types of RAM to the same bus while maintaining a high throughput.

 

[REV 09]

rumors rumors...we don't know what ms is doing at this point. I'm sure they have their reasons...even if its solely based on cost.

 

[Reiko]

I've made my peace with the RAM setup. It's the GPU direction I find disappointing coming from MS.

 

[IHaveCandy]

I don't think you understand how the hardware works.

It's a logistical nightmare for developers if the RAM isn't unified. In your scenario, they would have to specifically code which RAM to use for which data.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there would be issues connecting the different types of RAM to the same bus while maintaining a high throughput.

So separating the RAM would cause issues with what exactly? I thought the PS3 problem was that the CPU and GPU only could access half? What if the Durango CPU and GPU could access both the 2 GB pool and 6 GB pool of RAM? Would this be too difficult/expensive to create that same bandwidth channels since it would be 4 buses instead of 2?

 

[alphaNoid]

1. Microsoft knows how to better engineer than most all companies on the planet. (most) Their R&D teams spend upwards to $5 Billion a year researching how to best use technology.
2. Using eSRAM allows for easier access to the entire pipeline of memory bandwidth.
3. Easier than just throwing fast/expensive memory at the problem.
4. Cost effective, ultimately netting more revenue and sustaining a healthy business model.
5. This next generation is not going to be defined by how many pixels or shaders are on display, it will be defined and remembered by services offered, platform features, and integration therein.

The best selling smartphones are rarely the most powerful. On the contrary they tend to be the best designed, efficient and engineered that offer the best experience, with the most robust feature set. And to be quite honest .. consoles are playing catch up with smartphones in many, many ways. The company that can best mimic a successful smartphone design, infrastructure and feature set will come out on top. Not the one with the most pixels on screen. If that rustles some jimmies than so be it, but the console business model of yesteryear is tired, archaic and unsustainable.

 

[Paches]

1. Microsoft knows how to better engineer than most all companies on the planet. (most) Their R&D teams spend upwards to $5 Billion a year researching how to best use technology.
2. Using eSRAM allows for easier access to the entire pipeline of memory bandwidth.
3. Easier than just throwing fast/expensive memory at the problem.
4. Cost effective, ultimately netting more revenue and sustaining a healthy business model.
5. This next generation is not going to be defined by how many pixels or shaders are on display, it will be defined and remembered by services offered, platform features, and integration therein.

The best selling smartphones are rarely the most powerful. On the contrary they tend to be the best designed, efficient and engineered that offer the best experience, with the most robust feature set. And to be quite honest .. consoles are playing catch up with smartphones in many, many ways.

The company that can best mimic a successful smartphone design, infrastructure and feature set will come out on top. Not the one with the most pixels on screen.

Xbox 720 to have Tegra 4 confirmed?

 

[Tagg9]

So separating the RAM would cause issues with what exactly? I thought the PS3 problem was that the CPU and GPU only could access half? What if the Durango CPU and GPU could access both the 2 GB pool and 6 GB pool of RAM? Would this be too difficult/expensive to create that same bandwidth channels since it would be 4 buses instead of 2?

See the diagram here: http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/ You'd need to add another bus to replicate the North Bridge. This wouldn't be too expensive, but it would likely decrease total speed/throughput.

My other main point is that it makes it more difficult for developers because they then must specify which type of RAM to store data in. Ideally you only want to make a single memory call.

I'm just basing this on my own rough knowledge of things, so I apologize if I'm totally off here.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

So Durango is rumored to have 8 GB DDR3...

Where did this rumor come from all of a sudden? Last I heard, they weren't using 8, now in the last 24 hours people keep saying this. Did I miss a thread or something?

 

[DEADEVIL]

1. Microsoft knows how to better engineer than most all companies on the planet. (most) Their R&D teams spend upwards to $5 Billion a year researching how to best use technology.
2. Using eSRAM allows for easier access to the entire pipeline of memory bandwidth.
3. Easier than just throwing fast/expensive memory at the problem.
4. Cost effective, ultimately netting more revenue and sustaining a healthy business model.
5. This next generation is not going to be defined by how many pixels or shaders are on display, it will be defined and remembered by services offered, platform features, and integration therein.

The best selling smartphones are rarely the most powerful. On the contrary they tend to be the best designed, efficient and engineered that offer the best experience, with the most robust feature set. And to be quite honest .. consoles are playing catch up with smartphones in many, many ways.

The company that can best mimic a successful smartphone design, infrastructure and feature set will come out on top. Not the one with the most pixels on screen.

Well thought out. we shall see.

 

[AzaK]

I don't think you understand how the hardware works.

It's a logistical nightmare for developers if the RAM isn't unified. In your scenario, they would have to specifically code which RAM to use for which data.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there would be issues connecting the different types of RAM to the same bus while maintaining a high throughput.

They already do with the eSRAM.

 

[Reiko]

Where did this rumor come from all of a sudden? Last I heard, they weren't using 8, now in the last 24 hours people keep saying this. Did I miss a thread or something?

They've been using 8GB for a long time.

 

[macewank]

Where did this rumor come from all of a sudden? Last I heard, they weren't using 8, now in the last 24 hours people keep saying this. Did I miss a thread or something?

eh? Durango has always been rumored to have 8GB of DDR 3 (based on the dev kits) Orbis was rumored at 4GB of GDDR5.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

eh? Durango has always been rumored to have 8GB of DDR 3. Orbis was rumored at 4GB of GDDR5.

Oh ok. My mistake.

 

[IHaveCandy]

See the diagram here: http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/ You'd need to add another bus to replicate the North Bridge. This wouldn't be too expensive, but it would likely decrease total speed/throughput.

My other main point is that it makes it more difficult for developers because they then must specify which type of RAM to store data in. Ideally you only want to make a single memory call.

I'm just basing this on my own rough knowledge of things, so I apologize if I'm totally off here.

But don't they have to make a different type of call with eSRAM? I guess the other stuff makes my design idea moot though.

 

[Soulflarz]

First reply nails it

 

[The Faceless Master]

1. Microsoft knows how to better engineer than most all companies on the planet. (most) Their R&D teams spend upwards to $5 Billion a year researching how to best use technology.
2. Using eSRAM allows for easier access to the entire pipeline of memory bandwidth.
3. Easier than just throwing fast/expensive memory at the problem.
4. Cost effective, ultimately netting more revenue and sustaining a healthy business model.
5. This next generation is not going to be defined by how many pixels or shaders are on display, it will be defined and remembered by services offered, platform features, and integration therein.

The best selling smartphones are rarely the most powerful. On the contrary they tend to be the best designed, efficient and engineered that offer the best experience, with the most robust feature set. And to be quite honest .. consoles are playing catch up with smartphones in many, many ways. The company that can best mimic a successful smartphone design, infrastructure and feature set will come out on top. Not the one with the most pixels on screen. If that rustles some jimmies than so be it, but the console business model of yesteryear is tired, archaic and unsustainable.

pretty sure that the best selling smartphones these past few years were also the most powerful.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I think Microsoft was just following Nintendo's lead with the decision to heavily lean on esram.

 

[Baconsammy]

Cost. My guess is they intend to do two things this fall:

1 - introduce a new version of the 360 that is much much cheaper and will serve as an alternative to the Wii U/PS3, and still keep people buying XBL subscriptions. Perhaps media content new to the next Xbox also available on the 360

2 - introduce the new Xbox at a significantly lower price than the PS4

 

[Woo-Fu]

Why are people shitting the bed because Microsoft's console might not have exactly the same specs as Sony's?

I really don't see the point of trying to 2nd guess Microsoft before the product is even in anybody's hands to test in the first place. You don't even know how it will perform outside of the lab and you're already giving Microsoft shit about their design decisions? Are you an electrical engineering god with a crystal ball that allows you to divine how developers will fare on every platform?

Let's pretend that the PS4's memory implementation is better in every way, shape or form. Even then it is pointless to judge it in a vacuum devoid of pricing information, devoid of library considerations.

Ease down Ripley, ease down, you're just grinding the trans-axle.

 

[Dennis]

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Why are people shitting the bed because Microsoft's console might not have exactly the same specs as Sony's?

I really don't see the point of trying to 2nd guess Microsoft before the product is even in anybody's hands to test in the first place. You don't even know how it will perform outside of the lab and you're already giving Microsoft shit about their design decisions? Are you an electrical engineering god with a crystal ball that allows you to divine how developers will fare on every platform?

Let's pretend that the PS4's memory implementation is better in every way, shape or form. Even then it is pointless to judge it in a vacuum devoid of pricing information, devoid of library considerations.

Ease down Ripley, ease down, you're just grinding the trans-axle.

Because we must do what we can to make sure our side wins the next console war!

 

[Brad Grenz]

Because trying to put 2 256bit memory buses on the same chip is not practical.

You could use 2 128 bit buses, but then your DDR3 speed drops to 34GBps and your GDDR5 speed drops to ~80GBps.

So it would be both more expensive to implement, and slower.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

having edram or esram just means they'll be able to emulate the 360, while sony will have to give up backwards compatability. The next xbox can have a market advantage with it. As well as a price advantage by buying more affordable DDR3 ram.

 

[Tagg9]

They already do with the eSRAM.

Uh, do they? Never mind then. I thought that was all handled automaticallly.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

I predict they'll cut down on the cost by skipping thermal paste altogether and just using Elmer's.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Because trying to put 2 256bit memory buses on the same chip is not practical.

You could use 2 128 bit buses, but then your DDR3 speed drops to 34GBps and your GDDR5 speed drops to ~80GBps.

So it would be both more expensive to implement, and slower.

Guess that settles it. Why is it that the eSRAM does not have this bus problem? Can it avoid it since it is a smaller cache of RAM?

 

[EviLore]

GDDR Goat?

 

[The Faceless Master]

Why are people shitting the bed because Microsoft's console might not have exactly the same specs as Sony's?

I really don't see the point of trying to 2nd guess Microsoft before the product is even in anybody's hands to test in the first place. You don't even know how it will perform outside of the lab and you're already giving Microsoft shit about their design decisions? Are you an electrical engineering god with a crystal ball that allows you to divine how developers will fare on every platform?

Let's pretend that the PS4's memory implementation is better in every way, shape or form. Even then it is pointless to judge it in a vacuum devoid of pricing information, devoid of library considerations.

Ease down Ripley, ease down, you're just grinding the trans-axle.

Microsoft had the performance crown the past 2 gens, it's surprising to think they may not this time, especially if it ends up being as decisive of a loss as it looks now with the rumored specs.

 

[civilstrife]

Spoiler

Sorry for the xpost. Couldn't resist

 

[Baconsammy]

Microsoft had the performance crown the past 2 gens, it's surprising to think they may not this time, especially if it ends up being as decisive of a loss as it looks now with the rumored specs.

I think they're playing for a different kind of win this time.

 

[Nerdstrom]

Lol why do people act like the system came out and flopped already? The systems will be very close the 1st year or 2 graphics wise.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I think they're playing for a different kind of win this time.

MS going for the win in the OT?

Lol why do people act like the system came out and flopped already? The systems will be very close the 1st year or 2 graphics wise.

nobody wants to be the person playing the #3 performing version of multiplats instead of the #2

 

[darkistheway]

It's going to be like this until the reveal, isn't it?

Console wars are so fun - been awhile since we had a good one.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Guess that settles it. Why is it that the eSRAM does not have this bus problem? Can it avoid it since it is a smaller cache of RAM?

It's because the whole point of embedded memory is it is built into the chip. It is not memory you have to communicate to through wires that go out of the chip to where the memory chips have been soldered onto the PCB.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Microsoft had the performance crown the past 2 gens, it's surprising to think they may not this time, especially if it ends up being as decisive of a loss as it looks now with the rumored specs.

They didn't have the performance crown across the board.

On top of that did they win any of those generations where they arguably had an across-the-board performance advantage? No.

I think people worry too much about hardware specs when those aren't what decide what happens. We just came off of a generation dominated by two gamecubes duct-taped together, why are people obsessed with tech specs that can't be translated into real-world performance, much less quality of experience?

Sony's handheld hardware looks like nanotech next to Nintendo's steam engines yet Nintendo wins every time. People need to step back and take a deep breath before clawing their eyes out over 8GB of GDDR5.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

It's going to like this until the reveal, isn't it?

Console wars are so fun - been awhile since we had a good one.

Oh, it'll be beyond that, at least the first three years or so. Basically until they get cheap enough that a good number of people own both, then they'll cool down a little.

 

[AzaK]

Uh, do they? Never mind then. I thought that was all handled automaticallly.

It will depend on APIs and how the eSRAM it connected but I imagine it's not just a cache and therefore developers will decide what to put where.

It's going to like this until the reveal, isn't it?

Console wars are so fun - been awhile since we had a good one.

At least they only have 10 months. Wii U went on for 18.

 

[Baconsammy]

MS going for the win in the OT?

I think they want to skip the part of the generation where you only appeal to the hardcore gamers, and then sell to everyone else who waits for prices to drop.

 

[darkistheway]

I think they want to skip the part of the generation where you only appeal to the hardcore gamers, and then sell to everyone else who waits for prices to drop.

An emphasis on Kinect would imply you are correct.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

You sure do have a lot of questions bouncing around in your head IHaveCandy

 

[K.Sabot]

I guess I should be happy because this is the only time the Rams will ever be important.

Rams fan 4 lyfe...

 

[Speevy]

how any rams can they ram into ram?

 

[Baconsammy]

An emphasis on Kinect would imply you are correct.

I don't think it involves an emphasis on Kinect more than it involves an emphasis on consumption, convenience, convergence, and connections.

 

[M.Bluth]

Has anyone tried to predict what would the effective bandwidth of Durango be?
I thought that rumor (which site was it again?) sounded BS when the person leaking it just added the ESRAM and the DDR3's bandwidth numbers...