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[BreezyLimbo]

How is the country sarcastically referred to as Libertopia just as corrupt as Kim Jong Land?

What I want to know is why there isn't enough information about Greenland.

 

[VulpX]

Read the book, it is interesting, but be aware it's not at all well respected by anthropologists or the scientific community at large.

Why not? I just purchased the book because of this thread

 

[ClosingADoor]

They'll get there. At least some countries.

But also, these countries are pretty big, so there is a lot of difference in regions. I'm guessing one part of Nigeria is pretty modern, while others are still underdeveloped. Cities in South Africa are just as developed as cities anywhere else in the world. It's a continent with over a billion people. More then the entire first world combined.

But most countries have had maybe 50 years, most shorter to get started. Add to that a lot of wars because Europe just put up borders at random and you can't expect a whole continent to rise to the standard of living of their former oppressors.

Even today the whole resource situation is still screwed up. Nigeria exports a ton of oil, but has problems with shortages because they don't have the refineries themselves. So they export the raw oil and need to buy back gas from Shell and such to actually use it themselves.

 

[freeofgreed]

Not all of Africa was subject to slave trade, and if anything it helped the economy of Africa.

How...

You really think Africa would be better of/computing with western countries if we had never been there?

If you mean "we" as in European colonialists, then yes. Africa would've been much better off without colonialism. Also Europe benefited from colonialism far more than Africa did. Did colonialism provide some benefits/improvements to the continent? Yes. However the problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes colonialism is the only way these improvements could've been gained. They could've easily been gained through other interactions between Europe such as trade.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Because it does not benefit the core nations.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

You really think Africa would be better of/computing with western countries if we had never been there?

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yes.

 

[Funky Papa]

lol baffled.

i wonder how the tens of millions of people killed, transported like sardines

lying underneath a 3-foot ceiling for days and days with people dying left and right, in levels/floors inside a big cargo ship...

could ever stagnate the economy of an entire continent, so much so that the effects are still felt hundreds of years after, and countries are doing "charities" that will never bring the economy back.up to where it was supposed to be had the africans stayed where they belonged.

That picture reminds me of the infamous SPACE MOORS thread.

Oh my god.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Atlanta.

HAHAHHAHAH oh my god hahahahha

 

[BocoDragon]

"first world" is outdated cold war lingo... but what this really means is "developed nation", and actually, it's a really exclusive club even outside of Africa.

A bunch of Europeans, European-descended nations (USA, Canada, Australia, etc) and Korea and Japan.

 

[Africanus]

You really think Africa would be better of/computing with western countries if we had never been there?

Is this a question?

Yes, although perhaps I ought to qualify this statement.
What do you mean by "we"? And which "there" period do you mean? When does the west begin contact? The slave trade that largely ended in the first half of the 1800s, or the scramble for Africa of the 1880s?

Certain regions of Africa would be better off/competing with Western countries had they not intervened. Particularly the upper half (What is referred to as North, West, and East Africa), due to connections to trade lines that were already developed for thousands of years or developing.

Southern Africa would be underdeveloped, a pity, but better than subjugation I suppose.

To address the original poster, there is no first world African nation because of earlier colonialism and the result of that today, in international and civil wars as well as corruption.

A telling sign of this is that Nigeria, the "Giant of Africa" in population and economy, only today swore in the first opposition leader to win an election since 1960 independence. And he is a former dictator from the 1980s!

I would look to Ethiopia, Egypt, South Africa, and Nigeria in the coming years. All four countries have unique aspects to them that will assist in development.

 

[dripdripsplash]

You really think Africa would be better of/computing with western countries if we had never been there?

I do genuinely believe that the lack of colonising countries setting up a slave trade is better for Africa in the long run, yes.

 

[zorlaczerohero]

The only African nation I've visited was Morocco, and I have to say it seemed very developed. Little obvious poverty in the cities, more in the rural areas, like the Atlas mountains for instance. But with the current regime introducing the Berber language back into schools and giving women increasing rights, I think it's on the right track. Plus some of the best street food on the planet.

 

[Bleepey]

I have heard a lot of people say that Atlanta is full of black-owned businesses left, right and centre. Is that correct? As for why African countries don't prosper, bad leadership, bad leadership, bad leadership. If you have kleptocratic morons like Mobutu, Abacha and co who are in business to fuck over their people, in a fair and just world they would be dragged through the streets, put up against a wall and shot but instead they stay in power for decades. It's not surprising they stay in power when leadership who did give a shit like Thomas Sankara or Patrice Lumumba somehow find themselves on the wrong side of a coup. It's not surprising that a lot of African countries fail.

 

[DeadTsar]

Read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond.

Much appreciated

 

[Dictator93]

Slave trade, colonialism, and the the exploitation of Africa through modern capitalism are the reasons.

It isn't hard to understand or even comprehend. It just makes sense.

 

[Bleepey]

But it is possible. Just look at India, China, Brazil several East Asian or even middle eastern or Latin American nations. It just takes time. A big problem for Africa is that real infrastructure investment was poor, and too many dictators were allowed to gain hold. Look at the difference between Pakistan and India in terms of development.

It is going to change. Nigeria will be a major developing player if it can contain the Islamic scourge known as Boko Haram. The question why is there no first world African nation is a poor one. Most don't have a history of major expansion, colonization, enslavement or exploitation of a native foreign population.

Additionally, many African nations just aren't able to get any development going that is beneficial for them in the long run. Many international mining companies make it near impossible for domestic companies to take hold. I remember watching a show where a villager wanted to mine gold at a local mine. He employed about ten people, would feed them and pay them wages, he created living quarters, dug a well for water. Established a nice little community. Big problem was, this Norwegian company wanted to mine the gold there as well. They paid off the local ministers who don't really care or have any large future vision. In the end, they rezoned the mining rights, that guy lost his patch of independent mine etc. When the mine is completely dry, that international company will move on while there is nothing left for the people in that town.

Now China is heavily investing money, but employs almost slave labor like conditions. They pay off government officials, get the local populace working just like the poor mainland Chinese and while sure there are nice new roads, and hotels, it just makes it tough for anything meaningful to last.

As for South Africa, a big issue was you gave people who weren't in power, power. Nelson Mandela was smart and realized it would take a long time to integrate the people, and would need to maintain the white hegemony in his country. However that started to change under the newer leadership after Mandela. White businesses and farms taken, much like in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, an exodus of white South Africans out of the country, taking their money, their contributions to the economy with them etc. Crime is high in South Africa, and the nation is in decline. Corruption is very rife.

The right conditions need to exist for a nation to grow. Whether it's the perfect political climate, domestic policy, foreign policy. Why has Poland flourished while an Azerbaijan would never be considered first world? Why has the UAE become amazing, whereas Yemen is a shithole? Why has Singapore become the Asian Switzerland, while Myanmar is a dump?

Personally, the next great African nation will have a strong nationalist government and people. They can't see themselves as African, any more than Indians see themselves as Asian. They would need to promote a distinct 'identity' if you will. They need a strong leader, not necessarily Democratic, they need a strong central government and strong control over any state or municipality within. They need investment that creates jobs and lasting industry, don't look for the quick buck now, but something that will be there 30 years from now. Highways/freeways for easy transport, a strong port/shipping system, and world class airports. Let's see what happens.

A better example would be North and South Korea.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

A nice start would be to get rid of the male post 50 quasi dictator rulers that plague the continent, and kick out the multi national companies that robs the continent of resources while paying slave wages, with much aid from the above mentioned rulers.

African countries for the most part need good democratically founded governments, and to take control of their own economy and resources.

 

[driver116]

I've been watching the BBC Documentary "Slow Train Through Africa with Griff Rhys Jones" and its fantastic, highly recommend it to everyone. The first country they showed, Namibia, looked absolutely nothing like what I think about when I hear Africa (warlords, starvation, war, brutality, etc) and the cities they showed looked rich and fairly prosperous.

I second this (it's ITV btw). The only problem is it's only 5 episodes.

 

[biggersmaller]

That pictures reminds me of the infamous SPACE MOORS thread.

Oh my god.

 

[0OoO0]

Watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-4V3HR696k

It will explain Why Some Countries Are Poor and Others Rich.

 

[SliceSabre]

It will never happen because the West and East have an interest in keeping Africans poor, underfoot and easily exploited.

 

[Dictator93]

It will never happen because the West and East have an interest in keeping Africans poor, underfoot and easily exploited.

ding ding ding

China's large scale land and natural resource investment in Africa for example.

 

[Dylan]

Anyone interested in the tumultuous modern history of Africa from a U.N. perspective, I highly recommend this book.

 

[Jeevesmeister]

Has anyone on GAF actually been to Africa? Not asking this with snark, I'm genuinely curious, and I don't mean on a service trip to the poorest areas. Most of the Nigerians and South Africans I know aren't exactly blown away by our "first world" society.

Yeah, me. I spent some months last year in Ghana, north of the capital Accra in Adenta. I was CMO of a solar startup and shipped out to get some projects off the ground over there. I dealt with everything from bribes to corruption to a single electric company holding a monopoly over an entire nation's electrical grid and being the most incompetent, corrupt, greedy assholes you could ever run into to people wanting me to take them back to America with me to YOU COME WITH ME I SHOW YOU REAL AFRICAN MAGIC to a restaurant chain called Peter Pan that I'm pretty sure didn't have a license for all the Disney imagery it was using to nearly being detained by the military for corporate espionage, which I got pretty good at (you'd be shocked how many people leave sensitive documents on the desktop or in temp folders of hotel business center computers) admittedly.

Ghana too

Bullshit.

Wealth is concentrated in a very small area in Ghana and you can almost draw a physical line in the sand where it plummets off the face of the Earth. Remember all those "microfinance" loans to get everyone to start their own business or whatever? Now Ghana has an entire market of sellers and nobody buying. Predatory lending is all over the place, it's advertised everywhere you look.

Outside of Accra the electrical grid is hilariously unstable, with constant outages and a comically fucked up pre-paid swipe card system that will happily let you load money onto it, let you swipe it and charge the card, then not register the fact the electrical company owes you electricity. Don't even get me started on individual wiring situations - my apartment had the power go out every 4 hours for 1 hour and nobody knew how to fix it, and this was when the power wasn't going out for days at a time.

Don't even get me started on garbage disposal.

Cops will regularly hit you up for bribes. Motorcycle taxis are illegal yet cops run their own motorcycle taxi rackets from all the impounded bikes. Cops consistently have the nicest vehicles on the road, from fancy BMW motorcycles to brand new Toyota pickup trucks. If you need to get anything like, say, electric vehicles, shipped through port you can either risk a lengthy paperwork process where if it takes too long the freight will be auctioned off, or pay off some more bribes.

That's not even getting started on foreign exploitation. A Japanese aid organization installed a solar plant for a University facility that generates power for two hours and then has to shut off for an hour, and they still have to rely on the local electric company. Worse yet, this Japanese organization doesn't budget or give anything for repairs or maintenance, and obviously in a place like Ghana there isn't much in the way of solar engineers or specialists, so to keep it running becomes a money pit for for the University - but you can be damn sure some fat paychecks were cut for the contractors and the Japanese people sent over to install said facility. There's constantly shit like this happening.

Chinese backed construction projects are everywhere in the capital. It's usually one Chinese guy overseeing a lot of Ghanaian workers. I don't know as much about it as I should.

Most depressing part was the overall sentiment of Ghanaians just wanting to get the fuck out and start a new life in America or Europe, and just trying to survive as best they could.

As has been said, it's a pretty big place, and it's almost three or four different topics wren you talk about Northern Africa, South Africa, West Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa in general.

Just want to empathize this point at the end of my diatribe here as its one hundred percent true - I'm one guy who was working in one country to try and help alleviate these problems and build renewable energy solutions in a developing nation - my perception shouldn't be seen as an absolute.

There are no easy answers to solving these problems, and there's still a great deal of foreign exploitation taking place today across the continent, as well as local corruption that gets a pass without question. After nearly six decades of independence, it's hard to see a real path to true sovereign independence as a developed nation for places like Ghana, whose recent World Cup scandal was a rather cathartic release for me to watch play out having just returned from that country last year.

 

[trineo_feo]

Aren't they on the come up? I remember reading about it. Bill Gates is doing stuff over there as well. This City apparently got to this state in a decade

Looks cool.

I was two months ago in that places pictured. They might look OK in pictures but trust me, Lagos is still faaaaaaar from a "1st world" city.

 

[Funky Papa]

nm

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Botswana's not doing so bad, at least in terms of GDP/capita they're up there.

 

[Vitten]

Namibia was a pretty chill place when I visited it a few years ago. Certainly didn't give me 3rd world ghetto vibes.
Can recommend a visit there to anyone, awesome country to drive around in a rental.

I could actually see myself live in a place like Swakopmund, their main seaside city which had a ton of cool attractions.

 

[Mumei]

It will never happen because the West and East have an interest in keeping Africans poor, underfoot and easily exploited.

The trade in oil, gas, gems, metals and rare earth minerals wreaks havoc in Africa. During the years when Brazil, India, China and the other “emerging markets” have transformed their economies, Africa’s resource states remained tethered to the bottom of the industrial supply chain. While Africa accounts for about 30 per cent of the world’s reserves of hydrocarbons and minerals and 14 per cent of the world’s population, its share of global manufacturing stood in 2011 exactly where it stood in 2000: at 1 percent.

In his first book, The Looting Machine, Tom Burgis exposes the truth about the African development miracle: for the resource states, it's a mirage. The oil, copper, diamonds, gold and coltan deposits attract a global network of traders, bankers, corporate extractors and investors who combine with venal political cabals to loot the states' value. And the vagaries of resource-dependent economies could pitch Africa’s new middle class back into destitution just as quickly as they climbed out of it. The ground beneath their feet is as precarious as a Congolese mine shaft; their prosperity could spill away like crude from a busted pipeline.

This catastrophic social disintegration is not merely a continuation of Africa’s past as a colonial victim. The looting now is accelerating as never before. As global demand for Africa’s resources rises, a handful of Africans are becoming legitimately rich but the vast majority, like the continent as a whole, is being fleeced. Outsiders tend to think of Africa as a great drain of philanthropy. But look more closely at the resource industry and the relationship between Africa and the rest of the world looks rather different. In 2010, fuel and mineral exports from Africa were worth $333 billion, more than seven times the value of the aid that went in the opposite direction. But who received the money? For every Frenchwoman who dies in childbirth, 100 die in Niger alone, the former French colony whose uranium fuels France’s nuclear reactors. In petro-states like Angola three-quarters of government revenue comes from oil. The government is not funded by the people, and as result it is not beholden to them. A score of African countries whose economies depend on resources are rentier states; their people are largely serfs. The resource curse is not merely some unfortunate economic phenomenon, the product of an intangible force. What is happening in Africa’s resource states is systematic looting. Like its victims, its beneficiaries have names.

I haven't read it yet, but it's clearly about the exact thing you're talking about. It's a continuation of centuries of earlier exploitation of the continent and its people.

 

[terrisus]

Aren't they on the come up? I remember reading about it. Bill Gates is doing stuff over there as well. This City apparently got to this state in a decade

Looks cool.

What city is this?

Atlanta.

I initially read that as "Atlantis" >.>

 

[hobblygobbly]

Corruption is rife in Africa (yes, it's all over the world), but the corruption in Africa is a bit different, particularly the use of tax.

Also, South Africa has been in a weird place for a very long time. We all know that during Apartheid rule South Africa was "first world" obviously, the tech at the time, politics and so on. After Apartheid in 1994 a lot of this carried on and improved and holds up to standards of today, but other parts, some areas of poverty and inequality in the country still exist. For example, the Koeberg Nuclear Power Station began in Apartheid. In some places it's what you'll consider first world, in some places, not so much.

If you're privileged and fortunate enough to live in the cities, life is not all that different from other smallish first world cities. A drive around Cape Town A drive around Durban.

Cities like Cape Town have the same traits as you'd expect from many other first world ones, but it's when you start leaving the cities to rural areas, that's where the poverty is really bad, and places like townships. The bad poverty in these areas create bad crime overall.

I've been in South Africa many times, I have friends there, I know what the government is like, there's a lot of corruption and it affects middle class to lower class/poverty stricken areas. When I'm saying corrupt, I'm saying they are stealing tax money straight up, like Jacob Zuma's Nkandla issue and Gupta-gate.

South Africa does have some better laws than other first world countries, for example South Africa was one of the first countries to grant 100% full rights to LGBT. Everything the LGBT community would want is 100% legal in South Africa, as well as laws regarding women rights.

It just depends on some areas of the country, like poverty areas/townships where sangomas tell young men who have AIDS that raping virgins or babies can cure them, it became a wide spread issue. Also a big issue recently is the xenophobic attacks in townships, all due to poverty. However now and then there is taxi violence which has been an issue

Right now there are major power shortage issues, the grid can just barely reach demand (and the country already supplies the most power in the Southern Hemisphere). The reason why there's a shortage is because over the last 20 years corruption has caused the failure of new power plants of being created (there's a lot to read up about it, starting from Medupi). So now in 2015 the country sits with 2 hour rolling black outs almost daily. Only reason is because there is growth of the country but not enough power and the corruption regarding tenders and contracting etc with tax money has caused these new plants not be created or extremely delayed. This is the sort of shit that holds back third world/developing countries. So the government doesn't take responsibility but had blamed Apartheid government for this recently, yet it was the ANC's responsibility for the last 20 years already (more than enough time, plus money, plus resources) to secure a grid that can supply the growth. A lot of lack of accountability exists within South Africa's government because Apartheid is a very easy scape goat in its politics. Yes Apartheid has resulted in some issues that still exist today, but it has nothing to do with the issues of corruption under the ANC government for the last 20 years.

South Africa is a huge mixed bag of first and third world. I can tell you as someone who has been there a lot, corruption is the #1 issue with pretty much everything at least here. Also wage/trade union issues.

As someone that has years of experience in South Africa there's way, way, way too much to say about all the good and all the bad and why it has these issues. I haven't been to other African countries other than Namibia, so I can't speak for a whole continent. Just of South Africa. I have seen the rich, the middle class and the poor/poverty parts of the country. It's a scary difference of going from what you'd see in a city which is good to what you'd see in a township and the difference of society. It's very jarring. You have to ask yourself if you're even in the same country. Huge gap of inequality in regards to that.

Has anyone on GAF actually been to Africa? Not asking this with snark, I'm genuinely curious, and I don't mean on a service trip to the poorest areas. Most of the Nigerians and South Africans I know aren't exactly blown away by our "first world" society.

As has been said, it's a pretty big place, and it's almost three or four different topics wren you talk about Northern Africa, South Africa, West Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa in general.

I'm in South Africa right now (I have dual citizenship, I'm German) and typing from here!

 

[Cedric]

Has anyone on GAF actually been to Africa? Not asking this with snark, I'm genuinely curious, and I don't mean on a service trip to the poorest areas. Most of the Nigerians and South Africans I know aren't exactly blown away by our "first world" society.

As has been said, it's a pretty big place, and it's almost three or four different topics wren you talk about Northern Africa, South Africa, West Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa in general.

Yup, Rwanda, South Africa, Ivory Coast, Ethiopia and Niger. I was pretty young back then but I loved Addis Abeba (Ethiopia) and Cape Town (SA). Rwanda is also on the come-up, the country's done good progress and Kigali is changing really fast.

 

[magnificent83]

Ghana too

Lol, no

Nigeria is now the biggest economy in Africa so...

The problem in Africa is imo a weird one. The slave trade held them back, but serious, serious corruption is one of the main issues now. It's crazy.

You don't know the half of it. Corruption, trade imbalance and inability to govern is slowly destroying any growth we had in Ghana

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation in here.

There is

Has anyone on GAF actually been to Africa? Not asking this with snark, I'm genuinely curious, and I don't mean on a service trip to the poorest areas. Most of the Nigerians and South Africans I know aren't exactly blown away by our "first world" society.

As has been said, it's a pretty big place, and it's almost three or four different topics wren you talk about Northern Africa, South Africa, West Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa in general.

I live in Ghana, i wasn't blown away by my time in the US but there's a level of efficiency you can count on in your day to day life. You don't get that here at all. It can get frustration especially when the leaders tasked with taking the country forward consistently seem to do what's best for their party/supporters and themselves.

 

[BokehKing]

Is anyone even making an effort to transform it to a 1st world country? I always see people talking about fixing this country or that country (besides africa) but are there people willing to dedicate their lives to bring about that change? Because it's definitely not a part time job

 

[Silentium]

OP have a look at history and development of Botswana. It went from per capita GDP of $70 in the 1960s, to $16,400 in 2013, placing it firmly in the middle-income range of countries. Has a pretty well developed democracy and system of government (Wikipedia is telling me ranked 30th out of 167 worldwide). I think they were pretty successful because they managed to avoid the Socialist/Communist temptation during the Cold War; went with the superior democratic capitalist method, seems to be paying dividends now! Unfortunately, country is cursed with an incredible high rate of HIV/AIDS, which has potential to cause issues in the future.

 

[TedNindo]

Too much local corruption, conflicts and exploitation by multinationals.

Best what could happen is investments and industry growth like in the bric countries. Which will bring it's own exploitation until enough money flows into the country for it to rise up. And it creates more need for education and it would be benificial to the global economy because they would want our products and expertise.

You can see China investing in Africa already. It's a continent with a lot of potential.


I sometimes wonder what Afrika would have become if it developed on its own. But the whole world basically copied western capitalism. I understand why though. If it works it works like a well oiled and fairly efficient machine. But the west has hundreds of years of experience as a foundation. And I imagine it being a huge task to get civilisation running like that if the base is faulty because of corruption, inexperience, lack of resources, infrastructure and education.

 

[soundahfekz]

You really think Africa would be better of/computing with western countries if we had never been there?

oh wow

 

[TacticalFox88]

You really think Africa would be better of/computing with western countries if we had never been there?

....There are so many implications in this post I don't even know where to start.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Looks cool.

Atlanta.

Being from Atlanta...

















lol

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Egypt's government delusional believes it's part of the Middle East

It's not really delusionally. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt are all much more closely connected to Europe and the Middle East than they are to Africa. Their history is very different to the rest of Africa; they've always been part of the polity system of Eurasia and interconnected with other Eurasian nations in a way most African countries simply were not; because of the geographical border imposed by the Sahara. Classing them as 'African' nations is in itself a pretty European concept; they don't think of themselves that way.

 

[Prez]

It's a tragedy that global warming will undo any progress they'll make during the next 100 years.

Read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. It won the Pulitzer Prize for answering that exact question.

That book is total rubbish according to historians (which Diamond is not).

 

[Sticky&Sweet]

Africa is not "Africa", it's a continent with a number of independent countries. Just look at cities like Algiers, Cape Town, Nairobi, Tunis, Dar Es Salaam, Cairo, Casablanca, Lagos, Accra and Johannesburg.

As someone who has lived in Dar Es Salaam, you'll find most people are looking forward, rather than people in the west who are obsessed with the past.

 

[TheWarrior]

Well, this thing happened a while ago that you may have heard of...

Honestly with the exception of some outliers like Egypt I don't think that level of recovery is possible, especially with a significant number of governments having an investment in keeping a great deal of Africa underfoot.

Corporate interests are to have as many consumers as possible, the more people in Africa than can afford to consumer products the better for corporations. Look at China as an example. Communist nation that embraces American capitalism. It's not a matter of if, but when African nations start to rise in prosperity there will be many corporations that had a hand in it just for the sake of increasing their customer base.

 

[Jarate]

It's really a mixture of a lot of different things. Most of Africa was barred off from the world due to the Sahara desert providing an ecological barrier that stifled trade with the more advanced Northern Africa. North Africa on the other hand was not only heavily exploited by European Colonialism, but was also heavily exploited by the Muslims and Catholics who waged holy wars over the areas for many years which further hurt the people and enacted that region as more of a pawn then actual countries.

Corruption is rampant, and in general poverty is still an issue, but there's no reason to think that a few African nations aren't going to become major powers later down the line. A lot of nations have only been stable for 100 years at the most, and even then those nations are rife with political powers still fighting horrid wars. It took America over 150 years to set itself up as a world power, I don't think it's wrong to assume a country like Botswana would be on the up and up.

 

[double jump]

I've been watching the BBC Documentary "Slow Train Through Africa with Griff Rhys Jones" and its fantastic, highly recommend it to everyone. The first country they showed, Namibia, looked absolutely nothing like what I think about when I hear Africa (warlords, starvation, war, brutality, etc) and the cities they showed looked rich and fairly prosperous.

thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7YFJ7TTXBs

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Africa is not "Africa", it's a continent with a number of independent countries. Just look at cities like Algiers, Cape Town, Nairobi, Tunis, Dar Es Salaam, Cairo, Casablanca, Lagos, Accra and Johannesburg.

As someone who has lived in Dar Es Salaam, you'll find most people are looking forward, rather than people in the west who are obsessed with the past.

The thread ask a question.... the answer to the question is largely due to the happenings of the past.

And simply looking at cities is NOT the way to determine whether you're "1st World" or not.

 

[Caronte]

Africa is not "Africa", it's a continent with a number of independent countries.

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[CadetMahoney]

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

Just like a good parent gives their child support and teaches them things, the proper way to help anoher country is not to financially support them, but to teach them how to do things on their own.

The U.S. and other western nations don't have the best interest in mind for third world countries. They like the current global political hierarchy and will forever make sure it stays that way one way or another.

So they prefer the aid they send is conditioning them live on handouts. "We'll stop foreign aid if you don't do this." Also they do things like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

Perkins' function was to convince the political and financial leadership of underdeveloped countries to accept enormous development loans from institutions like the World Bank and USAID. Saddled with debts they could not hope to pay, those countries were forced to acquiesce to political pressure from the United States on a variety of issues.

Plus they don't want ppl coming back for payback. And there will be some payback you can count on that.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

You really think Africa would be better of/computing with western countries if we had never been there?

Who's we

And "we'll" never know will "we"

 

[Deleted member 231381]

That book is total rubbish according to historians (which Diamond is not).

Historians aren't some homogenous bloc with identically shared opinions. Different historians have different opinions on the strength of Diamond's arguments. I'd say the most common summary is that the book is relatively strong at explaining divergences in very early human history [why agriculture developed in some places before others] and gets much weaker at explaining more recent divergences [why 'Christian' military technology developed more rapidly than 'Islamic' military technology].

If we're talking solely about sub-Saharan Africa, that makes Diamond's work quite useful. It's simply true that below the Sahara, there are very few wild plants which are predisposed towards being domesticated. This made the emergence of large-scale sub-Saharan agricultural societies very difficult; which meant that at the time of European contact with sub-Saharan socieities beginning in the late 1400s, Europeans had certain advantages they could leverage. Now, you still need an argument for *why* Europeans chose to leverage this advantage, and this requires a political and cultural explanation that Diamond is lacking, focusing purely as he does in environmental determinism; but it's a useful work up until that point.