Support NeoGAF

[Ranger X]

This thread is really ridiculous...

Are you guys aware that there are SAFE SCREEN RULES for approval both on PS3 and 360? And I am talking for HD games there. Overscan doesn't have anything to do with CRT vs LCD or SD vs HD. lol

If you want to know what happens right now on the WiiU, backtrack my posts in this thread.

 

[frankie_baby]

I was just thinking that a lot of the older generation don't really follow technology as closely yet were targeted by the Wii. My parents bought a Wii but are still using a 60 inch plasma SDTV and don't see a reason to upgrade.

I was more just curious about the Wii demographics, I tried googling it but apparently I suck at google.

Most people young and old have bought HDTVs primarily because they're flat and don't take up much space, your parents belong to a very very small slice of the market that actually own an SD flat screen, personally I don't know anyone that owns one as by the time flat screens became even slightly mainstream price they were all HD

 

[Tagg9]

This thread is really ridiculous...

Are you guys aware that there are SAFE SCREEN RULES for approval both on PS3 and 360? And I am talking for HD games there. Overscan doesn't have anything to do with CRT vs LCD or SD vs HD. lol

If you want to know what happens right now on the WiiU, backtrack my posts in this thread.

Exactly. The same response is given whenever someone complains that the font size is too small for subtitles/HUD/etc. "It's your own fault - get a bigger TV!" The point is that it should display appropriately for pretty much every customer.

 

[Ranger X]

Exactly. The same response is given whenever someone complains that the font size is too small for subtitles/HUD/etc. "It's your own fault - get a bigger TV!" The point is that it should display appropriately for pretty much every customer.

Ignorance is bliss.
Most people in this thread probably don't know their own HDTV is actually overscanning! But they can't noticed because the games they play respected the safe screen rules for being approved and put to market!

 

[Dreamwriter]

Anecdotal, but I haven't seen a SD TV for sale anywhere where we live since about 2004 or 2005, and I remember because we specifically had to get one (long story) and we wound up having to get it from Walmart which only had a very small selection at that point. I actually wound up working at that Walmart for a bit, and when I left in early 2005 all they were still selling that were SD were those ridiculously huge big screen ones.

It's in large part because the US made it illegal to manufacture non-digital TV's, and of course once LCD screens got affordable, it was MUCH cheaper and easier to ship and store "flat screen" TV's than big old heavy CRT's.

 

[wizzbang]

Never thought I'd be one of those stubborn 'you're doing it wrong' assholes but...........
If you're pairing a brand new console with a 4:3 TV, then sorry but ..... what are you doing?

There shouldn't be any 4:3 support at all, it's just wasting developer time.
Televisions themselves should handle 4:3 signals from old consoles from those who want to run them - sure! but new consoles shouldn't need to worry about pairing the way you have. There's bigger fish to fry.

Sorry just how I see it.
Before you tell me how expensive HDTV's are, craigslist has people offloading their 37 to 50" TV's dirt cheap because they want 65+" TV's nowadays. I myself plan to sell my 50" for 300$ or so in the next couple of months. Perfectly good Panasonic plasma.

4:3 is dead.

 

[MoxManiac]

Who uses optical anymore?
Who uses ethernet anymore?
Who uses 4:3 tv anymore?

I never thought nintendo would be the one to draw the line in the sand on "old" technology.

Ethernet is still the most optimal and preferrable choice for online gaming. The only advantage wireless has is convienence.

 

[frankie_baby]

Ethernet is still the most optimal and preferrable choice for online gaming. The only advantage wireless has is convienence.

And wii u still has an option for the small (tiny?) Minority that want to use Ethernet

 

[XANDER CAGE]

According to Nintendo, most of the Wii crowd only have SDTV. I guess they will be forced to upgrade due to Nintendo's negligence.

What makes this even more crazy is that these systems can support both aspect ratios. It's not either/or.

I... yes, I agree with you there. I said that the dumb part here is the fact that their support for older displays should work as intended. In the link I posted earlier I pointed out that Nintendo is at least aware that there are markets that can't afford the Wii U, and I'd bet money that they're also assuming that crowd doesn't own an HDTV.

Who's the Wii U's target demographic and what percentage owns 16:9 displays?

Also, you do realize it's absolutely trivial for a console to support both aspect ratios, right?

Hang on a second, didn't you ju-

According to Nintendo, most of the Wii crowd only have SDTV. I guess they will be forced to upgrade due to Nintendo's negligence.

Am I not allowed to spectulate?

Anyway, as I linked earlier, the Wii U target demographic can afford/already has an HDTV. That's why it supports HD in the first place, and it's why you see Nintendo saying stuff like this:

Said emerging markets probably wouldn't be worth selling the relatively expensive (and already being sold at a loss) Wii U in, and I don't believe the Wii itself has had much of a push in said markets. In fact, they only recently started talking about marketing the original Wii in Eastern Europe and Latin America in September. I believe the Wii Mini rumor partially has to do with these markets as well.



As far as I know the Wii is already sold (and does pretty well) in some parts of Latin America, but I'm fairly sure retailers buy them through wholesalers rather than through Nintendo. I don't know that for a fact, though.

Yes, it's dumb that the 4:3 feature does not work properly. However, we are definitely approaching a time where SDTV is not going to be supported at all.

 

[grap3fruitman]

False. Anything is going to look like shit on an SDTV from a modern console.

You were talking about image quality, not resolution. Thus, CRT is still king.

 

[donny2112]

According to Nintendo, most of the Wii crowd only have SDTV.

Don't recall Nintendo ever having said this. They (correctly) said that with the launch of the Wii that HDTV penetration was not anywhere close to 100%, but don't recall them ever saying that most Wii owners used an SDTV with it.

Link?

 

[plagiarize]

This thread is really ridiculous...

Are you guys aware that there are SAFE SCREEN RULES for approval both on PS3 and 360? And I am talking for HD games there. Overscan doesn't have anything to do with CRT vs LCD or SD vs HD. lol

If you want to know what happens right now on the WiiU, backtrack my posts in this thread.

how much longer do you suppose archaic TVs should dictate the position of hud elements?

 

[Haunted]

Im just going from what Nintendo itself had said about its demographic for the Wii. I doubt its changed significantly since then. Point is, many people still own SDTV's so acting like it's a non issue especially for a console whos demographic at the very least has a much higher percentage of SDTV users than xbox or playstation is foolish.

You actually believe HDTV numbers have not changed significantly between 2006 and 2012?

I think I've found the problem with your argument.

Are you guys aware that there are SAFE SCREEN RULES for approval both on PS3 and 360? And I am talking for HD games there. Overscan doesn't have anything to do with CRT vs LCD or SD vs HD. lol

Didn't Blow complain about that silly rule on his blog recently? Let developers use the screen estate like they want to.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Didn't Blow complain about that silly rule on his blog recently? Let developers use the screen estate like they want to.

It's never as clean cut: platform holders don't want to look bad because software that customers bought don't work like they think they should, so in turn they get the complaint and negative reception. Platform holders pass the buck to devs to make sure it looks right.

 

[Eusis]

how much longer do you suppose archaic TVs should dictate the position of hud elements?

A lot longer than most would like, given many LCD (and presumably plasma) HDTVs assuming overscan without any option to disable. Which is why something like this is an issue, it's one thing to be cut off on your stubbornly clung to SDTV from the mid to late 90s that may well have a gross level of overscan (I SWEAR I had problems on an SDTV even with some SD games), it's another when you got a nice HDTV about 5 years ago and STILL get it cut off.

And there's clearly not really much of a need to do too much work to go out of the way for SDTV owners here, given the OS stuff seems to be letterboxed, I actually doubt we'll even see proper 4:3 support for games short of classic releases or games copying their style.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

All Im saying that for Nintendo this is a bigger problem considering its target demographic. I'm pretty sure most of their demographic don't own HDTV's, compared to xbox/ps where most of its target demographic do own HDTV's.

lol, come on dude.

ITT: we feign outrage over an "issue" that affects just about nobody, and certainly not the majority of people pretending to be appalled.

 

[Ranger X]

how much longer do you suppose archaic TVs should dictate the position of hud elements?

In my opinion you tell that to TV makers or TV channels. Why are HDTVs still having overscan? THAT is the real problem. If they didn't, console could ignore the safe screen rules. TV makers are making their TV overscan because of regular TV channels not being able to display their fucking TV programs at the right ratio since AGES. So where should the blame go? It's FAR from consoles, they only try to make things works for the end user that's all, and that's fine like that. I'm sure Ninty will have safe screen rules on WiiU because it's still sadly extremely pertinent because of TV makers (that are doing overscan because of regular TV). It's just that right now they didn't blink a eye on those things so the first batch of WiiU games could be ready in time for launch.

 

[Eusis]

Actually, I'd kinda figure/hope that with good scaling chips we wouldn't really NEED to worry about safe screen areas for games now, just do some calibration upon setup and all games can fit that area perfectly, with displays that actually do factor out overscan able to max those settings out fully. But then maybe there's something I'm missing?

 

[phosphor112]

I got a 42inch 1080p LG tv for way under £300, can I ask how much SD-TV using people are waiting to pay REALISTICALLY for a decent HD-TV?

The irony of the Wii being SD and then the Wii-U then alienating all SD users is still amusing though.

I'm sorry. Enjoy that lag.

 

[Azure Dream]

Actually, I'd kinda figure/hope that with good scaling chips we wouldn't really NEED to worry about safe screen areas for games now, just do some calibration upon setup and all games can fit that area perfectly, with displays that actually do factor out overscan able to max those settings out fully. But then maybe there's something I'm missing?

Honestly, this is the heart of it. It wouldn't matter if you had a 16:9 screen, for a 4:3 screen, or 3:2 or 1:1 or whatever, except for how much of the screen would be letterboxed (and the game image shrunk). It really should be a system level configuration, that you set up the first time you hook up the console.

Maybe the Wii U has no equivalent to the HANA scaler chip in the 360, though. But even then, would it be impossible to enforce scaling dimensions system-wide?

 

[Eusis]

I imagine if the Wii U didn't have something like that on some level we wouldn't have Wii games upscaling to 720p or 1080p. Would've been nice if that could've been smart and detected if games were or weren't widescreen, but the Wii probably should've been capable of telling televisions that it was widescreen or not in the first place.

 

[RM8]

Oh, man. I understand SDTV support is ridiculous at this point, but this means my WiiU won't be in my room soon, where I use a SDTV because I honestly play more old consoles than PS3 and it's also better for Wii. My SDTV isn't leaving anytime soon... I guess I'll have two TVs in my room. I just need to find a tiny HDTV wit no input lag now :/

 

[donny2112]

I just need to find a tiny HDTV wit no input lag now :/

Get a computer monitor with HDMI input. Those tend to have really good response times.

 

[Alexios]

So, why do HDTVs have over/underscan at all? is it that hard to just show the image as is? Does it only happen when the source image isn't at the native res of the TV? Doesn't it also affect image quality if the pixels aren't where they should be but instead moved around and even resized? But really I don't see why a TV has to be worse in that aspect than a monitor. Or do monitors overscan too when you connect consoles to them and it's the PC OS or GPU that keeps it in check otherwise?

 

[donny2112]

Or do monitors overscan too when you connect consoles to them and it's the PC OS or GPU that keeps it in check otherwise?

No idea, but monitors do let you move around the picture on the screen. Maybe everyone just compensates for it that way when they first start using a monitor and then forget about it?

 

[daycru]

There's enough to legitimately criticize about the Wii U without creating new grievances.

 

[Mit-]

When I used the "if you can afford a $400+ HD console you can afford an HDTV of some size" argument 3-4 years ago it got nothing but incredible, seething hatred in response.

Now everyone is using that argument. Wat :V

Also input lag shouldn't be an issue anymore, seeing as the Wii U is an actual HD console and won't lag like hell on the majority of HDTVs. Now it will only lag for the minority of people with a bad HDTV that lags when upscaling 720p to 1080p, and those people have likely been putting up with it for a while now.

So, why do HDTVs have over/underscan at all? is it that hard to just show the image as is? Does it only happen when the source image isn't at the native res of the TV? Doesn't it also affect image quality if the pixels aren't where they should be but instead moved around and even resized? But really I don't see why a TV has to be worse in that aspect than a monitor. Or do monitors overscan too when you connect consoles to them and it's the PC OS or GPU that keeps it in check otherwise?

Some TV's don't have an actual native resolution of 1280x720 or 1920x1080. So there's cropping there (does that still qualify the term "overscan"?). It's readily apparent for some TV's. If you plug a PC input in, it usually isn't happy. You can see the mouse disappear along the edges, and a lot of times more zooming/scaling options become available. My TV has a 'dot-for-dot' mode that shows every pixel, and I assume it actually has a 1920x1080 native resolution, although 'dot-for-dot' was not the default scaling and it does clip the edges when set to the default method.

 

[dark10x]

So, why do HDTVs have over/underscan at all? is it that hard to just show the image as is? Does it only happen when the source image isn't at the native res of the TV? Doesn't it also affect image quality if the pixels aren't where they should be but instead moved around and even resized? But really I don't see why a TV has to be worse in that aspect than a monitor. Or do monitors overscan too when you connect consoles to them and it's the PC OS or GPU that keeps it in check otherwise?

I believe it's a bit of a legacy issue.

Older CRT televisions couldn't easily draw the complete image right out to the edges without introducing severe geometry issues so they would draw into the "overscan" region to offset this problem. Content which took advantage of this, then, would wind up displaying black borders around the image which is likely why it continued to persist even on flat panels.

 

[madmackem]

I'm sorry. Enjoy that lag.

Joke right, i had a lgtv in the games room because it had one of the lowest input lags on a lcd.

 

[theman5141]

This is, in fact, a fairly troubling issue - albeit somewhat minor relative to the far more pressing issues with the OS software layer. Some of us simply cannot afford to game on anything more sophisticated than a 480p 32" screen. We're not luddites.

This may not impact me, as I have already resolved to become a late adopter. However, I can only imagine the scores of livid SD gamers.

 

[dark10x]

This is, in fact, a fairly troubling issue - albeit somewhat minor relative to the far more pressing issues with the OS software layer. Some of us simply cannot afford to game on anything more sophisticated than a 480p 32" screen. We're not luddites.

This may not impact me, as I have already resolved to become a late adopter. However, I can only imagine the scores of livid SD gamers.

Service mode is your friend.

While you can't completely eliminate overscan, you can certainly reduce it to the point where it won't be an issue. Any CRT worth a damn will allow you to make this adjustment.

 

[Palette Swap]

And wii u still has an option for the small (tiny?) Minority that want to use Ethernet

This is simply not true. Ethernet shouldn't be viewed as some kind of legacy tech, that's just asinine. Ethernet still receives updates: on the protocol layer for example, IEEE 802.1aq is a carrier grade revision from this year. On the physical layer, IEEE still intends to develop a terabyte interface in the coming years.

From a consumer standpoint, there are a number of use cases were Wifi will still lag behind Ethernet: if your environment isn't radio friendly for example (thick walls, that kind of things) and/or if your applications are too demanding on bandwidth. Typically, I can't stream 1080p at home from my PC to my PS3 because there's just not enough bandwidth available over wifi given my environment (separate rooms).

Don't get me wrong, wifi is a great tech that makes life easier very often, but by no means does it make Ethernet obsolete. Thinking otherwise is ignorant.

I can totally see why Nintendo wouldn't support it out of the box, but don't compare it to 4:3 SD.

 

[Mit-]

This is, in fact, a fairly troubling issue - albeit somewhat minor relative to the far more pressing issues with the OS software layer. Some of us simply cannot afford to game on anything more sophisticated than a 480p 32" screen. We're not luddites.

This may not impact me, as I have already resolved to become a late adopter. However, I can only imagine the scores of livid SD gamers.

Can you go into any nonpersonal details on why you can't afford to game on anything better?

I'd consider a ~22" 1080p monitor to be better for gaming in this day and age than a 32" 480p screen (you sure it's 480p? And not 480i? Is it an actual widescreen 32" 480p monitor?), and you can often find decent ones on sale for ~$120-$140. As a late adopter, how much have you resolved to pay for a Wii U? Surely not lower than $150.

For me, an HDTV was a priority before jumping into the HD console generation. I made sure to get something before saving up for a game console. I didn't regret it.

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

Overscan is kept for broadcast material, there can be lines and junk data in those areas when the input is 1:1.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I believe it's a bit of a legacy issue.

Older CRT televisions couldn't easily draw the complete image right out to the edges without introducing severe geometry issues so they would draw into the "overscan" region to offset this problem. Content which took advantage of this, then, would wind up displaying black borders around the image which is likely why it continued to persist even on flat panels.

Yep, the reason why there are still overscan settings is primarily that all SD TV content was designed to use it. Since TVs have to have the ability to display both legacy content and new one, there's still Overscan.

The problem with Overscan is that there was no standard for implementing it among TV manufacturers. Many cheap SDTV sets had horrible overscan settings, while others almost had none.

Catering to all those possible configurations just isn't worth it anymore from a financial point of view. Surely you have some customers with problems but those are insignificant to them as a corporation.

Realistically, you can't expect them to put much support for this. What you can expect from them to implement a simple OS level screen size customization tool.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

Can you go into any nonpersonal details on why you can't afford to game on anything better?

I'd consider a ~22" monitor to be better for gaming in this day and age than a 32" 480p screen, and you can often find decent ones on sale for ~$120-$140. As a late adopter, how much have you resolved to pay for a Wii U? Surely not lower than $150.

For me, an HDTV was a priority before jumping into the HD console generation. I made sure to get something before saving up for a game console. I didn't regret it.

How exactly can one answer a personal question nonpersonally?

Some people get presents. They do not decide what they get and when they get them and in what order they get them.
Some people aren't as knowledged about a nintendo system as you are. Their are dads and moms and grandpas and uncles who just want to make their little ones happy and get them the latest nintendo system.

Some people would rather spend their money on games than the displays to their games.

The system says it supports 480, it should support 480. Not kinda support it, but fully support it. Small text on the xbox (and ps3?) was bad enough.

I do not understand why I had to type any of this.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Return your wiiU and buy a real tv.

Or seriously get one off craigslist.

There are 720p 30ish inch tvs on craiglist every day around here for 50$.

Not great sets but certainly better than an old sub hd 4:3.

 

[superchunk]

If you can afford a NEW $300-$350 console plus at least one $60 game, you can afford a $300 TV with HDMI connection.

I mean jesus.... HDTVs have been the only choice to buy for a few years now. Why does anyone buying a new gaming console even have a 4:3 SDTV?

I bought my first HDTV in Feb2010 and I thought I was a late adopter.

 

[dark10x]

Yep, the reason why there are still overscan settings is primarily that all SD TV content was designed to use it. Since TVs have to have the ability to display both legacy content and new one, there's still Overscan.

The problem with Overscan is that there was no standard for implementing it among TV manufacturers. Many cheap SDTV sets had horrible overscan settings, while others almost had none.

Well, there was always overscan on CRTs (even the very best), but severe overscan is usually a sign of a poor quality tube. Usually, on those sets, making adjustments to the settings would absolutely destroy picture geometry.

 

[chiablo]

Anyone who uses "input lag" as an excuse should just play on the controller and bypass the TV all together: controller lag test

Most higher end LCD displays include a "game mode" that reduce input lag by eliminating extra features that you don't need (like 120hz, cinema mode, etc.)

Also, this is a Wii U, you're not playing Quake 3, Street Fighter 2, or anything that requires that level of precision (at least not yet.) If you care about this type of game, you'll play it on a PC or XBox 360 where the framerate is high enough to facilitate your needs.

 

[Alexios]

This is, in fact, a fairly troubling issue - albeit somewhat minor relative to the far more pressing issues with the OS software layer. Some of us simply cannot afford to game on anything more sophisticated than a 480p 32" screen. We're not luddites.

This may not impact me, as I have already resolved to become a late adopter. However, I can only imagine the scores of livid SD gamers.

480P is EDTV not SDTV though.

I imagine Wii doesn't have as many issues there since the GamePad it scales to per game/feature is also 480P?

Plus that's widescreen, no?

 

[pulga]

lol who gives a shit. You guys are really starting to grasp at straws.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Well, there was always overscan on CRTs (even the very best), but severe overscan is usually a sign of a poor quality tube. Usually, on those sets, making adjustments to the settings would absolutely destroy picture geometry.

Yup, remembering that old POS my uncle had in his living room. Dreadfull stuff.

My first own TV was quite good at that, and had plenty of display settings (letterbox16:9/14:9, zoom) so overscan was never a real problem for me.

 

[Raistlin]

lol who gives a shit. You guys are really starting to grasp at straws.

Is it a signification issue? Obviously not.

But it's another straw in the list of A/V issues that are endemic with Wii U.

 

[Rolf NB]

I don't think it's overscan. Why? Because it cuts off only left/right. The top/down parts extend just as far on his excellent TV as they do on the controller screen. Overscan would mess up all four edges to the same degree.

And I just want say, anyone working at TV maker who still thinks it's a good idea to give a TV even the ability to do overscan on any signal beyond 480i needs a good kick in the ass.

 

[zruben]

wow, seriously?... we are running low on ammo now.

 

[Davey Cakes]

I just got a new HDTV recently, after having a Sony HD CRT for the last six years. It served us well, but was a power suck and took up too much space. Also, no options to adjust the overscan, which did appear very obviously on the Wii U.

The new TV has a "screen fit" mode which makes everything perfect. Thank heavens.

 

[Mithos]

How is the picture on a "HD-CRT Widescreen", just as bad or is it only an issue with 4:3 TV's?

Still having issues finding a HDTV that looks as good as my HD-CRT (that won't cost me a fortune).

 

[Eusis]

lol who gives a shit. You guys are really starting to grasp at straws.

Quite a few of us give a shit because it affects HDTVs that don't take into account that there may not be overscan in the video feed. The controller helps some, but the games probably look better on at least the HDTVs that don't take into account 1:1 pixel display, and even those CRTs probably look less washed out.

I don't think it's overscan. Why? Because it cuts off only left/right. The top/down parts extend just as far on his excellent TV as they do on the controller screen. Overscan would mess up all four edges to the same degree.

And I just want say, anyone working at TV maker who still thinks it's a good idea to give a TV even the ability to do overscan on any signal beyond 480i needs a good kick in the ass.

Oh, that's easy: the TV's 4:3 and the image is ALWAYS 16:9, letterboxing on 4:3 TVs. Thus the top and bottom have no reason to be cut off.

And, uhh, yes, the option to factor in overscan SHOULD stay (keyword being option), here is the opposite problem being exhibited. And also this thread's HD twin.

 

[Kokonoe]

Bonus: Every I start up my Wii U the image is displayed in black and white until I go into the settings and mess around with the resolution.

Thank you for writing this post, I was wondering why my new component cables for Wii U were making the screen black and white. These are gold plated and braided cables at that. So weird that it does this for 480.