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Why isn't there a first world African nation and what can be done to make one?
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Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Good looking out
For all intents and purposes it is though. The Middle East is a region, and Egypt has been the cultural center of the Arab World.
Stereogatari
Banned
lol baffled.
i wonder how the tens of millions of people killed, transported like sardines
lying underneath a 3-foot ceiling for days and days with people dying left and right, in levels/floors inside a big cargo ship...
could ever stagnate the economy of an entire continent, so much so that the effects are still felt hundreds of years after, and countries are doing "charities" that will never bring the economy back.up to where it was supposed to be had the africans stayed where they belonged.
Not all of Africa was subject to slave trade, and if anything it helped the economy of Africa.
The main reason is simply that Europe, Turkey, Japan etc. have had time to evolve their modern institutions and Africa (and other parts of the "3rd World") haven/t yet had enough time, since they didn't organically evolve into capitalist economy nation-states but were fast tracked via the "Western hand".
tearsintherain
Member
I've been watching the BBC Documentary "Slow Train Through Africa with Griff Rhys Jones" and its fantastic, highly recommend it to everyone. The first country they showed, Namibia, looked absolutely nothing like what I think about when I hear Africa (warlords, starvation, war, brutality, etc) and the cities they showed looked rich and fairly prosperous.
While other nations were going through industrialization and modernization, Africa was being carved into pieces and pillaged for it's resources. And by the time they were free of those conditions, the people who swept in to take control were as bad as the people who left. Dictators and despots who continued to bleed the nations dry to make themselves richer. For many countries in Africa, they have only been able to begin the process of modernization in the last 20 years (or less).
However, something like 7 of the top 10 growing economies are in Africa, it's beginning to catch up. I'd predict by 2050 we will have several first world comparable nations in Africa.
However, something like 7 of the top 10 growing economies are in Africa, it's beginning to catch up. I'd predict by 2050 we will have several first world comparable nations in Africa.
You what else helps no one? Requiring others to educate you when you have the world's library at your fingertips. There's nothing wrong with asking questions but at least take the time to do your own research rather than relying on others to teach you things. Personally, I'm tired of people expecting non-whites to teach everything. Go out there and educate yourself and if you have questions, then ask.
Beelzebufo
Banned
There's nothing wrong with asking questions as long as you already know the answer? That's a really bad attitude.
I neither said nor suggested that. The thread starter did absolutely no research on something that has been discussed time and time again and brought absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Lil'DigiOp
Member
The joke to me is that when people hear the word Africa, they get this image of barren sahara, diseased black people, hut villages, and diamond mines.
Africa is the biggest continent in the world.
Yes, all that stuff is there, but there are tons of developed areas throughout the continent. Hell, Nigeria is listed as one of the biggest thriving cities in the next decade. Look at the google presentation today, Tons of android phones throughout Africa with the same capabilities ours posses. These places have technology and plumbing just like we do, its not that far fetched of an idea. Fuck the first world bullshit because it all doesn't mean shit if the lights go out anyway.
Just because people don't choose to research and learn doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This is the correct studious answer as well. Fantastic work siddx
Africa is the biggest continent in the world.
Yes, all that stuff is there, but there are tons of developed areas throughout the continent. Hell, Nigeria is listed as one of the biggest thriving cities in the next decade. Look at the google presentation today, Tons of android phones throughout Africa with the same capabilities ours posses. These places have technology and plumbing just like we do, its not that far fetched of an idea. Fuck the first world bullshit because it all doesn't mean shit if the lights go out anyway.
Just because people don't choose to research and learn doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This is the correct studious answer as well. Fantastic work siddx
not to forget the enrichment of europe over periods of centuries by taking territory, people, treasure, and natural resources from Africa. Helped that capitalist evolution like some damned Mutagen-X laced growth hormone.
and of course the habitual destabilization of governments to maintain an easy path to those wonderful capitalistic power pellets.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Has anyone on GAF actually been to Africa? Not asking this with snark, I'm genuinely curious, and I don't mean on a service trip to the poorest areas. Most of the Nigerians and South Africans I know aren't exactly blown away by our "first world" society.
As has been said, it's a pretty big place, and it's almost three or four different topics wren you talk about Northern Africa, South Africa, West Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa in general.
As has been said, it's a pretty big place, and it's almost three or four different topics wren you talk about Northern Africa, South Africa, West Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa in general.
sir_kevith
Member
Africa is huge in terms of land mass. Sure a lot of it is undeveloped but just google image search Nairobi or something along with some other cities mentioned and you'd see there's plenty of development.
An ongoing legacy, at that.
I'm African-American, with a lot of African immigrant friends. They are intelligent and capable, most of them exceptionally well educated here and abroad. I've had African friends wonder why African-Americans don't succeed as well as they do, as an immigrant group. But the numbers don't lie, and back at home, there are cultures of shocking ignorance and tribalism.
It's the exploitation, for sure, but it's also deeply-rooted backwards, insane cultural beliefs and practices. It's not like Africans, the best and brightest, aren't aware. One friend in particular, an amazing woman who is an MD from Nigeria, puts up the most amazing articles on her Facebook about this. The problems, even in Nigeria which is a relatively rich OPEC country, seem insurmountable.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
I'm going to Ghana in July...I'll let you guys know how prosperous it is or isn't ; )
Large parts of Africa have been developing rapidly over the past decade. China has been playing a pretty big role in developing the infrastructure there...trading huge infrastructure deals for resources. This will help Africa develop to a certain extent, but it also puts Africa at risk of falling into the "resource trap", i.e. South American economies. It's going to be up to Africa to manage it's land and resource wealth through good governance, take advantage of the infrastructure being developed and properly educate it's growing populace.
If that all falls into place, the next century may very well be the African Century.
Large parts of Africa have been developing rapidly over the past decade. China has been playing a pretty big role in developing the infrastructure there...trading huge infrastructure deals for resources. This will help Africa develop to a certain extent, but it also puts Africa at risk of falling into the "resource trap", i.e. South American economies. It's going to be up to Africa to manage it's land and resource wealth through good governance, take advantage of the infrastructure being developed and properly educate it's growing populace.
If that all falls into place, the next century may very well be the African Century.
JordanN
Banned
At the end of WW2, Europe was given tons of money by the U.S to rebuild and modernize themselves. Africa didn't get such help.
In addition to having to put up with colonialism, the continent was used as a battleground for Communist and Pro-western forces. That pretty much set the stage for ensuing dictators.
In addition to having to put up with colonialism, the continent was used as a battleground for Communist and Pro-western forces. That pretty much set the stage for ensuing dictators.
Basileus777
Member
lol baffled.
i wonder how the tens of millions of people killed, transported like sardines
lying underneath a 3-foot ceiling for days and days with people dying left and right, in levels/floors inside a big cargo ship...
could ever stagnate the economy of an entire continent, so much so that the effects are still felt hundreds of years after, and countries are doing "charities" that will never bring the economy back.up to where it was supposed to be had the africans stayed where they belonged.
And it's not even just the Atlantic slave trade. The vast taking of Zanj slaves had a particularly devastating impact on East Africa.
Large scale depopulation is typically good for the economy right?
m_shortpants
Member
Other than the authoritarian dictatorship, Libya was coming along fairly well.
Really high literacy, healthcare, good economy, etc. Of course he was an asshole though so he had to go at some point, I guess.
Really high literacy, healthcare, good economy, etc. Of course he was an asshole though so he had to go at some point, I guess.
First world applies to countries allied with the United States.
Second world countries applies to communist countries allied with the former Soviet Union.
Third world applies to non-aligned countries.
This, of course, changed with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. We now use "third world" to apply to non-developed and war torn countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World
Incorrect.
Beelzebufo
Banned
So in the newer context, what does SA become? It's definitely not in the same category as a lot of African nations.
First world, I'd imagine.
People tend to use the term developing nations now instead. It looks at a whole host of factors and some countries might surprise you as far as where they are ranked. Although there are plenty of criticisms of the terms as well.
In the context of developing nations, South Africa is Medium, approaching High. It's part of a group that includes China, India, Mexico, Brazil, Malaysia, and a few other nations that are progressing quickly towards being developed but still have several huge hurdles to overcome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country
Nigeria :3
Nealand Liquor
Member
Even if it has been asked "time and time again", opening discussions are never a bad thing and due to this thread I (and I hope others as well) have taken something away from it. That's a positive, no?
On another note it's not like the OP asked specifically you or anyone else upset at his ignorance to answer his questions or even click on the thread. So I don't get where the irritation at the question comes from?
To me this almost appears to be one of those times when someone will angrily say "It's not my job to educate you!", without even realizing they were never asked to.
Promising African leaders usually meet unfortunate ends at the hand of western powers.
Thomas Sankara
http://saharareporters.com/2013/10/15/thomas-sankara-and-assassination-africas-memory-chika-ezeanya
Patrice Lumumba
http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...atrice-lumumba-50th-anniversary-assassination
Thomas Sankara
http://saharareporters.com/2013/10/15/thomas-sankara-and-assassination-africas-memory-chika-ezeanya
Patrice Lumumba
http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...atrice-lumumba-50th-anniversary-assassination
I don't how you can reasonably say "so much potential" when an enormous chunk of the continent is uninhabitable due to either pure desert, no clean drinking water, and extremely limited food supplies. I mean obviously they could be doing better than they are with all the fucking corruption and genocide over the years, but it's not exactly prime real estate.
crazy monkey
Banned
Botswana will be good
Napoleonthechimp
Member
So all traces of its cultural heritage get completely washed away in favour of bland homogenised capitalism? Great.
Beelzebufo
Banned
I mean, I know I'd prefer KFC to whatever's going on in the horn right now.
Sequence Six
Member
Pending the long-term impact of their severe HIV/AIDS rate.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
It just looks like they've opted for prefabricated/predesigned buildings and dropped them straight in with no thought as to how to design something appropriate (but yet still modern).
But I suppose that's what you get if you want to upgrade a city in 10 years.
But it is possible. Just look at India, China, Brazil several East Asian or even middle eastern or Latin American nations. It just takes time. A big problem for Africa is that real infrastructure investment was poor, and too many dictators were allowed to gain hold. Look at the difference between Pakistan and India in terms of development.
It is going to change. Nigeria will be a major developing player if it can contain the Islamic scourge known as Boko Haram. The question why is there no first world African nation is a poor one. Most don't have a history of major expansion, colonization, enslavement or exploitation of a native foreign population.
Additionally, many African nations just aren't able to get any development going that is beneficial for them in the long run. Many international mining companies make it near impossible for domestic companies to take hold. I remember watching a show where a villager wanted to mine gold at a local mine. He employed about ten people, would feed them and pay them wages, he created living quarters, dug a well for water. Established a nice little community. Big problem was, this Norwegian company wanted to mine the gold there as well. They paid off the local ministers who don't really care or have any large future vision. In the end, they rezoned the mining rights, that guy lost his patch of independent mine etc. When the mine is completely dry, that international company will move on while there is nothing left for the people in that town.
Now China is heavily investing money, but employs almost slave labor like conditions. They pay off government officials, get the local populace working just like the poor mainland Chinese and while sure there are nice new roads, and hotels, it just makes it tough for anything meaningful to last.
As for South Africa, a big issue was you gave people who weren't in power, power. Nelson Mandela was smart and realized it would take a long time to integrate the people, and would need to maintain the white hegemony in his country. However that started to change under the newer leadership after Mandela. White businesses and farms taken, much like in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, an exodus of white South Africans out of the country, taking their money, their contributions to the economy with them etc. Crime is high in South Africa, and the nation is in decline. Corruption is very rife.
The right conditions need to exist for a nation to grow. Whether it's the perfect political climate, domestic policy, foreign policy. Why has Poland flourished while an Azerbaijan would never be considered first world? Why has the UAE become amazing, whereas Yemen is a shithole? Why has Singapore become the Asian Switzerland, while Myanmar is a dump?
Personally, the next great African nation will have a strong nationalist government and people. They can't see themselves as African, any more than Indians see themselves as Asian. They would need to promote a distinct 'identity' if you will. They need a strong leader, not necessarily Democratic, they need a strong central government and strong control over any state or municipality within. They need investment that creates jobs and lasting industry, don't look for the quick buck now, but something that will be there 30 years from now. Highways/freeways for easy transport, a strong port/shipping system, and world class airports. Let's see what happens.
Lol. Got me.
Alternative : Watch the documentary on youtube or Netflix.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Yup. I think a number of African countries will make the same kinds of strides India and China have made in the last 30 years by 2050. It won't be anything perfect, and serious problems won't be disappearing any time soon, but the continent is definitely on the rise.
uncleniccius
Member
I thought Asia was.
Their HIV problem is so bad, though. It's a huge hinderance to development.
Nigeria will probably end up as the first "emerging" player in Africa, though the timeframe is anyone's guess.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
The continent is plagued by corruption. All of its governing systems and institutions are built on corruption. One cannot advance without engaging in corruption.
The second big problem is tribalism. Its borders make any kind of institution building impossible. Africa is genetically the most diverse continent in the world, let alone the cultural aspect. Africa is plagued by cold war era obsessions of revolutions, assassinations, and political bribery.
The second big problem is tribalism. Its borders make any kind of institution building impossible. Africa is genetically the most diverse continent in the world, let alone the cultural aspect. Africa is plagued by cold war era obsessions of revolutions, assassinations, and political bribery.
It is far more complex than "but slavery and colonialism". Several current world economic powerhouses were colonized and enslaved, only to rise again (China and India comes to mind). I reject historic determinism, and so should you.
What can be done, you ask? This can be done. Rwanda is a poster case that proves that resolved conflicts and good governance can lift any country into first world standards, even the ones of the "deep Africa". There's no eternal black man curse, and that narrative ought to be challenged.
The tricky part is, however, the " resolved conflict" one. People see the bloodshed that desolates the continent and get horrorized (as it was Rwanda's very own genocide) but they don't understand that what is going on Africa is not "chaos" but rather a logical, albeit bloody process of frontiers getting re-drawed in order to match something resembling ethnic and cultural borders (with a hefty dose of hateful retribution added to it, unfortunately).
If you could ask me what can be done in order to accelerate this process, I think that world's superpowers ought to put into their big boy pants, stop this non-interventionist laissez-faire idiocy, re-drawn lines and restort to the re-settlement of huge chunks of the populace in order to make partition this time right, rather than waiting for tribal gerrillas to do that job. And once a semi-decent, less corrupt leader arrives to power, better start suporting him rather than oust him. But that last part, which is crucial (having a decent leader) lies in the hands of the Africans theirselves, and there's nothing that any superpower can do about that.
But I am an optimist myself. Nigeria is becoming an economic heaviweight, Ethiopia has already resolved its century-old struggles and it is growing fast, so is Guinea, North Sudan, Namibia and basically any African country with a modicum of stability. We will live to see Africa become the next Asian like markets of breathaking growth.
What can be done, you ask? This can be done. Rwanda is a poster case that proves that resolved conflicts and good governance can lift any country into first world standards, even the ones of the "deep Africa". There's no eternal black man curse, and that narrative ought to be challenged.
The tricky part is, however, the " resolved conflict" one. People see the bloodshed that desolates the continent and get horrorized (as it was Rwanda's very own genocide) but they don't understand that what is going on Africa is not "chaos" but rather a logical, albeit bloody process of frontiers getting re-drawed in order to match something resembling ethnic and cultural borders (with a hefty dose of hateful retribution added to it, unfortunately).
If you could ask me what can be done in order to accelerate this process, I think that world's superpowers ought to put into their big boy pants, stop this non-interventionist laissez-faire idiocy, re-drawn lines and restort to the re-settlement of huge chunks of the populace in order to make partition this time right, rather than waiting for tribal gerrillas to do that job. And once a semi-decent, less corrupt leader arrives to power, better start suporting him rather than oust him. But that last part, which is crucial (having a decent leader) lies in the hands of the Africans theirselves, and there's nothing that any superpower can do about that.
But I am an optimist myself. Nigeria is becoming an economic heaviweight, Ethiopia has already resolved its century-old struggles and it is growing fast, so is Guinea, North Sudan, Namibia and basically any African country with a modicum of stability. We will live to see Africa become the next Asian like markets of breathaking growth.
A higher standard of living is usually correlated with lower corruption
Seems like a bit of a chicken egg kinda deal
Read the book, it is interesting, but be aware it's not at all well respected by anthropologists or the scientific community at large.
perfectchaos007
Member
A higher standard of living is usually correlated with lower corruption
How is the country sarcastically referred to as Libertopia just as corrupt as Kim Jong Land?
perfectchaos007
Member
For some reason I'm afraid the space elevator will fuck up our orbit. It's like putting Earth on a stick
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