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[Link Man]

JoJo 5

Wow, the action is really good, but this really is an exhausting series to try to marathon. And I'm having trouble caring about anything beyond the action, since it's so over-the-top and absurd.

 

[Jex]

I'm curious about how people feel about another aspect of spoilers. If there is a remake or a reimagination of a famous literary work, does it make sense for people to be protected from spoilers if the interest for most people would be on the execution rather than the story beats?

Let's take a few examples: Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, Frankenstein, The Count of Monte Cristo. These are all well known works, which I think any reasonable adult should be aware of. Most people would have studied at least one of them at some point, and anyone who is well-read should have exposed themselves to material such as this simply because they're important. They are also extremely influential works, where the themes and/or outcomes are continuously used as references for similar stories if not direct remakes.

In having an intellectual discussion about such a work, what should really be more important? "Protecting" new viewers from some perceived right to have an untarnished experience of not knowing what could happen at all, or encouraging the debate of how well such a work executes the reimaingation of the themes and/or how it adapts the original story into something else?

I think one of the best examples would be something like Gankutsuou. If it were released today, and people are talking about it, if all discussion about the original book is spoiler tagged, I think most pages of discussion for each episode would be just a ton of black bars everywhere. What's the opinion on that?

In the case of remakes or re-imaginings for works that are so well known I feel it's almost pointless to spoiler tag, say, Romeo and Juliet. For woks that are so well known the exercise makes no sense. Now, for remakes of completely obscure older works I'd recommend spoiler tags.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Where is Knights of Sydonia streaming? Don't see it on CR or Funi....

 

[Narag]

Way to prove my point for me. That music is perfect for the scene. It's definitely far better than Faulconer's mediocre score for the dub which only had one or two memorable tunes.

Never got the Faulconer love. Stuff generally sucks in a vacuum and seems to only get praised for the scenes it's associated with.

 

[Gbraga]

Interest rising.

What if I told you this is really absolutely nothing compared to the amount of stupidity that comes from this show?

It's incredible. Seriously.

JoJo 5

Wow, the action is really good, but this really is an exhausting series to try to marathon. And I'm having trouble caring about anything beyond the action, since it's so over-the-top and absurd.

I know exactly how you feel. Once I finished Phantom Blood I was kinda disappointed, I expected to like it a lot more, but give it a few days and you'll be screaming WRYYYYYYYYYYY like an idiot all the time and will be really excited for the rest.

It's especially amazing if you take a moment to discuss with someone some of the ridiculous bullshit that happened.

 

[darkside31337]

I like my anime posts like I like my top-secret government documents:

Spoiler

████████

On the real though, I'm not sure, though I don't really care if there are spoilers. Yes, if you're well-read you should probably know these works, but I think many famous works that might be built on by some anime pro might not be as well known by GAF members, especially if they aren't necessarily well-read or maybe come from a place or culture where the work in question isn't perhaps as well know. I'd rather have a page full of redactions and spoiler tags if it meat not spoiling someones enjoyment.

Additionally, if there are original twist or aspects of the remake that don't mix come from he original work (take at lot of what happens in Romeo x Juliet, for example), then, even the base work is well known and largely 'unspoilerable', I still think care should be take to perhaps not spoil at least parts of the remake.

Agreed. Shows like Romeo x Juliet and Gankutsuou have elements that obviously don't appear in the novel its based on and it has its own twists as well. Saying you should be free to spoil whatever the hell you want in a series because its based on something else is ridiculous. Where do you draw the line? Is there free reign on any anime adaptation of a well known (and what constitutes the definition of that) manga?

I think having common decency is a good thing in regards to spoilers. Its really not that hard to click once on some text but its a lot harder to choose to not read something that shows up on a page - especially when its without warning.

 

[survivor]

Lovely Complex 4

I wonder if there will ever be an episode in this show without the mention of anyone's height. At some point you need to realize you can make judgement without relating back to how short or tall you are.

 

[Narag]

I do have to agree that 'spoiler culture' is starting to become an annoying thing. Some of the nonsense with the Game of Thrones threads on here just feels annoying to me, and it does lead towards a suppression of any real appreciable discussion being had because everyone is too obsessed with making sure no one gets spoiled on anything, even just through inferences.

And complaining about spoilers for historical events, even if they aren't commonly known ones, is pretty silly. That's the line.

People were furious when Captain Phillips was coming and people talked about the news story openly. :lol

 

[Narag]

Where is Knights of Sydonia streaming? Don't see it on CR or Funi....

Netflix immediately after jp airing is done.

 

[Jex]

I'm not sure I'd tar the whole community with that brush. Thats probably true with the younger sub group (as its true with western film, tv and other media) but I don't think its completely true. That said as a 'new' anime watcher
i do struggle with anime beyond a certain point (I'd say pre 1990) that I never have with live action film (well silent film is a bit of a struggle). And I think for me, just like videogames, its the visuals. And so unless I have nostalgia for it (like robotech) its hard for me to get into.

I don't regularly interact with the wider anime community but I know for a fact that when people has asked the question at conventions most people only know the names of Hayo Miyazaki and maybe Anno and Gen Uro-whatever. I don't think most people are familiar with say, most of the works on this list http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347831 because why would you be in the age of online streaming? But all these works are important and worth your time. Not necessarily yours, because I don't know how many shows you've seen since you picked up the hobby, but there are plenty of people out there who only watch new stuff so they can be part of the discussion.

And yeah, some really old stuff (60's) can be really difficult to watch because of the very different expectations we have as a viewer now compared to then.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

JoJo 5

Wow, the action is really good, but this really is an exhausting series to try to marathon. And I'm having trouble caring about anything beyond the action, since it's so over-the-top and absurd.

Battle Tendency is way easier to marathon then Phantom Blood.

 

[R_thanatos]

It already did in

Spoiler

Ghostbusters 2

, remember?

No i don't.
The only think i remember from ghostbusters is the theme song music.

*her

You wouldn't know that i made a mistake if you hadn't clicked on that spoiler bar !

Spoiler

Stealth edited !

 

[Narag]

What if I told you this is really absolutely nothing compared to the amount of stupidity that comes from this show?

It's incredible. Seriously.

Interest waning.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Not my problem if other people are uncultured. I'll readily admit, not spoilering a "remastered" or "readapted" classic is a bit of a dick move but so what? The alternative is just as disgusting if not more so because people are effectively flaunting the fact that they're underachievers when it comes to internationally recognized culture. That mindset should not be acceptable.

Hey now, I've never read Monte Cristo or most of Frankenstein

 

[Narag]

Hey now, I've never read Monte Cristo or most of Frankenstein

No time like the present.

 

[A Huge Battleship]

Well then. Suffer like G did.

 

[Jex]

Hey now, I've never read Monte Cristo or most of Frankenstein

Neither have I, but I'm familiar with the Hammer Horror Adaptation! (Of Frankenstein).

 

[firehawk12]

People were furious when Captain Phillips was coming and people talked about the news story openly. :lol

In 50 years, someone is going to make the 9/11 Oculus Rift experience and people will be complaining about spoilers.

 

[Hitokage]

Hey now, I've never read Monte Cristo or most of Frankenstein

Not even the Mel Brooks rendition?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

No time like the present.

Frankenstein was too boring when I had to read it for a class in college and I don't think I'd like Monte Cristo.

I at least know the full story of the former.

 

[Jex]

Agreed. Shows like Romeo x Juliet and Gankutsuou have elements that obviously don't appear in the novel its based on and it has its own twists as well. Saying you should be free to spoil whatever the hell you want in a series because its based on something else is ridiculous. Where do you draw the line? Is there free reign on any anime adaptation of a well known (and what constitutes the definition of that) manga?

I think having common decency is a good thing in regards to spoilers. Its really not that hard to click once on some text but its a lot harder to choose to not read something that shows up on a page - especially when its without warning.

I certainly agree that airing on the side of caution is the most effective method. I don't know where to draw the line exactly, and I'm not even sure how you could even work out a method of discovering where "the line" is as it would appear to need to be worked out on a case by case basis. Beyond the obvious stuff like Rosebud and Darth Vadar, everything else is a bit...fuzzy?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Not even the Mel Brooks rendition?

That's a good question actually. I think I have seen Young Frankenstein, but I don't really remember.

 

[Dresden]

Monte Cristo is pretty shonen. Training arc, revenge, possibly underage waifu...

 

[Narag]

In 50 years, someone is going to make the 9/11 Oculus Rift experience and people will be complaining about spoilers.

United 93 to be the COD4 Mile High Club equivalent?

 

[duckroll]

I like my anime posts like I like my top-secret government documents:

Spoiler

████████

On the real though, I'm not sure, though I don't really care if there are spoilers. Yes, if you're well-read you should probably know these works, but I think many famous works that might be built on by some anime pro might not be as well known by GAF members, especially if they aren't necessarily well-read or maybe come from a place or culture where the work in question isn't perhaps as well know. I'd rather have a page full of redactions and spoiler tags if it meat not spoiling someones enjoyment.

Additionally, if there are original twist or aspects of the remake that don't mix come from he original work (take at lot of what happens in Romeo x Juliet, for example), then, even the base work is well known and largely 'unspoilerable', I still think care should be take to perhaps not spoil at least parts of the remake.

Agreed. Shows like Romeo x Juliet and Gankutsuou have elements that obviously don't appear in the novel its based on and it has its own twists as well. Saying you should be free to spoil whatever the hell you want in a series because its based on something else is ridiculous. Where do you draw the line? Is there free reign on any anime adaptation of a well known (and what constitutes the definition of that) manga?

I think having common decency is a good thing in regards to spoilers. Its really not that hard to click once on some text but its a lot harder to choose to not read something that shows up on a page - especially when its without warning.

Well that was sort of my point. I wasn't even suggesting unmarked spoilers for the new work itself, but rather the consideration of reasonable discussion and comparisons about the influence of the work.

For example if we're talking about Romeo x Juliet, the biggest questions on everyone's mind would be how faithful it would be to the original considering how different the setting and tone is. So part of the discussion about the show would be how it adapts the characters and themes, and whether certain plot elements would happen or how they might be changed. Similarly for Gankutsuou, there was a question of how far they would go in carrying over certain character traits and themes about sexuality and drug use.

I would not feel that any of these discussions have to be spoiler tagged because honestly, like Haly said, if people are that uncultured that they are not only completely unfamiliar with the original works, but they're happy to be willfully ignorant about them while consuming a remake and pretending to themselves that they're getting an original experience, not wanting others to "spoil" that experience, I think that's something which doesn't need protection at all.

The premise of my discussion point is excessive spoiler protection in this case only benefits the ignorant and uncultured, while everyone else who could otherwise be having more meaningful debate is neutered by black bars.

 

[Haly]

Monte Cristo is pretty shonen. Training arc, revenge, possibly underage waifu...

Emo brooding. Bromance...

 

[Quasar]

I don't regularly interact with the wider anime community but I know for a fact that when people has asked the question at conventions most people only know the names of Hayo Miyazaki and maybe Anno and Gen Uro-whatever. I don't think most people are familiar with say, most of the works on this list http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347831 because why would you be in the age of online streaming? But all these works are important and worth your time. Not necessarily yours, because I don't know how many shows you've seen since you picked up the hobby, but there are plenty of people out there who only watch new stuff so they can be part of the discussion.

Well some come via my early childhood (astro boy, gatchaman (well the us reversioning)), but I think maybe just as important as whats streaming is whats fansubbed.

Part of my unwillingness to tar the whole community is due to podcasts, like anime new world order, but I guess podcasters are like reviewers in terms of much more knowledgable so as to discuss things critically. And really I'm not sure lacking of knowledge/interest in foundational works is that different with anime than it is with other media.

How many here for instance could talk about say Citizen Kane without going to the internet? or have even watched it all.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Netflix immediately after jp airing is done.

Thanks brah.
Guess it hasn't updated for me yet....

 

[Narag]

How many here for instance could talk about say Citizen Kane without going to the internet? or have even watched it all.

Does playing TLOU count?

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Well then. Suffer like G did.

Is it bad I get Date a Live and Love Live! confused?

 

[Midonin]

Living for the Day After Tomorrow 07-09

I really liked this batch of episodes. The birthday one felt like a real bonding moment, and showed just what went on in Shoko's past. I don't know which American city she was staying in, but she mentioned it was one of the older ones. I do recall seeing the name "Boston" on a street sign, maybe that was it. Episode 8 was sending up the big signals. When an episode title is the same as that of the show, it's going to be important. Karada's journey into the city and her attempting to job hunt despite not really knowing how was endearing, but when she encountered the people hitting on her and the red light district looking place, that brought up some memories of chapters from books that I've read. Someone innocent seeing what the world has to offer, in all its atrocities. It never went that far, thankfully.

The sequence of events at the end of episode 9 feel like a bit much of a coincidence, but I can accept it because fiction is, in a lot of ways, predicated on coincidences. Staying at a bed and breakfast (even under an assumed name) sounds like something that would be very Karada. If you have a job that you'll love, it'll never feel like work... but it doesn't have her family. The interplay between the themes of family, maturity and romance has been played in multiple ways during these episodes, and I'm wondering how things will close off, what sort of finishing touch it's going to put on the events. Shoko's already admitted that she misses Karada - she's come to terms with herself almost entirely. But she's not here to play family counselor, even if that's what unintentionally ended up happening.

Is it bad I get Date a Live and Love Live! confused?

I find it easier to get Love Live and Love Lab confused.

 

[Narag]

Thanks brah.

I should clarify after the series airing is finished, not episode. It'll be summer when it goes up IIRC.

 

[duckroll]

Frankenstein was too boring when I had to read it for a class in college and I don't think I'd like Monte Cristo.

I at least know the full story of the former.

I think you'll actually enjoy Monte Cristo. It's pretty different from a lot of classic literature texts because it's basically the 19th century version of shounen manga. And I mean that pretty literally. It was a serialized work in a newspaper, the story is pretty pulp-ish by any measure even today's, and it's a fun adventure with tons of plot hooks (to keep people reading) and chapter cliffhangers. There's even content which felt like filler to make it stretch out longer. It's well written, and the themes in the story are a pretty good look into the sort of social discontent people of the time had in that region - reflected by the characters and events in the story, but in the end it's much more fun fluff than the average "classic".

tl;dr - Count of Monte Cristo is the Death Note of the 19th Century.

 

[Jarmel]

This is kind a kind of garbage, "look at all the anime I've watched" post, but it's pretty sweet that that the Captain Earth OP has got a bit of Cobra to it:

I'm sorry /old man

I'm not a huge fan of really old anime so references like this go by, so I'm always happy when people point stuff like this out. I thought it was a rather lame sequence but now that I know that it's a reference, it's somewhat better. I still think the OP doesn't utilize in the most effective means but it does hint at the tone the show will take, so I'll give it points on that front.

That is seriously impressive, even if it is a "LOOK AT ME!!!! I'VE SEEN SOME STUFF IN MY TIME!!!!" type post

I have to admit I was wondering what that scene was doing in there. The gun thing is the ignition for the mechs - why is it also a shooty-shooty-bang-bang type of gun in the OP? Because Cobra references, that's why!

Well considering the preview has Daichi aiming the gun when he's outside the mech, I think it also works as a normal laser gun as well. Hopefully that's the case as it might imply action sequences outside of mech combat, which could be great.

Star Driver's op1 is better, but op2 is... outside of that Shikama cut there isn't much to say about it.

As for modern-bones-robot-anime-openings, CE's op falls behind SD's op1 and Eureka Seven Ao's first opening, but better than the second intros for both. It's almost like there's a trend there.

I'll give you that, the 2nd OP is mainly a bunch of different stuff all jammed together(although very pretty stuff).

It fucking pains me to talk about AO. I literally have a frown on my face as I'm typing this post. The first OP is actually really good for AO as it encasulates a lot of the themes in the show mainly in regards to Ao chasing after his mother but also Naru bringing him back to earth, which could have been in reference to the series and referring to how Eureka doesn't matter and the audience should focus on the cast of new characters.

The 2nd OP for AO has a much stronger song behind it, because it's FLOW, but visually it falls apart as it tries to emulate the original show too much and doesn't really succeed. That said, it still pretty well put together.

God damn it.

 

[Narag]

tl;dr - Count of Monte Cristo is the Death Note of the 19th Century.

What's the Mahouka of the 19th century?

 

[Gbraga]

I don't regularly interact with the wider anime community but I know for a fact that when people has asked the question at conventions most people only know the names of Hayo Miyazaki and maybe Anno and Gen Uro-whatever. I don't think most people are familiar with say, most of the works on this list http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347831 because why would you be in the age of online streaming? But all these works are important and worth your time. Not necessarily yours, because I don't know how many shows you've seen since you picked up the hobby, but there are plenty of people out there who only watch new stuff so they can be part of the discussion.

And yeah, some really old stuff (60's) can be really difficult to watch because of the very different expectations we have as a viewer now compared to then.

Just looking at that Joe Yabuki pic already brings back so many feels. I don't even have to mention the big smile I had on my face when he showed up on 20th Century Boys.

 

[PshycoNinja]

What? Frankenstein is an awesome book. The Invisible Man is also pretty great too. Two great classics right there. Your welcome, AnimeGAF.

 

[cajunator]

Angel Beats 1-6 - So, about halfway through this. I guess its not terrible, but its kind of all over the place. It seems like its just about to transition into becoming much darker, but its hard to kind of take it seriously. And I can definitely see what people are saying about not-Haruhi, I mean, they could have kept the personality without copping the look as well.

Its a quite inconsistent show but nowhere near as bad as some say. It DOES have some laughably bad parts and animation at times but I find that charming.

Just to use this post as an opportunity to jump in, I've been thinking about these kinds of subjects lately with the recent discomfort expressed by some on the overall state of the thread, and I'd like to put in my own perspective on the matter.

AnimeGAF isn't just a reserved space for anime talk on a larger forum, it's also a defined culture derived from the people posting in it and how they post in it. Furthermore, for any defined gathering of people, the type of people you include causes exclusion of others to some extent, and the exclusion of some can promote inclusion to some extent. In other words, you need to make decisions as to what sort of gathering you want, and you can't have it all. If things get too stuffy, then people who are more interested in light-hearted discussion get alienated, while if things get too hectic and inane, then those more interested in serious discussion get alienated. Here at AnimeGAF we've tried to strike a balance that promotes critical discussion while also open to having fun, and this balance has actually been a known selling point for certain members because it offers a different environment from other possible venues for anime discussion. This balance is hardly static as old posters move on of their own accord and new posters join in with new ideas and attitudes, and as it shifts over the weeks and months then tension arises over it as they feel that if things move too far then it removes the reason why they're here in the first place.

However, I'd argue here that part of the problem is that sometimes existing posters take their own environment for granted. It's not as if new posters are inherently bad, but they might not be familiar with the expectations and they aren't being helped in meeting those. Ultimately, if you want to affect the culture of a place, then you can't just complain and expect others to do all the heavy lifting. This is something I'm not guiltless of myself, actually, but going forward I'll try to contribute more than I have.

Now, what are these expectations? I think one might say that most of it falls under engagement. If you're going to discuss something, then you need to have an actual conversation over points rather than talking past each other or shouting out into the wind. Naturally not everything can be reciprocated, and episode impressions in particular are more advertisements for engagement than engagement in their own right. Good impressions offer others a clear view of what you thought about something so they are interesting, amusing, or enlightening in their own right, and provide room for further discussion even if it never actually happens. Simply saying "I like X!" "I like Y!" "I like Z!" does not lend itself to good conversation just like "X sucks!" "NO U" doesn't offer anything of merit either. Furthermore, the idea that everything is mere opinion implies that there is never anything more to say and is antithetical to critical discussion.

Another point that people should do is be able to break things down. Some people are going to be more experienced or knowledgeable about this than others, and that's perfectly fine. What it really comes down to is being able to recognize that even if something is good as a whole, perhaps not all of its parts were. All the same, some shows can be bad as a whole, but contain elements that were good. The conversation of what these parts are, how they work overall, and why they might work or not work is the basis for critical discussion. For example, one of my favorite anime is Revolutionary Girl Utena, but I'm able to recognize a bunch of things it falls short on, and one of them is fight choreography after the first story arc. It becomes entirely phoned in and even recycles fights outright. Now, there are other things going on in the show and even during those fights, but if interesting battles are important to somebody I can easily understand why Utena would be less appealing to them as much as I think it does wonderfully otherwise. Everyone has different priorities when it comes to what entertains or interests them, but there is an entire world of substantive discussion in how shows go about fulfilling or not fulfilling those priorities.

As an aside here, it's also helpful if people are open and honest about what they care about. If literally all that matters to you is seeing cute girls, high-energy action, or whatever, then say so. To make it more constructive, also acknowledge the other aspects as well. Saying something like "This show was really sloppy, but man did it scratch that itch" is perfectly fine.

Another point I would offer is to remember that we're a community. We're not just carrying a conversation, but also sharing experiences. This is why many people want to be watching the same thing, for good or ill. If it's great, then everyone benefits with the discovery of something worth watching. If it's awful, then everyone can commiserate and reach an understanding of what caused them grief. That's why it's not inherently bad to watch shows you don't like overall--after all, some of us do have a strong sense of morbid curiosity--but if you're going to do so you should try to turn the situation into something constructive, basically as if you were doing a post-mortem. "Oh man, this sucked" might be true, but there are usually lessons to be learned from failures and they help us appreciate when things go well. It's almost like medical research where they figure out how the brain works by going over example of brains where specific aspects of it were injured and thus provide insight into the whole.

Again, the goal is to have a place where meaty discussion of anime can happen, but also leave room for people to have silly fun as well. It should be understood that the pendulum will swing a little along the way and people should have patience when others take a page or two doing something they may not find personal interest in.

It is a lot of work to keep up with this thread I agree. I just woke up to 4 new pages since I went to sleep. However I wouldnt expect it to be any different and will gladly read all of it. I feel like everyones opinion, as long as its not a PERSONAL ATTACK should be heard whether I agree or not. Even talking shit about my favorite animes Im cool with just as long as my character isnt called into question simply for watching it. thats really all I have a problem with.
In any case, to avoid one liners and give my own posts more gravity, not to mention because Im mobile a lot, I try to multiquote a whole lot and pull a lot of comments together so people who like what I post can read it or conveniently skip over it.
But as for half a page length analytical discussion, that was never and could never be my style. My thoughts are too free flowing and abrupt to ever sit down and write such a beast. However I very much appreciate those who do and dont any of you EVER think that nobody appreciates all your work.

I think it's time for me to watch another List show.

Thinking either Garzey's Wing or Yami

Guide me Corvo and AnimeGAF!

Garzeys Wing is special. Truly special. But Yami is legendary.
Cant really go wrong.

Btw I haven't been posting thoughts on Space Bros or Hajime No Ippo. But I need to say two things about the former.

It's impossible to not root for this bastard. Holy shit what a likable and relatable bastard.

also

Better love story than twilight.


I feel like this is another anime that'll make my top 10. We'll see but I'm tired of finding shit that upsets the delicate balance of Woofington's top 10 list.

Mutta is pretty awesome. The kind of guy Id buy a beer for and maybe even walk his dog. Down to earth and relatable character and a car designer. My kinda character!

Honestly, I've always seen the whole "what you like is shit" as a joke. At least I always laugh. I liked No Game No Life, but I was laughing out loud when I read this:



Btw, what kind of art style do you think would fit Fuan no Tane? I love that manga so much, and it would be awesome to get an anime.





FUCK, I'M REALLY, REALLY SORRY

No worries. You didnt intend to!
I think the "anime is shit" thing is getting old but its still pretty funny. Never take that sorta thing to heart. In the end we are all watching silly cartoons!

My avatar is an image of an Ame plushie keychain which was photoshopped into Saya because Blood-C is a great show. Stop reading into things!

I love that avatar so much. I wish it was a real plushie.

 

[Dresden]

What's the Mahouka of the 19th century?

Wuthering Heights.

 

[PshycoNinja]

I absolutely love Angel Beats! I know I am in the minority opinion on that one here though.

 

[Jarmel]

Anyway, if a work of fiction solely relies on "surprise" and being a "pure experience" to be worthwhile, then it probably wasn't a very substantial work in the first place.

I have a friend who is like that. He doesn't care about spoilers at all, for that exact reason. I honestly can't disagree with him on that, in that if a work is good only for a few twists, then there probably isn't much else there. Even shows that have a lot of heavy and major twists such as Death Note or GOT have elements there other than the twists that make re-reading/watching an enjoyable experience.

Then there is stuff like M-Night's garbage where once the twist is known, there is no pointing watching the work in the first place.

 

[Quasar]

Wuthering Heights.

Mm.

Heathcliff v Onii-sama!

 

[OceanBlue]

I don't regularly interact with the wider anime community but I know for a fact that when people has asked the question at conventions most people only know the names of Hayo Miyazaki and maybe Anno and Gen Uro-whatever. I don't think most people are familiar with say, most of the works on this list http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347831 because why would you be in the age of online streaming? But all these works are important and worth your time. Not necessarily yours, because I don't know how many shows you've seen since you picked up the hobby, but there are plenty of people out there who only watch new stuff so they can be part of the discussion.

And yeah, some really old stuff (60's) can be really difficult to watch because of the very different expectations we have as a viewer now compared to then.

I'm not particularly well-watched as far as anime goes, and I've seen almost none of the anime in that list. That being said, I've heard about a lot of those shows (especially the Dezaki ones) through anime convention-goers who either go to a lot of convention panels or host their own panels on these types of shows. The rest I've heard about on the internet lol.

I know you're not saying that every con-goer doesn't know about these types of shows, but I think it's worth mentioning that anime conventions are also places where casual fans can learn about stuff like this or other things like sakuga or storyboarding.

 

[Jex]

Part of my unwillingness to tar the whole community is due to podcasts, like anime new world order, but I guess podcasters are like reviewers in terms of much more knowledgable so as to discuss things critically. And really I'm not sure lacking of knowledge/interest in foundational works is that different with anime than it is with other media.

How many here for instance could talk about say Citizen Kane without going to the internet? or have even watched it all.

Well, Anime World Order was created by Daryl, Clarrissa and Gerald explicitly because they felt that not enough people were talking about older anime, at least from their experiences with cons and fan clubs etc. I don't have any experiences of those groups, I'm just going by what I've read and seen online.

Your comment about Citizen Kane (which I've seen, just for reference) is interesting because I think on the whole people have better film literacy than anime fans have anime literacy. Lots of people have seen the classics like Star Wars, Jaws, Indiana Jones Bond Movies (various), Alien, Back to the Future, Casablanca, The Great Escape (UK readers will understand), Die Hard, E.T., The Godfather, Rear Window, It's a Wonderful Life etc etc etc. These are works from the 90's, 80's, 70's, heck even as far back as the 50's! The reason for this, I believe, is because people have been constantly exposed to these films because of TV re-runs, friends, family, and a shared cultural knowledge that means people end up watching these films even if they don't seek out "the Classics". It's just part of everday culture.

You can't get plenty of people to watch anything from before 1994 because it "Looks Old". Most anime fans are as likely to have seen Dirty Pair as they have Battleship Potemkin.

 

[Jarmel]

You can't get plenty of people to watch anything from before 1994 because it "Looks Old".

Well I don't watch a lot of old Super Robot/scifi shows because I tend to hate the tone in them. They have a really different feel (and I don't mean the loli/moe stuff) than what comes out today. Then again, there isn't much scifi/mech anime coming out today that I like.

 

[Jex]

Well I don't watch a lot of old Super Robot/scifi shows because I tend to hate the tone in them. They have a really different feel (and I don't mean the loli/moe stuff) than what comes out today. Then again, there isn't much scifi/mech anime coming out today that I like.

That's more a matter of genre than it is the age of the work though.

I know you're not saying that every con-goer doesn't know about these types of shows, but I think it's worth mentioning that anime conventions are also places where casual fans can learn about stuff like this or other things like sakuga or storyboarding.

Which is certainly why cons that feature such panels and guests are doing a service, by informing and educating the fandom as a whole. Of course, people still have to want to learn in the first place but there's only so much that can be done!

 

[PhantomOfTheKnight]

Lupin III: Part 1 - 05

Goemon johns the cast in another neat episode. Would've been great if that final two minutes were the whole thing.

 

[cajunator]

...Somehow, it feels like a lot has happened here the past few days, and yet I feel like I've missed nothing.

Suppose that's a good thing when I'm still searching for the shows I really want to watch this season.

You can probably safely skip 90% of the stuff in this thread if you so choose.
It definitely helps to catch up. Personally Im 2 pages behind still and I have to go to work so I may fall further because Friday at work is some crazy shit.

You know whats a good movie Spirted Away.

One of my favorites. Such a vast palette of colors and textures. Some fascinating cultural references and just a really unique kind of storytelling that is highly endearing and Id even say magical.

I probably could've handled my argument better, certainly. I wasn't inferring that everyone's taste should be considered equal because it will never be that way. People have opinions and certain tastes. So naturally there is going to be a little discourse about what people do like and don't like. I think attacking a persons personal tastes on art is going overboard though. It would be more prudent to discuss why each person feels the way they do about particular art styles and animation instead of labeling someone as having "s**t taste". At that point your attacking the person and not their arguments or opinions.

Now we can argue the merit of a work of art and I would be absolutely fine with that. For example, you just made the argument for why you prefer Ping Pong's art style. My argument is a little more simple than yours and probably isn't as elegant an argument as you put forth. I am going to try however. It's the fact that I find art styles born from rotoscoping very muddled and messy. Yes we get cool animation and color contrast as a trade off but it isn't a trade off I personally like. I like sharp edges. I like defined lines. I even like the "shiny" look to certain characters in other anime. Now obviously we have to argue if the particular art style helps or hurts the anime itself and if it serves the story and characters better than another art style would have. I don't know. We will have to see more.

For example, I think the type of art style employed in The Tatami Galaxy was for it's benefit as it fit that world and character. Despite the fact that I didn't like the art in of itself. Context is everything. And that's the thing, it has to contextually make sense. I couldn't imagine Chihiyafuru being a rotoscoped anime. Neither Clannad nor FMA. But then again those anime have their unique styles to distinguish themselves. Then again, I couldn't imagine Ping Pong or Flowers of Evil in FMA or Chihiyafuru's art style.

I think it would serve this thread better to discuss the art and not boil it down to someone's personal taste. That is all I was trying to get at.

The large variety of styles is one of my favorite aspects of anime. So many directors and artists have an idea of what anime should be like and its a lot of fun seeing their interpretations. There is some truly creative stuff, like Tsuritama, and some of the stuff Shaft does that is just charmed as hell and I eat that stuff up. Its not just about "is it cute?" but a general feeling of whather it personally appeals to me. there is veryl ittle cute about Kinos Journey or Millennium Actress for example but they are shows I will defend to the death.

Her was a great movie. Better than Gravity.

To be honest, Apollo 13 was a better movie than Gravity, but Gravity is just spectacular visually. It cant really be equalled in that regard.

Good post, to say the very least. I was tempted to quote it in full, but people should just click the link and check it out if they haven't done so already. Please. It genuinely helps to think about what kind of 'Community' you wish to achieve and what your goals are and as Hitokage has invested the effort into putting pen to paper, as it were, on a subject that's literally fundamental to this entire community, then the least you can do is read the post. It shouldn't take long, although I understand that some of the posters here are not native speakers!

Now, on to the subject at hand, which is what kind of Community we wish to be a part of. I don't favour an exclusionary approach, that says people who don't share my taste or interests shouldn't be posting here, or that everyone has to write their posts to certain strict guidelines. Such "one size fits all" approaches are not suitable here. I don't care if a poster doesn't share my tastes or interests.

I just care that people are interested in having a discussion about the anime they watch. After all, if you don't talk to talk and share with others, why are you posting here? If you want to go super long form and simply expel your thoughts, then blogs exist. The idea of posting on a Forum is that everyone here has the same potential reach (in terms of influence) as anyone else because we are all equal (about from Moderators, of course). This means that people will comment on your comments and you might not always agree with them, but that's the nature of posting on a forum. You will, frequently, here from people with a different view than your own and I only hope that you will be open-minded enough to listen to what they have to say.

This means that a certain level of civility is key because how else can we show that we respect each other, even when we disagree? Without the understanding that everyone's point is equally worth considering then the whole thing falls apart. Now this puts the onus onto you to make a compelling argument for your case, because if everyone is going to read it and (potentially) comment on it then you might want to think about explaining yourself beyond simply saying "This show sucks". We all have very different backgrounds and views and levels of critical analysis so I wouldn't expect everyone to write reams of text about every show but even a short paragraph is more interesting, to me than just stating your gut response of "I disliked this".

I don't expect many, or potentially any of you to feel this way but I feel that, as a poster on a large public forum, I need to try and aim for a certain standard when discussing anime. Why? Because being an anime fan is really hard work. There's very, very few genuinely trust worthy sources when it comes to anime recommendations about what to watch and why. The quality of discourse about anime is so low that we should be aspire to raise it to help others find shows that they will love.

Nearly every source I turned to before NeoGAF to help find anime to watch was genuinely shitty and none of my friends new anything about the medium. What's worse, the traditional gatekeeper of criticism and recommendation, print, is largely silent on the subject of anime. Someone, somewhere, should try and do a better job. It's not acceptable that there's barely any blogs or podcasts about anime that are worth your time. It's rubbish, especially with the very high volume of titles that get released and how poor most of them are. How is a complete newcomer to the scene supposed to know what to watch this season without help? They'll end up watching three shitty shows and then never coming back to anime because it's "all shit". They need a hand and we can be there to help them along.

This is why we're critical. We just want to steer people towards the best of the best. We know that the talent in Japan can produce great, inspiring titles. We've seen them do it before, and no doubt we'll see them doing it again, but that's because we've watched a lot of anime. Maybe more than is healthy. But this experience breeds cynicism because we've seen 34 variations of nearly every show that's airing at the moment and many of them have been done better before. This is also why, some of us, go to great lengths in explaining why we like a certain show or episode. The craft of the director, the artist, the animator, the musician etc is something that merits discussion as it helps to explain why a show excells and why it's more worthy of your time than a very average, pedestrian show.

This isn't to say you're wrong for liking Mahouka or Black Bullet or KissxSis or Queen's Blade. That's a completely valid opinion to have and I love to hear that people are watching something they enjoy, but some of us are coming from a different background and we're expecting a certain kind of work. So we might attack something you like, but this isn't an attack on you but the work itself. You might not be watching for the same reasons as me, and that's also fine. You just want some light entertainment for 20 or so minutes? That's great, I feel that way a great deal of the time myself! Or perhaps what I view as light fluff you care about seriously. That's cool too, I'm always interested in hearing why someone thinks differently to me as it's usually quite revealing. What's also important about this matter is not forming sub-tribes within the thread with an "us" vs "them" mentality. I know this is practically impossible for humans not to do but it's really unhelpful behaviour. This comes to what I mentioned earlier about viewing all posts as being potentially equal and respecting one another's opinions.

Let's also not forget the fact that the whole Western Anime community also has practically no interest in the history of the medium at all. Why does this matter? Because even though there's only two things airing this season that you'll like I'd imagine that, with knowledge of your preferences, I can recommend you over a dozen truly amazing older titles. This is why it's so important that those with knowledge of older titles share their experiences and views about these works because there's so many of them worth seeing. Most of the biggest one's helped to shape the titles that are airing today and outside of those genre defining classics there's literally hundreds of shows worth watching. Anime did not begin in 1995 and I'm happy to tell you that there's so many good titles to watch that you won't even have time to see them all.

So yeah, I know that I can put in some effort to bring my level of posting up a few notches. I will aim to do so from now on because not only do I love anime but I also love to help people find shows that they'll like too. I can only do that by talking to everyone hear and learning from them what they like and why because I don't have time to watch every anime, track down every old show or see the latest showing of a movie in Japan. We can help each other to find works that we wouldn't have known about on our own, and isn't that a great thing?

But it all starts with building a place where people want to have that kind of discourse and where people trust and respect the views of others. A venue for genuinely interesting and insightful discussion about a much-maligned medium. A place that other people want to be apart of and would hope to emulate. I don't think it's idealistic to think that we can achieve that goal. It just takes some work.

Im just quoting you to let you know I do enjoy your discussions and thoughts about anime and the more old school way of viewing it. I respect that. I grew up with that.
However there is also a new generation of fans with a different perspective and its only fair for us to include those views and to accept that sometimes people ARE looking for silly harem stuff and specific things in anime. I definitely look for those things, but what I recommend depends largely on what a person wants to see. I wont recommend School Days if osmeone is looking for Kinos Journey.

 

[darkside31337]

Well, Anime World Order was created by Daryl, Clarrissa and Gerald explicitly because they felt that not enough people were talking about older anime, at least from their experiences with cons and fan clubs etc. I don't have any experiences of those groups, I'm just going by what I've read and seen online.

Your comment about Citizen Kane (which I've seen, just for reference) is interesting because I think on the whole people have better film literacy than anime fans have anime literacy. Lots of people have seen the classics like Star Wars, Jaws, Indiana Jones Bond Movies (various), Alien, Back to the Future, Casablanca, The Great Escape (UK readers will understand), Die Hard, E.T., The Godfather, Rear Window, It's a Wonderful Life etc etc etc. These are works from the 90's, 80's, 70's, heck even as far back as the 50's! The reason for this, I believe, is because people have been constantly exposed to these films because of TV re-runs, friends, family, and a shared cultural knowledge that means people end up watching these films even if they don't seek out "the Classics". It's just part of everday culture.

You can't get plenty of people to watch anything from before 1994 because it "Looks Old".

I don't think thats quite true. It really comes down to is accessibility. Popular older series are easy to (legally) find. The ones that weren't are pretty much impossible to find. It's much easier to find older titles in other mediums, not so much with anime for reasons that don't have anything to do with desire in watching shows.

Most shows from before the late 1980s were never subbed through traditional legal means or through fansubs. That really isn't an issue with American cinema or novels where pretty much everything of note has both been archived and translated for folks to consume.

I mean really it makes sense for older shows to not be popular within the English speaking anime community as a whole. Imagine if there were essentially no books available in English until the 1980s. How many older titles would never get translated? How large of an audience would there be for things we consider classics?



Also yeah shit from back then looks too old. Fuck old shit!

 

[Mr.Jeff]

I still feel a bit sad when somebody gets especially insulted when somebody criticizes a work they enjoy. Passion can bring forth loads of things, but in this case it's primarily negative. Constructive discussion might stem from it but more often than not it boils down to people seeing it as personal attacks. I've seen it happen a couple of times in here.

Also I already know that when somebody with a persona tells me "this show is amazing" that I'll take it with a pile of salt because it probably means "it had [blank] so I loved it"

A large problem that people seem to have is correctly contextualising their posts. Blanket statements (taken as an example and not targeting specifically) "Clannad + AS is the greatest anime ever made" tend to raise people's hackles.
Having personal preferences is fine but broadly declaiming something to be perfect or the greatest of all time generates a lot of either positive or negative interest which leads to some pretty childish back and forth without any attempts at discourse.

Of course, it's also not helped that people's personal favourites tend to not to be viewed objectively by the viewer so when issues are raised about aspects of it's production or such, the tendency is to lash out.
One of my all time favourites series is Mushishi and it used to routinely annoy me that it suffered criticism that it had no overall arching plot. These days, it's more of a point of discussion than an immediate retort of "well your face has no over-arching plot!!1"
It's only through experience that you learn to consider alternate viewpoints like this and either formulate a counter argument or accept a shows failings and say "I accept this isn't right but it it doesn't detract from my own opinion of this".