Holy fuck that makes all the sense in the world
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Wonder Woman has surpassed Suicide Squad and BvS domestic Box Office
- Thread starter Slayven
- Start date
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
That's what Suicide Squad is, which is still criticized a lot more than Marvel movies for making no sense, but not as much as BvS.
dragonbane
Member
So very happy for this. Movie was genuinely thoughtful and great
Solid SOAP
Member
Because it's fun and the movies don't take themselves too seriously? They're not meant to be. DC is the brand that wants to be taken seriously, thus is looked at with higher expectations for dramatic and meaningfully storytelling, especially after they've proven that they're able to do so.
I'm truly not trying to engage in some Marvel vs. DC battle. I actually prefer DC (Well, I like Batman and don't really read much else in the way of comics, haha) and think they have more potential. I'm happy you liked BvS, but I felt that it was awful. I really wished I liked it as much as you did, because Batman is my favorite comic book hero.
However, it's upsetting to me to see their greatest heroes given such superficial treatment, imo, as in their latest films, when DC have the ability to use their characters in meaningful and thought provoking ways.
As much as I hate Snyder's work, it's difficult to argue that he is an auteur with an easily identifiable style. Although the final product leaves a lot to be desired, I really understand where people like you are coming from with their ardent defense of the film. The film brings up subjects that few other mainstream comic movies usually try to bring up, such as the ramifications of "super hero" collateral damage and how a former "hero" may eventually become burnt out what that may mean for his or her brand of "herosim."
The problem is that it brings these topics up... and does nothing with them. The foundation of a CBM film universe takes center stage before any meaningful story-telling in this film, which is more problematic in a film such as this one as opposed to a Marvel film, because the latter aims to appeal to a broad audience with fun and swashbuckling romps, meanwhile DC takes pride in its "darkness" and presents a film that's more pseudo-intellectual than actually thought provoking. One minute BvS wants us to pause and contemplate the damage a real-life hero may cause, and the next it wants us to revel in that violence as we watch them battle a giant ogre! It's hypocritical, ultimately, and makes for a viewing experience that feels superficial and bloated.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I know people are disbelieving of the notion that WB threw a bunch of money at Whedon to get him to help on their Cinematic Universe - but they did. Like - he's there. Helping. He's obviously being paid by Warners. He's on their payroll. He's in charge of Justice League now. He's making Batgirl later. He's helping.
NOW:
I'm not saying he's reshooting all of Justice League. Or that he grabbed the wheel and told Snyder to get in the backseat and shut up. He's not remaking the movie in his image or whatever. But I am saying this more like a Tony Gilroy on Rogue One sorta situation. That movie is still Gareth Edwards. And Edwards still gets the credit. When that movie just won a Saturn Award, Gilroy didn't go up and get the statue - Edwards did. Because Edwards directed the film. He got the shots, he established the tone, and he delivered the footage. That he was helped in post, that his vision was tweaked/shifted - that doesn't mean he didn't do the work.
Will people, if & when Justice League comes out and is a fun, funny, heroic team adventure, be inclined to credit everything to Whedon? Of course. And people are going to get annoyed and wade into the fray to make sure everyone understands thats not the case. I'll probably do it myself to some extent. But while not being super-happy to see that headache on the horizon is understandable, denying that Whedon's involvement isn't considerable isn't going to change that weather, either.
Whedon has been working on that project for about four months now, and will still be working on it up until it releases in November. That's a considerable investment of time and energy. It's not going to be so easily discounted. But it's also not going to erase Snyder's involvement.
I don't know how you can say the films brings up these things and never does anything about them. I mean look at the collateral damage in MOS, it was a huge part of it. A lot of the people in MOS saw Superman as a hero because they saw the aliens that had threatened the earth were taken down by by Superman. However in BVS the film starts with you seeing how other people were shocked and scared as 9/11 on steroids was taking place outside of their buildings and you get a good idea as to why Batman would be pissed. The film then literally talks about how Superman is a subject of debate where people aren't sure what to make of him and his role in the world. The film then explores this through 4 characters. Superman who is trying to find his place in the world trying to do what he feels is right as a journalist or as Superman, Senator Finch who is pretty much Pontius Pilate and trying to be somewhat fair to him and trying to understand him, Lex who is having an existential breakdown and is actively trying to change the public and political narrative about Superman, and Bruce who is being manipulated and actively chooses not to see sense. Also considering how a common complaint was that the film was boring and had too much talking maybe they should have had less talking about the role of Superman in the world and less fighting ogres!
1) I have heard people say that Crossbones was not hired by Zemo and it was just him exploiting the incident. If that was the case then the inciting incident had nothing to do with Zemo. I always thought he was cos if he didn't then the whole flushing Bucky out would not have made sense. I always thought Zemo paid Crossbones for all its worth. But anyhow if Zemo knew the Avengers would come it's kind of lucky the Avengers were not able to contain the explosion
2) How can you argue Cap didn't want failsafes? What do you think was in those accords? He didn't even give it the time of day to talk about it let alone read it or try to work within it.
3) How can you say Luthor added nothing more. Luthor clearly started tipping the scale of public opinion. Superman saving people of boats is all well and dandy but when him saving people destabilises regions by causing power vacuums then people might start asking why are you doing and what may be the fallout of what you are doing. Do you want Swanwick to walk up to Superman and hand him the Nairomi Accords or whatever so you can understand it? The bullets were there to coerce the govt to going along with his plan. The govt would rather blame Superman for causing a power vacuum than it getting out they launched a drone strike on innocent people or that people armed with prototype military hardware from a govt contractor were engaging in shit that destabilised the region and the US govt were to blame as said by Swanwick
4) The bombing of the Senate building was the incident that pushed Batman over the edge. Oh and i agree he never did any manipualting, leading breadcrumbs for Batman to follow and sending letters to Clark about the side effects of "his actions" is him doing nothing at all. So framing Bucky makes perfect sense as Zemo being a master manipulator but framing Batman, and Clark for the unexpected effects of their actions caused by Lex is not doing anything. Sure buddy.
I am more than fair. I just apply the same scrutiny to CW as a lot of people apply to BVS and if it comes across as reaching it's because I have heard some truly dumb complaints that could be copied and pasted from BVS to CW and only changing the character name and adding stuff e.g
Black panther/
Batman
Superman for the Africa incident
(World's greatest detective)
or Civil War
(BVS)
(Ogre)
JigglesBunny
Banned
You make a good film, it makes money. Who'd have thunk?
Lokimaru
Member
From what I've seen so far Superman's the abatross around the DCEU's neck.
He's really been the main complaint about the universe. People just aren't connecting with this version of Superman and I really don't think it's his fault. People haven't really been exposed to Superman as Superman really is in years. He's just a dude who just happens to be a super powerful alien and that's what Man of Steel was trying to show. Superman has always been a man of few words with Clark as his mouthpiece. When Clark speaks that Superman giving you his two cents just like BvS show but "No one wants to see Clark Kent taking on The Batman".
He's really been the main complaint about the universe. People just aren't connecting with this version of Superman and I really don't think it's his fault. People haven't really been exposed to Superman as Superman really is in years. He's just a dude who just happens to be a super powerful alien and that's what Man of Steel was trying to show. Superman has always been a man of few words with Clark as his mouthpiece. When Clark speaks that Superman giving you his two cents just like BvS show but "No one wants to see Clark Kent taking on The Batman".
MegaManTrigger
Banned
I don't know how it "made sense" that Crossbones was working for Zemo. Zemo showed disdain for HYDRA when he tortured one of their soldiers, and had no problems killing him (he even says that "HYDRA deserves its place on the ash heap. So your death would not bother me"). Not to mention, the entire event in Nigeria was about Crossbones creating a diversion, stealing a biological weapon in order to draw out Steve Rogers and ultimately kill him as revenge for what happened in Winter Soldier. Zemo and Crossbones had nothing to do with each other and had completely different goals in mind for what they wanted to accomplish (killing Steve vs. destroying the Avengers from within).
Furthermore, how is the mess at Nigeria lucky? The Avengers being unable to contain the explosion is a culmination of what the Sokovia Accords were all about: The Avengers inability to minimize as much collateral damage as possible and disregarding borders to different countries. There was the Battle of Sokovia, Battle of New York, the Helicarrier Crash in D.C., and so on, which is enough of a sample size to show that the Avengers had an issue with collateral damage, which in turn, created the basis for the Sokovia Accords.
That's not what I said. I said Cap didn't want accountability without failsafes in place to ensure that he's able to do his job, and that another HYDRA-S.H.I.E.L.D. event wouldn't happen again. Multiple times throughout the film he's referenced that working under the Accords could limit his job, be forced to work under someone's agenda rather than for the greater good.
Actually he did try to work within it during his conversation with Tony. He refused to once he heard that Tony Stark was basically keeping Wanda Maximoff under internment, which confirmed that Tony is operating under guilt and self-preservation rather than doing what's right (though that's not to say that Rogers didn't have his own flaws either which is what made the conflict compelling).
Classic Bleepey (counter)argument where you assume it's an understanding problem when it has nothing to do with that at all.
Clark's own presence tipped the scales before Luthor could do anything, especially during Man of Steel as people (both close to Clark and throughout the world upon Zod's arrival) were mixed in coming to terms with an alien that held more power than anyone could ever dream of. There was also the end scene in Man of Steel where Swanwick was skeptical of Superman's motivations considering he knew he could break borders at any time. And yet, Superman left it up to him to convince Washington that he will operate not only under America's interests, but also for global interests. So when it comes to BvS Luthor actually didn't add anything, especially when the situation was already volatile. As for the bullets, that still doesn't make any semblance of sense to blame Superman for that when he doesn't even brandish a weapon.
No, this is what you're doing:
Trying hard to force similarities between the two films when both have different ideas for the hero vs. hero conflict story. Even the way you force similarities in characters make no sense. Superman is getting blamed for different reasons that Bucky is, Black Panther has his own motivations for going after Bucky vs. Batman who perceives to do things for the greater good of mankind. Also are you admitting that Batman didn't investigate as thoroughly as he should have? (which is lolworthy considering how much you have defended Batman's inability to investigate).
As for Luthor, if he was really manipulating things, then why did it take him to literally force Superman to fight Batman to get anything done?
Even Luthor's own plans doesn't even fit the definition of manipulation. I didn't say Zemo is a master manipulator, but at least he knew how to play both sides into doing what he wanted, unlike Luthor who wasted time and effort doing redundant things that didn't influence anyone until Superman was forced to fight.
I liked the movie, but I wish I had watched it before seeing the "Born Sexy Yesterday" video on youtube because that's all I could think about in certain scenes (such as when she saw snow for the first time, or when she went shopping) and it stopped me from liking it more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0thpEyEwi80&t=7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0thpEyEwi80&t=7s
I know I shouldn't even bother, but I just have to ask.
Do you find it odd or notable...does it phase you in any way that, of you and the people who respond to your posts, the only person who thinks your criticism is 'fair' is you and you alone?
I didn't see the problematic elements of the trope in the film (ie women being talked down to and treated like an infant, because they practically are infant minds in women's bodies). The point of that video is promoting equality namely in the subject of sex, intelligence and love, which I feel the film displays pretty well. I didn't really see the reaction to snow or Diana trying on period clothes was a disservice to her character, but maybe you could elaborate on that.
The stated takeaway from the video is supposed to be: "innocence is NOT sexy, knowledge and experience on the other hand, THAT'S sexy". That's more a message to Hollywood than a factual statement since more film/tv scripts skew towards the former, but I think WW blends both innocence and experience to create a really relatable and empowering character, and the audience can feel that Diana and Steve's chemistry is founded on respect, not a imbalance of power.
broncobuster
Banned
Yup. I think it's important not to treat every fish out of water story about a woman as born sexy yesterday. That just makes the actual issues with it murky. And thankfully Wonder Woman deftly avoids those problems.
That's your opinion. I was much happier with the flawed Snyder vision than with the Marvel template with DC characters that was WW.
IrishNinja
Member
no no this is like empirically proven facts m'man, peer-reviewed scientific journals documented putting BvS under super-resolution microscopes and found - to no ones surprise - it was composed of largely dookie matter molecules
the "marvel template" - allowing humor, filming in a full spectrum of colors, permitting heroes to actually act like heroes and occasionally seem to enjoy their abilities - might strike you as "safer" but that's only because it's less likely to give you pink eye
have a care b 4 insulting ur king
"After exactly one month in theaters, Wonder Woman has passed the $700 million mark worldwide. The movie took in another $15.57 million in the US this weekend, putting it well past Batman v Superman and Suicide Squads 90 day totals in just a fraction of the time. Internationally, the movie has made over $360 million for a global gross of $708 million."
elrechazado
Banned
I love how the government literally nuked new York, but then complains about new York collateral damage by the avengers. It's how the government would work in real life.I don't know how it "made sense" that Crossbones was working for Zemo. Zemo showed disdain for HYDRA when he tortured one of their soldiers, and had no problems killing him (he even says that "HYDRA deserves its place on the ash heap. So your death would not bother me"). Not to mention, the entire event in Nigeria was about Crossbones creating a diversion, stealing a biological weapon in order to draw out Steve Rogers and ultimately kill him as revenge for what happened in Winter Soldier. Zemo and Crossbones had nothing to do with each other and had completely different goals in mind for what they wanted to accomplish (killing Steve vs. destroying the Avengers from within).
Furthermore, how is the mess at Nigeria lucky? The Avengers being unable to contain the explosion is a culmination of what the Sokovia Accords were all about: The Avengers inability to minimize as much collateral damage as possible and disregarding borders to different countries. There was the Battle of Sokovia, Battle of New York, the Helicarrier Crash in D.C., and so on, which is enough of a sample size to show that the Avengers had an issue with collateral damage, which in turn, created the basis for the Sokovia Accords.
That's not what I said. I said Cap didn't want accountability without failsafes in place to ensure that he's able to do his job, and that another HYDRA-S.H.I.E.L.D. event wouldn't happen again. Multiple times throughout the film he's referenced that working under the Accords could limit his job, be forced to work under someone's agenda rather than for the greater good.
Actually he did try to work within it during his conversation with Tony. He refused to once he heard that Tony Stark was basically keeping Wanda Maximoff under internment, which confirmed that Tony is operating under guilt and self-preservation rather than doing what's right (though that's not to say that Rogers didn't have his own flaws either which is what made the conflict compelling).
Classic Bleepey (counter)argument where you assume it's an understanding problem when it has nothing to do with that at all.
Clark's own presence tipped the scales before Luthor could do anything, especially during Man of Steel as people (both close to Clark and throughout the world upon Zod's arrival) were mixed in coming to terms with an alien that held more power than anyone could ever dream of. There was also the end scene in Man of Steel where Swanwick was skeptical of Superman's motivations considering he knew he could break borders at any time. And yet, Superman left it up to him to convince Washington that he will operate not only under America's interests, but also for global interests. So when it comes to BvS Luthor actually didn't add anything, especially when the situation was already volatile. As for the bullets, that still doesn't make any semblance of sense to blame Superman for that when he doesn't even brandish a weapon.
No, this is what you're doing:
Trying hard to force similarities between the two films when both have different ideas for the hero vs. hero conflict story. Even the way you force similarities in characters make no sense. Superman is getting blamed for different reasons that Bucky is, Black Panther has his own motivations for going after Bucky vs. Batman who perceives to do things for the greater good of mankind. Also are you admitting that Batman didn't investigate as thoroughly as he should have? (which is lolworthy considering how much you have defended Batman's inability to investigate).
As for Luthor, if he was really manipulating things, then why did it take him to literally force Superman to fight Batman to get anything done?
Even Luthor's own plans doesn't even fit the definition of manipulation. I didn't say Zemo is a master manipulator, but at least he knew how to play both sides into doing what he wanted, unlike Luthor who wasted time and effort doing redundant things that didn't influence anyone until Superman was forced to fight.
It is also the highest-grossing solo superhero movie to ever be shown in Brazil. (and that is 1 million brazilian moneys, not dollars)
Gabriel_Logan
Member
BvS was the biggest colossal fuckup since Stalingrad.
greendomo's ghost
Member
I want to believe you, but I don't know if Whedon has that much wiggle room. From everything I've read, Edwards shot a ton more footage than was used for Rogue One, and in a much more fluid, off the cuff way. I just don't think Snyder would've provided enough alternate takes or scenes for Whedon to change course in any huge way. Unless the reshoots are more substantial than have been reported.
1. WW isn't following a Marvel template, more like a Superman/Spiderman template.
2. Even if it was 100% Marvel it would be better than the "flawed vision" of Snyder. Remember when he killed Jimmy Olsen in the first 5 minutes of BvS? Jesus christ.
Say all you want about Marvel, no stakes and whatever but at least the filmmakers behind these movies usually understand that characters come first. People don't go to see Avengers to see Iron Man, they go to see Tony Stark.
There are no characters in the Snyder DCEU.
Suicide Squad of all things is the first movie to bring something close to real characters in the DCEU, in part thanks to good actors like Will Smith, Margot Robbie, Joel Kinnaman and Viola Davis. Hell I'll take El fucking Diablo over Superbland any day. That's how bad it is.
Anyways really glad for Wonder Woman. First superhero movie in a decade with heart and able to truly inspire. Can't wait for the sequel.
2. Even if it was 100% Marvel it would be better than the "flawed vision" of Snyder. Remember when he killed Jimmy Olsen in the first 5 minutes of BvS? Jesus christ.
Say all you want about Marvel, no stakes and whatever but at least the filmmakers behind these movies usually understand that characters come first. People don't go to see Avengers to see Iron Man, they go to see Tony Stark.
There are no characters in the Snyder DCEU.
Suicide Squad of all things is the first movie to bring something close to real characters in the DCEU, in part thanks to good actors like Will Smith, Margot Robbie, Joel Kinnaman and Viola Davis. Hell I'll take El fucking Diablo over Superbland any day. That's how bad it is.
Anyways really glad for Wonder Woman. First superhero movie in a decade with heart and able to truly inspire. Can't wait for the sequel.
Insane Metal
Gold Member
broncobuster
Banned
Passed Deadpool and entered the top ten superhero movies domestic.
It is 100M Brazilian Reals. About $31M USD.
That's pretty cool of them.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
How much would the studio end up pulling from that? 12-15mil?
Fast Forward
Member
Unsurprising. Deliver a good movie, and SHOCKER, people show up.
Just confirms Diana should be the Iron Man of the DCEU going forward.
Just confirms Diana should be the Iron Man of the DCEU going forward.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Ridiculous in what sense? CHris Hemsworth and Chris Evans pulled in 200-300k (excluding bonuses) of salary for their first Marvel movies (Thor & Captain America: The First Avenger). As for people in the DC Universe, it was reported from sources that Cavill pulled in a 6-figure salary whereas Amy Adams pulled a 7-figure salary. Seems like salary is tied to actor branding (or lack thereof in Gadot, Evans, and Hemsworth's cases prior to the MCU explosion).
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Who could have foreseen that a movie that's not a turd can make a nice chunk of change? Maybe this time, the right lessons will be learned. Maybe.
Fast Forward
Member
People keep complaining about Gal's salary are focusing on the wrong thing here. Trust me, Gal will make BANK going forward, and this has made her career. The landmark, or career making role is often not the highest money maker for any star in the business, female, male, or otherwise.
To me, the much bigger problem here is that if DCEU has any brains, they'll make Diana their Iron Man. Fuck Batman. Fuck Superman. Wonder Woman is the star, and honestly, as much as I truly like the MCU, having a woman be the centerpiece/leader of their Universe would a great way for the DCEU to set itself apart from the MCU.
To me, the much bigger problem here is that if DCEU has any brains, they'll make Diana their Iron Man. Fuck Batman. Fuck Superman. Wonder Woman is the star, and honestly, as much as I truly like the MCU, having a woman be the centerpiece/leader of their Universe would a great way for the DCEU to set itself apart from the MCU.
Guy Legend
Member
She'll get her dues for the sequel, just like others.
Ignoring that you're oversimplificating this plotpoint to the point of inaccuracy and the fact that the government agents you are referring to have long ago been revealed to be Hydra, aka the modern Nazi supervillains of the MCU, why are you saying that sarcastically? Governments shift the blame of their actions to scapegoats all the goddamn time. It is how they work in real life.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The attempt by someone to compare BVS to Civil War is really silly. Particularly, claiming that both movies end with a big playfight. Except that the ending of BVS has a villain introduced in the last minute practically, and CW's villain is the same as it's been the entire movie, and the entire movie has been building up to it.
hodayathink
Member
Also, WB had little enough faith in this movie/her that they only signed her through Justice League. They're going to have to pay her as soon as they make Wonder Woman 2. Same with Patty Jenkins, as long as they bring her back.
MugiwaraCole
Member
Remember when people said this couldn't happen because no one knows who Wonder Woman is?
Good times.
Good times.
Fast Forward
Member
Even than, as GOTG should have shown, as long as you give the public entertaining movie, they'll come.
Didn't we go thru it in another thread, where each lead was only paid something like 200k thru 500k for Marvel for their first flick. Then made mad bank following, where each is getting 7 figures, on top for Scarlet and Downey into 8 Figures.
Gal is going to be seeing at least a high 7, if not 8 figure payday for WW2
ratcliffja
Member
Why are we talking about Spider-Man?
MrMephistoX
Member
Ridiculously happy about this news. Hope Homecoming slays as well just to,prove a point that the super hero genre can thrive upon storylines with heart and without world ending events.